No Ground Beneath Their Feet

``From this it would seem that the boys find security in what is expected of them and the girls in what they expect. ``

Very important observation. Most violence and aggression, lack of sensitivity comes from the assumption that women are /ought to be passive.

Men do and women are done.

Aisha Sarwari

Re: # 77 by Khurram.

Done.

By the way, it was very nice having this conversation with you. Hopefully, over time, we get to know each other. In that case it will be nice to have a beer with you.

Re #76.
OK. I see your point. Let`s just agree to disagree on the legalization issue.

Re: # 75 by Khurram

Sure. But again there is already a market there. The price that you have to pay for a crime is the bribe that you pay the authorities. If you want to reduce crime you can surely increase punishments. But how about monopolizing the `authority`. That way bribes are very high and crimes low as compared to a situation with ``competitive authority`` where bribes are small and crime high.

Khurram, do not get me wrong. I think we agree to a large extent. Furthermore, I am ethically averse to the `trades` we are talking about here. I am also stretching things a lot to get my point across. However, I want you to see the other side of the picture too. Cigarettes are bad, but there is a market coupled with collective action in terms of dissipating information. As a result, in countries where collective action is strong we have a decline in smoking. As the same time smokers like me do not have to stop smoking and go off our bonkers :-) I do not want society to stop me from smoking. Yes, because of campaigns, I am aware of its bad consequence on me and I am trying to stop on my own free will.

Re #74,

Sometimes coercive criminal acts (theft, robbery) can also be ``least ethically wrong`` choice. That is not an argument for thier legalization. Society has to work to correct such situations, not accept them.

Re: # 73 by Khurram,

You are right, I have not argued against certain exclusions. However, I have highlighted a paradox regarding ethics imposed by a society with heterogenous constituents. It is as follows: How can a society select on the behalf of an individual when all the options facing the individual are considered to be ethically wrong? The individual, by himself, can make such a choice - he choses that which is the least ethically wrong. But the society cannot! This is because the constituents of the society would have different ethical rankings over the options. But if we are to leave individuals to make the choice then, under certain conditions, we know that welfare will be optimized (in a certain sense) under markets.

Re # 72 by GT

Thanks for a very thoughtful reply. I think there are 2 related issues that should not be confused. First, should some things be excluded from designation as private property? I think there is a consensus in most societies that our body parts,our children , our liberty and our sexualty are not to be traded as commodities. You have not really argued against such an exclusion. You have considered the 2nd issue, which is what happens when these exclusions are violated. You have correctly identified the root cause as the failure of collective action by society to provide a safety net to the individuals who resort to selling themselves. Legalization, for you, is a practical solution because it partially relieves the suffering of the victim i.e. the seller. But it also gives the buyer a free hand to create a market where the vulnerable can be exploited. That is why I prefer the Swedish approach. Selling is decriminalized, giving relief to the seller. The buyer is punished for his role in creating the market. And, society as a whole tries to correct it`s failure by allocating funds and efforts to rehabilitate the victim. And as for the practical side of it, the approach seems to be successful in its goals.

Simple legalization would be an abdication of responsibility for creating the conditions in the first place. Also, once you legalize prostitution you would be on the slippery slope to legalizing much else that is considered beyond private property.

Re: # 54 by khurram

You make a powerful statement when you say:

``I consider prostitution analogous to selling of organs for profit. Some things in life should be beyond economic transactions. ``

Free trade requires private property. While the benifit of private property is generally accepted, Nations have put limits on it. Even in the US we do not have property rights over our own body. After all, since slavery is banned we cannot sell ourselves to slavery even if we want to. Why? Forget slavery, but many types of long term contracts are deemed to be illegal in the US (common law) and France (civil law). Again why? It is here that ethics come into play and we do not know for sure where is the boundary between ethics and economics. Your point is that trading in sex is beyond economic transaction or in other words is ethically wrong and hence such trade should not be legalized. I understand that you do not disagree with the fact that for purely economic reasons it is nothing but a trade which has the potential of making both parties better off. So in what follows let me talk ethics.

Consider your arguement about body parts. Let there be an individual whose piece of land has to be given off to a creditor if he is not able to plant this year. He does not have money to buy seeds and being steeped in credit no one is willing to lend to him. He has two options: (1) let the land go and (2) sell one of his kidney and buy seeds with the money. For economic purposes let it be the case that option (2) dominates option (1). Now comes ethics. How can an outsider determine that (1) dominates (2) ethically? Suppose the individual believes that if he lets his land go then he has to migrate to a city, see his family disintigrate and above all see his only daughter turn into a prostitute. In such a situation is it OK for the individual to perceive option (2) to be ethically superior to option (1)? If so, then shouldn`t the individual get a fair price for his kidney? In other words, shouldn`t there be a market for kidneys?

Of course, a society which provides our individual with only (1) and (2) as options is not a great society to live in. We can sit in comfort and pontificate that such a society is bad, the govt. should do this and that etc. But what is this government and why is it not able to rectify matters? A little bit of thought will convince us that it is because WE, the constituents of the society, cannot or have not been able to take collective action. In such a situation, amongst other solutions, should we not allow the constituents of society to take private action? Actually, I claim, that is exactly what we have been doing in the case of prostitution. I want us to be honest about this. As a second step, I claim, legalization of prostitution, along with effective regulations which define the market, will help the private action derive fairness. There may be other solutions which are perhaps much better but they seem to be infeasible. I shall be happy to be proved wrong.

Re: # 70

Someday we must talk about etymology. I used to think Diya was a corruption of the Sanskrit Deepa (or as we say in my mother-tongue Deepam). It is very important for languages to absorb words from others. To remain pure would result in death. A living langauge has to rebuild itself over and over again.

Though I draw line at the word ``Puh-leeze``. -)

Re: # 69

more than adequate -- great translation -- Gujrati has many words fro Urdu Persian AND Arabic -- one of the common rural Indian word for light and lamp is Diya -- which actually is an Arabic word Ziya -- pronounced in Arabic as Diya -- in persian and Urdu as Ziya....!

Re: # 68
`Twas not like this
I had only desired,
it be this (that) way.

Would that be an adequate translation?

It is interesting that ``fuqut`` is phonetically similar to the Marathi ``fakt`` which also means ``only``.

Re: # 67

``fuqut`` means only -- ``sirf`` --

Re: # 66
What does ``fuqut`` mean? My knowledge of Urdu leaves much to be desired.

Re: # 64

swarrier -- I know -- as Faiz would say -- youN nu thaa maiN nay fuqut chaaha thaa youN ho jaaye

Re: # 63
Salim
A tomatoe is a toe that is given to a tom, from the olde Englyshe law , a tom, a toe. I do not know if a toe is given to a tabby.

Re: # 61

Nasah, I see where you are going, and this is something most of us have looked at, at some time or other . However it will not be considered practical. I do not know of any nation that has scaled back it`s defence expenditure unless it is under the umbrella of a much larger protector.

Neither India nor Pakistan will do it. When China exploded it`s first nuclear device in exchange for the death of around 30 million Chinese peasants it set into motion the nuclear fiasco. All our nascent nations have one thing in common. Deep rooted suspicion and distrust of each other. So forget abandoning the arms race.

