Change Management:Marx and Muslims

Re: 346 by Folio

Didn`t mean to ignore you there. Just a lack of time.

[Are you from Chettinad or Guntur (mirch eaters)?]

No, I`m not from South India.

[Some of the friends from Pakland (domiciled or expats) have this utopian view of believers. Self-criticism is not a word of their lexicon. I hope the window of the world opens to them when the mind aperture opens & sees the other world(s).

They worry more about the life after death than the present life, unmindful of making the life of themselves and those of others miserable. I am struck by some obersvation of a gentleman in this board that Pakistan is well developed than India! I wish it was and hope they would and steer (the people on either side of Radcliff Line) clear of this endless moaning!

You find our ex-brothers and their families seeking visas to the first world countries. I read (Masood Hasan, The News two weeks back) that about 8000 Pakistanis sought asylum in South Africa! You find many such cases of illegal migration. I heard from friends that visas to the Kafiristans are arranged at prices like ten lakhs! If Pakistan is such a developed country why they seek migration to Kafiristans? It also blows the TN Theory in some sense.

Many doubts! ]

Folio, I`m not really interested in Pakistan except for the fact that it has been an intractable enemy and a major pain in the a$$ for India for the longest time. If they feel they are doing better than India - fine. If they think that they are superior in some strange incomprehensible way - that`s all right with me. I just worry about their presence like a melanoma that refuses to go away.

I`m not interested in Paki-bashing. However, when I hear comments about Kashmir from some idiots on this forum (Zeena comes to mind), I feel that people like Arjun deserve an award for the fine work they are doing.

#344 krishna. I am glad you appreciate some of what I wrote. You are entitled you your views on the Quran, and certainly the behavior of too many muslims today and through the centuries is no indication that being a muslim is either necessary or sufficient to being a good human being.

As for what the pope said, I think you are referring to the second Vatican Council held in 1962 (a century after the first one), where the church changed its historical stand and acknowledged salvation was open to nonchristians (jews and muslims being specifically mentioned, but the gates being left open to all). This was part of the effort made by Pope John Paul to end divisions with people of other faiths. So, it wasnt just a flash in the pan, but in fact a historic shift in the church doctrine (at least to the best of my understanding).

#345 ylh i am glad you see the sense behind what i wrote. however, i think ``contemptuous`` is the wrong word you use - i differ from his views, but (as I think my post makes clear) I very much appreciate his sincerity. I just think that his views are shaped by generally prevailing heresay in Pakistan, and that is why I emphasize reading the Quran without any preconceived notions of what the ``islamic`` view really is (since too much of what passes for islam is in fact fiction created over the centuries for the benefit of the rulers, or plain superstition and so forth). The clear and simple message of the Quran (as stated in bold in my post #343 below) then comes through loud and clear.

Here is another gem. I donot believe in Allah or any such monotheistic BS and according to this Quranic blah, i am destined to lie on some evil bed. (i am so scared).

---

003.012
YUSUFALI: Say to those who reject Faith: ``Soon will ye be vanquished and gathered together to Hell,-an evil bed indeed (to lie on)!
PICKTHAL: Say (O Muhammad) unto those who disbelieve: Ye shall be overcome and gathered unto Hell, an evil resting-place.
SHAKIR: Say to those who disbelieve: You shall be vanquished, and driven together to hell; and evil is the resting-place.

RE: Krishna and Joshi :
Here is the proper authentic answer to your questions. Allah Mian gave a proper template in al-Quran:


In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful.

109.001
YUSUFALI: Say : O ye that reject Faith!
PICKTHAL: Say: O disbelievers!
SHAKIR: Say: O unbelievers!

109.002
YUSUFALI: I worship not that which ye worship,
PICKTHAL: I worship not that which ye worship;
SHAKIR: I do not serve that which you serve,

109.003
YUSUFALI: Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
PICKTHAL: Nor worship ye that which I worship.
SHAKIR: Nor do you serve Him Whom I serve:

109.004
YUSUFALI: And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,
PICKTHAL: And I shall not worship that which ye worship.
SHAKIR: Nor am I going to serve that which you serve,

109.005
YUSUFALI: Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
PICKTHAL: Nor will ye worship that which I worship.
SHAKIR: Nor are you going to serve Him Whom I serve:

109.006
YUSUFALI: To you be your Way, and to me mine.
PICKTHAL: Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.
SHAKIR: You shall have your religion and I shall have my religion.

Re: # 344

Krishna,

Are you from Chettinad or Guntur (mirch eaters)?,

Some of the friends from Pakland (domiciled or expats) have this utopian view of believers. Self-criticism is not a word of their lexicon. I hope the window of the world opens to them when the mind aperture opens & sees the other world(s).

They worry more about the life after death than the present life, unmindful of making the life of themselves and those of others miserable. I am struck by some obersvation of a gentleman in this board that Pakistan is well developed than India! I wish it was and hope they would and steer (the people on either side of Radcliff Line) clear of this endless moaning!

You find our ex-brothers and their families seeking visas to the first world countries. I read (Masood Hasan, The News two weeks back) that about 8000 Pakistanis sought asylum in South Africa! You find many such cases of illegal migration. I heard from friends that visas to the Kafiristans are arranged at prices like ten lakhs! If Pakistan is such a developed country why they seek migration to Kafiristans? It also blows the TN Theory in some sense.

Many doubts!

Man what this board needs is a tolerance of views ... even those that might diametrically opposite to ours... including the claim that some may be descendants of this famous figure or that... though that has no real bearing on present reality ...

That said there is logic to what tahmed says... and I agree with him without sharing his contempt for ntsyed`s point of view... ...

#343 by tahmed32

The last Pope had made a statement to the effect that people of any religion, or no religion at all, can still ``reach`` heaven, if they are good people. He was roundly condemned by conservative Christians all over the globe. For, as they correctly pointed out, what was the point then of converting heathens and thus ``saving`` their souls?

You made a similar statement on this forum. This kind of non-narcissistic thought process is a wonderful development in the Muslim world, and the more Muslims think this way, the better this world is going to be.

However, the central problem will always remain, and will not go away. Because it is codified in the Koran. The message of the Koran is neither ``simple`` nor ``clear``. You may insist on it, but since I do not think you are not more intelligent than me by any appreciable extent, and my reading comprehension is at least as good as yours, as is my ability to do research from multiple credible sources, I am not buying that. The problem will persist until some wise Muslim chooses to remove a lot of hateful sayings from the Koran (by calling them ``inaccuracies` or anything else he wants to), and rewrites Muhammad`s life-story.

That will be the beginning of the end of a lot of trouble and misery in this world.

ntsyed #335/339: While wishing you an enjoyable vacation, let me thank you for a sincere discussion. You raise a number of interesting issues in these two posts, to which I have provided my views below for you to consider if you wish while parasailing (Holy Book in hand) in the Bahamas. :-)

Equality of all People: We agree here then. No issue.

Hadees (or Hadith): Your refer to the hadees to reach your conclusion ``not to put down others` beliefs regardless of how trivial and flawed they may appear to you. . I ask you, why not refer to the Quran for this? Is the Quran not sufficiently clear and emphetic on this matter? Indeed, why not simply rely upon one`s common sense and conscience to reach this conclusion? Since, isnt the over-riding message of the Quran one that places responsibility on the individual to use his God-given faculties to distinguish between right and wrong? And isnt that one simple message worth more than all the Hadith, all khutba ever held put together???!!

