No Ground Beneath Their Feet

re: Urstruly # 7

“feminnists who promote prostitution as `an un-alienable right of a woman`”

I understand your point, but the feminist agenda is quite broad, it’s a diverse group with different agendas. One of them happens to be the one you mentioned. I also understand that the legislation against it only compounds the problem. In my opinion legislation of morality is a slippery slope and I am not aware of any society that has achieved that balance.


My original question was about what you said in the first post

“across the board is the fact that woman is the worst enemy of other woman - whether it is saas bahu, nand bhawaj, boardroom, bedroom, international forum or.....just fill in the blank.”

I think there is truth in the above statement. But there are women helping each other too. There are a lot of women’s groups that have made grate contributions to women’s rights and general well being.

Regards,

Faruk

Re: GT #10, Farzana #22

Your post on legalizing prostitution and its repercussions.

Well all I can say is that it has been illegal in this country for a while and that has not solved any problems. We have health problems, AIDS is spreading among prostitutes and their patrons. Their children as Farzana has pointed out have their own issues.

Legalizing prostitution has its own problems. They are different problems but I am not sure it’s a panacea to the problem.

Regards,

Faruk

fv,

..... well written and very moving ....... i am not going to argue the morality of prostitution and urstruly`s misogynistic reaction, but we have to accept the fact that it will probably be around as long as men and women are around ............. a logical first step would be to legalize and regulate the profession - if necessary, we can even give it religious cover as it was/is done in iran ...........

Re: # 25 by Faruk

Faruk and FV,

Let me immediately accept two assertions : (1) Recognizing prostitution as a trade will not take away the stigma associated with it immediately nor will it stop prostitution outside the legal framework to avoid taxes or other regulatory requirements (FV`s point); (2) Prostitution as a legal trade has problems (Faruk`s point) in the sense that (a) it might provide incentives to a woman to choose prostitution over say the job a secretary; and (b) forced prostitution may be passed off as voluntary prostitution.

I would like to add two other problems: (3) People might have genuine (or hypocitical) moral grounds to oppose this recognition; (4) Pakistan and India have too many other problems to deal with.

I would like to deal with these issues in reverse order.

(4) While Pakistan and India may not be ready for this debate I believe that Chowk is.

(3) This is an issue that can be addressed only through a debate. I am sure there won`t be a resolution in terms of unanimity. People may change sides in this debate and finally the two groups will have to agree to disagree. But more light will be shed on the issue and importantly a LANGUAGE to adress the issue MAY develop. While the issue may not be as important as why more women are not converting to Islam, we Chowkies have not hesitated to hold forth on much more trivial issues like caste lineage etc :-)

(2) Yes, legalization of prostitution may generate adverse incentives. But adverse incentives may be of two kinds.
First, what is adverse could well be a moral judgement, as in (3) above. As far as I am concerned morality is a personal issue. I do not want my daughter to become a Hindutva politician - I find it morally repugnant - but if she choses to be one then all that I can do is not vote for her or oppose her politically, write against her ideology etc. However, it would pain me extremely if her children were to be barred from schools or her children were to be ostracized because of their mother`s profession. Or for that matter, if I were to be socially boycotted because of my daughter`s profession. I should be able to proudly proclaim amongst my friends - Yes, my daughter`s political party is obnoxious but she is a smart politician.
Second, adverse incentives may occur when a person is forced to choose when she is not capable of choosing. But this is an issue of legal implementation. Such implementation is easier (not perfect) when prostitution itself is legal. For example, abstracting from concerns related to social stigma, if prostitution were to be legal then it would become easier for a twenty year old prostitute to sue her neighbour who forced her to become a prostitute at the age of thirteen.

(1) Let me start from black maketeering in prostitution after it has become legal. This is again a concern related to the implementation of law. In India, a large proportion of rationed cereals was and is sold in the black market. But, the proportion which is sold legally does help a sub-section of the poor. Over time implementation has improved and that is because it is illegal to sell in the black (normal) market to start with. Had subsidized cereals not been legal the growing sub-section of the poor would not have benifitted.
Finally, let me come to the hardest problem of all - that of social stigma. Social stigma is the outcome of the morality of the dominant (not necessarily majority) social group. The problem with social stigma is as follows - because of social stigma prostitution may not be legalized in a democracy. Since, I am against dictatorial imposition I do not know the solution. At best, I can suggest a social discourse on it. And as I said in (3) above, finally two groups will agree to disagree. I only hope that the language developed in the discourse makes the group, in favour of legalization, a majority. We can learn from Rammohan Roy`s fight against Sati. But insted of a law being forced on the population (as was done by the Brits.) I prefer a democratic resolution.