Secondly if the government actively steps into this social service scheme you can bet that it will grind to a shuddering halt. The social services scheme even in the US is nowhere as good as in Scandinavia, and they are always short of money. In a large disparate nation like India it will be far more difficult to reinforce such a scheme. If anybody has to step up it is the social service organisations and the people on the street corner who must support them. Here I will agree with GT, if there is no grass roots involvement the government will be of no use. It will become another sick PSU. And I think a lot of our public are still too medieval in their thoughts to support this scheme. But in time and with more compassion ... who knows.

Our nuclear elephants are there to stay. Now I would take far more pride in the Konkan railway project. Or in the Jabalpur protheses, or the artificial heart valves made in Trivandrum . However these did not make half the news story that the bombs did.

#62, I have heard it called many things, but never a tomatoe. Apparently, Punoos have their own unique vocabulary. :)

I also really like the Swedish social democratic solution to the problem of prostitution:

``One is allowed to sell the tomatoes, but others are not allowed to buy them``


(scratching head)

Re: # 60

``But the logistics of such an operation in a country such as India will be quite overwhelming.``(Swarrier)

now that is another matter -- can India and Pakistan afford it? -- do they have money to spend on social services? -- the bane of civilized living.

yes they can --

if they can afford those good for nothin Nukes -- the Maharajas White Elephant and the missiles -- they can afford the logistics of a MUST social services system for the protection of women and their children from all kinds of abuse -- not only of sex workers children but children of all families all classes....

the question is what are India`s and Pakistan`s urgent priorities -- building roads. building schools improving rural and urban health, fighting AID, an all encompassing department of social services with power to prosecute -- to prevent social and economic abuse....?

or to build Nukes?

social services do requires money and lots of money -- but this money spent is worth the effort -- because it creates millions of jobs and provides a civilized humane clean living for the men women, children and elderly of the impoverished subcontinent.....

what purpose those goddam nukes serve -- except rotting in the sun or degrading in the silos for years and then becoming obsolete....the immoral unconscionable sinkholes of our subcontinent`s precious and scarce financial resources.....?

well I know the answer is security security -- but not the security of the sex workers children....that has to wait -- then what`s the use of talking about it....

Re: # 58
Zeemax
I wouldn`t think so. I mean both professions are really resorted to only to put food on the table so to speak in most cases.

However it is a good comparison. I was going to write that cycle-rickshaw pulling, in fact one step worse rickshaw-pulling should be abolished, when I saw the parallels. How could you take away the perhaps the only bread-winning way that is open to some people? I mean, what right does the state or society have, to do something like this without providing an alternate means of existence.

The one single difference in terms of controlling prostitution would be for the health benefits alone. A rickshaw puller puts, to a large extent, only his own health at risk (lets forget contagious diseases TB etc for the moment). A prostitute , male or female can pose a lot of health risks to society. That would be perhaps the only point where I would differentiate between the two.
I cannot moralise on professions. Who knows what any of us would do to live, to survive, to eat?

Nasah
You are right. But the logistics of such an operation in a country such as India will be quite overwhelming. I think the children would benefit, especially if the mothers or even fathers were allowed to visit.

Re: # 55

Dear Mr.GT....I am really sorry if I disturbed your sensibilities. I just wrote as the KS is not understood correctly. I am very kind person and feel very sad if I trouble anybody.I am regretful about my remarks and acquiesce and agree and consent quitely without protest but without enthusiasm, my remarks were not in good taste. I hope people will forgive me for my inadverdent remarks. I suffer through mental depression and that leads to loss of mental balance, again sorry. I think when write about S connected things leads to mistake. Earlier also one young woman called me pervert etc and it was sad feeling for me. I was and am very happy for few days as my old cat has returned after disappearing for 13 days and feel like returning of child to father. I thought he is dead as he normally goes out for 3 days max but 13 days was too much. I think he was starving as his fur is looking old tired but with good food and codliver oil soon all fur will get glorious. I gave him bath and combed and brushed his teeth ( my daughter has sent me a fingure cap type stuff and you brush teeth, idiot protests but my animal doctor friend showed me how to do it and works good, and he showed gratitude by slowy biting my fingure, love bite.
Other thing about this is always wondered if men are really happy when their wife gets pregnant. Any man really wants sex for children or its just unexpected outcome and has to accept ? Women get excited it appears as women worked under me always told me as best news to them but I never got excited too much. As good boss I showed them extremely happy but it was no event to me and their husbands. When young women approached me to have opinion about their possible husbands, they always told me he can be good husband and FATHER and he will look after children etc.. While men always said she is pretty, intelligent etc they never said will be good mother. Is this common or I am drawing wrong conclusions.
Any way this topics are not for me.
good afternoon. Good may month.++++

I have a question:

Is slum prostitution and its implications much different from other inhuman physical labour such as running a cycle-rickshaw? And Why? Is it because labour of the private parts is immoral while labour of the lungs is not?

Just a silly question since I`m curious. If the issue is being dissected, let`s dissect the tissue.

Swarrier?

``Now, what about the children? Legalising the profession is fine, however the confines of a brothel is hardly the area to rear a child. How are we going to take care of them? We cannot separate them from their mothers,....``(swarrier)

Sw - yes we can -- we can separate the children from their mothers.....

......same as we do in the United States under state child welfare laws -- if the child is being abused mentally or physically -- or child home environment is unhealthy in any way -- either the doctors will call the police -- or the neighbors will call the county social worker -- and the child will be separated from the parents and given to foster parent care.

In fact the fear of losing the child may be an incentive for a sex worker mother -- either not to get pregnant -- or find something better to do to earn her living.....

Re: # 53
AhmedMadani and GT
I have to say I was in error about the Kama Sutra. I have Alain Danielou`s translation and Part 2 , chapters 1 to 10 deal with the sexual act(s).

I think Nasah has put it very nicely why we need to legalise prostitution.

I would tend to agree with Khurram that the vast number of sex workers are in the business to put food on the table. Of course once in the profession some may stick to it voluntarily due to the economics involved. They may not want to be rehabilitated. After all courtesans were and probably are today in some societies very accomplished women. They may be perfectly happy the way they are and may not care about our moral stance.

Now, what about the children? Legalising the profession is fine, however the confines of a brothel is hardly the area to rear a child. How are we going to take care of them? We cannot separate them from their mothers, but how do we ensure that they do not get affected by their parents dealings?

Re: # 51 by FV

There is eve teasing and there is vulgar eve teasing. Eve (Adam) teasing could be an art, at lot of it has been immortalized through poetry, then there is ritualization - sangeet etc. Even vulgarity has been ritualized. I had been to a `tribal` marriage, when the groom came in profanities were hurled at the party except through beautiful (folk) songs.

#53 by ahmedmadani

Sir, why is it that you always leave me speechless?

#54 khurram,

Thanks for the reply. I need some time to get back.

Re GT#43,

I do agree with the Swedish approach, especially since it places great emphasis on re-habilitating the victim.
I consider prostitution analogous to selling of organs for profit. Some things in life should be beyond economic transactions.

