First, Honor Thyself

Re: # 14
Jang
I stand in awe of your ability to abstract these tid-bits from various religions. You sir, are deeper than the Marianas trench. -)
Returning to the article , remember, somebody said, ``Man is the missing link between apes and human beings.``

#13 i kinda agree..and since hinduism is a deen-ul-fitrat (sp?) meaning apreciative of human sociology and pathalogy within, it spun stories to rationalize the chimp-animal-tribal instincts.

Re: # 8
Arstoo,
Wot, ready to start another flame war again?

Jang
Nothing to do with Islam, or Hinduism. One of our nearest relatives amongst the primates, the chimpanzees show the same behaviour.
In a group the top man is the alpha male leader, followed by his male relatives, then other males, then adolescent males and then women and children.
So sharing 98% of the genes means we have inherited some of those characteristics. Of course using reason we can now subjugate them mentally, whereas the male chimpanzee just bashed the females once in while to show who was top dog (oops sorry top monkey).
Now if we had followed the bonobo, perhaps it would have been the other way around. There the females dominate, but without an overt show of force.

#8 i dont think islam is the cause. puranic hinduism is.

vedic hinduism is mostly ritual, upanishadic hinduism is too heavy for janata consumption with all the philosophy. puranic stories offer easy-to-digest (like the hadith) stories made up by brahmin and other authors to bring home morals and ethics. this is where all the sati-savitri and harishchandra taramati stories are glorified, where its made clear that a womans role is that of a seductress at the will of gods to disturb some sadhu, and her salvation is trhu her husband.

the instinct of protecting the ``vessel`` which carries the seed is purely animal, lions will kill cubs suspected from other other lions.

Re: # 8it is an ongoing trend to blame islam for every negative practice or activity taking place in the world.this mayb irrelevant to the discussion but I must clarify that before the Prophet began spreading islam female babies were buried alive because were considered a disgrace.the Prophet elevated the status of women ordered men to give them reverenceand informed women o thie rights.At a time when hindu widows were burninig themselves on thier husbands funeral pyres muslim women were given the right to remarry. there may be glitches in the application of principles of faith but attacking the religon itself or its messengers for that matter is tottaly uncivilised .this is an excellent example of prjudice in the so called global village. I am a feminist myself and oppose exploitation of women but do not blame islam for it.however if evryone thinks that islam is responsible for womens misery due to the obsession with chastity and womens status of a chattel how come women in the nonmuslim world have been reduced to sex objects?
refrain from passing statements in fits of ignorance.

http://forums.developpakistan.org/viewtopic.php?t=117&sid=0acff93656b0dfef37c515f7993e03ea

Zeena, You can download the full SDPI report and read it for your benefit from the above link...........

Women`s body is important for a patrairchal society because it solves the problem of continuity in the ownership of private property when the male owner dies............women provides those new bodies through which the ownership dispute gets resolved ...........so women`s body serves the purpose of resolving the conflict over ownership of private property that would arise in a tribal patriarchal society................that is why female virginity is valued (and not the male virginity) because by controlling the body of the female virgin the society can ensure that the ownership passes on to the correct natural male inheritor only..................


If we want to eradicate the concept of honor/virginity/ it all boils down to empowerment of women.........if we can ensure that women are financially independent, have equal opportunities and can possess property without restraint then the patriarchal society automatically breaks down..............we can see that hapenning in the christian west where a lot of empowered women have created alternate `legitimate` family relations of single-unmarried-mother, single-divorced-mother, married-childless-couple, bi-family, lesbian couple-family.....and such other human relations many of which have a legitimate status and do not attract the notions of honor/virginity etc. etc...............

so what we require is more female empowerment in order to destroy this monster called patriarchy in the (Islamic) world and open up these sociteies towards different forms of human relations which these societies as on date do not consider as `natural`...........

Dear Jawahara

Main factor resposnible for this predicament of women is Islam. When Islamic thugs started attacking the subcontinent, the followed the sunnah. Like mohammad they killed, looted, raped the woman ( of course according to dictates of prophet) and enslaved woman and children and sold them to slavery in the arab world.

Although the people of west India now Pakistan were forcible converted to Islam but still they could not get the trauma of their woman, sister and daughters being raped by the brutes or outsiders, from their conciousness.

Rajputs used to kill their woman before going to wars with Muslims.

I think the cult of vaginal honor is the forced contribution of Islam in the subcontinent.

Author, the emphasis on movies is misplaced since movies do not dictate societal trends or norms - they sometimes do reflect those for commercial gains or other narrow motives. Crimes against females are not about sex but about exploitation of the weak. The more repressed a society - sexually or otherwise, the more likely it is to regard its women as sweets to be eaten for enjoyment, delectable spoils of battle victories for sharing with fellow victors, a dumping ground for the male seed, a punching bag for male aggression, a beast of burden for manual drudgery and other such acts. It treats its women and perhaps other weaker elements as objects which are meant for male gratification and to be treated as the males please. A society that does not value its women is forever condemned to remain one rung below the worst of the lowliest forms of life - because it voluntarily constrains half of its own! This is presently the case in most parts of the Muslim world - but in reality those hordes are only the most current trekkers on a path well-travelled by others before them.

``Could it be that woman are made by God/Nature to be dependent on man?`` --

Dependency is pure desi vanaspati ghee -- in fact God/Nature has made MAN dependent on woman from the womb to crappy diappers to recreational procreation.....

shore sahib they do -- for libido in women as well testerone is the master hormone! -- without testesterone ordained sainthood.

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Jawahara Saidullah,

The system is not perfect, even farther away from it. But one can not reasonably say that it is the system`s fault, neither the ones who created it, nor the ones who propagated its evolution. Women themselves are greased bearings in a cartwheel; they go where the system dictates they should. The solution to the conundrum you highlighted rests, in part, on women also. If women use reason to understand themselves as persons and their role in their societies, they would be less susceptable to the system pushing them around.

Peace!

``“I will avenge you,” he cries out, “I’ll make them die a dog’s death.” He stalks away with purposeful steps as plaintive music plays and the background glows red-gold, from the fire and his passion. Women in the audience cry and men blink back emotions. They understand.
I remember scenes like this from many older Hindi movies.``(JS)

Jawahara -- you have caught the Achilles` heel of Indian society -- you are exactly right -- those malignantly melodramatic trashy Hindi movies -- are indeed the biggest stumbling block against the emancipation and modernization of both Muslim and Hindu female...

.....nowhere in the realm of film making in any civilized country -- so much social backwardness, decadence and spurious unculture -- has been falsely glamorized -- and shamelessly marketed -- as `authentic` Indian `culture`.....as in India.

great piece!

Sorry to hear that woman are treated like that still.

However, being a caring and sensitive male myself, who really wants to make it work for woman I often gets tossed around like a sack of potatoes.

Could it be that woman are made by God/Nature to be dependent on man?
It might sound very backward to you, however there is truth in that. Howcome, in Western societies high-school girls fit the profile of stereotype woman themselves. They have had very equal lifestyle like other males, yet they tend to rely on men for small things or hiding behind them. WHY???

Then there are Dykes who have more male hormones who tend to be independent.

SO what is the conclusion:
Woman who are more men like bilogically such as Lesbians or Older woman past menapause with more male hormones that is are in effect more independent and free of male domination.

Please help me to see things differently. Your emotional article indirectly attacks men for all the issues that woman are facing fails to take into account biological facts.

Thank You!