First, Honor Thyself

Even better discussion - somehow its ok for your own to rape or sell your own for any reason....BUT American Steven Green they insist is an animal and want brought up on charges. all i read is women in Iraq saying how they are being assaulted right and left by their own who can`t agree to stop killing each other and use the war to continue their longtime fued over who followed the Prophet better....I can`t stop laughing.....where was the ummah when her honor was being assaulted? all he did was buy into the culture and follow thru on the islamic message he got that its bloody ok to take a woman`s honor away if someone insults you......he felt insulted by having to fight some war the iraqis originally wanted but now the going got tough don`t have the guts to continue fighting.....so he uses their own strategy that maybe i rape your women the war will end.....and no one understands this?

``Until women are free to own their bodies and until their honor is tied not to their chastity but to the strength of their character, these (dis)honor killings and other anti-female acts will not stop``.

YES YES YES! until women respect themself enough to protect all other women and force men to see us as human beings this sad tradition will not stop. women must rise up and say ENUF and keep pushing until the mindset changes - without this the male behavior will not stop. some parts of culture just have to be seen for what they are - wrong - and dealt with as such.

why is it a woman can be abused to solve in many case a dispute that doesn`t even involve her? how come it isn`t a boy child given to another guy to have fun with, but the girls sexuality and mind can be abused without anyone caring? how can anyone condone a woman being given to someone - which means he can use her as he pleases inside and outside the bed - just to settle a dispute? why is it men can`t talk these things out and come to decent reasonable solution? such as you took my goat now I give you a goat - or even two goats if you think your goat was sooo precious. why if I take your goat do you think its ok to rape my wife or have me give my daughter to one of yours? is a goat more important than the girl?

no one in this 21st century can think that this is decent, rational behavior and expect the world can deal with us rationally if this is allowed to continue. honor and purity is NOT the issue - the issue is men`s pride and LACK of honor to think their women are not full human beings

v need a Bandit Queen..
that`s it..

#58, Saminasha,
As the lady said, ``First, Honor Thyself.`` If you can`t then as the gentleman said, ``Get thee to a nunnery.``

Re: # 57

``bi polar``? did you finally have your evaluation with doc sohail?

#56, Just an observation. There is no need to get upset. Please learn to relax and join us in the human race. As I said, you are too bi-polar. Amazonia was a mythical place, unless you have been to Brazil. :)

Re: # 55

Excuse me, but who asked you?

#52, #54, Saminasha,
You have a nasty obsession with seeing all issues from a gender-centric perspective. Please broaden your horizons and be part of the human experience for a change. :) Not everything is so black and white and so bi-polar.

Re: # 53

How surprising...another male voice comes into to save the day....

Author, here are a few additional words on your writing here. In my view, it is fair to say that at this point, you are among the very best writers at this web-site. You do not claim to write from the heart – anybody who reads your works can see for themselves that you actually do! I do hope that you will not be dissuaded by words thrown your way like stones – your abilities, talents, and dignity are impeccable. Your powers of description are superb. I recommend focusing on those true strengths and to use them to maximum advantage to drive home your points – a technique you have used so successfully before. (Generic evocative statements are already populating these chowk puddles thicker than mud and little is gained by those alone.)

Re: # 44

And this attitude is why there are so many women respondents to this piece, right, Jawahara?

A Bhajan dedicated to Chowk.com


Raam Chandra keh gaye Siya sey
Aisa kalyug aayega
Hans chukega dana dunka
Kauwaa moti khayega

Arey Raam Chandra keh gaye siya sey…..

Mayya Boli-“Hey Prabhu, tau kya kalyug main dharm
Aur karm—kuch bhi nahi hoga??”

Prabhu hans kar boley….

Arey dharm bhi hoga karm bhi hoga
dharm bhi hoga karm bhi hoga,
Lekin sharm nahi hogi
Baat baat par mat-pita ko
Baat baat par mat-pita ko,
Beta aankh dikhayega.

Arey Raam Chandra keh gaye siya sey…..