The sad reality is that muslim nations are by and large the least respectful, the least tolerant of all nations - isnt this because they have forgotten this simple, clear message of Islam and replaced it with all kinds of instructions cobbled together over the centuries by all sorts of individuals who (per the dictum of the equality of all people) have no greater standing before God than you or me??

3. Faith in Allah This faith is no monopoly of the muslims. Indeed, it is intrinsic to all humans, a part of our psyche. Thus, as in Taoism (and I believe there is something similar reflected in the Mahabharatha) they say ``The Tao that can be named is not the true Tao``: in other words, we cannot understand God. God is the Unknown. The frontiers of physics today are starting to see Creation as being a projection of knowledge from outside our four known dimensions!! Thus, the actionable item in the Quran for all humans is deeds, and intentions and making good use of God-given faculties to see and to hear and to reason . And that, my friend, is what Islam is all about - or would have been all about had it not been used for selfish purposes by kings and caliphs and their paid servants - the qazis - through the ages which has repaced the clear and simple message of the Quran that empowers the individual with an oppressive system that uses shariah to subordinate the individual to the dictates of the will of the king (or caliph, or dictator).

Re: # 338

Syed sahab, in one post you said you studied Hinduism, now you talk of this grant of 7 lives. You aint read nothin`, man, you aint read nothin`.

Anyways, wish you best of luck with whatever you believe in. Who cares?

Me too.

Have no desire to further continue this heaven v/s hell baloney.

#332 by ntsyed

I rest my case.

* evil grin *

various by tahmed32

Since I`m about to take off on the best vacation of my life, and may not be able to come back to chowk for a while, I`ll share my concept with you regarding `All people being equal.`

Dear friend, please read carefully: All humans are CREATED equal. It is us who choose to be ``unequal`` with our deeds, which are based on beliefs and so forth. That`s why there`s a need for Judgement Day, because Allah gave each of us a level playing field.

Now, I hope you`ll not post the childish question about why one is created rich and others poor, etc. That`s a separate debate to understand the reasons behind it. Suffice it to say, the word is E-QUALITY, not E-QUANTITY.

I think you`ll appreciate a hadith I heard only recently in which some of the companions of the Prophet (PBUH) asked him (PBUH) about why the non-believers have had so much more wealth since as far back as we can think of wealth? And why does Allah allow them to accumulate so much wealth, which brings them immense power to subjugate the common person. The Prophet (PBUH) is said to have said that if all wealth in this entire world was worth one feather of a mosquito to Allah, Allah would not grant the non-believers even one drop of water.

Another hadith I learned not too long ago is not to put down others` beliefs regardless of how trivial and flawed they may appear to you. There is tremendous wisdom behind it if you care to think.

With this I bid thee adieu & Allah Hafiz,

ntsyed :-)~~

Re: # 331 by subhashjoshi

I apologize for the interruption.

subhash saheb, I understand one gets 7 lives according to the Hindu mythology. I don`t mean any disrespect but please do ask yourself about what happens after the 7th reincarnation?

Eventually it`s the Heavens and Hell, right?

Which means there`s going to be a reckoning, right? And everyone`s good deeds and bad deeds each has accumulated in all 7 lives will be separated for the verdict. Correct?

Now think about the possibility for the sorry sod who gets his first life before this planet stops moving and everything comes to an end. And logic dictates that it has to end if there`s be a grand reckoning.

What should we expect for that particular sorry sod?

If he/she has been a good person in the ONLY life and makes it to heaven, then wouldn`t it be an injustice with the ones who had to work 7 times harder to get to the same place?

On the other hand, if the he/she had been a bad person and is sent to hell, then would it be fair for him/her to have gotten only 1 chance to make it to heaven?

Whatever the case may be, somebody is going to end up the short end of the stick. Don`t you think that defeats the whole purpose of reckoning, heaven and hell?

Anyway, the reason I don`t demand an answer from you, instead I`ve asked you to ask yourself these questions, is because the answers may prove more valuable to you than me. Needless to say, it may take you some time to find the answers, because for one thing the answers will create more questions in your mind.

As for the correlation between `good deeds and faith` - good deeds are no big deal. Goats, cattle, dogs, and all the other creatures do it everyday. Such deeds are not limited to feeding the hungry, guiding the blind, etc etc. We all do that whether we`re faithful or unfaithful.

Of courese, such deeds are rewarded here and they may be rewarded in the hereafter too. But there comes a time in everyone`s life when one is faced with a tough choice: to do the right at one`s own expense, even when one can justify his/her inaction or the ill-action in that particular situation; or to protect one`s own interest at the expense of others.

On these occasions does one need FAITH in a sound and unshakable ideology - not the actions of the subscribers of that faith - to provide him/her courage to do the right thing. [I hope some can differentiate between the Islam and Muslims now. Otherwise, the world hasn`t lost anything extra anyway.] The situation may vary for each one of us and it may come at different times in each of our lives. It may be related to the family, friends, work, society, the world, and what have you.

The sound and unshakable ideology - again not the actions of its subscribers - gives one a set of principles to live by. Then the principles determine a purpose in one`s life. The purpose in turn gives one a vision, or a mission if you will, for the eternity. Subsequently, using this vision/mission one maps out a chart - a course of action - in one`s life. One can reverse the order, but still he/she will come to the following conclusion.

With the set of principles, vision, and direction one is enabled to continue to do the righteous deeds regardless of the severity of the situation. That`s where the correlation between FAITH and GOOD DEEDS lie. In such situations, the weak of faith cannot find enough courage to put their life on the line in order to do the good deed hence cower. And as more and more people cower, they become slaves. Whether they become enslaved by other human beings or not, they certainly become slaves of their cowerdice, imprisoned in their own conscience. That`s exactly where the evolutionists and people of mythologies, ideologies and faiths other than Islam find themselves speechless and dumbfounded.

Other than that, even the serial killers come up with a justification for their heinous crimes. Dhamer had one, GWB has one, etc etc etc.

I understand some here are tempted by their incorrigible urge to bring WTC into this to distract everyone from the topic at hand, particularly regarding this article. I urge them again not to do so without a solid evidence that could stand in a court of law. So far there hasn`t been one, and I`d be delighted to see one if you have it. Still if you feel you have to shout to be heard whether you have anything to say or not, please be my guest and knock yourselves out because I`m finally off to Makkah & Madinah in a matter of few hours, insha Allah.

Salaam `alaikum to Muslims and peace to others.

Sincerely,
ntsyed :-)~~

Oh I forgot, someone asked me who decides Islam is the best system, or something to that effect. The answer is, no human being can. If anyone could, that someone could have taken on the challenge extended to the humanity by Allah in the Quran to produce even one chapter equal to the smallest chapter in it. 1400 years and counting, but haven`t had maa ka laal come up with anything remotely like a verse from the Quran.

This is only one of the evidences of its Supremacy. :-)~~

#311 by tahmed32

Keep in mind that I had no interest in disturbing the fool`s paradise you indians live in to begin with.

Fool`s Paradise is where you live in dear Tahmed. The alternate reality where Pakis are decent folks who focus on their own issues. Where the Kashmir issue, Danish cartoons, and the Israel-Palestine conflict are local Paki issues.

