No Ground Beneath Their Feet

#44 by GT

[On a slightly different issue. Do you get the vibe that we (South Asians and perhaps many Americans) associate sex with only the act of penetration? Sex associated with glancing, talking, singing, eating, drinking, touching etc. is hardly perceived and when perceived, the perception induces guilt! This in India! What went wrong? Definitely not the fault of the Muslims....definitely not.....Nizamuddin, Khusro....These guys LOVED God. Must have been Victorian ethics.]

Yes and no.

If I restrict myself to the subject here, then penetration is the only definition. In these cases, the guilt is manifest in the `illegitimacy`.

But in the outside society, it is prevalent -- what we strangely term `eve-teasing` when it is unwanted and negative. Dancing and drinking are very much associated with sex, whether it was nautch girls (in my earlier board I had written, ``Nautch girls have existed and sought patronage; these patrons decided on the fate of art and culture during their time``) or dance bars.

Of course, it is not the fault of the Muslims -- but from the examples you gave, the problem with loving god was sublimation. When we talk about history, we dignify it as `art`; it is less to do with guilt and more to do with regret!

[As I think about it, I am starting to take Urstruly seriously....We need Universities where we will be re-taught how to perceive and be comfortable with (if not enjoy) sex.]

Urstruly has given another POV, but I don`t think he had this in mind. In his ideal university, if a person scored a C minus, she would be a candidate for stoning/beheading! I do not think his theory of natural selection could work because there is already an imposition of rules.

- - -

Re: # 49:

[``Sharaafat nazron aur lafzoun mein nahin, zehen mein hoti hai… ``

In that case, has anyone ever come across a single individual on this planet who can claim to be `shareef`? If we find one, we should lock him up in a glass cage and display him as at a museum as an Area 51 specimen!]

I am not this cynical...and the idea is not to accept other people`s claims or third-party judgments. It has to be one zehen to another..yeh sharaafat ki baat hai, baghaawat ki baat nahin!

Re: # 51 by FV

There is eve teasing and there is vulgar eve teasing. Eve (Adam) teasing could be an art, at lot of it has been immortalized through poetry, then there is ritualization - sangeet etc. Even vulgarity has been ritualized. I had been to a `tribal` marriage, when the groom came in profanities were hurled at the party except through beautiful (folk) songs.

#53 by ahmedmadani

Sir, why is it that you always leave me speechless?

#54 khurram,

Thanks for the reply. I need some time to get back.

Re: # 55

Dear Mr.GT....I am really sorry if I disturbed your sensibilities. I just wrote as the KS is not understood correctly. I am very kind person and feel very sad if I trouble anybody.I am regretful about my remarks and acquiesce and agree and consent quitely without protest but without enthusiasm, my remarks were not in good taste. I hope people will forgive me for my inadverdent remarks. I suffer through mental depression and that leads to loss of mental balance, again sorry. I think when write about S connected things leads to mistake. Earlier also one young woman called me pervert etc and it was sad feeling for me. I was and am very happy for few days as my old cat has returned after disappearing for 13 days and feel like returning of child to father. I thought he is dead as he normally goes out for 3 days max but 13 days was too much. I think he was starving as his fur is looking old tired but with good food and codliver oil soon all fur will get glorious. I gave him bath and combed and brushed his teeth ( my daughter has sent me a fingure cap type stuff and you brush teeth, idiot protests but my animal doctor friend showed me how to do it and works good, and he showed gratitude by slowy biting my fingure, love bite.
Other thing about this is always wondered if men are really happy when their wife gets pregnant. Any man really wants sex for children or its just unexpected outcome and has to accept ? Women get excited it appears as women worked under me always told me as best news to them but I never got excited too much. As good boss I showed them extremely happy but it was no event to me and their husbands. When young women approached me to have opinion about their possible husbands, they always told me he can be good husband and FATHER and he will look after children etc.. While men always said she is pretty, intelligent etc they never said will be good mother. Is this common or I am drawing wrong conclusions.
Any way this topics are not for me.
good afternoon. Good may month.++++

Re: # 39 by FV

FV,

On a slightly different issue. Do you get the vibe that we (South Asians and perhaps many Americans) associate sex with only the act of penetration? Sex associated with glancing, talking, singing, eating, drinking, touching etc. is hardly perceived and when perceived, the perception induces guilt! This in India! What went wrong? Definitely not the fault of the Muslims....definitely not.....Nizamuddin, Khusro....These guys LOVED God. Must have been Victorian ethics. As I think about it, I am starting to take Urstruly seriously....We need Universities where we will be re-taught how to perceive and be comfortable with (if not enjoy) sex.

