Modi’s Men and their Mean Machines

Oh no not again!!!!
The municipality is elected body. If the site is heritage site, then take help of ASI to preserve it. Why India needs to protect tombs?

Lets see how conviniently FV forgets to mention that hindu passerby were lynched by mobs. Following are the names of two of them:
Two passersby by Biren Shah (23) and Ramchandra Meena (35), an Army Subedar from Patiala got lynched by an angry mob.
Following two protesters were killed during police firing when it failed to control the mob using tear gas and lathi:
Two youths Hussain Dhobi (25) and Mohammed Ayaz Mansuri (22) were killed by police bullets.
This article is all accusations with no show proof. Very similar to other english media/journalist of our country.

nasah:

No, it was not ``bhung``, just a little ginger with scotch.:)

If you like communists, it is a matter of rejoicing that they have scored a seventh consecutive election victory in West Bengal - a record unmatched by communists anywhere in the world. Even if you are pro-capitalist, it is a matter of rejoicing because the communist govt. under Budhadev is the most zealous pro-capiatlist govt. in India.

Re: # 198

harimau mian -- the sentence should have been -- 4.75 casteless votes out of total 5 lakhs votes cast`` -- she may be your nightmare `mlech` -- but look at it this way -- be proud of ur Indian political system that transformed -- that is Indianized -- an Italian housewife into an Indian Queen of Democracy in just two decades....

...into an election winner with the biggest margin of votes ever in the entire history of the Indian politics.

the same system that Indianized the world pariah totalitarian communists into one of the most democratic communists of the entire world who just -- ``scored a seventh consecutive election victory in West Bengal - a record unmatched by communists anywhere in the world.`` as aptly described my friend dost mitter ji...

my dear Hari -- don`t worry -- be happy......for the Midas Touch of Indian democracy -- it may be crazy but it`s lovely demo-crazy.....

Ref nasah #192

[but Harimau mian -- with what a margin! -- 4.75 lakhs out of total 5 casteless lakhs votes cast!.......:) -- makes you eat your heart out -- doesn`t it.........:) ]

Casteless? In UP? No frikking way!

The voters all had some caste or other. The one that didn`t have it -- except being classified as a mlechh -- is Sonia.

The Constitution should be amended so that no mlechh is allowed to run for elected office. And no half-breeds either. That would take care of the entire Gandhi clan ;)

#195 by dost-mittar on May 12, 2006 11:49am PT


the govt.`s moving closer to the US, which IMs consider as anti-muslim.


More proof that muslims care about the rights of their fellow muslims in iraq/palestine over the rights of their fellow Indian citizens..ummah homies uber alles..

nasah#192:

There is both good and bad in the election results. The good part is that both the BJP and the Muslim League (in Kerala) suffered major defeats. The bad part is that BJP did not have a significant presence in any of the states and the Muslim League lost because of the `wrong` reason, namely, its alliance with the UPA govt. in Delhi and the govt.`s moving closer to the US, which IMs consider as anti-muslim. Indeed, anti-govt. Muslim vote played a crucial part in both Bengal and Kerala where communists, opposing the Congress, presented themselves as opposed to the UPA`s foreign policy.

Re: # 195

maray aziz dost mitter ji -- do you have to put rung in my bhung -- or bhung in my rung -- with your cool rational explanations for everything...:)...do you?...:)

pleeze let me enjoy the moment -- savour the delicious victory with this glass of Indian Shampaniaa....cheers........:))))))

well ain`t that a shocker..

Educated Muslims found to have supported September 11 attacks

By Khalid Hasan

WASHINGTON: A Gallop poll survey of eight Muslim countries has shown that those who applauded the 9/11 attacks tended to be better educated and more affluent. They were not necessarily more religious that other Muslims. The poll found that those who regularly attended the mosque were no more likely to back terrorism than those who did not. This also held true of Muslims who believed religion to be important in daily life. According to a Washington Post report, about 25 percent of all Muslims with a higher-than-average income supported the 9/11 attacks, more than the less affluent and the poor Muslims did. Among high school or college graduates, 44 percent held extremist views, compared with 38 percent of less educated Muslims. The unemployed were no more likely to back terrorism than those who worked full time. Extremists were only half as likely as moderates to believe that the US would allow people in the Middle East to fashion their own political future.