But if you losers come running to chowk to ridicule Pakistanis while crowing about India as if you were the Indian Minister for Bullshit and Propaganda, then I dont mind showing you the mirror.

The only thing you`ve been able to do so far is amuse everyone on Chowk right from ntsyed to krishna, two opposite ends of the spectrum. You`re Chowk`s uncrowned village idiot.

Re: # 334 by bharath

It`s funny you equated my opinion as hopelessness. Not that I`m offended, not even in the least bit, I think it is the hopelessness of the non-believers who become content with this temporary life due to lack of faith and the will to seek better for themselves in the eventuality.

BTW, I don`t mean to digress but post the following as a simple FYI. Bertrand Russell also said: ``It cannot be expected that most powerful military nations will sit still while other nations reverse the balance of power by mere power of breeding.`` [Marriage and Moral, 1929]

With rapidly decreasing workforce of their own, the above is perhaps the most pivotal concern of today`s powerful military nations. Hence, we witness an incessant verbal outcry for the reduction of population in countries like Pakistan and India. Perhaps the increasing military incursions all over the globe by current powers serve this purpose too. Allah Knows best.

Suckers as most of our compatriots are, particularly Pakistanis and Indians in our context of discussion, faced with these military powerful nations and unable to fathom the latter`s underlying agenda, have bought into this rubbish of population reduction with body and soul. In light of the above quote, little do our compatriots know, they are axing their own feet and pushing their future generations into slavery by reducing our own populations.

Just a thought for the `wise` amongst us.

peace
:-)~~

Re: # 300 & 301 by tahmed32

``(btw, nobody n Pakistan pronounces hadis as ``hadith``, so I prefer to spell it the way it is pronounced).``

It`s your choice, but I find it rather silly because most people in Pakistan don`t pronounce just as common words in the English language either. However, I`m sure you do make point to pronounce them as they are meant to be. Anyway, that`s not important.

My dear friend, why are you so adament about not to consult the Quran on this matter. This time, please read the entire chapter of surah Baqarah to understand what is being. As I said before, according to the Quran, the primary condition to enter the heavens is `faith in Allah`. Along with the faith, one has to do the required deeds as well, regardless of how unfashionable they may be at any given time. When you read the entire chapter, you will notice that heaven is only being promised to the `believers`. The non-believers are also rewarded, but not with an entry into the heavens. Again, please read about Abu Talib - the dearest uncle of the Prophet (PBUH).

The above answers your questions 1 & 2, if you read carefully; the replies to 3 & 4 and #301 to follow.

Meray Bhai, whoever told you that one is NOT obligated to share the knowledge Allah Blesses him with? Please read the Quran, there is tremendous emphasis on spreading the message to the entire humanity, as this is the religion for all - not just the Arabs. Think about it, if that wasn`t the case then how would it have reached you and made you so proud of your choice to be a Muslim?

The Prophets (peace be upon them) will be held responsible if they didn`t spread the message and implemented the system. That`s why all of them endured immense discomfort and torture meted out to them by the disbelievers. What they will not be held accountable for is the number of people who rejected their message and reversion to Allah.

Similarly, we will not be held accountable for people who reject our knowledge. But just like the accountibility for our health, wealth, and everything else Allah has Blessed us with, we will be held responsible for the knowledge we do not share.

Your apparent hatred for the mullahs is understandable as many of them have distorted Islam to their ends. However, the above is not from any mullah, or even the Prophet (PBUH). The Prophet (PBUH) and a few scholars who devoted their entire lives to this mission only reiterate what Allah says in the Quran.

With all due respect, you`re way too concerned about Islam being joked about by a few jokers. It`s a joker`s nature to joke about everything - it`s matter of his survival if you know what I mean ;-)~~

But seriously, since the time of Nooh (AS) the non-believers have humored this one and only religion. Some did it out of arrogance, and other out of ignorance. Does that mean you will continue to dilute your faith every time a new joke comes around? How long will you do that?

We can spend our entire lives but it never be enough for the non-believers, because people, ideas, jokes, etc continue to change with time. Just look around you on this very portal. The very people who are singing praise for the USA today - with or without a rhyme - were worshiping USSR until the latter collapsed. Before that it was Great Britain, perhaps before that it was Portugal, Spain, and so on. These are the children of those who used to literally sing and dance for Muslims, Aryan, and what have you.

The due to their stubborn disbelief, non-believers live only day-to-day as they cannot fathom the concept of next chapter of life, the hereafter, in the greater scheme of things. This way of life leaves them no choice but submit to everyone and anyone. I guarantee you, insha Allah when Muslims do reign in the Dajjali forces these very people will fight each other to become your slaves.

The simple philosophy in life, my friend, is mathematical. We can either choose to bow before One Allah and do our best to please Him, or we can try to please hundreds of people around us. If you notice, when it comes to pleasing human beings, we often fail to please even ourselves. That`s just how we`re created, and that`s who we are.

In my humble opinion, you are on the right track. But for some reason your hatred of Islamic scholars prevents you from learning more about your own faith. Please be careful, because it seems your faith in modern definition of `secularism` - which has only amplified the conflicts and problems in this world instead of simplifying them - is taking precedence over your faith in Allah and His prescribed way of life.

If you have deliberately chosen to have it this way, then may Allah help you.

As I asked krishna, I hope that at some point in your life you do consider for a moment ``what if you`re wrong``. The sooner you ask yourself this question the better, because you never know how much longer each of us has to live.

Allah Hafiz,
:-)~~

:-)~~ = HOPELESS


``The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.``

- Bertrand Russell

Mr. Subhash: This is indeed a non-trivial problem (as my math teacher - Allah bakhshay - would have said). I mean this opportunity hinduism provides for you to return as a bumble bee and mend your ways, while in islam it is a one-way street to the deep frier if you screw up. I must speak to our marketing VP and see if we cannot beat the deal you are getting. In any case: how about those 64 virgin islam gets you?? how about those farm-fresh oranges dripping with anti-oxidants you get in heaven?? Can hinduism match that?!! Of course not!!! :-)

Re: # 291 by krishna_abcd

As you wish.

My only purpose to visit chowk, as you may have guessed, is to share the knowledge I have and invite non-Muslims to Islam.

Considering the astronomical and geological phenomena, the planet earth is going to end sooner or later. No amount of `save the planet` drives can prevent it because it is simply beyond our control. We haven`t even discovered half the mysteries buried in it, for crying out loud, and already we witness increasing numbers of natural disasters, much more devastating than each before. Therefore, the prospect of returning to this life is as moot as a man made statue to be the creator of anything.

Just so you know, I have studied the Christian and Hindu ideologies. Suffice it to say, the massive inherent contradictions give me immense satisfaction that I have chosen to remain a Muslim.

Anyway, since you also believe in the Judgement Day, if my ideology is correct then you will be one of my witnesses that I not only conveyed the message to you but also invited you to enjoy the most natural way of life - Islam - on this earth. On the other hand, if I turn out to be wrong, then you couldn`t claim the same. Krishna ji, it`s all about accountibility whether we choose to take the responsibility or not.

:-)~~

Re: # 330 Tahmed-jee

But I am not after amusement. I just don`t want to go to Hell. Hindus may be funny but they don`t mind if I join them in Heaven. They also give me chance to come back to Earth and enjoy carnal pleasures, as a mongrel or a bee, doesn`t matter. The party remains on. It`s YOUR Islam that wants to deep fry me. So I feel concerned, very concerned. Get it, Sirjee?