Re: # 44

GT
There are two chapters of the Kama Sutra that you should read. I`ll have to look it up to find out which ones. They are the only ones that deal with sex , in that tome. . Now there sex is not just associated with penetration. -)

By the way the tone of the Kama Sutra is so pedantic that it should be the Calmer Sutra (Punch).

As for your debate , in terms of the government laying down the law, I think it will be better even though dictatorial. Social discourse will lead to debate, debates will lead to still more debates and precious little will get done.

Re: #45
Urstruly
Legalising prostitution does not mean the government will take over. A licensed shopkeeper or a doctor is not a government employee. I must say that in India though with all those ministers getting caught with their pants down on camera or elsewhere, means that it is a distinct possibility.
However legalising means there will be better exposure to medical care, less black-ma(i)l(e)ing, abduction of children from countries like Nepal, etc more humane conditions ..... This could be a pipe dream but who knows.

As for the rest of your post, again , I hope you have your tongue firmly in your cheek. I don`t think your theory is quite in accordance with Darwin. -)

Re: # 46

swarrier,

Thanks.

If social discourse, in a democracy, fails in inducing legalization then we loose. We accept this loss and go ahead discussing. That is all there is to it.

Re: # 47

Oh wait , if that`s what you meant, social discourse leading to petitions, petitions to debates in parliament, debates leading to bills, bills leading to legislation , then I`m all for it.
I was thinking along the lines of all talk and no action. Sorry.

Dear Farzana

I feel that legalisation of the profession is first step and it must be done to bring these ladies into national mainstream. Once that is done then they can demand their rights legally and use the courts and parliament for that.

These ladies are an integral part of society and as a society we have a duty of care towards them without bringing the vaginal morality in to the discussion at all.

The question is not what type of profession they are in, the question is that whether there are in safeguards for them in their profession protecting their haelth ( physical & mental ) and whether their children have access to education and ability to choose out of this trade.

Of late India happens to have lot of sex tourism and we must protect our sisters.

An alternative to legalization,

http://www.justicewomen.com/cj_sweden.html

``In 1999, after years of research and study, Sweden passed legislation that a) criminalizes the buying of sex, and b) decriminalizes the selling of sex``

``In the capital city of Stockholm the number of women in street prostitution has been reduced by two thirds, and the number of johns has been reduced by 80%. There are other major Swedish cities where street prostitution has all but disappeared. ``

``In addition, the number of foreign women now being trafficked into Sweden for sex is nil.``

``In Sweden prostitution is regarded as an aspect of male violence against women and children. It is officially acknowledged as a form of exploitation of women and children and constitutes a significant social problem... gender equality will remain unattainable so long as men buy, sell and exploit women and children by prostituting them.``

Re: # 37

Khurram,

Very interesting. I never even thought about this rule. Shall read the reference with care. In the mean time, it would be nice to know about your perspective.

#38 arstoo,

To add to what you say, I think legalization will help our sisters propect themselves. Definitely, people who need protection will welcome all the help that come their way. Having said that, may I add the possibility that some people (male and female) may wan`t to sell sex of their own free will. Legalization may protect them too. As my letters to Urstruly indicate, I am not against the selling or buying of sex per se. Specially, safe and good quality sex. I understand that some others will be strictly against this aspect.

#39 FV.

There is no question about it, the points you make are valid. From what I can make out, your concerns are with the feasibility of implementation. These concerns have to be looked at thoroughly. In particular, correct me if I am wrong, you seem to be saying that implementation will go out of the window if there is no will to implement. I agree and that is why I am for democratic legalization and that too after extensive debate. Having said that, I agree with you that there is no will for an extensive debate even in Chowk forget India and Pakistan. Nevertheless, and you will agree, that the debate till now has not been that bad :-)

#40 swarrier

While top down institutionalization has worked in the past, I believe that it is not possible given the changed polity of our times. Even if it is possible, as I mentioned to FV above, there will be problems in implementing the law if it is not preceeded by some awareness. Finally, I am ideologically opposed to dictatorial impositions. Do not get me wrong, I know that many such impositions could be good. It is simply that I feel queesy about it - you see I am wary about the powers of the State.

