Righting the Wrongs in Ladakh-Baltistan

a Siachen Peace Park!! What a great idea.

Good, informative article.

in 1982, I trekked across Baltoro Glacier and across the Conway Saddle upto the Korakoram Pass. We came back across the Saltoro Range and then followed the Indus to Skardu. It was a wonderful experience. Just last year Ahmad Rashid, the Pakistani Traveler Anthropologist proposed trekking west of K2 to China but I was already caught in an expedition that would cut through the formidale NARA Desert. I donno if I will ever be able to go there again. So much for the beauty and splendour of the area.

As for the Skardu Kargil route, I think it cannot come till Siachin is demilitarised. Even then it may remain closed for better part of the year due to heavy snow, if and when a black top raod is indeed made. Most of the accesses are Silk Roads (mule tracks) aking weeks of travelling.

As an aside, many families got seperated once India occupied Kargil in 1971. I think it would be better to organise re unions in selected areas, giving split families a chance to meet.

I feel the writer is not well travelled in the area to fathom the geopgraphy.

Cheerios

here we go again ! .............

.......... another primitive aborigine group is pushing its cuture and history and claiming that it is a ``distinct`` group and should be granted this or that status .......... next thing you know they will want to sing a balti/ladakhi versioin of the national anthem ..... not that anyone knows what language it is in to begin with ........ ``pak sir zamin shad bad``........wat the heck is that ?.....as george bush would say ``no habla se espanol`` .......

........... what is it with the third world types that they want to keep on digging up history and people long dead and other such nonsense, instead of getting on with the business of living today ??? ......... the only thing worth anything in gilgit/naltistan is the shangri-la resort where mrs, hamidm and i went on our honeymoon ............ other than that, there is nothing romantic about living in mud huts, wrapping your babies in dried goat droppings, and chasing after yaks ............ unique ``culture`` indeed !

hamidm2
I am amazed at your thoughts. The people of Northern Areas never consider themselves as kashmiris and are amongst the staunchest of Pakistanis. Please do not give distorted versions. We are a federation and must the smallest of all ethnic/ relogious minorities. Your comments are going to deflect discussions on this board.

Cheerios

We are a federation and must respect the smallest of all ethnic/ religious minorities.

#1
I have a suggestion here:
Why not lease the Kashmir to some American based company for 50 years. We will develop the tourism there and give the profits based on 2/3/, 1/3 ro India/Pakistan respectively. Everybody is happy this way.

American company will pump in money to develop Skiing/skating/vacation resorts and other infrastructure.

i love the balti chicken with a lager at garfunkels pub in terminal 4 at heathrow ;-)

kargil seems like the place where buddhism ends and islam begins in ladakh. kargil, although mostly shia-muslim, still has some buddhists and their (live) monestaries.

http://kargil.nic.in/tourism/monastery.htm

are there any buddhist with live monasteris in skardu or other part of northern areas? what are the famous dead monasteries in that area?

Re: # 7
My Relatives used to go for hunting in Skardu before 1947.
It is definitely not Pakistani type place.

Re: # 7 Jang;

A minor correction on Balti Chicken;

It has not originated in Baltistan. The Balti Chicken ( in punjabi language Balti Murgh ) is a favourite dish from Gujranwala, Lahore in Punjab Pakistan. Next time when you enjoy Balti Chicken in heathrow, you should have the murky streets of inner city of Gujranwala and Gowalmandi Lahore should be in the backdrop of your mind.

#9 thanks colonel..i was aware of this, and that is why the ;-)

in fact the chicken comes in a little balti (a bucket).

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Ref ijaz_gul #4

[....I am amazed at your thoughts. The people of Northern Areas never consider themselves as kashmiris and are amongst the staunchest of Pakistanis. Please do not give distorted versions. We are a federation and must (respect) the smallest of all ethnic/ relogious minorities.]

On the other hand, we Pakistanis don`t give a sh!t about the majority, particularly when they are dark, short, wear the dhoti instead of the shalwar, and speak Bengali instead of Urdu. In fact, we kill and rape them by the millions.