#328 see subhasjee? I knew you would find plenty to be amused by within your own hindu community. :-)

Re: # 326 closet-mullah32
[...one realizes more and more what Jinnah was talking about in calling for a separate nation....]

Yep.... the evil hinuds that jinnah has warned you about - that`s us.... yep, we are the bad ones - we love to kick mullah a$$es... :))... and sometimes, we even eat muslim babies... so go hug jinnah`s potrait and hide in the closet - big bad hinuds are out to get you... ;)

Re: # 327

My dear sir Hindu religion is really very funny and amusing. It`s also sometimes quite sublime. That`s why I love it, although I am not a believer. But Hinduism still alows me to remain Hindu, nobody ever threatened to slash my throat for this.

As far as the men walking naked covered in dust are concerned, I`m sure they do it for personal gratification rather than to please any god (or goddess?) But then at least Hindus can claim to have invented nudism.

About casteism I know it`s a very deplorable thing but I would like to get enlightened more by ``your kind erudite self``. Please carry on. I don`t mind a bit.

One more thing, if you read Hindu scriptures, you will find that many of our Gods were quite lustful and great fornicators. Ever heard the story of Hanuman`s (monkey god`s) birth? Intriguing stuff!

#325 subhashjoshi: you seriously expect me to respond to half a dozen posts written after another.

All I can say is - it is indeed funny that some people believe in an afterlife, as you correctly note. However, I suggest you look at some hindu customs and you will find far, far greater room for amusement, complete with monkey gods, gods with elephant heads, weddings be set based on astrology predictions, men walking around naked covered in dust to make the gods happy.....


....and some not so funny stuff: individuals assured they are untouchable because they were bad in their previous life while those high caste types who have been screwing them for centuries are high caste because they were morally superior people.

Get it???

#314 hamidm: Shouldnt a discussion concerning paris hilton and the midget be permitted on chowk without complaints from a third midget complaining about being ignored? and without a half dozen other midgets coming out of the woodwork to join in the shrieks of agony (as per the posts below)? :-)

and now ntsyed has disappeared just as I thought finally we were getting somewhere in our discussions .... :-(

but seriously - as I think you agree, every time one comes to chowk and reads stuff from these freaks on chowk, one realizes more and more what Jinnah was talking about in calling for a separate nation.

Re: # 324

Well looks like you or anyone else, faithful or unfaithful, has no answers. Andherey mein teer chalaatey rahiye....

#320 i dont know all the answers, but i am sure if you are faithful you will find them.

Re: # 308 by tahmed saahb

We are merely worried about our own prospects of getting in to paradise, that`s all. Why does it irritate you so much? You are on our side anyway. It`s Syed Sahab who wants to block entry for us.

BTW, is it possible to get our very own Arjun Singh to make a good case for reserving 20% seats for us.

Re: # 306 tahmed

Oh yes our culture is quite primitive. We have no Divine Guidance System for flying planes into buildings.

tahmed sahebji, you are right, hindus should but-out. pakistan was created for ensure progress of muslims of the subcontinent and it can only happen in seclusion.

Re: # 297 by Jang

1) So, my dear Sir, the guys who flew into WTC, were they using Islamic Divine Guidance System (IDGS)?

2) Those who don`t believe in Allah are on wrong path. What course of action is recommended for the faithful in such case? (There should be some divine guidance for that, sure you can`t just let other (lesser) humans go astray, you should do something about it. So what does your IDGS say?

I am asking this because it concerns everybody, muslims and non-muslims. And also, everybody is free to talk about anything that is wrong with Hindu society, if that concerns you in any way, or even if it doesn`t.

Re: # 295 by tahmed32

[This is a discussion among muslims about muslim issues.]

Wrong. This is a discussion about muslim view of non-muslims, and therefore it concerns us.

BTW, are you a chowk-idaar here?

Re: # 314 hamidm
[...that is like saying we should have a diginified and respectful discussion about paris hilton and the midget ....]

LOL - well said :)... At slightest pretext, mullahs and closet-mullahs of chowk break into ``discussion on matters of religion`` - they thump koran to a pulp.... pull all sorts of non-sense from their hats and a$$es... .... And then they end up declaring each other as ``Not A Real Muslim``....

The islamic freak show continues day after day - closet-mullah32 is the joker-in-chief in this interminable act of stupidity...

#310 by jang

[folio, naturally men and women are made differently and have different natural needs, e.g. consider the ratio of sperm to eggs. any good religion would recognize this.]

Yes. Also the ratio of sperms to brain cells for Paki males.

#306 by tahmed32

[PS: I didnt waste my time reading the rest of your post.]

Oh yes, of course.....

Now do liars get sentenced to fry in oil on ``Judgement Day`` by Allah?

:-)

#306 by tahmed32

[#304 krishna-the-latest-genius-from-India-on-chowk: you ask `` Also, how come you are only talking about Islam, and not about other religions? Huh? ``

Because, genius, unlike you and your kind from India, I am interested in issues of concern to my own community of people - i.e. pakistanis, muslims. Unlike you and your kind from india - who are quick to find fault in other people`s religions and cultures while pretending to be unaware your own primitive culture.

PS: I didnt waste my time reading the rest of your post.]

Well, my dear tahmed-the-latest-genius-from Pakistan-on-Chowk, if you had bothered to read my post, you would have realized that the sentence ``Also, how come you are only talking about Islam, and not about other religions? Huh?``, was NOT A QUESTION THAT I WAS ASKING YOU, but rather I WAS SHOWING THAT IT IS THE KIND OF QUESTION AN ISLAMIC APOLOGIST LIKE YOU WOULD BE ASKING ME, WHEN CONFRONTED WITH CRITICISM ABOUT ISLAM.


And by the way, I have been around in Chowk for a while - I am the latest incarnation of Ajeya/Ramanujan.

tahmed,

`` but one thing I agree upon for sure, which is to have a dignified and respectful discussion on matters of religion ``.............. that is like saying we should have a diginified and respectful discussion about paris hilton and the midget !

#312 folio, offcourse answers are never so clear in these matters, but with faith and reading the book, you will reduce the confusion and find peace.

Re: # 310

Jang,

So, 1:64/72 is meant for procreation! Then what about multiplication? Each good man must be creating at least a family of so many hundreds, then about inter-generational multiplications! Mind boggling. What baout good children who are of small age(who cant do those things)? I think this arrangement is an incentive to make good people and was not meant for procreation. If there is any mention of details, pl expalin, I`ll be thankful to you.

Anyway, more we dig more questions would pop-up. I think all books of all religions were written by men. Women are considered as commodity.

harish_hyd #309 Well, dont let me disturb you inside your fool`s paradise.

PS: Keep in mind that I had no interest in disturbing the fool`s paradise you indians live in to begin with. I was detracted from my discussion on Islam with ntsyed by your indian genius krishna who was complaining about my discussing Islam only. But if you losers come running to chowk to ridicule Pakistanis while crowing about India as if you were the Indian Minister for Bullshit and Propaganda, then I dont mind showing you the mirror.

folio, naturally men and women are made differently and have different natural needs, e.g. consider the ratio of sperm to eggs. any good religion would recognize this.