I would like to know what others think.

Re: # 19 by zeemax,

Yes, I am proposing what already exists in Holland.

#22
Farzana
I didn`t have chance to read the particular book, now that you are mentioning it must be worth of reading. Arright , I`ll give it a try. Thanks

(Urstruly Sahib)
With all due respect, may I suggest NOT to judge these prostitutes with your own perspective. Who are we to decide they are all bad or all good? Who are we to judge and label`em as,``moral or immoral``? Who are we to measure their existence based on our FATWAS with out realizing that , may be they are far better humans than all of us? Who are we to bound their lives according to our needs , no sir, they have all the right to feel , the very existence of their beings just like we have......................Their kids are as lovable and innocent as your`s...............Thank you.

FV,

You stirred up an emotion which transcends the usual India/Pakistan rivalry. Where children are concerned, it is true that ALL children are the same. Somehow, their innocence knocks down all pretensions of grown-ups.

#26 by hamidm2

if necessary, we can even give it religious cover as it was/is done in iran ...........

But a muta`ah every ten minutes would be rather cumbersome ... don`t you think? It`s just easier to legalize and regulate it.

Re: # 29

I think you have a problem with reading comprehension. I did not in any way cast a judgement on prostitutes as to whether they are moral or immoral; au contrair I only questioned the motives of those non-prostitutes who are not only hell bent on imposing GST on these poor self-employed souls but also do not tell me their own going rate. They do not even tell me anything about their plans with their daughters (if any) and when they are turning their house into a taxi stand.How much a medallion gonna cost? Hamidm? How are we gonna tax the prostitutes anyway. Will they issue a cash receipt to each customer? How will tax audit take place and who will do the audit. Will rpostitutes be operating out of government outlets? Will government create a new department with dispatchers, controllers and manager? What ministry this department will be under? What would be the title of the minister........I am all questions and you all you have to give me is lectures??

#32
Urstruly sahib

I am not lecturing you. Just offering you my humble suggestions in a plain and simple English. Yes, I am glad to see the change in your tone.........which is now more polite towards prostitutes than before.

At least you found a soft corner for those suffering individuals.

These sex workers along with their kids should be given all the rights as other citizens do have.

All these questions are very simple to answer.

All we need is a recognition of this profession along with their kids with the clear mind, NO ifs or buts..............Once they will get their recognition as sex workers, then all these solutions will come up to be solved in seconds.

And, Yes, they can work as a medallion, with cash receipt, with tax deductibles or tax cuts, whatever the situation will be. And, yes they will need a liscence, certification, audit as well. It is just like any other profession..............

This department will be under the ministry of citizen wellfare. Yes, this name is quite right.Title of the minister will be citizen wellfare minsiter.

Why are you making it complicated? If we put our hearts and minds in to this issue I am sure this is possible and this will solve at most 50% of their problems along with their kids...............thanks

Re: # 33

Now we are going somewhere. I further propose that, since everything starts with good education, all business schools and universities should also start courses like ``Sexual Services Entreprenuership``. That way the general population, who is kept ignorant of the intricacies and profitability of this business would learn and new and better blood, blue blood if I might add, will enter into the workforce. As women will learn the tricks of the trade new companies will emerge, dealing not only in retail but bulk as well. I can bet my sweet ass that the first such company that will go public will register itself in NYSE will have the initials ``SEX``. Soon the business will balloon into a bubble and just like IT, hindus will beat us again. Who can compete with them with 5 million prostitutes per city and vast experience in BPO. It is simply impossible. The first company that will register itself in Karachi Stock exchange will have initials ``CHU``. Bush will come to India and Pakistan, but he will only strike a deal of mutual cooperation with only India leaving Musharaf wringing his hands. Dr. Hoodbhoy will write an article at chowk whining that we should have a sexless deal in south Asia. Farzana will write an article with the plight of a little boy who endures the taunts of his neighbors with sentences like ``Yeh saali uss sharif aurat ke beta hay, moi aaj tak apne shohar ke alawa kissi ke saath nahin soi``

Re: # 34 by Urstruly,

``I further propose that, since everything starts with good education, all business schools and universities should also start courses like ``Sexual Services Entreprenuership``.``

To start with, simple high school education is enough. If you want to learn about intricacies the best way out is ``learning by doing``. With legal prostitution, it is highly likely that you will have to pay for such learning, unlike now where many experts get by without paying.