Ladakhis are primarly Buddhist and folks from Gilgit are Muslims. The most you can say is that Kargil is Muslim and so people from Skardu might want to meet their relatives in Kargil and vice versa. The guys in Skardu have nothing to do with the Buddhists in Leh for instance, except that in 1947 they crossed over and looted the monasteries and destroyed the statues. So don`t bring Ladakh into the picture. Ladakh is not Muslim. In fact, Ladakh even asked to be transferred to China rather than live under the Muslim majority of Kashmir Valley.

As to hamidm2`s question about what language these people speak, the language/dialect varies every couple of miles. Of course the folks here were/are as incurious about learning their own language as the Masanamuthus of Tamil Nadu that it took a white man, G W Leitner, to write the first dictionary of the language of Dardistan, to establish what grew into the University of the Punjab at Lahore and even the Oriental Institute in Woking, England.

M. Ismail Khan and Ijaz Gul saheb,
One of you is from Nothern Areas and another has travelled extensively to those areas. Would you please tell us how many Buddhists still live in Nothern areas and how many functional monasteries are there? If possible, please post photographs of such monasteries.

Which one are more famous one?

Re: # 14
Friend
I have served / traveled extensively the northern areas during my service and as an amateur mountaineer with a number of foreign mountaineering expedition. Never heard of any sizeable Buddhists population or active monastery in pakistani territories.

Re: # 8

Dehliwala;

I guess you are right. Skardu is unlike any typical Pakistani place; same as most places in the southern india are not like India either. Their is something called diversity, and it is a desirealbe feature in the making of any nation.
Perhaps the place which emanates Pakistan most is none else but Dehli itself. Dehli`s most prodigious son is who else but general Musharraf.

Colonel
Perhaps Ijaz Gul or Mr M Ismail Khan will know some!!

harimau,
Though democracy remains experimental etc, your assertions are wrong. There is diversity but all the same sub nationalism also remains part of the nationhood. Plz dont deflect the discussion.

As for Balti Murgh, its another name for Karahi Chicken. Its origins lie in NWFP and Balochistan. The meat in small pieces is stir fried in oil/ghee and cooked in its own moisture. Then tamatoes and masalas are added to taste.

Karahi tiyar hai

The modern dish became famous because of Bhatti Tikka Shop at Mozang Lahore. Their cook Jalal ud din, a Kashmiri from Bagh later shifted to Rawalpindia nd was employed by a butcher to make similar Karahi. The butcher became rich into JAHANGHIR BALTI MURGH, and efcourse Jalal known now as Bhatti left in the lurch.


Northern areas are distinct in three ways. Areas around Chilas have gujjars, pathans, hindkos and some local Gilgities and Baltis. It borders NWFP and there is lots of Pathan influence there. Fairiies Meadows close to Nanga Parbat is located here. Further right are the deosai plains and the Babusar Pass also used by Alexander. Some say that most locals are of Greek lineage.

Gilgit itself has a large imprint of the moguls and turkic people. People in Hunza have very long life spans. They are invariably tall, well built and handsome. They are mostly Sunni though Ismailis are growing fast.

Baltistan is tyhe backyard. Neglected and remote. There are as many dialects as villages and in same propotion varios sects of Shiaism. Majority are Shia in various categoraies. Good hardy people, living in baject poverty. This is the are that has K2, Hidden Peak
(Gashebrum1), Gashebrum2, 3, 4 5, Mashebrum, Baltoro, Siachin etc.

Yes traces of Buddist practices can be found in remote villages, old monastaries exist including drawings on mountains. In antiquity, this entire region was linked to Swat, visible in cave and cliff paintings.

Surprisingly, many crosses are also seen. Biblical scholars opine that a christian heriric group had also inhabited this area but was eliminated ny the Zoarastrians and later muslims.

harimau,
Though democracy remains experimental etc, your assertions are wrong. There is diversity but all the same sub nationalism also remains part of the nationhood. Plz dont deflect the discussion.

As for Balti Murgh, its another name for Karahi Chicken. Its origins lie in NWFP and Balochistan. The meat in small pieces is stir fried in oil/ghee and cooked in its own moisture. Then tamatoes and masalas are added to taste.