Raja aur Praja dono hi,
Karengey appni manmaani….manmaani,
Baat baat par en dono main,
Baat baat par en dono main,
Hogi aksar kheenchatan......kheenchatani
Jiskey haath main hogi laati….
Jiskey haath main hogi laathi,
Bhains wahi ley jayega…

Hans chunega……

Mandir sooney sooney hongey,
Bhari rahengi madhushala…..madhushala.
Saath pita key sang sang jinmey,
Naacheygeen ghar ki bala…..ghar ki bala..
Kaisa kanyadaan pita hee…….
Kaisa kanyadaan pita hee,
Beti ka dhan khayega….

Hans chugega dana-dunka
Kauwa moti khayega

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Delhiwala

In as much as we ought to be discussing nationality at all, you and I can be proud of Jawahara`s very authentic Indian roots .

Given a name like Jawahara, could one expect anything else? :)

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Jawahara #40, {``Thanks for your thoughtful, open minded reading, Salim. ``}

Jawahara,
I am sorry but I don`t think that I have done justice to your article here and previously when you informed us about FGM. Seriously, you have the very positive capability of presenting your views effectively and then having others, especially men, agree with you in your evaluation and recommendations. Please don`t consider this lightly - I am very sincere when I pay this compliment to you. First you inform thoroughly, then you present the plight in no uncertain dimensions, and finally you gently make your readers join you in agreeing with your conclusions and wanting to help in finding resolutions. I should ask you to write an article about the suffering of the ``stranded`` Pakistanis (or Biharis) as some would have us call them. This is twice that I am finding myself better informed and totally in agreement with your viewpoints. Thank you.

#42, {``Please reread Chuhan`s comment: ...
Surely nuance should not escape an editor.
... Sure, male interactors will make sympathetic, well meaning and ultimately meaningless noises .... To me, this is just lipservice. ``}

No, you are mistaken. Lipservice is what you provide all day long.

Re: # 44
He has no cause. Except to hurt other`s causes.

Saminasha, like I said, think and believe whatever you want. Have at it! Just remember not all of us can be utterly brilliant, attuned to nuances and totally committed to causes as you are.

Re: # 40Jawahara,
You are right about Salim`s writeup. At times he does not make sense but at other times he comes with this brilliancy.

Anyways, are you from Pakistan or India?
Also, what is your stand on FEMANAZIS?

Re: # 40

Jawahara,

Please reread Chuhan`s comment:

``....You have articulated the suffering of women and in a subtle way you are sympathizing with the ``men`` who have to behave like monsters because of the pressures and obligations imposed by a tribal society.....``

Surely nuance should not escape an editor.

Also, this is not a ``game``...you`ve put this out into the universe-you can hardly expect everyone to agree with your nice girl take on this. When we discussed FGM on another piece you wrote for chowk, you dismissed talking about gender privillege as immature. Funny, most of those scholars who write about the devaluation of female bodies dont have problems in identifying patriarchy as an integral cause of this problem.

My problem with this piece and your stand is that in refusing to acknowledge the frameworks in which misogyny operates, you are doing more a disservice to the so called ``dialogue`` of chowk.com that anything else. Sure, male interactors will make sympathetic, well meaning and ultimately meaningless noises about how ``terrible`` ``it`` ``all`` is, a woman will show up occasionally and make a comment here and there, and that is the end of the discussion. To me, this is just lipservice.

very right but it requires education and a deep change at a societal level.

A

Saminasha, I`ve said what I wanted to say at this point in time about this issue in the article. You are free to read it however you want, come up with any conclusions, ascribe whatever motives you want. I am not getting into this game with you again.

Thanks for your thoughtful, open minded reading, Salim.

Jawahara,
I do not see you engaging in a blame game here. You have articulated the suffering of women and in a subtle way you are sympathizing with the ``men`` who have to behave like monsters because of the pressures and obligations imposed by a tribal society. This concept of misplaced ``honor`` is a stupid and archaic symbol that has been placed in men`s minds by thoughtless elders and chiefs. As the roles become more egalitarian, I am hopeful that men and women will be able to discard these unwanted obligations imposed by tribes, clans, religions, and race. Thank you for not engaging in the boring and distracting approach used by ferocious feminazis. Both women AND men should have control over themselves, including their own bodies.

Re: # 37
Number thirty seven,
I am interested in listening to you, as in my eyes you and scout are biggest woman abusers in the world.