Re: # 44,46 I read both response and have no direct comment for or against.
Honestly recently why such bad topics here can not fathom.
Now about book ``K.Sutra``.The book was written by sage for help to humanity. It is understandable and astonishing to have such clear cut book which appeared thousands of years before same appeared in Europe in Indian continent.Some may criticise book as mechanical and that is just wrong reading.
Sage Vatsysan ( we find diiferent spellings- Indian can put exact spelling and how it is pronounced) clearly emphasized the mental aspect of sex. He warns readers to understand most important organ in sex act is located between eyes , the brain ( not between legs).
He mentions different sex acts such as mechanical, visual and at highest level mental.
The ancient sex teachers from Pakistan ( Or India you can pick any) were wise people in this matter and were masters at roll breathing, progressive muscle relaxation which is stressed by modern doctors. In one text it is described as when all world goes to sleep the Yogi is awake and tormented and thinking about world and his own desires and he obtains control on his mind.They considerd at that time sex act as intelluctual act of high order and achieve pleasurable and sublimation as highest order, it should linguer for hours. In one old sex book it warns the reader that sex act will only be pleasurable and for long time only with man or woman of great intelligence as mental and sexual awareness should be at same level or will lead to after taste of sorrow and cheated feeling.( corrollary can be both stupids can be very happy also?) About prostitutes ( both male and female) they warn that its fast but not subtle. Also another text warns males to be aware of women`s nature and not be sexual all time as it says woman is sex partner for very short time but is nurturing person and even mother to men most of time. Any way why they write about prostitutes and dirty subjects I do not know but sex sells . Its all not necessary here as we are good people and never visit prostitutes.

the profession of selling bodies -- and the profession of selling God -- are both very ancient -- since the inception of human civilization -- at times hard to distinguish from each other

both professions are dangerous to human health -- but also both have provided comfort to restless human bodies and souls -- yet both have been at loggerheads with each other.

but that was then and this is now --

now that we have HIV and its mercurial chameleon virus -- the Mother of all temperamental Killers -- against whose ever changing antigenic moods -- it is almost impossible to make vaccines -- the professionals in God`s business must come to terms with the reality of prostitution and accept it as a fact of normal human life --

we simply can no longer continue to dehumanize it -- instead we need to physiologize it -- as part of our natural excretory systems -- for which we build elaborate rest rooms and sparkling urinals.

if not for heavens sake -- for our Health sake -- not criminalize it -- LEGALIZE it -- not demonize it -- EDUCATIONALIZE it -- not dehumanize it -- SOCIAILIZE it -- not demoralize it -- MEDICALIZE it --

.......as the Scandinavians have done it.....with the lowest incidence of HIV.

and leave it to the people to choose for themselves -- as Ghalib would say -- jisko ho jaan-o dil aziz -- uskee galee meiN jai KeoN....period.

#44 by GT

[On a slightly different issue. Do you get the vibe that we (South Asians and perhaps many Americans) associate sex with only the act of penetration? Sex associated with glancing, talking, singing, eating, drinking, touching etc. is hardly perceived and when perceived, the perception induces guilt! This in India! What went wrong? Definitely not the fault of the Muslims....definitely not.....Nizamuddin, Khusro....These guys LOVED God. Must have been Victorian ethics.]

Yes and no.

If I restrict myself to the subject here, then penetration is the only definition. In these cases, the guilt is manifest in the `illegitimacy`.

But in the outside society, it is prevalent -- what we strangely term `eve-teasing` when it is unwanted and negative. Dancing and drinking are very much associated with sex, whether it was nautch girls (in my earlier board I had written, ``Nautch girls have existed and sought patronage; these patrons decided on the fate of art and culture during their time``) or dance bars.

Of course, it is not the fault of the Muslims -- but from the examples you gave, the problem with loving god was sublimation. When we talk about history, we dignify it as `art`; it is less to do with guilt and more to do with regret!

[As I think about it, I am starting to take Urstruly seriously....We need Universities where we will be re-taught how to perceive and be comfortable with (if not enjoy) sex.]

Urstruly has given another POV, but I don`t think he had this in mind. In his ideal university, if a person scored a C minus, she would be a candidate for stoning/beheading! I do not think his theory of natural selection could work because there is already an imposition of rules.

- - -

Re: # 49:

[``Sharaafat nazron aur lafzoun mein nahin, zehen mein hoti hai… ``

In that case, has anyone ever come across a single individual on this planet who can claim to be `shareef`? If we find one, we should lock him up in a glass cage and display him as at a museum as an Area 51 specimen!]

I am not this cynical...and the idea is not to accept other people`s claims or third-party judgments. It has to be one zehen to another..yeh sharaafat ki baat hai, baghaawat ki baat nahin!

hamidm # 42 ``prostitution is probably as common in pakistan as in any other country and from what i see and hear``

So legalizing prostitution would mean that we face up to the fact that prostitution exists in Pakistan and that prostitutes would get better healthcare and other benefits etc. Why stop at that? Why not legalize child prostitution as well? That way we can ensure that children who are brought from Nepal and Bangladesh etc get healthcare and other benefits as well. Why deny the child prostitutes the rights we want to accord to the adult prostitutes? This way we can minimize the children`s exploitation by setting up minimum wages etc.

Sometimes the line between sex prostitutes and the intellectual prostitutes thins dangerously.

Re: # 39
``Sharaafat nazron aur lafzoun mein nahin, zehen mein hoti hai… ``

In that case, has anyone ever come across a single individual on this planet who can claim to be `shareef`? If we find one, we should lock him up in a glass cage and display him as at a museum as an Area 51 specimen!

Re: # 47

Oh wait , if that`s what you meant, social discourse leading to petitions, petitions to debates in parliament, debates leading to bills, bills leading to legislation , then I`m all for it.
I was thinking along the lines of all talk and no action. Sorry.

Re: # 46

swarrier,

Thanks.

If social discourse, in a democracy, fails in inducing legalization then we loose. We accept this loss and go ahead discussing. That is all there is to it.

Re: # 44

GT
There are two chapters of the Kama Sutra that you should read. I`ll have to look it up to find out which ones. They are the only ones that deal with sex , in that tome. . Now there sex is not just associated with penetration. -)

By the way the tone of the Kama Sutra is so pedantic that it should be the Calmer Sutra (Punch).

As for your debate , in terms of the government laying down the law, I think it will be better even though dictatorial. Social discourse will lead to debate, debates will lead to still more debates and precious little will get done.

Re: #45
Urstruly
Legalising prostitution does not mean the government will take over. A licensed shopkeeper or a doctor is not a government employee. I must say that in India though with all those ministers getting caught with their pants down on camera or elsewhere, means that it is a distinct possibility.
However legalising means there will be better exposure to medical care, less black-ma(i)l(e)ing, abduction of children from countries like Nepal, etc more humane conditions ..... This could be a pipe dream but who knows.