Karahi tiyar hai

The modern dish became famous because of Bhatti Tikka Shop at Mozang Lahore. Their cook Jalal ud din, a Kashmiri from Bagh later shifted to Rawalpindia nd was employed by a butcher to make similar Karahi. The butcher became rich into JAHANGHIR BALTI MURGH, and efcourse Jalal known now as Bhatti left in the lurch.


Northern areas are distinct in three ways. Areas around Chilas have gujjars, pathans, hindkos and some local Gilgities and Baltis. It borders NWFP and there is lots of Pathan influence there. Fairiies Meadows close to Nanga Parbat is located here. Further right are the deosai plains and the Babusar Pass also used by Alexander. Some say that most locals are of Greek lineage.

Gilgit itself has a large imprint of the moguls and turkic people. People in Hunza have very long life spans. They are invariably tall, well built and handsome. They are mostly Sunni though Ismailis are growing fast.

Baltistan is tyhe backyard. Neglected and remote. There are as many dialects as villages and in same propotion varios sects of Shiaism. Majority are Shia in various categoraies. Good hardy people, living in baject poverty. This is the are that has K2, Hidden Peak
(Gashebrum1), Gashebrum2, 3, 4 5, Mashebrum, Baltoro, Siachin etc.

Yes traces of Buddist practices can be found in remote villages, old monastaries exist including drawings on mountains. In antiquity, this entire region was linked to Swat, visible in cave and cliff paintings.

Surprisingly, many crosses are also seen. Biblical scholars opine that a christian heriric group had also inhabited this area but was eliminated ny the Zoarastrians and later muslims.

I have travelled & trekked in Kargil, Ladakh and adjoining areas. Buddhist monasteries and culture is visible and thriving everywhere. It is strange that monasteries and buddhist culture just disappear from face of earth from other side of line of control. 70 years of communist rule in China couldn`t do what 60 years of Pakistni rule has done to occupied part of Kashmir.

While all this talk of porus borders and two way communication sounds very pleasant, question is, do we really need it and will it really be good for preserving the ethnic culture of region? Entire non-muslim population of these areas was wiped out within few months of 1947. It is strange that now residents of nothern areas want free access to Kargil, Leh and Ladakh!!

I have one suggestion if resident of Nothern areas are really feeling lonely and nostalgic about their lost culture. Open border in one direction. Let people of Kargil and Ladakh go to nothern areas. No reverse traffic should be permitted otherwise it will have an adverse impact on existing ethenic mix of Ladakh.

......... eliminate all ethnic minorities ...........

........... and by that i don`t mean we should, god forbid, kill them or expel them like they do in gujarat or darfur ........... i mean let`s inter-marry, stop speaking silly languages that don`t even have a written script, stop wearing funny clothes, eating funny food and acting like a bunch of primitive natives ......... and it can be done - my family is living proof ......... in one generation we have managed to wipe out all the pathans and punjabis on both sides of the family and have created an army of happy half-breeds that has given up the niswar and the hookah, speak urdu, eat karahi gosht and would not be seen dead in a dhoti or carrying a firearm .......... and it was not even twenty five years ago that grandpa mansha would sit around under the pipal tree, pulling on the hookah and listening to some fool singing heer .......... while on the other side of the country, granda khanbaba would walk around town with a revolver on his hip and a karakul cap on his head............ he never left home without those two items, now his grandson works for american express .........

......... and it is okay to retain some of your ancestors` bad habits - i still have to have green tea after dinner and prefer lamb over goat and think that people who eat dal are borderline hindoos - but that is about the extent of my pathan pride ......... on the other hand, the only time i give in to my potohari innstincts is when i have to yell at a jackass standing in the middle of the road - it seems that jackasses only understand potohari (sheikh rashid is the only human who understands this horrible language)

......... it is silly for educated pakis to promote primitive ethnic cultures just because it is politically correct ........ we are not doing these people a favors by encouraging their backward ways - we might as well stick them all on a reservation and supply them with feathers and alcohol ............. then on sunday`s we can pile up in our tour busses and go look at them in their cages ..........

ijaz_gul #5

{{The people of Northern Areas never consider themselves as kashmiris and are amongst the staunchest of Pakistanis. Please do not give distorted versions.}}

More ‘distorted versions’ from these ‘staunchest of Pakistanis’:

Balawaristan National Front

Re: # 22

... aleph,

.... it is amazing how you indians know of things that most pakis know nothing about ! ........ now, i have travelled extensively in that are and have neve met anyone who calls it balwaristan ( there is baltistan, gilgit, skardu, hunza, chitral, etc , but never balwaristan) ............ are you sure this is not a raw site still trying to get even for the khalistan thing ? ......... ijaz gul is right - gilgitis and baltis might be backward and simple, but they are about as partiotic an paki can get without actually going out and killing a hindoo to prove his credentials .......