``As women will learn the tricks of the trade new companies will emerge, dealing not only in retail but bulk as well. I can bet my sweet ass that the first such company that will go public will register itself in NYSE will have the initials ``SEX``.``

I see no problems with this. Your local newspaper should have daily advertisements from many such companies. In Pakistan and India advertisements are through `gossips` and `legends`. When the time comes for such companies to go public, you should have no problem. Do not buy their stocks.


``Soon the business will balloon into a bubble and just like IT, hindus will beat us again. Who can compete with them with 5 million prostitutes per city and vast experience in BPO. It is simply impossible.``

I suggest that Pakistan not give up without trying. Quality matters. Just because you may not be good at it, does not mean that other Pakistanis are bad at it.

`Farzana will write an article with the plight of a little boy who endures the taunts of his neighbors with sentences like ``Yeh ..... uss sharif aurat ke beta hay, moi aaj tak apne shohar ke alawa kissi ke saath nahin soi`` `

If and when it comes to that, we shall point out that monogamous relationships should not be stigmatized. After all it has existed for such a long time, it is better that we openly accept such relationships as something which simply happens.

Touching and sad. Do you think that legalisation of prostitution would help to provide better rights to sex workers and their families? Also Farzana do you know of or have details of any such organisation where can we at least contribute monetarily.

An alternative to legalization,

http://www.justicewomen.com/cj_sweden.html

``In 1999, after years of research and study, Sweden passed legislation that a) criminalizes the buying of sex, and b) decriminalizes the selling of sex``

``In the capital city of Stockholm the number of women in street prostitution has been reduced by two thirds, and the number of johns has been reduced by 80%. There are other major Swedish cities where street prostitution has all but disappeared. ``

``In addition, the number of foreign women now being trafficked into Sweden for sex is nil.``

``In Sweden prostitution is regarded as an aspect of male violence against women and children. It is officially acknowledged as a form of exploitation of women and children and constitutes a significant social problem... gender equality will remain unattainable so long as men buy, sell and exploit women and children by prostituting them.``

Dear Farzana

I feel that legalisation of the profession is first step and it must be done to bring these ladies into national mainstream. Once that is done then they can demand their rights legally and use the courts and parliament for that.

These ladies are an integral part of society and as a society we have a duty of care towards them without bringing the vaginal morality in to the discussion at all.

The question is not what type of profession they are in, the question is that whether there are in safeguards for them in their profession protecting their haelth ( physical & mental ) and whether their children have access to education and ability to choose out of this trade.

Of late India happens to have lot of sex tourism and we must protect our sisters.

GT, Faruk (also dmji,hamidm, arstoo, khurram on the same subject):

Response to #27 by GT:

You are right about points 3 and 4 and the need for a debate (but just watch how concerned citizens who complain that Chowk is full of Indo-Pak shouting matches veer towards the new piece!)…however, to get to the other points you have raised, I’d like to play devil’s advocate…

[(2) Yes, legalization of prostitution may generate adverse incentives. But adverse incentives may be of two kinds.
First, what is adverse could well be a moral judgement]

The flipside could be that because it is legal there is no moral judgment. E.g. lotteries (no one calls it gambling). Re. children not being ostracised for the mother’s profession, I would personally not like a situation where the kids are cocooned from the ‘shadow’ of the mother and she is disowned by them. A likely scenario that comes with any ‘outing’.

[Second, adverse incentives may occur when a person is forced to choose when she is not capable of choosing. But this is an issue of legal implementation. Such implementation is easier (not perfect) when prostitution itself is legal. For example, abstracting from concerns related to social stigma, if prostitution were to be legal then it would become easier for a twenty year old prostitute to sue her neighbour who forced her to become a prostitute at the age of thirteen.]

Noble in thought, but not implementable. Say, it is legal…a young unlettered girl can be made to join the profession and even sign (give her thumb impression) and validate her consent.