#308 by tahmed32

there is no contradiction. it is easy enough to skim through a post and spot a key thing on which to respond (although you may be using this other method of holding the computer upside down - that would certainly be the indian way of doing things).

Of course it is a contradiction and you know it. The Indian way of doing things apparently has been a great success and has brought Indians worldwide recognition, so maybe you Pakis should try it too. But then, maybe it won`t suit you martial types because brains here are a must.

as for your obvious resentment at the term ``primitive`` being applied to hindu culture - it doesnt require great discussion to understand that.

Resentment? I just pointed out the contradiction which you in your haste to get back at krishna obviously overlooked. In any case, what level of advancement a culture has reached can be guaged by the accomplishments of that culture and the acknowledgement of it as such by other cultures. India is recognized as one of the most ancient and advanced cultures of its time. Also, it goes without saying that Pakistan today is the most reviled country on the face of the Earth notwithstanding what you Pakis choose to believe. As for the greatness of any religion, it can simply be guaged from the acts of its adherents and Muslims haven`t exactly covered themselves with glory on this score. So please keep the chest thumping confined to the bathroom lest you become the laughing stock (not that you haven`t already) of Chowk.

instead of jumping to defend one another, you indians should be learning something from pakistanis on chowk - namely, that it is better to focus on your own problems rather than to hide from reality and get cheap thrills by insulting other people`s religion and culture.

Sure, Pakis focus on their own problems. Like the Kashmir problem, the Danish cartoons, the Israel-Palestine conflict. I can name a few more but I`m sure you got the idea.

#307 harish hyd: there is no contradiction. it is easy enough to skim through a post and spot a key thing on which to respond (although you may be using this other method of holding the computer upside down - that would certainly be the indian way of doing things). as for your obvious resentment at the term ``primitive`` being applied to hindu culture - it doesnt require great discussion to understand that.

instead of jumping to defend one another, you indians should be learning something from pakistanis on chowk - namely, that it is better to focus on your own problems rather than to hide from reality and get cheap thrills by insulting other people`s religion and culture.

#306 by tahmed32

Because, genius, unlike you and your kind from India, I am interested in issues of concern to my own community of people - i.e. pakistanis, muslims. Unlike you and your kind from india - who are quick to find fault in other people`s religions and cultures while pretending to be unaware your own primitive culture.

There you go again. In just one sentence, you managed to contradict yourself. You say you`re only interested in your country and people, yet you denounce Indian culture as primitive in the same breath.

PS: I didnt waste my time reading the rest of your post.

Since when have you started reading posts upside down?

#304 krishna-the-latest-genius-from-India-on-chowk: you ask `` Also, how come you are only talking about Islam, and not about other religions? Huh? ``

Because, genius, unlike you and your kind from India, I am interested in issues of concern to my own community of people - i.e. pakistanis, muslims. Unlike you and your kind from india - who are quick to find fault in other people`s religions and cultures while pretending to be unaware your own primitive culture.

PS: I didnt waste my time reading the rest of your post.

Re: # 281

(HE sent those messengers ...

Then HE left the books for us for this purpose...

...all five senses tuned to hear HIM - these are the valuable pieces from your post).

My question (post 302) to Krishna is answered thru` you. Allah is a man like us (see all pronouns). I hope you are an expert on the subject. Now I understand why men are lured to be good, coz Allah is a man. Till now I read the heard the Allah is nameless, faceless, sexless kind of entity, kind of light. Your post has claered that question for me.

I still wonder what good women do in heaven? Would they have multiple-partners, kind of western world?

#300 by tahmed32

[in reading your post, i can see a basic issue - i.e. individual responsibility vs. ``hadees`` (btw, nobody n Pakistan pronounces hadis as ``hadith``, so I prefer to spell it the way it is pronounced).

So let me ask you:

1. Does the Quran place upon you, the individual, the responsibility to use your God-given faculties to see and to hear and to think rationally and with a conscience?? ]


Of course it does! It goes as follows:

1. Use ``your God-given faculties to see and to hear and to think rationally and with a conscience``.

2. However, if by doing so, you find that you have to condemn a lot of what is written in the Koran, as well as Mo`s deeds, then don`t use the approach described in point number 1. In these cases, suspend intellect and disbelief, and try to ``read between the lines``. For example, if Mo says ``kill, kill, kill``, it REALLY means ``love everybody``. If Mo beheaded 700 unarmed men, and sold their women and children into slavery, it REALLY means that they deserved their fate and therefore it is okay. If he wanted to marry a 1st grader at 53 years of age, it really means he`s just a normal red-blooded man brimming with love for humanity. And so on....

3. If you can`t stomach point #1, then that clearly means that:
a) You hate Muslims, and therefore your arguments are irrelevent, or,
b) You lack the ``courage`` to read the Koran properly, or,
c) You are an idiot, and therefore anything you say is irrelevent.

Also, how come you are only talking about Islam, and not about other religions? Huh?



Get the drift?

#302 Folio

Aah darling, you raise a question involving logistics in matters of the Book!

Most of the times such questions are difficult to answer - because they require people to go read a Book - which, for the average bozo like me - is about as likely as NTSyed saheb taking his pants off to impress the residents of Laloo`s village - highly unlikely to occur and if attempted, highly likely to end in miserable failure!

And as everyone heard the great goateed gentleman indicate earlier, my knowledge of such matters is minimal!

However, there are always exceptions! This one about the seventy-two virgins is the easiest question to answer!

Elementary, my dear Watson!

In the world population, there is a roughly one to one correspondence between men and women. Therefore, if - in heaven - one virtuous man is provided a harem of seventy two virgin women (let us stay away from the alternative (life style) scenario for now) then somewhere else there exists a virtuous woman with seventy two virgin men!!

Imagine that you are a woman and accosted by seventy two horny males who are virgins to boot.

Things can get HOT in a jiffy! Very hot!

While being ably guarded by that gentleman with a tail!

Re: # 298

Krishna,

I think u read Quran so well. Pl tell me one thing. If a good man goes to heaven he can enjoy 64 virgins. What about a good woman? Would she get enjoyment from 64 young Amir Khans or 32 Shahrukh Khans or atleast one Osama Bin Laden or no enjoyment at all?

Dont u think that, like many religious books, this was also written by men?

correction to #300 my comment ``but consistent with the spirit of the maulvi who takes upon himself the a level of accountability that was denied even to the prophet himself!!)`` should read:

but consistent with the spirit of the maulvi who takes upon himself the a level of accountability that was placed upon the prophet himself as a messenger of God. Thus, anyone else who claims to have special knowledge when he has none - like charlatans in the muslim world do all the time - will face the music on the Judgement Day. While the message of Islam is one that uplifts the individual, these charlatans would replace this message with one which reduces the individual to becoming a slavish follower of these charlatans.

ntsyed #288 coming back to your post... :-)

in reading your post, i can see a basic issue - i.e. individual responsibility vs. ``hadees`` (btw, nobody n Pakistan pronounces hadis as ``hadith``, so I prefer to spell it the way it is pronounced).

So let me ask you:

1. Does the Quran place upon you, the individual, the responsibility to use your God-given faculties to see and to hear and to think rationally and with a conscience??