#22 heh heh...that is what salim has been proposing for a while..let the wrong culture from the wrong side of the order be diluted-corrected from the wrong path its been on since 1947..(offcourse what i mean is since the british left)..now brits are gone, but make do with slightly more civilized ambersaris.. ;-)

i personally think the quaint emerged cultural identity ought to be preserved.

Societies evolve. Quicker the modernisation, faster the urbanisation and migration of people. If We are to take hamidm2`s suggestion, then are educated Pakistanis prepared to give their urban daughters to illiterates of far flung areas whose whole life revolves around apricots. They serve as food, source of oil for cooking and lighting, moisturiser for body and source of protiens. Lets be practical and as humans, we must protect the identity of small ethnic groups.

As for AlephNull, distortion of one is the reality of the other. No wonder, we will never get along.

Cheerios

#21 agree 100%. There are, as a wise friend of mine said in college when a discussion on ethnicities took place, only two kinds of people in this world - men and women. All other divisions are artificial ones meant to keep together herds of fools.

And sure enough - these herds of fools are too be find all over chowk, toeing their respective government`s propaganda lines...

Writer:
Why did you leave out the info on massacre of shias in Gilgit in 1988 and the israeli style settlement of sunni tribals in that area orchestrated by Brigadier Musharraf?

So, hamidm you want Pakistan Army to ``sort out`` every single person from oppressed ethnicities and cultures for the lofty ideals of humanism and moderate enlightenment?

Re: # 19

Mr. Gul need to get his fact right.

1. Hunza is predominangitly ismaili, and not sunni
2. I have visited about 40 Balti resteurant in London alone which have been selling Balti food. Many of their printed manues carries a brief histroy and intro about Baltistan and influence of recipe and spice from Tibet, Sichuan, Tajik, Persia and Kashmir on Balti foos. part of it is fact part fiction. The fact is that Balti do have special food, cooked in special utinsil (kwat - a kind of cooker curved out of granite) which makes the cooking and food special.
3. Chilas has majority Sheena (sunni) population, many of them will have to be relocated once the Diamir / Bhasha dam is constructed. Gilgit has a mix (Sheen - Yashkun) population. Religiously it is equaly divided between Shia and Sunni population. Large number of Ismailis also live there. Yes, there is a pathan influence, most of the mochis and smuggler on KKH are pathans, yes they have been instrumental in bringing in charas, opium and klashinkove culture, not to mention the secterian voilance.

4. I have had opportunties to travel in NWFP (including swat) and Balochistan, compares to average individual in those two provinces, Baltis are far more civilized, peaceful and well off, yesterday and today...

Re: # 27

....... no, i don`t want anyone to force anyone to do anything, i simply want people to stop eating dal/rice with their fingers and running around in dhotis - there is no honor in behaving like a bunch of madrasis ......... a lot of this crap about protecting ethnic cultures and nobel savages was promoted by the the gora sahib to please his mem sahib who loved the natives` simple life and quaint habits ......... ``see darling, they are so innocent, they run around half-naked and yet nobody thinks of sex``......... i say, give the man some decent clothes even if it makes him horny !

Re: # 29

Btw mr. hamidm2,
who taught you to dress in pants and use forks, knives and spoons to eat daal and rice? Arabs?

hamidum2 #21, {``i mean let`s inter-marry, stop speaking silly languages that don`t even have a written script, stop wearing funny clothes, eating funny food and acting like a bunch of primitive natives ......... and it can be done - my family is living proof ......... in one generation we have managed to wipe out all the pathans and punjabis on both sides of the family and have created an army of happy half-breeds that has given up the niswar and the hookah, speak urdu, eat karahi gosht and would not be seen dead in a dhoti or carrying a firearm ..``}