Re: # 37
Number thirty seven,
I am interested in listening to you, as in my eyes you and scout are biggest woman abusers in the world.

Re: # 36

``...Everytime I interact with people like you, it always ends up as a Male conspiracy or emotional outbursts or a crying session...``

If you know you are prone to sobbing, why get into it with us?

Re: # 31
Thanks for responding!

I really care about woman and their rights, I do. Despite how some woman interactors have painted me. Truth is that I really-2 support equality for woman. Everytime I interact with people like you, it always ends up as a Male conspiracy or emotional outbursts or a crying session. This does not help woman like Jessica Lall or Mukhtar Mai(in your country).

I think most of our problems are economic in nature. My own mother used to hide money from my Father to buy things for us secretly, not that we were poor, it was just that this is how my Grandmother and her mother did it. In fact, I have heard that in our house in Pakistan still might have 1/2 KG of Gold buried somewhere(If only I could visit).
Anyways, you have described the problem that we all know, what in your wisdom is the solution?

Pakistan is an Islamic country whose role model is Saudi Arabia, there is absolutely no hope for woman`s redemption in Pakistan in my eyes.

India might be a notch better, as Indian woman dont give a damn to Religion and they are more progressive.

Then in West where we had a big Female Lib movement and then during last 4-5 years FEMINAZIS have again hijacked it. Everytime I interact with these ``Opra Watching/Whining/Hillary supporting/My-Rights-My rights, NO duties`` type of pseudo Liberal Females, my head bows in shame.

I think American Woman need to be like Mrs Bush, they are caring supportive of their husbands and can raise kids on their own, yet they are assertive and authorative of their rights.

Thanks for listening!

Re: # 33

and to what extent ARE WE (that is you, our fams, our neighbors, our colleagues, media, police officers, etc.) complicit in this one?

#32 i meant poetic license offcourse ;-)

Re: # 31

Jawahara,

Well...considering that you had claimed fgm was a crime not implicating men, I was wondering if you felt the same thing about the valuation/devaluation, commodification of women`s bodies....is this another genderless crime?

Re: # 30
Saminasha
Jang`s referring to Kavya Vishwanathan. Kavya actually is a style of Sanskrit Classical poetry. You could loosely say it means, ``poem`` or ``inspired``.
Kavita is arguably derived from kavya.

Sorry for not interacting earlier, everyone. I`ve been dealing with a computer with a fried hard drive (extra crispy...mmm). Anyway, thanks for reading and commenting.

Delhiwala, I didn`t intend the article to attack men. What it does rail against is traditional, patriarchial systems, which, in some ways are also harmful for most men, at the cost of just a few powerful ones. And yes, some women are equally culpable in the victimization of women. This is not a men vs. women issue for me. It`s an issue for anyone with a conscience and for those who value individual freedom and don`t think a woman`s (or anyone`s for that matter) body is someone else`s property.

Saminasha #28, this discussion (ownership of women`s bodies, virginity, women as chattel, etc.) is nothing new. It`s nothing I`ve invented though I`ve written about it even when I was in grad school and in other smaller articles earlier, in different ways. There are reams of material on it. This article was just my perspective on it as I am sure your interact responses were yours.

Re: # 29

unclear on the meaning of ``kavya``

#28 so are you saying there is there is some kavya in the author?

Hey Jawahara,

How different is this piece from what I`ve written to you on a previous FGM board?


http://www.chowk.com/show_user_replies.cgi?membername=Saminasha&start=40&end=49&page=5&chapter=1

Another interesting perspective -

GLOBAL VIEW

The Foreign Brides
By BRET STEPHENS
May 2, 2006; Page A17

They are called Die Fremden Bräute -- the foreign brides. This year, thousands of teenage girls, very few past the age of consent, will arrive in Germany from Turkey for arranged marriages and lives of domestic servitude enforced by tradition, isolation and fear. It`s a thriving one-way trade that has been going on for more than three decades, and it sits at the core of Europe`s greatest predicament today: the widening gulf between an increasingly postmodern society and its often premodern immigrants.