2. If the answer is to 1. is ``no``, then of course there is nothing left to discuss and I will simply say ``to you be your way, and to me by mine``. If the answer to 1. is ``yes``, then please review your post as a responsible individual and tell me if some of the things you write still make sense to you, e.g. (and I quote from your post):

1. But the good deeds done without the ``faith`` in Allah, His Oneness, His Messengers, Revelation, and the Judgement Day, i.e. iman, will only be rewarded in this life.

2. The verses in Surah Baqarah you refer do not say what you believe. (i assume by this you mean the Quran does not really mean what it says when it says that you can be christian, sabian or any other religion and still have nothing to fear...)

3. the one who possesses good knowledge but does not share it others will be held accountable for not spreading the `message` to others. (btw, this sir is quite contrary to the spirit of the Quran - but consistent with the spirit of the maulvi who takes upon himself the a level of accountability that was denied even to the prophet himself!!)

4. o support your argument that emulating and obeying the Prophet (PBUH) is not mandatory and obligatory for Muslims (btw, this is the kind of statement that makes islam the butt of jokes for nonmuslims - and it is pushed by those who seek to put on the prophet`s mantle, like mullah omar who literally wrapped himself in the prophets blanket.)

krishna: Oh god in human form. it is so good to see you descend to the level of ordinary mortals and joke about maleech people`s religions. ha! ha! btw, did you hear the one about the sacred cow, the monkey-man, and the HIB positive guy who walked into a bar?

#297 by jang

[joshi, its very simple, if you read koran and be faithful, you will recieve divine guidance for good deeds automatically. else how will you know what is ``good``?]

Yes, how will you? Do you have a brain or something? Read the Koran, dammit! Have you read about Harut and Marut, you ignoramus? Well if you haven`t, read the chapter called ``The Cow``.


[..that my friens is the crux of the matter. know that if you dont take the right path when its being offered, and that too willfuly, you must pay the price.]

Yes. You WILL fry! That is the crux, so to speak. Infidel! Kafrrrrr! Kooofrrrrrr!!! Fry to a crisp! Fry!

#293
``It`s an AND condition - Allah ``AND`` good deeds.``

joshi, its very simple, if you read koran and be faithful, you will recieve divine guidance for good deeds automatically. else how will you know what is ``good``? that my friens is the crux of the matter. know that if you dont take the right path when its being offered, and that too willfuly, you must pay the price.

ntsyed: i may or may not agree with what you have written - but one thing I agree upon for sure, which is to have a dignified and respectful discussion on matters of religion rather than to have an insult-exchange which gets us nowhere.

I`ll try to get back to the specifics of what you wrote later.

Regards.

indians #294 etc: i realize your great need to drag india and hindus into everything - but i would suggest you try to control this urge. This is a discussion among muslims about muslim issues.

But dont let me stop you from doing your monkey dance.

#292 by subhashjoshi

[Syed sahab, please tell me one simple thing. I am a Hindu, and will never accept muslim faith. Shall I go to hell for this reason?]

Do you even have to ask? Of course you will!

You kafir! kufrrrrr! kifrrrrr! kooofrrrr! kafrrrrr!

Wait...let me clear my throat.

Yes....all of that! Blasted infidel! Kufrrrrrrrrr! They`ll fry you to a crisp. And they`ll keep frying you! Kafrrrrrr!

And you deserve it, too. Why didn`t you hack off the foreskin? Huh? Why did you eat pigs? Do you have the courage to confront these questions?

I guess not.

Kufrrrrrrr! Kafrrrrrrr! Fry! Fry!

correction: # 292

OK I see you answered this already : It`s an AND condition - Allah ``AND`` good deeds. It`s clear. Got to rot.

Re: # 288 by ntsyed

Syed sahab, please tell me one simple thing. I am a Hindu, and will never accept muslim faith. Shall I go to hell for this reason?

#281 by ntsyed


[Again, you don`t HAVE to speak if you don`t know what is being said and why. Becuase then you make foolish statements like ``If only Allah could talk louder, he would not need these messengers.`` ]

You cannot hold the fact that I am foolish against me. If I have a limited intellect, is it my fault?

But one thing about me - I try. For example - I was trying hard to get the inner meaning of the following sublime words in the apty named section ``The Cow``:

``2.102``: And they followed what the Shaitans chanted of sorcery in the reign of Sulaiman, and Sulaiman was not an unbeliever, but the Shaitans disbelieved, they taught men sorcery and that was sent down to the two angels at Babel, Harut and Marut, yet these two taught no man until they had said, ``Surely we are only a trial, therefore do not be a disbeliever.`` Even then men learned from these two, magic by which they might cause a separation between a man and his wife; and they cannot hurt with it any one except with Allah`s permission, and they learned what harmed them and did not profit them, and certainly they know that he who bought it should have no share of good in the hereafter and evil was the price for which they sold their souls, had they but known this.

I have to admit that I lack the courage to delve deep and get to the inner meaning of all this stuff.

Woe is me!

<:-(

I guess it is the fires of hell for me, huh? Do they fry the bad disbelievers? What kind of oil do they use? Probably the type I like the least. I have a born-again Christian friend who told me that Hell is full of gnashing teeth. Is it just teeth - like dentures, or are those the teeth of wild animals and ugly satanic looking residents of hell? Will the teeth be gnashing, or will they bite me as well? Will they tickle me with feathers? I am very ticklish.

It all sounds very uncomfortable. No wonder the smart people convert. I mean look at the choices - convert, and don`t eat pigs, and cut off your foreskin from your penis - and you get all these Houris to have sex with for eternity. Don`t convert, and these blasted teeth will keep biting you for ever!

I think the choice is clear. All I have to do is convert. But do I have to keep a beard also, to be absolutely 100% sure? All this is too deep. Too many deep questions. Do I have the courage to confront these head-on? I don`t think so... Can I choose which oil they use to fry me? No chance, huh? Sigh......

ntsyed and tahmed,

........... we can settle this little matter rather easily by using DNA testing ......... all we have to do is dig up the old prophet who has been restng in peace long enough, and take a dna sample ...... it shouldn`t take long and then he can rest in peace again untill the day of reckoning when the son of god will come back to earth to disturb everyone`s peace ..............

............ and all the syeds around the world - millions of them - should be asked to prove their lineage ........ i am sure we will find that the vast majority - over 90% - are fakes and imposters (although god knows why anyone would want to be related to a bedouin prophet of any kind) ............it is not mathematically possible for one man to have millions of direct descendents in less than fifteen hundred years, regardless of how many wives and concubines he had .........

Bharath,

Yaar if you visit my board .. I left you a couple of comments on Veeresh Malik`s board...

Please feel free to visit them at your convenience.

Re: # 283 by tahmed32

Boy ... do you have your undies in knots or what?

Please thank majumdar for pointing out that I did not even imply superiority over anyone. Goodness, are you always this constipated?

Allah ka wasta Bhai, first read the Quran, understand the meanings of the words and context of the verses as per the historical circumstances.

``This is like asking someone to point out where in the Pakistan Code of Criminal Procedure is there a distinction between those destined for jail and those destined to be free men!!``

Actually it is quite clear in the Quran, i.e. who will be permitted in paradise and who will be condemned to hell. Please refer to authentic ahadith regarding Abu Talib`s destination in the hereafter, even though he was the most ardent of supporters of the Prophet (PBUH) and the Prophet (PBUH) was devastated by his death. I`m sure you will be surprised.

