Change Management:Marx and Muslims

Re: # 284

Tahmed Sahib:

You took my comment more seriously than it was intended. I know you are good man too.

Anil

Tahmed sahib,

Claiming to be a descendant of the Prophet does note seem to be a crime or anti-Muslim thing to do, unless of course such a claim was false. But yes, if someone claims a special privilege becuase he was a descendant of the Prophet it may not be very kosher. But I don`t think NT has claimed any such thing.

Regards

Re: # 282 by bjkumar

As far as reading the Quran is concerned, it may be a while before I can get around to it.

For your sake, I do hope the day comes sooner than later. Meanwhile you`re free to run circles around your misconceptions, ill-presumptions, and lack of reason.

:-)~~

anil #273 I think sir my post to ntsyed reaffirms what I wrote earlier. I am certainly not asking you or any other hindu or non-muslim to convert to Islam, nor have I ever done so on chowk. And I am sure you are a good man in real life (as I hope all of us on chowk are, despite our differences) and wish you the best in this life and the next. :-)

ntsyed #281 I see that you ignore the central point I made - namely that by claiming that you are a descendant of the prophet you are violating the Quranic injunction of the equality of all individuals before God and thus making yourself a kaffir. And instead move on to raise other issues and to offer apologies for labelling me a mirzai.

While I appreciate the conciliatory and civilized tone of your post, this omission makes the rest of your post essentially an exercise in beating around the bush. But, nevertheless, I have no problem with a civilized discussion on chowk even if it means ignoring the central issue and instead moving to other issues. So here is my response to the rest of what you write:

You ask me to point out to you the place the Quranic distinction between ``those destined for hell and those destined for heaven`` This is like asking someone to point out where in the Pakistan Code of Criminal Procedure is there a distinction between those destined for jail and those destined to be free men!! So, please get serious.

As for the various distinctions you draw: The Quran makes it clear in a number of ways there is only one overarching distinction - those who do the right thing and those who do not. Thus, e.g., the Quran makes it clear that it is only ONE of MANY messages that God has sent to ALL mankind. That it reveals nothing that has not already been revealed to Moses. That it is merely the ``Arabic Quran`` (as it modestly refers to itself), meant for a people who are unfamiliar with languages in which the message has already been revealed. And (as in Surah Baqarah) that you can be of any religion (i.e. not necessarily a muslim) and have nothing to fear for the Judgement Day.

So, it is crystal clear, not ``clear like mud`` in the fact that it does not consider muslims to be a special people by any means. Indeed, the Quran is most stern in its admonishments when it refers to those who think of themselves as a ``chosen people`` or as people who can serve as some kind of intermediaries with God (thus rejecting priesthoods, momins, and so forth).

Finally, you write ``I hope you`ll respond very soon, because if I AM on the wrong path then you will be held accountable for not showing me the correct one.``

You are dead wrong here: You, not I, will be held accountable for your going on the wrong path. This is the central message of individual responsibility to God that the rogues in Pakistan (and indeed rogues through the ages in all societies) have so clevely subverted in their quest to place themselves as ``religious leaders``, momins, aalims, pirs and yes - syeds - and so forth as they seek to use religion to gain power or status in Pakistan!! These are the rogues who have arrogated to themselves a position that was explicitly denied in the Quran to the prophet himself!! the Quran explicitly tells the prophet that his role is that of messenger only, and implementation is not his concern - that is a matter between the individual and God. I have responded to your post out of my free choice, and could have ignored your post altogether. If this central issue requires further clarification, then please take a fresh look at the Quran, unburdened by the general impression prevailing in Pakistan.

#276 NTSyed

NTSyed sahib,

Perhaps I was too strong in some of my words in #269. If so, sorry about that. (So, please stop marinating your hairs of beard with layers of tears.)

(1) The stone analogy was figurative - I have no access to your exact Rockwell number.

(2) I stand by every aspersion, if any, ever inflicted on the members of your religion who are carrying out the sordid deeds mentioned in #269!!

It appears that you ARE weaseling out to all my questions in #269 - perhaps for understandable reasons - you lack any meaningful answers - and unlike dear Yasser, have not stooped to the lawyerly-low of digging into sources that belong into despicable characters` poop tanks - all of that simply to assuage the pulverized pride of Pakistanis!