# 42 hamidm2

I cannot disagree :-)

Touching and sad. Do you think that legalisation of prostitution would help to provide better rights to sex workers and their families? Also Farzana do you know of or have details of any such organisation where can we at least contribute monetarily.

#32
Urstruly sahib

I am not lecturing you. Just offering you my humble suggestions in a plain and simple English. Yes, I am glad to see the change in your tone.........which is now more polite towards prostitutes than before.

At least you found a soft corner for those suffering individuals.

These sex workers along with their kids should be given all the rights as other citizens do have.

All these questions are very simple to answer.

All we need is a recognition of this profession along with their kids with the clear mind, NO ifs or buts..............Once they will get their recognition as sex workers, then all these solutions will come up to be solved in seconds.

And, Yes, they can work as a medallion, with cash receipt, with tax deductibles or tax cuts, whatever the situation will be. And, yes they will need a liscence, certification, audit as well. It is just like any other profession..............

This department will be under the ministry of citizen wellfare. Yes, this name is quite right.Title of the minister will be citizen wellfare minsiter.

Why are you making it complicated? If we put our hearts and minds in to this issue I am sure this is possible and this will solve at most 50% of their problems along with their kids...............thanks

Re: # 33

Now we are going somewhere. I further propose that, since everything starts with good education, all business schools and universities should also start courses like ``Sexual Services Entreprenuership``. That way the general population, who is kept ignorant of the intricacies and profitability of this business would learn and new and better blood, blue blood if I might add, will enter into the workforce. As women will learn the tricks of the trade new companies will emerge, dealing not only in retail but bulk as well. I can bet my sweet ass that the first such company that will go public will register itself in NYSE will have the initials ``SEX``. Soon the business will balloon into a bubble and just like IT, hindus will beat us again. Who can compete with them with 5 million prostitutes per city and vast experience in BPO. It is simply impossible. The first company that will register itself in Karachi Stock exchange will have initials ``CHU``. Bush will come to India and Pakistan, but he will only strike a deal of mutual cooperation with only India leaving Musharaf wringing his hands. Dr. Hoodbhoy will write an article at chowk whining that we should have a sexless deal in south Asia. Farzana will write an article with the plight of a little boy who endures the taunts of his neighbors with sentences like ``Yeh saali uss sharif aurat ke beta hay, moi aaj tak apne shohar ke alawa kissi ke saath nahin soi``

Re: # 34 by Urstruly,

``I further propose that, since everything starts with good education, all business schools and universities should also start courses like ``Sexual Services Entreprenuership``.``

To start with, simple high school education is enough. If you want to learn about intricacies the best way out is ``learning by doing``. With legal prostitution, it is highly likely that you will have to pay for such learning, unlike now where many experts get by without paying.

``As women will learn the tricks of the trade new companies will emerge, dealing not only in retail but bulk as well. I can bet my sweet ass that the first such company that will go public will register itself in NYSE will have the initials ``SEX``.``

I see no problems with this. Your local newspaper should have daily advertisements from many such companies. In Pakistan and India advertisements are through `gossips` and `legends`. When the time comes for such companies to go public, you should have no problem. Do not buy their stocks.


``Soon the business will balloon into a bubble and just like IT, hindus will beat us again. Who can compete with them with 5 million prostitutes per city and vast experience in BPO. It is simply impossible.``

I suggest that Pakistan not give up without trying. Quality matters. Just because you may not be good at it, does not mean that other Pakistanis are bad at it.

`Farzana will write an article with the plight of a little boy who endures the taunts of his neighbors with sentences like ``Yeh ..... uss sharif aurat ke beta hay, moi aaj tak apne shohar ke alawa kissi ke saath nahin soi`` `

If and when it comes to that, we shall point out that monogamous relationships should not be stigmatized. After all it has existed for such a long time, it is better that we openly accept such relationships as something which simply happens.

#26 by hamidm2

if necessary, we can even give it religious cover as it was/is done in iran ...........

But a muta`ah every ten minutes would be rather cumbersome ... don`t you think? It`s just easier to legalize and regulate it.

FV,

You stirred up an emotion which transcends the usual India/Pakistan rivalry. Where children are concerned, it is true that ALL children are the same. Somehow, their innocence knocks down all pretensions of grown-ups.