AmaaN Hamid bhayya, tumre pas bahut akal agawat he. Yeh tum har ik Ram, Dhakkan, aur Hari maaN saath shaadi karke sabka ek hi banadeyat ho - yeh to susri bohot hi achchi baat karat ho. Hum tuhaar eee-mail humre sab bhayya or ma sath lagaadeyyo. Hum oooi susray Tahmed4 ki ijjat ki kassam kha ke tumka yakeen dilayet hen ke ab koi susra mai ka lal bihari ka bachcha paan nahi khaaiba aur na diwaar ooper pichkaari marba. Na koi bihari bubwa tahmed pahenwa aur na dhoti. Bus tum bhayya ek aad futloon aur oooi susri salwar bhejdiyyo humre paas. Aur haan woh saali lumbi lumbi achkan na deiyoo, humka grami bahut lagat he - ek aad mulmul ka kurta bas bhejdeyyo. Bahut bahut sukriyaa or Bhabhi Hmong ko humra salaam deidejiyo. Haan Punjabi maaN kahat hen, tumka Rab rakhe. Khuda Hafij.

hamidum2 #21, {``i mean let`s inter-marry, stop speaking silly languages that don`t even have a written script, stop wearing funny clothes, eating funny food and acting like a bunch of primitive natives ......... and it can be done - my family is living proof ......... in one generation we have managed to wipe out all the pathans and punjabis on both sides of the family and have created an army of happy half-breeds that has given up the niswar and the hookah, speak urdu, eat karahi gosht and would not be seen dead in a dhoti or carrying a firearm ..``}

AmaaN Hamid bhayya, tumre pas bahut akal agawat he. Yeh tum har ik Ram, Dhakkan, aur Hari maaN saath shaadi karke sabka ek hi banadeyat ho - yeh to susri bohot hi achchi baat karat ho. Hum tuhaar eee-mail humre sab bhayya or ma sath lagaadeyyo. Hum oooi susray Tahmed4 ki ijjat ki kassam kha ke tumka yakeen dilayet hen ke ab koi susra mai ka lal bihari ka bachcha paan nahi khaaiba aur na diwaar ooper pichkaari marba. Na koi bihari bubwa tahmed pahenwa aur na dhoti. Bus tum bhayya ek aad futloon aur oooi susri salwar bhejdiyyo humre paas. Aur haan woh saali lumbi lumbi achkan na deiyoo, humka grami bahut lagat he - ek aad mulmul ka kurta bas bhejdeyyo. Bahut bahut sukriyaa or Bhabhi Hmong ko humra salaam deidejiyo. Haan Punjabi maaN kahat hen, tumka Rab rakhe. Khuda Hafij.

Ismail Khan Sahib,
Thank you for a very informative article about the Northern Areas. I have always been fascinated by the spectacle of the world`s highest peaks all arranged in a semicircle in a theatrical display of awesome majesty. One day I hope to travel there and see it for myself. Inshallah, your hope of peace in the mountains and glaciers will come true. I do regret the loss of Aksai Chin and Shaksgram to a nation that has no real attachment to the area. When will India and Pakistan appreciate their common heritage and stop losing ground to outsiders?

Hamid mian

(i mean let`s inter-marry, )

There was a Hollywood movie sometime back where they ask a drunk Presi candidate his solution for the race problem, his reply I believe was ``Lets F*** each other till we are of the colour``

(gilgitis and baltis might be backward and simple, but they are about as partiotic an paki can get without actually going out and killing a hindoo to prove his credentials )

However when a gilgiti and balti does get killed killing Hanuds, his corpse is let to rot on the mountains.

Regards

I consider this to be an extremely well-written article, and for some one like me based in Mumbai it has been very instructive. I have learnt a lot from the interacts too.

I should think that the author has made very sincere proposals based on eminently sound and acceptance-worthy grounds. One hopes that the policy-makers on both sides decide and act fast. The direction is clear but it is only a matter of time. Elements prone to resort to terrorism/violence should abdicate their mentality. If there is peace in the region, the Berlin-Wall will have to come down soon.

--V.S.Gopalakrishnan

By the way, the article should have commenced with, perhaps, ``In July 2005`` and not July 2006.
--V.S.Gopalakrishnan