As for the rest of your post, again , I hope you have your tongue firmly in your cheek. I don`t think your theory is quite in accordance with Darwin. -)

Re: # 42

There is no reason to get into a tizzy on this important issue. I am only trying to understand the details of it. As devil is in the details, please explain it to me, that if governments legalizes prostitution, then wouldn`t it be effectively taking control of the business. All the pimps would be out of the business and jobs. As the prostitutes would start paying taxes they would demand protection for their businesses (i.e. there personal selves), reasonable working hours, and limited number of rides per day. So with all these caviates a government would not find the business prospect so profitable as it originally thought and mindless activists led them to beleive. And what about unions and strikes. I tell you, it is a bad idea. You know what happend to auto business because of the unions. I know government will then hastly re-privatize the business under pressure from the forces of Globalization and seek private investors. By doing that we will be back to square one. It is a no brainer who will take over the business again - the pimps of course. And this time the capitalist pimps will be cruel. With age of trade unions long gone. The poor sex workers will be left helpless in front of ravenous speculators and prospectors. Bad idea. I say let the nature takes it course. If this profession is good for human evolution the process of natural selection will take over and prostitutes will become dominant specie. And if it is not good for human evolution, then beheadings and stonnings will take care of the pests.

Re: # 39 by FV

FV,

On a slightly different issue. Do you get the vibe that we (South Asians and perhaps many Americans) associate sex with only the act of penetration? Sex associated with glancing, talking, singing, eating, drinking, touching etc. is hardly perceived and when perceived, the perception induces guilt! This in India! What went wrong? Definitely not the fault of the Muslims....definitely not.....Nizamuddin, Khusro....These guys LOVED God. Must have been Victorian ethics. As I think about it, I am starting to take Urstruly seriously....We need Universities where we will be re-taught how to perceive and be comfortable with (if not enjoy) sex.

Re: # 37

Khurram,

Very interesting. I never even thought about this rule. Shall read the reference with care. In the mean time, it would be nice to know about your perspective.

#38 arstoo,

To add to what you say, I think legalization will help our sisters propect themselves. Definitely, people who need protection will welcome all the help that come their way. Having said that, may I add the possibility that some people (male and female) may wan`t to sell sex of their own free will. Legalization may protect them too. As my letters to Urstruly indicate, I am not against the selling or buying of sex per se. Specially, safe and good quality sex. I understand that some others will be strictly against this aspect.

#39 FV.

There is no question about it, the points you make are valid. From what I can make out, your concerns are with the feasibility of implementation. These concerns have to be looked at thoroughly. In particular, correct me if I am wrong, you seem to be saying that implementation will go out of the window if there is no will to implement. I agree and that is why I am for democratic legalization and that too after extensive debate. Having said that, I agree with you that there is no will for an extensive debate even in Chowk forget India and Pakistan. Nevertheless, and you will agree, that the debate till now has not been that bad :-)

#40 swarrier

While top down institutionalization has worked in the past, I believe that it is not possible given the changed polity of our times. Even if it is possible, as I mentioned to FV above, there will be problems in implementing the law if it is not preceeded by some awareness. Finally, I am ideologically opposed to dictatorial impositions. Do not get me wrong, I know that many such impositions could be good. It is simply that I feel queesy about it - you see I am wary about the powers of the State.

# 42 hamidm2

I cannot disagree :-)

Re: # 35

GT,

...... excellent posts, and i agree that pakis can do anything better than the horrible hindoos if we put our mind to it ! ....... in the area of male prostitution we are perhaps the leaders in the world; nobody comes close to matching the ``nadas`` of bannu and mardan - the only competition they have are the graduates of the local madrassas ........

...... anyway, a lot of pakistanis, like urstruly, like to think that social issues like prostitution, homosexuality, incest, beastiality and petty theft exist only in dar-ul-harb and muslim societies are somehow immune ......... and if they do exist, they have simple solutions to solve them : petty thieves get their hands chopped off; homosexuals get stoned; and animals that engage in beastiality are ostracized - as in the case of dogs and pigs ......... i assume that their solution to getting rid of prostitution is for good momins to take in a couple of sex workers as wives or concubines ....... and if that doesn`t work there is always the optioin of public stoning, lashing and beheading .......

....... but regardless of what they think, prostitution is probably as common in pakistan as in any other country and from what i see and hear, it seems to be growing faster than the gdp ....... when i was growing up (not that i am done with it yet), the business was restricted to the red light areas like hira mandi, patoki, dhok ratta, kasai gali, napier road etc., but now it seems that the business has spread out to other areas including the posh parts of town ........

....... in any case, even though legalization is a good idea it is a pipe dream, at least in the case of pakistan, where we are still struggling with the concept of dogs as pets ........... the best we can hope for is for some ngo to take on the mission of providing health care and eductation to these women and their children so that they can break out of this vicious circle .............

#39
Farzana
{{{{Sharaafat nazron aur lafzoun mein nahin, zehen mein hoti hai}}

That is the best quote by Farzana.

Re: # 27
GT
Why should the government not step in with a law that legalises prostitution? I believe the British banning Sati was a good thing. Once it is the law it becomes all the more difficult to practise something against it. The social stigma against prostitution, in my opinion, will always cause a roadblock in any attempt to legalise it. Do you think social discourse will lead to prompt legalisation? I do not.

In these cases especially with the large health risks involved (AIDS) it is important to act as quickly as possible. At least legalisation will mean better medical care/prevention etc. There are still things that will escape the net of legislation, but there has to be a start somewhere.

Social discourse will go on forever because a vast majority of the people will say, ``oh that`s not our problem.``

GT, Faruk (also dmji,hamidm, arstoo, khurram on the same subject):

Response to #27 by GT:

You are right about points 3 and 4 and the need for a debate (but just watch how concerned citizens who complain that Chowk is full of Indo-Pak shouting matches veer towards the new piece!)…however, to get to the other points you have raised, I’d like to play devil’s advocate…

[(2) Yes, legalization of prostitution may generate adverse incentives. But adverse incentives may be of two kinds.
First, what is adverse could well be a moral judgement]

The flipside could be that because it is legal there is no moral judgment. E.g. lotteries (no one calls it gambling). Re. children not being ostracised for the mother’s profession, I would personally not like a situation where the kids are cocooned from the ‘shadow’ of the mother and she is disowned by them. A likely scenario that comes with any ‘outing’.

[Second, adverse incentives may occur when a person is forced to choose when she is not capable of choosing. But this is an issue of legal implementation. Such implementation is easier (not perfect) when prostitution itself is legal. For example, abstracting from concerns related to social stigma, if prostitution were to be legal then it would become easier for a twenty year old prostitute to sue her neighbour who forced her to become a prostitute at the age of thirteen.]

Noble in thought, but not implementable. Say, it is legal…a young unlettered girl can be made to join the profession and even sign (give her thumb impression) and validate her consent.

Now, coming to the other point, how would a woman prove that she was forced into it? Would her neighbour still be available? (Most just disappear after they have sold the girl)? What evidence will she be able to produce, as many of them are disowned by their families back home? If she does decide to sue a year after it is legalised, would there be aspersions cast on her delayed reaction and would that go against her case?

[(1) Let me start from black maketeering in prostitution after it has become legal. This is again a concern related to the implementation of law. In India, a large proportion of rationed cereals was and is sold in the black market. But, the proportion which is sold legally does help a sub-section of the poor. Over time implementation has improved and that is because it is illegal to sell in the black (normal) market to start with. Had subsidized cereals not been legal the growing sub-section of the poor would not have benifitted.]

I think this is not quite an accurate comparison. The cereal market is meant to benefit the poor and the rationing is for them. In the case of sex work, the black-marketing would be done by authority figures; the women would not have control. You must be aware that a good deal of the ration stock is hidden by the shopkeepers and sold at market rates to the rich.