``Progressivism, as defined by re-electing an Italian b!tch imported to ``improve`` the bloodlines.``(Hari)

but Harimau mian -- with what a margin! -- 4.75 lakhs out of total 5 casteless lakhs votes cast!.......:) -- makes you eat your heart out -- doesn`t it.........:)

Re: # 192
She is gori chitti no.-) Such a nice complexion, wears the sari so well, and nice bahu and all.. She is our Sonia.

Ref nasah #190

[the rumors of of death of Indian progressivism were indeeeeeeeed highly exaggerated...]

Progressivism, as defined by re-electing an Italian b!tch imported to ``improve`` the bloodlines.

[......from Bengal to Pondicherry -- from Assam to Kerala -- the real India has re triumphed.....]

Indians will be told to swim upstream with their hands and feet shackled.

Real India? I don`t doubt it at all.

I am surprised that you did not include Doctor Artist Leader the Fund of Compassion`s victory in Tamil Nadu. Asli-Masanamuthu will soon be producing a false poverty certificate to lay claim to a free color TV and two acres of land. (In case you didn`t know it, those were the election promises. That financial genius P. Chidambaram in fact went on TV and said that free color TVs -- about 6 million of them for Tamil Nadu`s poor -- might cost the government absolutely nothing. That being the case, I wonder why houses, plane tickets, hotel stays, etc., too should not be handed out free as they should also cost the exchequer nothing.)

the rumors of of death of Indian progressivism were indeeeeeeeed highly exaggerated...

......from Bengal to Pondicherry -- from Assam to Kerala -- the real India has re triumphed.....

now Gujrat the Gangrene is next on the chopping block....time to chop off that dreadful dead limb from the Indian body politics .....and hang that human barbecuing bearded bastard from under the nearest election poster.... ...

it`s .... time to dial M for that murdering mongrel modi....his days are numbered....

#180 by FarzanaVersey

1. The Indian government does not equal Hindu government, according to the Constitution.

I didn`t imply that either. It was just a tongue-in-cheek comment on how certain educated Muslims perceive it to be.

2. When a state runs roughshod with the use of the establishment machinery over a community, then the question of partisanship arises. Dalits too complain about not being uplifted…

That is what my complaint is. Despite the fact that Indians at all levels, irrespective of their caste and religion feel discriminated aginst, certain individuals are quick to pounce on the government as being partial towards Hindus.

3. No one ignores rigging of elections in UP and Bihar.

Rigged elections are said to have been the cause for the Kashmir uprising and some individuals are arguing that if elections were fair, everything would have been hunky-dory.

4. Gudiya became a televised spectacle where SHE was put before a TV court; it isn’t as though her husband was arrested and the case was in a judicial court. Which happened in the Shankaracharya’s case.

At least Gudiya`s case concerned her and her immediate family members. Shankaracharya is revered by millions of Hindus. Please note that I`m not exonerating him of the crime he`s supposed to have committed, but did you see the kind of protests and violence that accompanied the protests against the Danish cartoons? Despite some murmurs, did Hindus go to town protesting against his humiliation?

You run a search. I will only post an excerpt from an article by Asgharali Engineer:

You said `regular text books`. The text books followed by the supposedly RSS schools are NOT by any stretch regular. It would have been another issue had it been the state text books. Apparently from Mr. Engineer`s article, it isn`t.

HP #185,
Good Job. I am impressed with your linguistic abilities. Are you sure that you are an old Sindhi?
Good news is that Altaf Bhai will allow you guys to live in Karachi. Just a couple of requests - none of those funny mustaches you guys keep. Oh and no more Karo Kari and Maro Mari stuff. You gotta cut all that funny stuff out. Also, only one marriage to one life-long partner - you Sindhis gotta suffer like the rest of us. Lastly, no main course and a side dish as you guys are accustomed to. Yes, only one value meal per man and no side dishes. OK?

#183 by Harimau:

[“....Here you go again. I do not think going against Pakistan should be a yardstick to prove your loyalty. Does anyone ask IMs to go against the US, Germany, or even Bangladesh?”

Actually, haven`t the mullahs asked IMs to go against the US for Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.? And against poor Netherlands for the Prophet Mohammad cartoons?]

We are not talking mullahs here, who everyone else but the IMs seems to be obsessed with. Re. Danish cartoons, the Left was involved in the protest movements, too.