The subject of foreign brides broke wide in the German media last year, when a 28-year-old Turkish man took his 11-year-old wife to a registry office in Düsseldorf to get her an ID card. On that occasion, the girl was detained by the authorities and deported to Turkey. But according to the Turkish-born German sociologist Necla Kelek, that is more often the exception than the rule. Ms. Kelek, 48, is one to know: In two bestselling books, ``The Foreign Bride`` and ``The Lost Sons,`` she has exposed Germans to the lives of their 2.6 million-strong Turkish community in a way few of her German-born peers would have dared.

Next week, the German parliament is set to debate legislation, conceived by Ms. Kelek and supported by Chancellor Angela Merkel, that would require foreign brides (from outside the European Union) to learn German before their arrival and bar entry to those under 21. ``The goal,`` says Ms. Kelek, ``is to ensure that those who come are willing to integrate.``
[Necla Kelek]

This isn`t just an academic or political issue for Ms. Kelek. It`s a telling fact that the most prominent Muslim critics of contemporary Muslim societies -- Ayaan Hirsi Ali in Holland, Irshad Manji in Canada, Seyran Ates and Serap Cileli in Germany -- are women. ``It`s the women who have felt the relapse into Sharia the most,`` explains Ms. Kelek. ``The boys might be slaves to their families, but on the streets they are free, and besides they can always look forward to a wife they can suppress. It`s the women who explode.``

Ms. Kelek herself came to Germany as a child in the late 1960s, along with a family that, initially at least, sought to integrate into German society. She learned German, made German friends, respected what later would be called, controversially, the German Leitkultur, the ``lead culture.``

But things changed in the 1970s. Previous Turkish immigrants had generally come from cities and were relatively secular, but later arrivals were overwhelmingly from the countryside and traditional in their outlook. The rise of fundamentalist Islam also had an effect. Religion became the primary marker of individual identity. Codes of family honor and standards of female purity, to which Ms. Kelek`s family had once been relatively indifferent, became important.

When Ms. Kelek was 17, she locked herself in her room in a fit of adolescent rebellion. Her father knocked the door down with an ax. Instead of beating or killing her, he abandoned the family for good. It was, she says, one of the happiest days of her life: ``We turned on all the lights and played music. We were free.``

A similar scenario between a rebellious daughter and her Turkish father might work out differently these days. There have been 55 honor killings in Germany in the past six years. Most of the victims were ``fallen`` girls who had broken from their families and were living ``like a German.`` Usually the perpetrator is a brother, acting at his father`s behest. The Turkish community tends to treat these young killers as heroes.

Such violence is integral to what Ms. Kelek calls the Turkish community`s ``organized self-marginalization.`` The tender age of the foreign brides, for instance: That isn`t just a matter of depraved sexual tastes. ``They want a girl with `closed eyes,``` Ms. Kelek explains. The younger the bride, the more likely she is to be submissive to her husband, dependent on his family, ignorant and terrified of the world outside.

Today, every second Turkish woman who has a child in a German school is herself a foreign bride. Two-thirds of these children arrive in school not speaking a word of German. The German educational system bends over backward for them, providing religious instruction in Turkish or Arabic and excluding girls from physical education, sex ed and other subjects where Islamic mores might be offended. The results have been dismal: 60% of Turkish children leave school without any kind of certificate. ``The distance between Turkish youngsters and German ones increases every year,`` Ms. Kelek says.

The Turkish community is not the only party at fault, however. Until last year, few Turks, including those whose families had lived in Germany for generations, could obtain German citizenship. Successive German governments compensated for their refusal to facilitate citizenship procedures by allowing the Turkish community to do more or less as it pleased. Thus the 11-year-old bride: With a parent`s consent, Turkish law will allow even a nine-year-old girl to marry. Had German law applied, the age threshold would have been 16.

There`s a deeper problem here, though, which goes to the heart of modern Germany`s problematic notion of goodness. Germans, Ms. Kelek says, ``want to do everything right that they previously did wrong. This is especially the case with the Muslim community because it`s such a different culture, such a different religion. Germans are trying to prove to themselves just how tolerant they are.``

No surprise, then, that Ms. Kelek`s legislation is being hotly opposed by the Social Democrats and the Green Party. For too many self-described progressives, limitless tolerance of ``the other`` has replaced the defense of individual liberty as proof of virtue.