Now, coming to the other point, how would a woman prove that she was forced into it? Would her neighbour still be available? (Most just disappear after they have sold the girl)? What evidence will she be able to produce, as many of them are disowned by their families back home? If she does decide to sue a year after it is legalised, would there be aspersions cast on her delayed reaction and would that go against her case?

[(1) Let me start from black maketeering in prostitution after it has become legal. This is again a concern related to the implementation of law. In India, a large proportion of rationed cereals was and is sold in the black market. But, the proportion which is sold legally does help a sub-section of the poor. Over time implementation has improved and that is because it is illegal to sell in the black (normal) market to start with. Had subsidized cereals not been legal the growing sub-section of the poor would not have benifitted.]

I think this is not quite an accurate comparison. The cereal market is meant to benefit the poor and the rationing is for them. In the case of sex work, the black-marketing would be done by authority figures; the women would not have control. You must be aware that a good deal of the ration stock is hidden by the shopkeepers and sold at market rates to the rich.

[Finally, let me come to the hardest problem of all - that of social stigma. Social stigma is the outcome of the morality of the dominant (not necessarily majority) social group. The problem with social stigma is as follows - because of social stigma prostitution may not be legalized in a democracy. Since, I am against dictatorial imposition I do not know the solution. At best, I can suggest a social discourse on it. And as I said in (3) above, finally two groups will agree to disagree. I only hope that the language developed in the discourse makes the group, in favour of legalization, a majority. We can learn from Rammohan Roy`s fight against Sati. But insted of a law being forced on the population (as was done by the Brits.) I prefer a democratic resolution.]

All laws are enforced and come from the top; polls are not conducted on specifics. You just said that due to social stigma it cannot be legalised in a democracy…how, then, can you opt for a democratic resolution? So, we would be back to square one. But, as you said earlier, this is an ongoing process of sensitising people…
- - -
#32, 34 by Urstruly:

[I only questioned the motives of those non-prostitutes who are not only hell bent on imposing GST on these poor self-employed souls but also do not tell me their own going rate. They do not even tell me anything about their plans with their daughters (if any) and when they are turning their house into a taxi stand.]

I am assuming these are exceedingly crucial questions that have been worrying you for a while now. Let me try and answer some…

1. Most of the CSWs are not self-employed.
2. Non-prostitutes are not forcing these women, at least not across the board…many of them are forced into it by their own relatives; what women from other fields (you mean NGOs and feminists) are doing is asking for them to be given a right to conduct the work there are in – due to circumstances or voluntarily – with control.
3. It is not incumbent on women not in the sex trade to reveal their going rate as they have not claimed to be in the reckoning. Incidentally, do you apply the same standards for all men or only gigolos?
4. You should also ask these women what their plans for their sons are, too.

[Now we are going somewhere. I further propose that, since everything starts with good education, all business schools and universities should also start courses like ``Sexual Services Entreprenuership``. That way the general population, who is kept ignorant of the intricacies and profitability of this business would learn and new and better blood, blue blood if I might add, will enter into the workforce.]

In Amsterdam, there is a school that teaches the women about the ‘how tos’. Re. blue blood, scientifically there is no connection. Although, historically, it was blue-blooded men who were the biggest patrons; and they knew the potential long before your NYSE idea. But, of course, you seem to revel in the fantasy…

[Farzana will write an article with the plight of a little boy who endures the taunts of his neighbors with sentences like ``Yeh saali uss sharif aurat ke beta hay, moi aaj tak apne shohar ke alawa kissi ke saath nahin soi``]

Sharaafat nazron aur lafzoun mein nahin, zehen mein hoti hai…
- - -

#36 by Subroto:

[Also Farzana do you know of or have details of any such organisation where can we at least contribute monetarily.]

Since you are not in India, I would suggest you contact Action Aid, as it has branches internationally, so you can keep track of contributions and also choose how it is to be used. I am giving you their India address and those of a few others:

ActionAid India
C-88, N.D.S.E-II
New Delhi 110049

St Catherine`s Home
Veerabhai Desai Road,
Andheri West, Mumbai,
Maharashtra,
India

Prerna
Kamathipura Municipal School,
7th Lane, Shuklaji Street,
Kamathipura, Bombay,
Maharashtra, India

Aasha Mahila Samstha
Gaurabai Clinic (Dawakhana),
13th Lane, Kamathipura,
Nagpada Junction, Mumbai,
Maharashtra, India