[So if the mullahs can ask IMs to prove their Muslimness, what is wrong with the rest of Indians asking them to prove their Indian-ness?]

You can’t be serious.

1. On what grounds are the rest of the Indians qualified to do so? And who are they and why are they different?
2. How would they prove their own Indianness?
3. Does it mean Muslims too can ask them to prove their Indianness?
4. A mullah may be a keeper of faith; a citizen is NOT a keeper of other people’s patriotism.
5. How dare you even put forward such a question?

[Does the Christian church ask Indian Christians to prove their adherence to Christianity by supporting Great Britain/USA/Germany, etc.?]

Aha, it is nice to see you for once not rubbishing missionaries. UK, US, Germany are not conquered states, so there does not seem to be any reason to support them.

[And aren`t these the same historians who justify the jizya as a tax on kaffirs for not serving in the Army but ``enjoying`` the protection afforded by the State? Why do Indian Muslims scream bloody murder not if Indians want them to ``enjoy`` a little bit of the treatment they meted out to Hindus for 1000 years but just for asking them to follow a common Civil Code?]

Don’t you get tired? Do I have to reiterate that there is no comparison between a colonised state and a democracy? IMs do not scream bloody murder, though some do object to a UCC. I don’t. Many don’t. But why is no one coming up with a draft? Try it. Show us the blueprint. Because everyone knows that the ones who will suffer the most will be Hindus.

And don’t ask me to go into details. I will save that for another article.

#185

HP jii

Shukriaa.
WoW!!

You guys know all these languages. I wish I could understand all these sweet languages......
I only know udru, punjabi and little bit of pushto...............

FV knows all this?? Surprise

#184 Zeena,

Okay here is the translation in Urdu-English mix. Haven’t talked to poorbis in a long time.

Jaun milaa naahin ooka bisraee ka sawwal howat kahaan?

In urdu
Jo mila hee nahin uss kay khonay kaa kiya sawwal paeda hota hai.(refers to the lost cause)

Ghumayee-firayee ke to hi baat hui na ki
Urdu
Ghumaa- phira(twist) kay baat nahin karo

do-chaar shabad tohar saath batiya di aur bas khusee-khusee kaisan bhi ooka jubaan se samajhdaari ka phool barsan laage.

Urdu/Eng
Doochar (a couple of words) lafaz uss nay keh diya and now you have started praising him.

Maooka milat ho to tohar Chowkan ka Mother Teresa banva hi layee de. Humra aashirbaad hove tohar maathey par.

If it were in my power, I would have made you chowk’s mother Teresa. You have my blessings (sarcastic)

In a nutshell, a put down.…

by Farzana Versey:-

{{{{Lost cause? Jaun milaa naahin ooka bisraee ka sawwal howat kahaan? Ghumayee-firayee ke to hi baat hui na ki do-chaar shabad tohar saath batiya di aur bas khusee-khusee kaisan bhi ooka jubaan se samajhdaari ka phool barsan laage. Maooka milat ho to tohar Chowkan ka Mother Teresa banva hi layee de. Humra aashirbaad hove tohar maathey par.}}}???
What is this?

Ref Farzana Versey #180

[....Here you go again. I do not think going against Pakistan should be a yardstick to prove your loyalty. Does anyone ask IMs to go against the US, Germany, or even Bangladesh?]

Actually, haven`t the mullahs asked IMs to go against the US for Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.? And against poor Netherlands for the Prophet Mohammad cartoons?

So if the mullahs can ask IMs to prove their Muslimness, what is wrong with the rest of Indians asking them to prove their Indian-ness?

Does the Christian church ask Indian Christians to prove their adherence to Christianity by supporting Great Britain/USA/Germany, etc.?

[You run a search. I will only post an excerpt from an article by Asgharali Engineer:

“The whole education system was communalised. That is the first priority of all communal and fascist forces to control education. Mr. Murli Manohar Joshi was a hard core RSS man and he was put at the helm of Human Resources Ministry. He successfully implemented RSS agenda by communalising our education system. The RSS schools teach textbooks openly preaching hatred against minorities, especially in Sishu Vihars. Thousands of students study in these schools.