Ms. Kelek sees it differently. Europe, she says, ``has to fight for its values,`` not least by putting some hard questions to its increasingly alien and belligerent Muslim communities: ```Why aren`t your women free? Why aren`t your children free?` If we don`t ask those questions, this will only continue.``

Mr. Stephens, a member of the Journal`s editorial board, replaces George Melloan as our regular Global View columnist. Write to him at bstephens@wsj.com

my GKB payee dilli, and zeemax,

while you two raise great points, but i think at this point we as humans are supposed to have evolved beyond discovery channel, sperms, eggs etc..what with all these great religions and all. so while we are still learning a lot to learn from chimps and dogs, roumor is females now seem to have developed some brains and a mind of their own as well.

Re: # 20
Zeemax if you are talking about the hymen then nobody has come out with a really good reason why it is there in a few primates. In most other mammals it disappears fairly quickly some even in the embryonic stage. In any case it is no indicator of virginity is it? Strenuous physical activity can tear it and research has established that intercourse need not tear it.

The only argument which appears plausible seems to be that it was there to provide an additional vaginal protection from external sources of infection and natural selection allowed it to remain welll beyond adolescence.

Re: # 21
I am still waiting for a response to my sincere question and no woman has come forward.

Very Sad!!

Re: # 4
how do you know that? are you a dyke?

Re: # 20
woman only has one Egg and men have millions of sperms.

Ratio of 1:Million tells us something here....

Jawahara Jee,
This is by far and large a very good article that you have ever written. That is why it got published on FP.

My biggest complain with people who hold the views like you expressed in this letter about woman liberty and other such topics is that you fail to take into account any scientific approach and outrightly dismiss it as Man-Issue or Men`s conspiracy to keep woman down-under.

Can anyone explain to me my basic query?

1) Why does older woman after menapuse become more patriarch like or to-be-afraid of in DESI-Land?
2) Why does females in Western society after their proms tend to become more feminine at the cost of equality of genders?

To me, it cleary states what is scientifically so obvious, there are innate biological differences between Genders and so long society is still not developed woman would be treated unfairly by men. And woman would like to hide behind men and hope for the best treatment that may or not be delivered by men.

It is sad but truth..

Abstinence till marriage, both for men and women, does have its virtue towards a durable family system. That women have an irreplaceable verifying feature which has no other utility, maybe some evolutionist can tell us where it came from and why it`s still there.

Jawahara Jee,
This is by far and large a very good article that you have ever written. That is why it got published on FP.

My biggest complain with people who hold the views like you expressed in this letter about woman liberty and other such topics is that you fail to take into account any scientific approach and outrightly dismiss it as Man-Issue or Men`s conspiracy to keep woman down-under.

Can anyone explain to me my basic query?

1) Why does older woman after menapuse become more patriarch like or to-be-afraid of in DESI-Land?
2) Why does females in Western society after their proms tend to become more feminine at the cost of equality of genders?

To me, it cleary states what is scientifically so obvious, there are innate biological differences between Genders and so long society is still not developed woman would be treated unfairly by men. And woman would like to hide behind men and hope for the best treatment that may or not be delivered by men.

It is sad but truth..

#17, Chowk Staff, I did not post #17. Here is my post.

Jawahara {``Women’s bodies in most cultures have never been truly their own. Apart from a lucky few, women’s bodies were used to solve tribal differences, to assuage angry gods; were chattel to be traded by one man to another.``}

Jawahara,
Very succinctly and articulately presented. You are so right about this unbelievable stranglehold that many societies allow men to have over women and their bodies. I think that the more we leave behind our pastoral and tribal traditions, the more freedom women will obtain for themselves and their bodies. When wealth and status was counted in sheep, goats, cattle, chickens, camels, and other livestock under a man`s control, he started including human females in the same category. With more urbanization, liberalization, removal of sexual taboos, and acceptance of universal individual rights, a change for the better is inevitable. Good job.

Thank god/FSM for Jinnah..IF it weren`t for him, this would read Indian terrorist caught with grid map..

Terror suspect `bought electricity grid map`

TERROR suspect Faheem Khalid Lodhi allegedly bought two maps of the national electricity grid using a false name and business name.
Rose Bakla, who worked at the Electricity Supply Association of Australia in 2003, told the NSW Supreme Court yesterday she remembered the man who paid $170 cash for two diagrammatic maps of the national supply grid.

