No Ground Beneath Their Feet

#62, I have heard it called many things, but never a tomatoe. Apparently, Punoos have their own unique vocabulary. :)

I also really like the Swedish social democratic solution to the problem of prostitution:

``One is allowed to sell the tomatoes, but others are not allowed to buy them``


(scratching head)

Re: # 60

``But the logistics of such an operation in a country such as India will be quite overwhelming.``(Swarrier)

now that is another matter -- can India and Pakistan afford it? -- do they have money to spend on social services? -- the bane of civilized living.

yes they can --

if they can afford those good for nothin Nukes -- the Maharajas White Elephant and the missiles -- they can afford the logistics of a MUST social services system for the protection of women and their children from all kinds of abuse -- not only of sex workers children but children of all families all classes....

the question is what are India`s and Pakistan`s urgent priorities -- building roads. building schools improving rural and urban health, fighting AID, an all encompassing department of social services with power to prosecute -- to prevent social and economic abuse....?

or to build Nukes?

social services do requires money and lots of money -- but this money spent is worth the effort -- because it creates millions of jobs and provides a civilized humane clean living for the men women, children and elderly of the impoverished subcontinent.....

what purpose those goddam nukes serve -- except rotting in the sun or degrading in the silos for years and then becoming obsolete....the immoral unconscionable sinkholes of our subcontinent`s precious and scarce financial resources.....?

well I know the answer is security security -- but not the security of the sex workers children....that has to wait -- then what`s the use of talking about it....

Re: # 58
Zeemax
I wouldn`t think so. I mean both professions are really resorted to only to put food on the table so to speak in most cases.

However it is a good comparison. I was going to write that cycle-rickshaw pulling, in fact one step worse rickshaw-pulling should be abolished, when I saw the parallels. How could you take away the perhaps the only bread-winning way that is open to some people? I mean, what right does the state or society have, to do something like this without providing an alternate means of existence.

The one single difference in terms of controlling prostitution would be for the health benefits alone. A rickshaw puller puts, to a large extent, only his own health at risk (lets forget contagious diseases TB etc for the moment). A prostitute , male or female can pose a lot of health risks to society. That would be perhaps the only point where I would differentiate between the two.
I cannot moralise on professions. Who knows what any of us would do to live, to survive, to eat?

Nasah
You are right. But the logistics of such an operation in a country such as India will be quite overwhelming. I think the children would benefit, especially if the mothers or even fathers were allowed to visit.

Re: # 55

Dear Mr.GT....I am really sorry if I disturbed your sensibilities. I just wrote as the KS is not understood correctly. I am very kind person and feel very sad if I trouble anybody.I am regretful about my remarks and acquiesce and agree and consent quitely without protest but without enthusiasm, my remarks were not in good taste. I hope people will forgive me for my inadverdent remarks. I suffer through mental depression and that leads to loss of mental balance, again sorry. I think when write about S connected things leads to mistake. Earlier also one young woman called me pervert etc and it was sad feeling for me. I was and am very happy for few days as my old cat has returned after disappearing for 13 days and feel like returning of child to father. I thought he is dead as he normally goes out for 3 days max but 13 days was too much. I think he was starving as his fur is looking old tired but with good food and codliver oil soon all fur will get glorious. I gave him bath and combed and brushed his teeth ( my daughter has sent me a fingure cap type stuff and you brush teeth, idiot protests but my animal doctor friend showed me how to do it and works good, and he showed gratitude by slowy biting my fingure, love bite.
Other thing about this is always wondered if men are really happy when their wife gets pregnant. Any man really wants sex for children or its just unexpected outcome and has to accept ? Women get excited it appears as women worked under me always told me as best news to them but I never got excited too much. As good boss I showed them extremely happy but it was no event to me and their husbands. When young women approached me to have opinion about their possible husbands, they always told me he can be good husband and FATHER and he will look after children etc.. While men always said she is pretty, intelligent etc they never said will be good mother. Is this common or I am drawing wrong conclusions.
Any way this topics are not for me.
good afternoon. Good may month.++++

I have a question:

Is slum prostitution and its implications much different from other inhuman physical labour such as running a cycle-rickshaw? And Why? Is it because labour of the private parts is immoral while labour of the lungs is not?