The premier social and historical research organisations like the Indian Social Science Research Organisation and Indian Historical Research Organisation were handed over to hardcore RSS and VHP persons. All this will have to be wrested back from their control. It was a systematic conspiracy. Similarly key personnel were appointed from RSS supporters in premier educational research body like the NCERT which prepares text books which form the minds of lakhs of students every year. Mr. Joshi got these textbooks changed in keeping with his RSS commitment. Many eminent historians protested but to no avail. The damage was done and Mr.Joshi was to prepared to undo his RSS agenda. It was to implement this agenda that he was given this ministry.” ]

Exactly what kind of propaganda has been taught to us by earlier textbooks from NCERT and by history books by the likes of Romila Thapar and K N Panikkar?

Isn`t Romila Thapar the one to justify the destruction of Hindu temples by saying that victorious Hindu kings would take away the idols of the family deities of defeated Hindu kings? As if that is equivalent to demolishing the temple, killing the local citizens and taking their women as war booty!

And isn`t Romila Thapar the one who trots out the same Aurangzeb firman granting some money to some Hindu temple as evidence of religious tolerance completely ignoring the fact that the thug was responsible for demolishing thousands of temples?

And aren`t these the same historians who justify the jizya as a tax on kaffirs for not serving in the Army but ``enjoying`` the protection afforded by the State? Why do Indian Muslims scream bloody murder not if Indians want them to ``enjoy`` a little bit of the treatment they meted out to Hindus for 1000 years but just for asking them to follow a common Civil Code?

FarzanaVersey #180 {``Do not make the mistake that IMs have ever looked for sympathy from Pakistan. However, if the occasion arises (on issues of human rights) and sympathy is expressed, I see it as a perfectly civilised thing to do.``}

Farzana,
I was merely stating that IMs shouldn`t mistake the sympathy from Pakistan as anything genuine. It has nothing to do with IMs, or Urdu, or even ``stranded`` Pakistani in BD. The ``sons of the soil`` in Pakistan are against IMs because they detest Mohajirs. They complain against Urdu, because they don`t like Mohajirs (or HindustaaNRas as they call us). They don`t want the ``Biharis`` to come home, because they don`t want to add to the number of Mohajirs. It`s something that you should understand - having spent time in Karachi.

{``Here you go again. I do not think going against Pakistan should be a yardstick to prove your loyalty. Does anyone ask IMs to go against the US, Germany, or even Bangladesh? Why does one have to state that one’s relatives are passionately against Pakistan? I am not and yet I am a patriotic Indian, although by no means blind to the flaws of my country. This makes me a greater nationalist than many with blinkers on.``}

Farzana,
Why hang your hat on an issue that is not conducive to anything good for IMs? Many Indians base their own nationalism on their aversion to Pakistan. For most Indians, thanks to Indian government propaganda, thanks to the horrible partition, four wars, terrorism, and thanks to the stupid behavior of Pakistani governments and many Pakistani citizens, their neighbor is a bete noir. For an IM to express any loyalty, sympathy, or support for Pakistan is considered to be the ultimate act of treason by many Hindus and Sikhs, even the moderate ones. This is a fact and there are numerous valid reasons for this perception. An IM supporting Egypt or Tunisia is acceptable and even encouraged.

{``Indeed. It is either the Stockholm Syndrome or a deep-seated masochistic tendency. However, I would request you not to promote this two-day respite as a special spa treatment – we just end up having too many takers with little steam… ``}

Neither - I just appreciate objectivity and fair treatment. This is true even when I am punished for behaving badly. Judging by the number of takers recently, there appeared to be quite a bit of steam left in some. :) That`s what you get for confusing me with double talk.

{``Maooka milat ho to tohar Chowkan ka Mother Teresa banva hi layee de. Humra aashirbaad hove tohar maathey par.``}

Wow! I am impressed. You must be really very well-educated. Anybody from the big city who can master the lovely Poorabya is top notch in my book. You simply caught me off-guard with that flowery utterance. I spent several months outside Lucknow trying to learn this most pleasant of languages - one day I hope to get a PhD in Poorbi. :)

Humra maatha bahut khushkismat huvat he. Humka nahin maaloom huwat tha ke tumka kachchi bolna aawat he. Aab aab kehet margavan aur bistar thalle pani rakha raiga.