``The gentleman said that he was starting up a business and he wanted to display these in his office,`` she told the NSW Supreme Court. She described him as in his ``mid-30s, early 40s`` with a medium build, dark features and dark hair.

The jury heard he filled out the sales form as M.Rasul, a partner in Rasul Electrical.

Prosecutors allege the man was Faheem Khalid Lodhi, 36, a Pakistani-born architect who is on trial on four terror-related charges.

It is true that women and more importantly (and sadly), their bodies and virginity is being used by men. These men use the excuses of honor and religion to justify their acts. Religion, I believe, has nothing to do with it because men belonging to any faith be they be in any part of the world indulge in this shameful act. Again, education helps but one is surprised to see how sometimes educated men in our society behave towards women.

The solution to this problem is in the hands women only. And Mukhataran Main has proved that.

Re: # 14
Jang
I stand in awe of your ability to abstract these tid-bits from various religions. You sir, are deeper than the Marianas trench. -)
Returning to the article , remember, somebody said, ``Man is the missing link between apes and human beings.``

#13 i kinda agree..and since hinduism is a deen-ul-fitrat (sp?) meaning apreciative of human sociology and pathalogy within, it spun stories to rationalize the chimp-animal-tribal instincts.

Re: # 8
Arstoo,
Wot, ready to start another flame war again?

Jang
Nothing to do with Islam, or Hinduism. One of our nearest relatives amongst the primates, the chimpanzees show the same behaviour.
In a group the top man is the alpha male leader, followed by his male relatives, then other males, then adolescent males and then women and children.
So sharing 98% of the genes means we have inherited some of those characteristics. Of course using reason we can now subjugate them mentally, whereas the male chimpanzee just bashed the females once in while to show who was top dog (oops sorry top monkey).
Now if we had followed the bonobo, perhaps it would have been the other way around. There the females dominate, but without an overt show of force.

#8 i dont think islam is the cause. puranic hinduism is.

vedic hinduism is mostly ritual, upanishadic hinduism is too heavy for janata consumption with all the philosophy. puranic stories offer easy-to-digest (like the hadith) stories made up by brahmin and other authors to bring home morals and ethics. this is where all the sati-savitri and harishchandra taramati stories are glorified, where its made clear that a womans role is that of a seductress at the will of gods to disturb some sadhu, and her salvation is trhu her husband.

the instinct of protecting the ``vessel`` which carries the seed is purely animal, lions will kill cubs suspected from other other lions.

Re: # 8it is an ongoing trend to blame islam for every negative practice or activity taking place in the world.this mayb irrelevant to the discussion but I must clarify that before the Prophet began spreading islam female babies were buried alive because were considered a disgrace.the Prophet elevated the status of women ordered men to give them reverenceand informed women o thie rights.At a time when hindu widows were burninig themselves on thier husbands funeral pyres muslim women were given the right to remarry. there may be glitches in the application of principles of faith but attacking the religon itself or its messengers for that matter is tottaly uncivilised .this is an excellent example of prjudice in the so called global village. I am a feminist myself and oppose exploitation of women but do not blame islam for it.however if evryone thinks that islam is responsible for womens misery due to the obsession with chastity and womens status of a chattel how come women in the nonmuslim world have been reduced to sex objects?
refrain from passing statements in fits of ignorance.

http://forums.developpakistan.org/viewtopic.php?t=117&sid=0acff93656b0dfef37c515f7993e03ea

Zeena, You can download the full SDPI report and read it for your benefit from the above link...........

Women`s body is important for a patrairchal society because it solves the problem of continuity in the ownership of private property when the male owner dies............women provides those new bodies through which the ownership dispute gets resolved ...........so women`s body serves the purpose of resolving the conflict over ownership of private property that would arise in a tribal patriarchal society................that is why female virginity is valued (and not the male virginity) because by controlling the body of the female virgin the society can ensure that the ownership passes on to the correct natural male inheritor only..................