Poor Pakistanis - those poor, poor, Pakistanis!

As far as reading the Quran is concerned, it may be a while before I can get around to it.

First things first.

Pahle chowk puran - phir Quran!

Re: # 279 by krishna_abcd

Again, you don`t HAVE to speak if you don`t know what is being said and why. Becuase then you make foolish statements like ``If only Allah could talk louder, he would not need these messengers.``

dear abcd, one needs to tune his/her ears properly to hear Allah. HE sent those messengers (peace be upon them) to help the humanity tune up these. Some availed the opportunity and others remained belligerents. Then HE left the books for us for this purpose, some still remain belligerents and can`t hear anything.

Therefore, if you knew the proper use of your ears, and its coordination with your brain, you wouldn`t ask me the questions you have. Please don`t take me wrong, yours may be valid questions, but you only need to study Quran and Sunnah to obtain a much more satisfactory answers and have not just your ears but all five senses tuned to hear HIM loud and clear.

I hope you can demonstrate more courage than some of your compatriots here. Are you up to the challenge of your lifetime? I hope so.


:-)~~

Re: # 278 by krishna_abcd

dear American Born Confused Desi,

You don`t HAVE to speak if you don`t understand the context of what is being said and why it is being said, lest you make a fool of yourself.

Following is a quick analysis of your post, if you care to learn something.

DEFLECTION - Anger comes from fear. Ask yourself - what are you afraid of?

OBFUSCATION / FACE-SAVING due to ABSOLUTE CONFUSION –
ntsyed #255:
As such if you had been reading what you wrote, with a sincere self-assessment you`d notice that the Holmes quote applies more to you than the one you addressed. masadi was pouring more light on your mind to expand your knowledge, yet your brain contracted to produce the personal insults at him.

Do let us know when you`re able to comprehend the aforementioned phenomenon. But please do so without displaying your vulgar and profane colors if you wish to be heard.

abcd #278:
So if I think that mountains are not preventing earthquakes, and the Koran does not talk about the General or the Special Theories of relativity then I am not doing sincere self-assessment?

Yes. I need people like Masadi and you to expand my knowledge. Knowledge in what? Quantum mechanics? :)

Is that what happens when the brain ``contracts``?

Which phenomenon? The Aurora Borealis?

I think you’d have understood the context much better without breaking up the comments the way you did, because all you’ve done in this instance is avoid speechlessness through the aforementioned classification. Then again, that may have remained your only choice.

abcd: Vulgar and profane colors! Ouch! Now what colors would those be? :)

See bjkumar and arjun_m’s recent posts for further enhancement of your knowledge.

:-)~~

Re: #267 by ntsyed

[I`m glad to hear that you at least believe in the Judgement Day. ]

Umm. I have a question. On ``Judgement Day``, is it like daylight all the time, or a soft comforting glow all around? Kinda like halogen lamps. And is Allah going to be sitting on a throne? Does he have a beard, or is he clean shaven? I`m guessing smoking, drinking etc. are not allowed. How about women? Will there be good-looking ones? Robes, eh? Nothing see-through, I`m presuming. Not much fun, I guess. But then it`s judgement day. Hmmm. I`m guessing pot is out of the question.

[I`m sure you haven`t missed that part of the Quran along with numerous Orders from Allah to emulate Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and obey him (PBUH) just as thy obey ALLAH, if thy wish to attain HIS Pleasure. ]

Emulate how? Marry little kids? Daughter-in-law? You`re not being very clear.

If only Allah could talk louder, he would not need these messengers.

Re: #255 by ntsyed

[[krishna_abcd: I am honestly baffled.]

Your statement is one of the first symptoms of ``disbelief`` and one of the first ``consequences`` of a closed-up narrow mind. You don`t believe in yourself, do you BOY? ]


Anger comes from fear. Ask yourself - what are you afraid of?


[Poeple who cannot hear anything are called `deaf`, and people who cannot hear themselves are called dee-you-emm-be ``DUMB``? ]
Thanks for that piece of erudition.

:)


[As such if you had been reading what you wrote, with a sincere self-assessment you`d notice that the Holmes quote applies more to you than the one you addressed.]

So if I think that mountains are not preventing earthquakes, and the Koran does not talk about the General or the Special Theories of relativity then I am not doing sincere self-assessment?