I heard some elders tell this joke in Lucknow:

Two Persians were walking around old Awadh and came across a simple Poorbhi farmboy. ``Chimmi goi?`` asked one of the travelers. ``Tel ki poi`` responded the boy - rhyming verse for verse in trying to hide the fact that he could not understand the well-dressed urban gentlemen. ``Shuma ke braader?`` asked the second man. Perplexed and embarrassed at not understanding the obviously refined men, the boy responded ``Chaar Daangar,`` making a sign of four fingers with his right hand. Frustrated at the boy`s answers, the first man questioned with a raised voice ``Pidar bahayaat?`` At this the boy shouted back ``Bandhey bhoosa khaat,`` while pointing to the buffalo near his hut.

Will the demolition of dargah really lead to a broadening of the highway?

See BBC report: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4753825.stm

Excerpt:

JK Bandukwala is a Muslim professor at Baroda University and an outspoken critic of religious violence.

His house was ransacked in 2002 and he has been attacked four times since then.

Fearing another attack on him, he was removed from his house by his friends the day the Muslim shrine was demolished - an act he feels was completely ``uncalled for``.

He points out that the shrine was located a few feet away from an ancient arched gateway which is an archaeological site and therefore protected from demolition.

He refuses to accept that the demolition of the shrine would widen the road in the area and reduce traffic jams.

``I can accept that only if you demolish the Gate too - which is much bigger in size,`` he said.

Supporting the drive

But many others in the city, mostly upper and middle class Hindus, are not against the demolition drive.

``After all this is done to widen a road and build infrastructure - that would benefit all. One shouldn`t oppose that,`` says Dr Vijay Trivedi who teaches chemistry in a local college.

The mayor of Baroda, Sunil Solanki, is a member of the Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party and has led the demolition drive.

He said his intention was not to ``insult`` any religious sentiment but to reduce traffic jams and pollution in that area.

``Our planning was approved by the tourism department of Gujarat and only after that we went for a drive,`` Mr Solanki said

He also said that he talked to the representatives of the Muslim community.

``Some of them supported our move. But I can`t name who they are,`` he said

I asked him how the demolition of the shrine could reduce traffic jams while a bigger gate was obstructing the traffic anyway.

``Our drive was confined only to the old city. The Dargah [shrine] falls in the old city.

``Besides, the gate was built by the great Gujarati [Hindu] ruler Sayaji Rao Gaekwad. It is part of city`s heritage - how can we demolish that?`` he added.

#179 by harish_hyd:

[“Do you think illiteracy is restricted to only Muslims in India?”

Then why is the Indian (read Hindu) government readily blamed for being partisan and not doing enough to uplift the Muslim community? Why is Kashmir cited as a case of rigged elections when what happens in UP and Bihar would put them to shame? Why is the Gudiya case cited as an example of making a spectacle of the Muslim community when even the Kanchi Shankaracharya was arrested and the entire Hindu community felt humiliated?]

1. The Indian government does not equal Hindu government, according to the Constitution.
2. When a state runs roughshod with the use of the establishment machinery over a community, then the question of partisanship arises. Dalits too complain about not being uplifted…
3. No one ignores rigging of elections in UP and Bihar.
4. Gudiya became a televised spectacle where SHE was put before a TV court; it isn’t as though her husband was arrested and the case was in a judicial court. Which happened in the Shankaracharya’s case.

[Which text books contain lies and exaggeration? Is there anything in any text book that contains anti-Muslim propaganda? Kindly be specific.]

You run a search. I will only post an excerpt from an article by Asgharali Engineer:

“The whole education system was communalised. That is the first priority of all communal and fascist forces to control education. Mr. Murli Manohar Joshi was a hard core RSS man and he was put at the helm of Human Resources Ministry. He successfully implemented RSS agenda by communalising our education system. The RSS schools teach textbooks openly preaching hatred against minorities, especially in Sishu Vihars. Thousands of students study in these schools.

The premier social and historical research organisations like the Indian Social Science Research Organisation and Indian Historical Research Organisation were handed over to hardcore RSS and VHP persons. All this will have to be wrested back from their control. It was a systematic conspiracy. Similarly key personnel were appointed from RSS supporters in premier educational research body like the NCERT which prepares text books which form the minds of lakhs of students every year. Mr. Joshi got these textbooks changed in keeping with his RSS commitment. Many eminent historians protested but to no avail. The damage was done and Mr.Joshi was to prepared to undo his RSS agenda. It was to implement this agenda that he was given this ministry.”

http://www.countercurrents.org/ie-engineer010604.htm

- - -
#177 by Salim_Chauhan:

The idea of the article and subsequent posts is not to get into a ‘is Pak-Afghan-Saudi attitude worse’ discussion.