True that the good deeds will be rewarded and the ill deeds warrant punishment. But the good deeds done without the ``faith`` in Allah, His Oneness, His Messengers, Revelation, and the Judgement Day, i.e. iman, will only be rewarded in this life. The big pie up there is reserved for those who maintained faith in Him AND did righteous deeds - not one or the other. Again, refer to authentic ahadith regarding Abu Talib. Otherwise what would be the need for ``FAITH`` in Allah? What would be the point of serving His creation without belief in HIM?

Think about it my logic impaired friend. If IMAN, aka faith on Allah, was not important to reap the benefits in the hereafter, then why would Allah order and remind us over and over again in the Quran that the best of believers are those who emulate and obey the Prophet (PBUH) as they obey Allah? The arabic words for good deeds, `amaal-e-saliha` and `Hasanaat` always follow the the word `iman` in every instance. Why is that, is the question should think about.

The verses in Surah Baqarah you refer do not say what you believe. You don`t need an exegete to understand these if you simply read through. However, your primary understanding is correct that the Message remains the same as day one.

You`re also correct to understand that priesthood (pir, syeds, etc) is prohibited in Islam, but please do understand the word `momin` before you include it in priesthood so carelessly.

I know I will be held accountable for my misdeeds, unless I repent and refrain from them in future. Not that I`m trying to shift the blame on you, the one who possesses good knowledge but does not share it others will be held accountable for not spreading the `message` to others. The simple rule of thumb according to Quran is that Allah will take account of every single thing He gives us, including but not limited to health wealth and knowledge. Otherwise, the whole purpose of Judgement Day becomes meaningless. One needs to read the authentic traditions of the Prophet (PBUH) to learn that in detail.

Whoever told you that the Prophets (pbut) were not required to ``implement`` the Word of God? Yes they were only messengers, and it was not up to them to breath faith into any person`s heart, but the implementation of what they believed in was their primary assignment. Please study the Prophet`s (PBUH) life to understand the correlation.

I suppose you use the last point to support your argument that emulating and obeying the Prophet (PBUH) is not mandatory and obligatory for Muslims, unlike what the Quran repeatedly emphasizes upon. I hope you don`t do that just for the sake of convenience. Because whosoever does that on purpose, treads on very very thin ice, to say the least.

While I continue to study the Quran every opportunity I get, I hope you consult the Book yourself. This is not a pi$$ing contest between you and I. For all I know you probably are a better person than I am, but your understanding of Islam, Quran, and the Prophet (PBUH) is too flawed, and I only mean to help so both you and I could have a good hereafter.

Just do me a favor, please read a tafseer by Ibn-Katheer, or Syed Qutb, or listen to Dr. Israr`s. If nothing else, I`m sure you`ll have more to humor me. If you do find it beneficial, the please go on to read the authentic ahadith by Bukhari, Muslim, Tirmidhi, etc.

The rest is between you and Allah.

:-)~~

Re: # 284

Tahmed Sahib:

You took my comment more seriously than it was intended. I know you are good man too.

Anil

Tahmed sahib,

Claiming to be a descendant of the Prophet does note seem to be a crime or anti-Muslim thing to do, unless of course such a claim was false. But yes, if someone claims a special privilege becuase he was a descendant of the Prophet it may not be very kosher. But I don`t think NT has claimed any such thing.

Regards

Re: # 282 by bjkumar

As far as reading the Quran is concerned, it may be a while before I can get around to it.

For your sake, I do hope the day comes sooner than later. Meanwhile you`re free to run circles around your misconceptions, ill-presumptions, and lack of reason.

:-)~~

anil #273 I think sir my post to ntsyed reaffirms what I wrote earlier. I am certainly not asking you or any other hindu or non-muslim to convert to Islam, nor have I ever done so on chowk. And I am sure you are a good man in real life (as I hope all of us on chowk are, despite our differences) and wish you the best in this life and the next. :-)

ntsyed #281 I see that you ignore the central point I made - namely that by claiming that you are a descendant of the prophet you are violating the Quranic injunction of the equality of all individuals before God and thus making yourself a kaffir. And instead move on to raise other issues and to offer apologies for labelling me a mirzai.

While I appreciate the conciliatory and civilized tone of your post, this omission makes the rest of your post essentially an exercise in beating around the bush. But, nevertheless, I have no problem with a civilized discussion on chowk even if it means ignoring the central issue and instead moving to other issues. So here is my response to the rest of what you write:

You ask me to point out to you the place the Quranic distinction between ``those destined for hell and those destined for heaven`` This is like asking someone to point out where in the Pakistan Code of Criminal Procedure is there a distinction between those destined for jail and those destined to be free men!! So, please get serious.

As for the various distinctions you draw: The Quran makes it clear in a number of ways there is only one overarching distinction - those who do the right thing and those who do not. Thus, e.g., the Quran makes it clear that it is only ONE of MANY messages that God has sent to ALL mankind. That it reveals nothing that has not already been revealed to Moses. That it is merely the ``Arabic Quran`` (as it modestly refers to itself), meant for a people who are unfamiliar with languages in which the message has already been revealed. And (as in Surah Baqarah) that you can be of any religion (i.e. not necessarily a muslim) and have nothing to fear for the Judgement Day.

So, it is crystal clear, not ``clear like mud`` in the fact that it does not consider muslims to be a special people by any means. Indeed, the Quran is most stern in its admonishments when it refers to those who think of themselves as a ``chosen people`` or as people who can serve as some kind of intermediaries with God (thus rejecting priesthoods, momins, and so forth).

Finally, you write ``I hope you`ll respond very soon, because if I AM on the wrong path then you will be held accountable for not showing me the correct one.``

You are dead wrong here: You, not I, will be held accountable for your going on the wrong path. This is the central message of individual responsibility to God that the rogues in Pakistan (and indeed rogues through the ages in all societies) have so clevely subverted in their quest to place themselves as ``religious leaders``, momins, aalims, pirs and yes - syeds - and so forth as they seek to use religion to gain power or status in Pakistan!! These are the rogues who have arrogated to themselves a position that was explicitly denied in the Quran to the prophet himself!! the Quran explicitly tells the prophet that his role is that of messenger only, and implementation is not his concern - that is a matter between the individual and God. I have responded to your post out of my free choice, and could have ignored your post altogether. If this central issue requires further clarification, then please take a fresh look at the Quran, unburdened by the general impression prevailing in Pakistan.

#276 NTSyed

NTSyed sahib,

Perhaps I was too strong in some of my words in #269. If so, sorry about that. (So, please stop marinating your hairs of beard with layers of tears.)

(1) The stone analogy was figurative - I have no access to your exact Rockwell number.

(2) I stand by every aspersion, if any, ever inflicted on the members of your religion who are carrying out the sordid deeds mentioned in #269!!

It appears that you ARE weaseling out to all my questions in #269 - perhaps for understandable reasons - you lack any meaningful answers - and unlike dear Yasser, have not stooped to the lawyerly-low of digging into sources that belong into despicable characters` poop tanks - all of that simply to assuage the pulverized pride of Pakistanis!

Poor Pakistanis - those poor, poor, Pakistanis!

As far as reading the Quran is concerned, it may be a while before I can get around to it.

First things first.

Pahle chowk puran - phir Quran!