[Finally, let me come to the hardest problem of all - that of social stigma. Social stigma is the outcome of the morality of the dominant (not necessarily majority) social group. The problem with social stigma is as follows - because of social stigma prostitution may not be legalized in a democracy. Since, I am against dictatorial imposition I do not know the solution. At best, I can suggest a social discourse on it. And as I said in (3) above, finally two groups will agree to disagree. I only hope that the language developed in the discourse makes the group, in favour of legalization, a majority. We can learn from Rammohan Roy`s fight against Sati. But insted of a law being forced on the population (as was done by the Brits.) I prefer a democratic resolution.]

All laws are enforced and come from the top; polls are not conducted on specifics. You just said that due to social stigma it cannot be legalised in a democracy…how, then, can you opt for a democratic resolution? So, we would be back to square one. But, as you said earlier, this is an ongoing process of sensitising people…
- - -
#32, 34 by Urstruly:

[I only questioned the motives of those non-prostitutes who are not only hell bent on imposing GST on these poor self-employed souls but also do not tell me their own going rate. They do not even tell me anything about their plans with their daughters (if any) and when they are turning their house into a taxi stand.]

I am assuming these are exceedingly crucial questions that have been worrying you for a while now. Let me try and answer some…

1. Most of the CSWs are not self-employed.
2. Non-prostitutes are not forcing these women, at least not across the board…many of them are forced into it by their own relatives; what women from other fields (you mean NGOs and feminists) are doing is asking for them to be given a right to conduct the work there are in – due to circumstances or voluntarily – with control.
3. It is not incumbent on women not in the sex trade to reveal their going rate as they have not claimed to be in the reckoning. Incidentally, do you apply the same standards for all men or only gigolos?
4. You should also ask these women what their plans for their sons are, too.

[Now we are going somewhere. I further propose that, since everything starts with good education, all business schools and universities should also start courses like ``Sexual Services Entreprenuership``. That way the general population, who is kept ignorant of the intricacies and profitability of this business would learn and new and better blood, blue blood if I might add, will enter into the workforce.]

In Amsterdam, there is a school that teaches the women about the ‘how tos’. Re. blue blood, scientifically there is no connection. Although, historically, it was blue-blooded men who were the biggest patrons; and they knew the potential long before your NYSE idea. But, of course, you seem to revel in the fantasy…

[Farzana will write an article with the plight of a little boy who endures the taunts of his neighbors with sentences like ``Yeh saali uss sharif aurat ke beta hay, moi aaj tak apne shohar ke alawa kissi ke saath nahin soi``]

Sharaafat nazron aur lafzoun mein nahin, zehen mein hoti hai…
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#36 by Subroto:

[Also Farzana do you know of or have details of any such organisation where can we at least contribute monetarily.]

Since you are not in India, I would suggest you contact Action Aid, as it has branches internationally, so you can keep track of contributions and also choose how it is to be used. I am giving you their India address and those of a few others:

ActionAid India
C-88, N.D.S.E-II
New Delhi 110049

St Catherine`s Home
Veerabhai Desai Road,
Andheri West, Mumbai,
Maharashtra,
India

Prerna
Kamathipura Municipal School,
7th Lane, Shuklaji Street,
Kamathipura, Bombay,
Maharashtra, India

Aasha Mahila Samstha
Gaurabai Clinic (Dawakhana),
13th Lane, Kamathipura,
Nagpada Junction, Mumbai,
Maharashtra, India

Dear Farzana

I feel that legalisation of the profession is first step and it must be done to bring these ladies into national mainstream. Once that is done then they can demand their rights legally and use the courts and parliament for that.

These ladies are an integral part of society and as a society we have a duty of care towards them without bringing the vaginal morality in to the discussion at all.

The question is not what type of profession they are in, the question is that whether there are in safeguards for them in their profession protecting their haelth ( physical & mental ) and whether their children have access to education and ability to choose out of this trade.

Of late India happens to have lot of sex tourism and we must protect our sisters.

An alternative to legalization,

http://www.justicewomen.com/cj_sweden.html

``In 1999, after years of research and study, Sweden passed legislation that a) criminalizes the buying of sex, and b) decriminalizes the selling of sex``

``In the capital city of Stockholm the number of women in street prostitution has been reduced by two thirds, and the number of johns has been reduced by 80%. There are other major Swedish cities where street prostitution has all but disappeared. ``

``In addition, the number of foreign women now being trafficked into Sweden for sex is nil.``

``In Sweden prostitution is regarded as an aspect of male violence against women and children. It is officially acknowledged as a form of exploitation of women and children and constitutes a significant social problem... gender equality will remain unattainable so long as men buy, sell and exploit women and children by prostituting them.``

Touching and sad. Do you think that legalisation of prostitution would help to provide better rights to sex workers and their families? Also Farzana do you know of or have details of any such organisation where can we at least contribute monetarily.

Re: # 34 by Urstruly,

``I further propose that, since everything starts with good education, all business schools and universities should also start courses like ``Sexual Services Entreprenuership``.``

To start with, simple high school education is enough. If you want to learn about intricacies the best way out is ``learning by doing``. With legal prostitution, it is highly likely that you will have to pay for such learning, unlike now where many experts get by without paying.

``As women will learn the tricks of the trade new companies will emerge, dealing not only in retail but bulk as well. I can bet my sweet ass that the first such company that will go public will register itself in NYSE will have the initials ``SEX``.``

I see no problems with this. Your local newspaper should have daily advertisements from many such companies. In Pakistan and India advertisements are through `gossips` and `legends`. When the time comes for such companies to go public, you should have no problem. Do not buy their stocks.


``Soon the business will balloon into a bubble and just like IT, hindus will beat us again. Who can compete with them with 5 million prostitutes per city and vast experience in BPO. It is simply impossible.``

I suggest that Pakistan not give up without trying. Quality matters. Just because you may not be good at it, does not mean that other Pakistanis are bad at it.

`Farzana will write an article with the plight of a little boy who endures the taunts of his neighbors with sentences like ``Yeh ..... uss sharif aurat ke beta hay, moi aaj tak apne shohar ke alawa kissi ke saath nahin soi`` `

If and when it comes to that, we shall point out that monogamous relationships should not be stigmatized. After all it has existed for such a long time, it is better that we openly accept such relationships as something which simply happens.

Re: # 33

Now we are going somewhere. I further propose that, since everything starts with good education, all business schools and universities should also start courses like ``Sexual Services Entreprenuership``. That way the general population, who is kept ignorant of the intricacies and profitability of this business would learn and new and better blood, blue blood if I might add, will enter into the workforce. As women will learn the tricks of the trade new companies will emerge, dealing not only in retail but bulk as well. I can bet my sweet ass that the first such company that will go public will register itself in NYSE will have the initials ``SEX``. Soon the business will balloon into a bubble and just like IT, hindus will beat us again. Who can compete with them with 5 million prostitutes per city and vast experience in BPO. It is simply impossible. The first company that will register itself in Karachi Stock exchange will have initials ``CHU``. Bush will come to India and Pakistan, but he will only strike a deal of mutual cooperation with only India leaving Musharaf wringing his hands. Dr. Hoodbhoy will write an article at chowk whining that we should have a sexless deal in south Asia. Farzana will write an article with the plight of a little boy who endures the taunts of his neighbors with sentences like ``Yeh saali uss sharif aurat ke beta hay, moi aaj tak apne shohar ke alawa kissi ke saath nahin soi``

#32
Urstruly sahib

I am not lecturing you. Just offering you my humble suggestions in a plain and simple English. Yes, I am glad to see the change in your tone.........which is now more polite towards prostitutes than before.