Just a silly question since I`m curious. If the issue is being dissected, let`s dissect the tissue.

Swarrier?

``Now, what about the children? Legalising the profession is fine, however the confines of a brothel is hardly the area to rear a child. How are we going to take care of them? We cannot separate them from their mothers,....``(swarrier)

Sw - yes we can -- we can separate the children from their mothers.....

......same as we do in the United States under state child welfare laws -- if the child is being abused mentally or physically -- or child home environment is unhealthy in any way -- either the doctors will call the police -- or the neighbors will call the county social worker -- and the child will be separated from the parents and given to foster parent care.

In fact the fear of losing the child may be an incentive for a sex worker mother -- either not to get pregnant -- or find something better to do to earn her living.....

Re: # 53
AhmedMadani and GT
I have to say I was in error about the Kama Sutra. I have Alain Danielou`s translation and Part 2 , chapters 1 to 10 deal with the sexual act(s).

I think Nasah has put it very nicely why we need to legalise prostitution.

I would tend to agree with Khurram that the vast number of sex workers are in the business to put food on the table. Of course once in the profession some may stick to it voluntarily due to the economics involved. They may not want to be rehabilitated. After all courtesans were and probably are today in some societies very accomplished women. They may be perfectly happy the way they are and may not care about our moral stance.

Now, what about the children? Legalising the profession is fine, however the confines of a brothel is hardly the area to rear a child. How are we going to take care of them? We cannot separate them from their mothers, but how do we ensure that they do not get affected by their parents dealings?

Re: # 51 by FV

There is eve teasing and there is vulgar eve teasing. Eve (Adam) teasing could be an art, at lot of it has been immortalized through poetry, then there is ritualization - sangeet etc. Even vulgarity has been ritualized. I had been to a `tribal` marriage, when the groom came in profanities were hurled at the party except through beautiful (folk) songs.

#53 by ahmedmadani

Sir, why is it that you always leave me speechless?

#54 khurram,

Thanks for the reply. I need some time to get back.

Re GT#43,

I do agree with the Swedish approach, especially since it places great emphasis on re-habilitating the victim.
I consider prostitution analogous to selling of organs for profit. Some things in life should be beyond economic transactions.

Re: # 44,46 I read both response and have no direct comment for or against.
Honestly recently why such bad topics here can not fathom.
Now about book ``K.Sutra``.The book was written by sage for help to humanity. It is understandable and astonishing to have such clear cut book which appeared thousands of years before same appeared in Europe in Indian continent.Some may criticise book as mechanical and that is just wrong reading.
Sage Vatsysan ( we find diiferent spellings- Indian can put exact spelling and how it is pronounced) clearly emphasized the mental aspect of sex. He warns readers to understand most important organ in sex act is located between eyes , the brain ( not between legs).
He mentions different sex acts such as mechanical, visual and at highest level mental.
The ancient sex teachers from Pakistan ( Or India you can pick any) were wise people in this matter and were masters at roll breathing, progressive muscle relaxation which is stressed by modern doctors. In one text it is described as when all world goes to sleep the Yogi is awake and tormented and thinking about world and his own desires and he obtains control on his mind.They considerd at that time sex act as intelluctual act of high order and achieve pleasurable and sublimation as highest order, it should linguer for hours. In one old sex book it warns the reader that sex act will only be pleasurable and for long time only with man or woman of great intelligence as mental and sexual awareness should be at same level or will lead to after taste of sorrow and cheated feeling.( corrollary can be both stupids can be very happy also?) About prostitutes ( both male and female) they warn that its fast but not subtle. Also another text warns males to be aware of women`s nature and not be sexual all time as it says woman is sex partner for very short time but is nurturing person and even mother to men most of time. Any way why they write about prostitutes and dirty subjects I do not know but sex sells . Its all not necessary here as we are good people and never visit prostitutes.

the profession of selling bodies -- and the profession of selling God -- are both very ancient -- since the inception of human civilization -- at times hard to distinguish from each other

both professions are dangerous to human health -- but also both have provided comfort to restless human bodies and souls -- yet both have been at loggerheads with each other.