If we want to eradicate the concept of honor/virginity/ it all boils down to empowerment of women.........if we can ensure that women are financially independent, have equal opportunities and can possess property without restraint then the patriarchal society automatically breaks down..............we can see that hapenning in the christian west where a lot of empowered women have created alternate `legitimate` family relations of single-unmarried-mother, single-divorced-mother, married-childless-couple, bi-family, lesbian couple-family.....and such other human relations many of which have a legitimate status and do not attract the notions of honor/virginity etc. etc...............

so what we require is more female empowerment in order to destroy this monster called patriarchy in the (Islamic) world and open up these sociteies towards different forms of human relations which these societies as on date do not consider as `natural`...........

Dear Jawahara

Main factor resposnible for this predicament of women is Islam. When Islamic thugs started attacking the subcontinent, the followed the sunnah. Like mohammad they killed, looted, raped the woman ( of course according to dictates of prophet) and enslaved woman and children and sold them to slavery in the arab world.

Although the people of west India now Pakistan were forcible converted to Islam but still they could not get the trauma of their woman, sister and daughters being raped by the brutes or outsiders, from their conciousness.

Rajputs used to kill their woman before going to wars with Muslims.

I think the cult of vaginal honor is the forced contribution of Islam in the subcontinent.

Author, the emphasis on movies is misplaced since movies do not dictate societal trends or norms - they sometimes do reflect those for commercial gains or other narrow motives. Crimes against females are not about sex but about exploitation of the weak. The more repressed a society - sexually or otherwise, the more likely it is to regard its women as sweets to be eaten for enjoyment, delectable spoils of battle victories for sharing with fellow victors, a dumping ground for the male seed, a punching bag for male aggression, a beast of burden for manual drudgery and other such acts. It treats its women and perhaps other weaker elements as objects which are meant for male gratification and to be treated as the males please. A society that does not value its women is forever condemned to remain one rung below the worst of the lowliest forms of life - because it voluntarily constrains half of its own! This is presently the case in most parts of the Muslim world - but in reality those hordes are only the most current trekkers on a path well-travelled by others before them.

``Could it be that woman are made by God/Nature to be dependent on man?`` --

Dependency is pure desi vanaspati ghee -- in fact God/Nature has made MAN dependent on woman from the womb to crappy diappers to recreational procreation.....

shore sahib they do -- for libido in women as well testerone is the master hormone! -- without testesterone ordained sainthood.

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Jawahara Saidullah,

The system is not perfect, even farther away from it. But one can not reasonably say that it is the system`s fault, neither the ones who created it, nor the ones who propagated its evolution. Women themselves are greased bearings in a cartwheel; they go where the system dictates they should. The solution to the conundrum you highlighted rests, in part, on women also. If women use reason to understand themselves as persons and their role in their societies, they would be less susceptable to the system pushing them around.

Peace!

``“I will avenge you,” he cries out, “I’ll make them die a dog’s death.” He stalks away with purposeful steps as plaintive music plays and the background glows red-gold, from the fire and his passion. Women in the audience cry and men blink back emotions. They understand.
I remember scenes like this from many older Hindi movies.``(JS)

Jawahara -- you have caught the Achilles` heel of Indian society -- you are exactly right -- those malignantly melodramatic trashy Hindi movies -- are indeed the biggest stumbling block against the emancipation and modernization of both Muslim and Hindu female...

.....nowhere in the realm of film making in any civilized country -- so much social backwardness, decadence and spurious unculture -- has been falsely glamorized -- and shamelessly marketed -- as `authentic` Indian `culture`.....as in India.

great piece!

Sorry to hear that woman are treated like that still.

However, being a caring and sensitive male myself, who really wants to make it work for woman I often gets tossed around like a sack of potatoes.

Could it be that woman are made by God/Nature to be dependent on man?
It might sound very backward to you, however there is truth in that. Howcome, in Western societies high-school girls fit the profile of stereotype woman themselves. They have had very equal lifestyle like other males, yet they tend to rely on men for small things or hiding behind them. WHY???

Then there are Dykes who have more male hormones who tend to be independent.

SO what is the conclusion:
Woman who are more men like bilogically such as Lesbians or Older woman past menapause with more male hormones that is are in effect more independent and free of male domination.

Please help me to see things differently. Your emotional article indirectly attacks men for all the issues that woman are facing fails to take into account biological facts.

Thank You!