At least you found a soft corner for those suffering individuals.

These sex workers along with their kids should be given all the rights as other citizens do have.

All these questions are very simple to answer.

All we need is a recognition of this profession along with their kids with the clear mind, NO ifs or buts..............Once they will get their recognition as sex workers, then all these solutions will come up to be solved in seconds.

And, Yes, they can work as a medallion, with cash receipt, with tax deductibles or tax cuts, whatever the situation will be. And, yes they will need a liscence, certification, audit as well. It is just like any other profession..............

This department will be under the ministry of citizen wellfare. Yes, this name is quite right.Title of the minister will be citizen wellfare minsiter.

Why are you making it complicated? If we put our hearts and minds in to this issue I am sure this is possible and this will solve at most 50% of their problems along with their kids...............thanks

Re: # 29

I think you have a problem with reading comprehension. I did not in any way cast a judgement on prostitutes as to whether they are moral or immoral; au contrair I only questioned the motives of those non-prostitutes who are not only hell bent on imposing GST on these poor self-employed souls but also do not tell me their own going rate. They do not even tell me anything about their plans with their daughters (if any) and when they are turning their house into a taxi stand.How much a medallion gonna cost? Hamidm? How are we gonna tax the prostitutes anyway. Will they issue a cash receipt to each customer? How will tax audit take place and who will do the audit. Will rpostitutes be operating out of government outlets? Will government create a new department with dispatchers, controllers and manager? What ministry this department will be under? What would be the title of the minister........I am all questions and you all you have to give me is lectures??

#26 by hamidm2

if necessary, we can even give it religious cover as it was/is done in iran ...........

But a muta`ah every ten minutes would be rather cumbersome ... don`t you think? It`s just easier to legalize and regulate it.

FV,

You stirred up an emotion which transcends the usual India/Pakistan rivalry. Where children are concerned, it is true that ALL children are the same. Somehow, their innocence knocks down all pretensions of grown-ups.

#22
Farzana
I didn`t have chance to read the particular book, now that you are mentioning it must be worth of reading. Arright , I`ll give it a try. Thanks

(Urstruly Sahib)
With all due respect, may I suggest NOT to judge these prostitutes with your own perspective. Who are we to decide they are all bad or all good? Who are we to judge and label`em as,``moral or immoral``? Who are we to measure their existence based on our FATWAS with out realizing that , may be they are far better humans than all of us? Who are we to bound their lives according to our needs , no sir, they have all the right to feel , the very existence of their beings just like we have......................Their kids are as lovable and innocent as your`s...............Thank you.

Re: # 19 by zeemax,

Yes, I am proposing what already exists in Holland.

Re: # 25 by Faruk

Faruk and FV,

Let me immediately accept two assertions : (1) Recognizing prostitution as a trade will not take away the stigma associated with it immediately nor will it stop prostitution outside the legal framework to avoid taxes or other regulatory requirements (FV`s point); (2) Prostitution as a legal trade has problems (Faruk`s point) in the sense that (a) it might provide incentives to a woman to choose prostitution over say the job a secretary; and (b) forced prostitution may be passed off as voluntary prostitution.

I would like to add two other problems: (3) People might have genuine (or hypocitical) moral grounds to oppose this recognition; (4) Pakistan and India have too many other problems to deal with.

I would like to deal with these issues in reverse order.

(4) While Pakistan and India may not be ready for this debate I believe that Chowk is.

(3) This is an issue that can be addressed only through a debate. I am sure there won`t be a resolution in terms of unanimity. People may change sides in this debate and finally the two groups will have to agree to disagree. But more light will be shed on the issue and importantly a LANGUAGE to adress the issue MAY develop. While the issue may not be as important as why more women are not converting to Islam, we Chowkies have not hesitated to hold forth on much more trivial issues like caste lineage etc :-)

(2) Yes, legalization of prostitution may generate adverse incentives. But adverse incentives may be of two kinds.
First, what is adverse could well be a moral judgement, as in (3) above. As far as I am concerned morality is a personal issue. I do not want my daughter to become a Hindutva politician - I find it morally repugnant - but if she choses to be one then all that I can do is not vote for her or oppose her politically, write against her ideology etc. However, it would pain me extremely if her children were to be barred from schools or her children were to be ostracized because of their mother`s profession. Or for that matter, if I were to be socially boycotted because of my daughter`s profession. I should be able to proudly proclaim amongst my friends - Yes, my daughter`s political party is obnoxious but she is a smart politician.
Second, adverse incentives may occur when a person is forced to choose when she is not capable of choosing. But this is an issue of legal implementation. Such implementation is easier (not perfect) when prostitution itself is legal. For example, abstracting from concerns related to social stigma, if prostitution were to be legal then it would become easier for a twenty year old prostitute to sue her neighbour who forced her to become a prostitute at the age of thirteen.

(1) Let me start from black maketeering in prostitution after it has become legal. This is again a concern related to the implementation of law. In India, a large proportion of rationed cereals was and is sold in the black market. But, the proportion which is sold legally does help a sub-section of the poor. Over time implementation has improved and that is because it is illegal to sell in the black (normal) market to start with. Had subsidized cereals not been legal the growing sub-section of the poor would not have benifitted.
Finally, let me come to the hardest problem of all - that of social stigma. Social stigma is the outcome of the morality of the dominant (not necessarily majority) social group. The problem with social stigma is as follows - because of social stigma prostitution may not be legalized in a democracy. Since, I am against dictatorial imposition I do not know the solution. At best, I can suggest a social discourse on it. And as I said in (3) above, finally two groups will agree to disagree. I only hope that the language developed in the discourse makes the group, in favour of legalization, a majority. We can learn from Rammohan Roy`s fight against Sati. But insted of a law being forced on the population (as was done by the Brits.) I prefer a democratic resolution.

I would like to know what others think.

fv,

..... well written and very moving ....... i am not going to argue the morality of prostitution and urstruly`s misogynistic reaction, but we have to accept the fact that it will probably be around as long as men and women are around ............. a logical first step would be to legalize and regulate the profession - if necessary, we can even give it religious cover as it was/is done in iran ...........

Re: GT #10, Farzana #22

Your post on legalizing prostitution and its repercussions.

Well all I can say is that it has been illegal in this country for a while and that has not solved any problems. We have health problems, AIDS is spreading among prostitutes and their patrons. Their children as Farzana has pointed out have their own issues.

Legalizing prostitution has its own problems. They are different problems but I am not sure it’s a panacea to the problem.

Regards,

Faruk

re: Urstruly # 7

“feminnists who promote prostitution as `an un-alienable right of a woman`”

I understand your point, but the feminist agenda is quite broad, it’s a diverse group with different agendas. One of them happens to be the one you mentioned. I also understand that the legislation against it only compounds the problem. In my opinion legislation of morality is a slippery slope and I am not aware of any society that has achieved that balance.