but that was then and this is now --

now that we have HIV and its mercurial chameleon virus -- the Mother of all temperamental Killers -- against whose ever changing antigenic moods -- it is almost impossible to make vaccines -- the professionals in God`s business must come to terms with the reality of prostitution and accept it as a fact of normal human life --

we simply can no longer continue to dehumanize it -- instead we need to physiologize it -- as part of our natural excretory systems -- for which we build elaborate rest rooms and sparkling urinals.

if not for heavens sake -- for our Health sake -- not criminalize it -- LEGALIZE it -- not demonize it -- EDUCATIONALIZE it -- not dehumanize it -- SOCIAILIZE it -- not demoralize it -- MEDICALIZE it --

.......as the Scandinavians have done it.....with the lowest incidence of HIV.

and leave it to the people to choose for themselves -- as Ghalib would say -- jisko ho jaan-o dil aziz -- uskee galee meiN jai KeoN....period.

#44 by GT

[On a slightly different issue. Do you get the vibe that we (South Asians and perhaps many Americans) associate sex with only the act of penetration? Sex associated with glancing, talking, singing, eating, drinking, touching etc. is hardly perceived and when perceived, the perception induces guilt! This in India! What went wrong? Definitely not the fault of the Muslims....definitely not.....Nizamuddin, Khusro....These guys LOVED God. Must have been Victorian ethics.]

Yes and no.

If I restrict myself to the subject here, then penetration is the only definition. In these cases, the guilt is manifest in the `illegitimacy`.

But in the outside society, it is prevalent -- what we strangely term `eve-teasing` when it is unwanted and negative. Dancing and drinking are very much associated with sex, whether it was nautch girls (in my earlier board I had written, ``Nautch girls have existed and sought patronage; these patrons decided on the fate of art and culture during their time``) or dance bars.

Of course, it is not the fault of the Muslims -- but from the examples you gave, the problem with loving god was sublimation. When we talk about history, we dignify it as `art`; it is less to do with guilt and more to do with regret!

[As I think about it, I am starting to take Urstruly seriously....We need Universities where we will be re-taught how to perceive and be comfortable with (if not enjoy) sex.]

Urstruly has given another POV, but I don`t think he had this in mind. In his ideal university, if a person scored a C minus, she would be a candidate for stoning/beheading! I do not think his theory of natural selection could work because there is already an imposition of rules.

- - -

Re: # 49:

[``Sharaafat nazron aur lafzoun mein nahin, zehen mein hoti hai… ``

In that case, has anyone ever come across a single individual on this planet who can claim to be `shareef`? If we find one, we should lock him up in a glass cage and display him as at a museum as an Area 51 specimen!]

I am not this cynical...and the idea is not to accept other people`s claims or third-party judgments. It has to be one zehen to another..yeh sharaafat ki baat hai, baghaawat ki baat nahin!

hamidm # 42 ``prostitution is probably as common in pakistan as in any other country and from what i see and hear``

So legalizing prostitution would mean that we face up to the fact that prostitution exists in Pakistan and that prostitutes would get better healthcare and other benefits etc. Why stop at that? Why not legalize child prostitution as well? That way we can ensure that children who are brought from Nepal and Bangladesh etc get healthcare and other benefits as well. Why deny the child prostitutes the rights we want to accord to the adult prostitutes? This way we can minimize the children`s exploitation by setting up minimum wages etc.

Sometimes the line between sex prostitutes and the intellectual prostitutes thins dangerously.

Re: # 39
``Sharaafat nazron aur lafzoun mein nahin, zehen mein hoti hai… ``

In that case, has anyone ever come across a single individual on this planet who can claim to be `shareef`? If we find one, we should lock him up in a glass cage and display him as at a museum as an Area 51 specimen!

Re: # 47

Oh wait , if that`s what you meant, social discourse leading to petitions, petitions to debates in parliament, debates leading to bills, bills leading to legislation , then I`m all for it.
I was thinking along the lines of all talk and no action. Sorry.