:-)


[ masadi was pouring more light on your mind to expand your knowledge]

Yes. I need people like Masadi and you to expand my knowledge. Knowledge in what? Quantum mechanics? :)


[yet your brain contracted to produce the personal insults at him. ]

Is that what happens when the brain ``contracts``?


[Do let us know when you`re able to comprehend the aforementioned phenomenon.]

Which phenomenon? The Aurora Borealis?


[But please do so without displaying your vulgar and profane colors if you wish to be heard. ]

Vulgar and profane colors! Ouch! Now what colors would those be? :)

Re: # 274 by arjun_m

You may remember me telling someone not too long ago that I neither have a use for you nor the large cattle femur you desperately want stuck sideways in your throat. Your uninvited response to that was a suggestion for me to go blow myself up somewhere.

Well...here I am, Bubba... and you`ve already been blown up inside out ;-)~~

Now do you see what ignorance and jealousy does to people like yourself? Oops....but you can`t see...you just a had secondary explosion inside your skull, didn`t you Boy.

Awww... you sorry sod!

:)~~

Re: # 269 by bjkumar

hmmmm....

questions, rants, parroting of baseless mainstream media propaganda, underlined apologies for the US administration`s misadventures, personal insults, profanity, and beligerance....boy oh boy!

Dear BOY, have you ever been able to focus in a discussion?

If your only mission in life is to demonstrate your wealth of profanities and contempt for civility, then I`m sure everyone here agrees that you`ve accomplished that goal.

While you STILL seem utterly confused between Muslims and Islam, like I said before, I will respond to each and every thing you`ve said - word for word - AFTER you`ve fulfilled the requirement of answering the questions I put to you not too long ago. Considering your apparent schizophrenia, I`ll reiterate:

1. What is your definition of religion? Please note that statements like ``What the heck you think I am, another Mullah? do not count as legitimate response in a discussion. If anything, it is considered ``weaseling out``, if you understand the term, because the word applies to EVERYONE.

2. Do you have the courage to study the Quran?

:)~~

Re: # 268 by tahmed32

First of all, I apologize if you`re not a Mirzai. But this is the general impression you have created on Chowk with you incessant assertions that it is not obligatory for Muslims to emulate and obey the Prophet (PBUH) as per Allah`s Instructions in the Quran. Again, I apologize with all sincerity if you`re not a Mirzai. Now the rest is between you & Allah.

I hope you will allow me and others to benefit from your unmatched knowledge of the Quran by pointing us to the Quranic distinction between ``those destined for hell and those destined for heaven``, i.e. the Quranic distinction between Momin, Muslim, Kafir, Munkir, Munafiq, Dh`uful Iman, Sabi`een, etc. Hopefully things will become clear as mud for jang too.

I hope you`ll respond very soon, because if I AM on the wrong path then you will be held accountable for not showing me the correct one. And please do note again that it is imperative for you to substantiate your arguments according to Quran and Sunnah. Otherwise you`d be flogging your behind in vain.

:)~~

#267 by ntsyed on May 30, 2006 9:06am PT



I AM a descendant of the Prophet (PBUH) with proper documentation.


mother mary on a whole wheat bagel!! you`re fucking kidding me, right?

You are a descendent of Ol`Mo?

Come to think of it...the resemblance is uncanny..

Re: # 272

Tahmed sahib:

So why be one, if one does not need it for going to heaven?

What if someone, like me, only wants to the current life to be happy, prosperous with good family and good friends, and does not care for ``Go To Heaven`` card, in after-life.

Anil

jang #271 You are equating kaffir with non-muslim. However, the two are not the same thing.

The key distinction in the Quran is between those destined for hell and those for heaven, not between muslim and non-muslim. Thus, the Quran explicitly states that you can be a muslim or christian or sabian or indeed any other religion, if you have distinguished between right and wrong (based on which you will be judged by God on the Judgement Day), and acted accordingly, you have nothing to fear. Thus, all humans will be judged based on their actions, not based on other criteria like circumstance of birth or the religion they follow.

Those who knowingly do wrong things - attack innocent people, claim to have some special position before God for any reason (e.g. by claiming descent from the prophet), tell lies, and so on - are clearly acting wrongly, and it is to these potential residents of hell that the term kaffir applies. kapeesh??