My original question was about what you said in the first post

“across the board is the fact that woman is the worst enemy of other woman - whether it is saas bahu, nand bhawaj, boardroom, bedroom, international forum or.....just fill in the blank.”

I think there is truth in the above statement. But there are women helping each other too. There are a lot of women’s groups that have made grate contributions to women’s rights and general well being.

Regards,

Faruk

Dear Farzana:

Thanks for using your talents to throw spotlight on another dark spot in our society. These prostitutes are something our society cannot do without, yet chooses to ignore them as if they do not exist.

The tragedy is that, whatever their role models, most girls will end up in their mother`s profession and most boys will end up as pimps or working for a ``bhai``.

#1 by Urstruly:

[As far as I know it is a global feminist agenda to promote that prostitution is an unalienable right of a woman. They made it very clear in the Beijing 2000 conference and demanded that this point must be included in the United Nation`s charter of human rights; where they demanded that prostitution be considered as any other profession with health care benefits and pension plan etc.]

I will not argue with you about the feminist agenda; suffice to say that since CSWs exist, it cannot be ignored. For that results in further exploitation. Please understand that this is not just about call girls, but situations where force is used. Health care is of primary importance. You are talking about conferences; talk about the ground reality. How many women have access to any health care? Forget a pension plan, they do not know where their next meal will come from. Many of them are minors – what do they know about their rights?

[In my short life span and living in different cultures what I have found to be the common across the board is the fact that woman is the worst enemy of other woman - whether it is saas bahu, nand bhawaj, boardroom, bedroom, international forum or.....just fill in the blank.]

It is a generalisation, although not entirely untrue. Just as men can be men’s enemies, except they get less emotional about it. But, in the organisation where I was, your contention was confirmed – when the footpath sex workers were asked to send their children to the crèche, the ones in the ‘homes’ objected because they were lower down in status.

Also, many deny their profession, but were more than willing to point out other women’s kids as “woh &%$# ka beta…”.
- - -
#10 by GT:

Your reply to urstruly…

[Furthermore, I absolutely fail to understand why a prostitute should not pay income tax, get social security, etc. Why shouldn`t the client pay value added sales tax which, amongst other things, can be used to fund medical insurance for prostitutes and their families. It is a trade for heaven`s sake. We know that such trade exists. Who are we fooling by not recognising this trade? If you want to restrict such trades, then recognize it first as a trade and then tax it. Stop this blame game and holier than thou attitude. It only increases misery.]

I agree in principle, but what happens when it is not considered legal? I absolutely agree that it should be recognised as a trade, but in countries in our part of the world, the stigma associated even with clients is tremendous. Even in ‘rich’ brothels, they would never agree to such an arrangement. Besides, there is the possibility of an ancillary industry of non-taxable prostitution springing up in no time. The cops would ensure that.
- - -
Zeena:

Thanks for sharing. I have been there, though I did not have time to see too many paintings. I do believe that since most such children have to end up living within the environment, they need to be given non-formal education and to rise above their environmental restrictions.

Have you read Dr. Fouzia Saeed’s book, ‘Taboo’? It deals with the Heera Mandi red-light district.

PS: May I request you address me by name, initials or anything, except my designation? I am a writer and responding in that capacity.

Thank you all for your comments…mainly for empathising with the children. It is always the subjects that bring out whatever the tone and sensitivity in the writing. (swarrier: It was a typo, not deliberate…thanks for pointing it out.)

#3 by zeemax:

[Having said that, it has been my observation that although forced prostitution or that due to extreme poverty exists, still much of it is voluntary. Particularly in affluent societies, it is entirely a matter of choice. Even in societies like ours, the profession runs through generations and more often than not it is the mother who sets the career for the daughters when they are old enough to claim the prized `nath uterwai`.]

In the area I have covered, they have been forced into it, sold in the market; at some point they resign themselves to the situation and do come to terms with it.

These women were keen that their children got an education and I have seen them at the municipal school, where the kids are later sent, waiting like any other anxious mother. Their daughters are, however, eyed by the madams and pimps as potential, and since many of these women are deeply in debt they borrow money from the lenders and get ensnared further, they have little choice.

Indeed, I have met women who are doing this voluntarily, but they belong to a different class. Congress House, notorious for its mujras where even some prominent ministers visited, would classify as such a place.

Btw, the rich yuppies have got into mujras – a sort of neo-feudalism.
- - -
#6 by delhiwala:

[We can all talk about it and feel sentimental. Yet there is nothing that can be done about this unless it comes from top echeleons of the society. Maybe Govt should take over these people and rehabiltate them in real sense, not like Nari Niketans and Anath Ashrams.]

I did try and avoid getting too sentimental, but one cannot change one’s nature…I am afraid the government is not of much help. There is a racket where even those women who have been ‘saved’ are sent to ministers. But there are several NGOs that are doing a tremendous job.
- - -
#9 by jang:

[very furtively written, and please write more, this is good, real, experience writing.]

Furtively? I give you the benefit of doubt about its usage…

[what is their relationship with other women? some of the brothels of bombay are run on the basis of villages where the women come from..e.g. there are aunties who run houses with women from villages in north karnataka. do the kids in these ``homes`` feel more secure or rooted?]

The aunty houses you talk about do have a community feeling, but the children still have the same queries. And the women do follow a hierarchy whereby the fight is who will take over as the next head. One of them told me that it was her greatest ambition, it was like she wanted to finally avenge the wrongs meted out to her by the gharwalli.

On one occasion I visited Talasari village where some of these girls were rehabilitated (I went unannounced because I wanted to see for myself how they were…I had to hitch a ride in a truck halfway from Uran); one young boy lived without his mother who was still working in the city. He ended up calling all the other women his mother. It did seem like any other large commune and sharing an afternoon meal with them made one realise that again this did not seem to be the solution. One of them showed me her very rough hands and said she was not interested in working in the fields. They too feel trapped, and some miss the city.

You have posed many questions and I have reams to write…am glad that my note-hoarding has not been such a bad idea and I may work on a series – for the whole atmosphere changes between day and night.

Farzana,
you really made me sad.
it would be far better if nature had created men only and world would have free of all this non sense

#10 by GT

Furthermore, I absolutely fail to understand why a prostitute should not pay income tax, get social security, etc. Why shouldn`t the client pay value added sales tax which, amongst other things, can be used to fund medical insurance for prostitutes and their families. It is a trade for heaven`s sake.

GT, Netherlands does just that. It is a `recognised` profession eligible for mortgage lending and all else. And I don`t see Netherlands degenerating into a moral abyss anytime soon.

Definitely, this business must not be allowed to remain underground like an unattended, festering sore.

On side note:-
“The ultimate tragedy is not the oppression and cruelty by the bad people but the silence over that by the good people.”
Martin Luther K

Dear Chief Editor
Yes, your article showed us a new face of a hidden tragedy which only a sensitive mind and soul can feel with the depth of her sensitivity. Being sensitive in insensitive and indifferent world, your sensitivity couldn`t shake off emotions easily and you came up with this tragic article which has touched my soul deeply.