Re: # 279 by krishna_abcd

Again, you don`t HAVE to speak if you don`t know what is being said and why. Becuase then you make foolish statements like ``If only Allah could talk louder, he would not need these messengers.``

dear abcd, one needs to tune his/her ears properly to hear Allah. HE sent those messengers (peace be upon them) to help the humanity tune up these. Some availed the opportunity and others remained belligerents. Then HE left the books for us for this purpose, some still remain belligerents and can`t hear anything.

Therefore, if you knew the proper use of your ears, and its coordination with your brain, you wouldn`t ask me the questions you have. Please don`t take me wrong, yours may be valid questions, but you only need to study Quran and Sunnah to obtain a much more satisfactory answers and have not just your ears but all five senses tuned to hear HIM loud and clear.

I hope you can demonstrate more courage than some of your compatriots here. Are you up to the challenge of your lifetime? I hope so.


:-)~~

Re: # 278 by krishna_abcd

dear American Born Confused Desi,

You don`t HAVE to speak if you don`t understand the context of what is being said and why it is being said, lest you make a fool of yourself.

Following is a quick analysis of your post, if you care to learn something.

DEFLECTION - Anger comes from fear. Ask yourself - what are you afraid of?

OBFUSCATION / FACE-SAVING due to ABSOLUTE CONFUSION –
ntsyed #255:
As such if you had been reading what you wrote, with a sincere self-assessment you`d notice that the Holmes quote applies more to you than the one you addressed. masadi was pouring more light on your mind to expand your knowledge, yet your brain contracted to produce the personal insults at him.

Do let us know when you`re able to comprehend the aforementioned phenomenon. But please do so without displaying your vulgar and profane colors if you wish to be heard.

abcd #278:
So if I think that mountains are not preventing earthquakes, and the Koran does not talk about the General or the Special Theories of relativity then I am not doing sincere self-assessment?

Yes. I need people like Masadi and you to expand my knowledge. Knowledge in what? Quantum mechanics? :)

Is that what happens when the brain ``contracts``?

Which phenomenon? The Aurora Borealis?

I think you’d have understood the context much better without breaking up the comments the way you did, because all you’ve done in this instance is avoid speechlessness through the aforementioned classification. Then again, that may have remained your only choice.

abcd: Vulgar and profane colors! Ouch! Now what colors would those be? :)

See bjkumar and arjun_m’s recent posts for further enhancement of your knowledge.

:-)~~

Re: #267 by ntsyed

[I`m glad to hear that you at least believe in the Judgement Day. ]

Umm. I have a question. On ``Judgement Day``, is it like daylight all the time, or a soft comforting glow all around? Kinda like halogen lamps. And is Allah going to be sitting on a throne? Does he have a beard, or is he clean shaven? I`m guessing smoking, drinking etc. are not allowed. How about women? Will there be good-looking ones? Robes, eh? Nothing see-through, I`m presuming. Not much fun, I guess. But then it`s judgement day. Hmmm. I`m guessing pot is out of the question.

[I`m sure you haven`t missed that part of the Quran along with numerous Orders from Allah to emulate Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and obey him (PBUH) just as thy obey ALLAH, if thy wish to attain HIS Pleasure. ]

Emulate how? Marry little kids? Daughter-in-law? You`re not being very clear.

If only Allah could talk louder, he would not need these messengers.

Re: #255 by ntsyed

[[krishna_abcd: I am honestly baffled.]

Your statement is one of the first symptoms of ``disbelief`` and one of the first ``consequences`` of a closed-up narrow mind. You don`t believe in yourself, do you BOY? ]


Anger comes from fear. Ask yourself - what are you afraid of?


[Poeple who cannot hear anything are called `deaf`, and people who cannot hear themselves are called dee-you-emm-be ``DUMB``? ]
Thanks for that piece of erudition.

:)


[As such if you had been reading what you wrote, with a sincere self-assessment you`d notice that the Holmes quote applies more to you than the one you addressed.]

So if I think that mountains are not preventing earthquakes, and the Koran does not talk about the General or the Special Theories of relativity then I am not doing sincere self-assessment?

:-)


[ masadi was pouring more light on your mind to expand your knowledge]

Yes. I need people like Masadi and you to expand my knowledge. Knowledge in what? Quantum mechanics? :)


[yet your brain contracted to produce the personal insults at him. ]

Is that what happens when the brain ``contracts``?


[Do let us know when you`re able to comprehend the aforementioned phenomenon.]

Which phenomenon? The Aurora Borealis?


[But please do so without displaying your vulgar and profane colors if you wish to be heard. ]

Vulgar and profane colors! Ouch! Now what colors would those be? :)

Re: # 274 by arjun_m

You may remember me telling someone not too long ago that I neither have a use for you nor the large cattle femur you desperately want stuck sideways in your throat. Your uninvited response to that was a suggestion for me to go blow myself up somewhere.

Well...here I am, Bubba... and you`ve already been blown up inside out ;-)~~

Now do you see what ignorance and jealousy does to people like yourself? Oops....but you can`t see...you just a had secondary explosion inside your skull, didn`t you Boy.

Awww... you sorry sod!

:)~~

Re: # 269 by bjkumar

hmmmm....

questions, rants, parroting of baseless mainstream media propaganda, underlined apologies for the US administration`s misadventures, personal insults, profanity, and beligerance....boy oh boy!

Dear BOY, have you ever been able to focus in a discussion?

If your only mission in life is to demonstrate your wealth of profanities and contempt for civility, then I`m sure everyone here agrees that you`ve accomplished that goal.

While you STILL seem utterly confused between Muslims and Islam, like I said before, I will respond to each and every thing you`ve said - word for word - AFTER you`ve fulfilled the requirement of answering the questions I put to you not too long ago. Considering your apparent schizophrenia, I`ll reiterate:

1. What is your definition of religion? Please note that statements like ``What the heck you think I am, another Mullah? do not count as legitimate response in a discussion. If anything, it is considered ``weaseling out``, if you understand the term, because the word applies to EVERYONE.

2. Do you have the courage to study the Quran?

:)~~

Re: # 268 by tahmed32

First of all, I apologize if you`re not a Mirzai. But this is the general impression you have created on Chowk with you incessant assertions that it is not obligatory for Muslims to emulate and obey the Prophet (PBUH) as per Allah`s Instructions in the Quran. Again, I apologize with all sincerity if you`re not a Mirzai. Now the rest is between you & Allah.

I hope you will allow me and others to benefit from your unmatched knowledge of the Quran by pointing us to the Quranic distinction between ``those destined for hell and those destined for heaven``, i.e. the Quranic distinction between Momin, Muslim, Kafir, Munkir, Munafiq, Dh`uful Iman, Sabi`een, etc. Hopefully things will become clear as mud for jang too.

I hope you`ll respond very soon, because if I AM on the wrong path then you will be held accountable for not showing me the correct one. And please do note again that it is imperative for you to substantiate your arguments according to Quran and Sunnah. Otherwise you`d be flogging your behind in vain.

:)~~

#267 by ntsyed on May 30, 2006 9:06am PT



I AM a descendant of the Prophet (PBUH) with proper documentation.


mother mary on a whole wheat bagel!! you`re fucking kidding me, right?

You are a descendent of Ol`Mo?

Come to think of it...the resemblance is uncanny..