Your article depicts the dreams and desperation of life in these brothels through a poignant journey that clearly takes me back to my lane of memories when first time I went to see Iqbal Hussain`s ,``Cuckoo`s Nest,`` a restaurant in the haveli inside Heera Mandi, his home. Iqbal Hussain is the leading artist and professor in NCA(National college of arts Lahore) a very prestigious institutions of Pakistan. Iqbal Hussain is the son of a prostitute , born and raised in Heera Mandi who has no official father with out any family name to carry as a badge of identity. He has become a new identity for those fatherless miserable children of Heera Mandi, he is their voice , who is tough and at the sametime extremely artistic.
Cuckoo`s Nest was originally the residential brothel of his mother , which is decorated with Heera mandi`s real paintings and also of his aunts and his mother`s intermixed with Mary, Buddha and hanuman , all paintings are done by Iqbal Hussain, a proud son of a Prostitue called Nawab Jan.
Cuckoo`s Nest has now become the elitest place in the heart of Heera mandi.Heera Mandi has now transformed in to a ghetto with Iqbal Hussain`s Cuckoo`s Nest and his paintings which portray the lives of all those prostitutes from different angles and perspectives with a background music of gunghroos and Tablas in a smokey environment with the best and the tastiest food and Paan in the town.Iqbal`s paintings are sold as much as 5,000 pounds and more.


What touched me the most was a gloomy sadness in Iqbal`s Paintings with all the background of bright scheme of colors. Iqbal tells stories of different prostitues through his paintings that how they were trapped in this vicious circle of tortured reality , almost all of them came out of poverty.Iqbal also shows his feelings openly through his paintings as a caption, that if he weren`t a painter , he would have committed suicide. He helps as many women as possible to escape Heera mandi and not only that he has started a home for other fatherless kids from Heera mandi and a food street for prostitutes who wish to quit their profession with an alternative for living.

There are two categories of prostitutes,a):- Who do prostitution with their full consent with out any external pressure, this is called profession, which must be legalized and their fatherless kids must be given every right to have access to all the pleaures of life as their other counterparts have.

b):- Who do prostitution with out their free will and are forced in to it, their bad luck. They are miserable and they are the ones who need social help the most along with their fatherless children.

Who will help them in this despair and despondancy? May be another Professor Iqbal Hussain....................

When you follow thoughts, you produce great work and when thought follows an agenda you misjudge people in not knowing the truth. Your piece on Banares Blasts was good this one is a masterpiece but attack on Amartya Sen was frivolous.

Versey,

You must admit to yourself that you are better in descriptive narrative than trying to analyse them.

`The biggest problem was: how do you ask a five-year-old what prostitution is?`

Why can`t you bring yourself to explaining the situation in a cold manner? Do emotions get in the way? Have you resolved the situation in a calculated manner in your own head? Do you need HP to explain it to you since you won`t listen to kaka?

`That they managed to even articulate anything was amazing.`

Why would you say that? How can `knowing` that their mothers are getting invaded in her privates, control their articulation. These are the stigmas of a middle-class mentality. In some ways, that is the source of most angst..

a courageous moving piece -- Farzana at her best penwomanship -- bravo!

a couragous moving piece -- Farzana at her best penwomanship -- bravo!

Farzana:

You should make a documentary out of it. If you are interested, I can consider financing such a documentary, and distribution.

Anil

Re: # 7 by Urstruly,

Urstruly sahib,

You say:

``I don`t know what to think about their causes anymore because they keep on confusing me. ``

I say:

``Try a bit harder to understand.``

Urstruly etc.,

The article, as far as I understand is not so much about prostitutes but about the children of prostitutes. It does not take a rocket scientist to understand that these children did not choose their parents. Yes, some of the prostitutes may have chosen to have children (as the article notes) but the rationale behind this choice (as mentioned in the article) is not very different from that of other mothers. Or fathers for that matter. The article provides a peek at the emotional lives of children born to poor prostitutes. The author, as well as readers, may feel sad that they do not have a `home`. However, the author has not rushed ahead and offered a solution. If we readers are to discuss a solution to ease our `pain` then let me start by asserting that blaming and banning prostitution is not the solution. It has not worked for centuries. Furthermore, I absolutely fail to understand why a prostitute should not pay income tax, get social security, etc. Why shouldn`t the client pay value added sales tax which, amongst other things, can be used to fund medical insurance for prostitutes and their families. It is a trade for heaven`s sake. We know that such trade exists. Who are we fooling by not recognising this trade? If you want to restrict such trades, then recognize it first as a trade and then tax it. Stop this blame game and holier than thou attitude. It only increases misery.

very furtively written, and please write more, this is good, real, experience writing.

what is their relationship with other women? some of the brothels of bombay are run on the basis of villages where the women come from..e.g. there are aunties who run houses with women from villages in north karnataka. do the kids in these ``homes`` feel more secure or rooted?

lamington rd has several brothels which share naighbor-spaces with electronics merchants and their store-rooms. in early evening (when rest of the market is still alive and before the serious dhanda-time begins) you can see the women with their kids do aarti-puja in their living rooms and watch their favorite TV serials..it looks almost a normal house except with a lot of women.

FarzanaVersey {``They have nowhere to go. Only a mother to call their own. But even their mothers have too many men to cater too. ‘Fathers’ who keep coming in and out of the mother’s room as the children sit back and watch life being played out. They can call none of these men their father. No man will take the child away from here to lead them into the sunlight, the bright world where other children live.``}

Farzana,
Yet again your versatility and creativity has depressingly captured the fact that prostitution is NOT a victimless crime. After reading this article, who can defend prostitution as a God-given right for women? While not pleasant reading, your article has masterfully brought to life the daily tragedies in these young lives. The plight of the children and the helplessness of the women as they become trapped in this cruel and vicious cycle are extremely sad. I once saw a documentary about the children of prostitutes in India and how this curse affected their young tender lives in a very corroding and harsh manner. I think that this article captures the atmosphere of the debris found in places such as Grant Road and Tijuana. Beautifully written and presented with great sensitivity. Thanks.

Re: # 5 Faruk Sahib

I have tried it many times and got the same result. I have asked many western and eastern feminnists who promote prostitution as `an un-alienable right of a woman` as to what their own going rate is and everytime they turn into vicious cats. One time it really hurt me but I had to do it when I asked such a feminist as to when was she sending her 5 year old daughter to the Hira Mandi for schooling but she replied in some kind words about the woman of my household. I don`t know what to think about their causes anymore because they keep on confusing me.

#5 faruk you touch upon a sensitive topic and spot. I wait to see the answer

Very sad, I admit that I almost gave up reading this article half-way thorough as it was so touching and I rellay don`t need more emotions in my life presently.

But what can we do?

We can all talk about it and feel sentimental. Yet there is nothing that can be done about this unless it comes from top echeleons of the society. Maybe Govt should take over these people and rehabiltate them in real sense, not like Nari Niketans and Anath Ashrams.

Sad article indeed.

Good Job Farzana for covering this.

Re: Urstruly#1

“In my short life span and living in different cultures what I have found to be the common across the board is the fact that woman is the worst enemy of other woman - whether it is saas bahu, nand bhawaj, boardroom, bedroom, international forum or.....just