This is about India.

[What is most damaging to IM`s interest is any sympathy expressed for Pakistan. This sympathy is not needed, not necessary, and certainly misplaced. People in Pakistan, other than Mohajir relatives of IMs, are not at all concerned about the welfare, safety, or future of IMs. Any words of support or ``crocodile tears`` about IM`s suffering are intended to score points against India]

Do not make the mistake that IMs have ever looked for sympathy from Pakistan. However, if the occasion arises (on issues of human rights) and sympathy is expressed, I see it as a perfectly civilised thing to do.

[I did not mean to come across as a condescending lecturer to IMs or anyone else. As I noted in my response to item 2 above, there is no need for IMs to express any support for Pakistan. I have noticed that most Indians, including most Muslim Indians (and many of my own IM relatives), are passionately against Pakistan.]

Here you go again. I do not think going against Pakistan should be a yardstick to prove your loyalty. Does anyone ask IMs to go against the US, Germany, or even Bangladesh? Why does one have to state that one’s relatives are passionately against Pakistan? I am not and yet I am a patriotic Indian, although by no means blind to the flaws of my country. This makes me a greater nationalist than many with blinkers on.

PS:
[Farzana, kindness and sweetness have become second nature to me ever since my pleasant incarceration. :)]

Indeed. It is either the Stockholm Syndrome or a deep-seated masochistic tendency. However, I would request you not to promote this two-day respite as a special spa treatment – we just end up having too many takers with little steam…

[…is a talented young man with frequent displays of understanding and compassion. I don`t think that he is a lost cause]

Lost cause? Jaun milaa naahin ooka bisraee ka sawwal howat kahaan? Ghumayee-firayee ke to hi baat hui na ki do-chaar shabad tohar saath batiya di aur bas khusee-khusee kaisan bhi ooka jubaan se samajhdaari ka phool barsan laage. Maooka milat ho to tohar Chowkan ka Mother Teresa banva hi layee de. Humra aashirbaad hove tohar maathey par.

#175 by FarzanaVersey

Do you think illiteracy is restricted to only Muslims in India?

Then why is the Indian (read Hindu) government readily blamed for being partisan and not doing enough to uplift the Muslim community? Why is Kashmir cited as a case of rigged elections when what happens in UP and Bihar would put them to shame? Why is the Gudiya case cited as an example of making a spectacle of the Muslim community when even the Kanchi Shankaracharya was arrested and the entire Hindu community felt humiliated?

See a pattern here?

Many of these so-called secular schools want astrology in their curriculum, and regular text books often promote hatred and contain lies or exaggerations.

Which text books contain lies and exaggeration? Is there anything in any text book that contains anti-Muslim propaganda? Kindly be specific.

#175
Farzana Versey..............Excellent.

FarzanaVersey #175 {``Someone who makes the most incendiary statements and throws accusations around can hardly be counted on to speak the “truth”. And the stereotypes used are being responded to with even more stereotypes in your posts.``}

Farzana,
I have interacted with Gujju for almost two years now. Yes, at times, he does make wild accusations and draws some very prejudiced conclusions. I used to debate with him violently and then noticed that he enjoyed such altercations. Instead, my approach is to use logic as a shock absorber and positive suggestions to channel his anger into meaningful resolutions. I apologize for inadvertently adding to his stereotypes with more of my own. Basically, once you peel away the memorized ``Sword of Truth`` rhetoric, Gujju is a talented young man with frequent displays of understanding and compassion. I don`t think that he is a lost cause.

{``Please remember when you talk about IMs, you cannot paint them with the same brush as many hardcore Islamic states. Do you think illiteracy is restricted to only Muslims in India? Or ‘religious education’? Many of these so-called secular schools want astrology in their curriculum, and regular text books often promote hatred and contain lies or exaggerations.``}

Thank you for reminding me that, in addition to IMs, there are other people in India with equally challenging opportunities for improvement. Yes, I understand how damaging bigotry and hatred can become, especially when reinforced by the full force, weight, and power of the ruling majority. This is what minorities in Pakistan are facing at the hands of the ruling majority from Punjab. Chauvinists, racists, and bigots have been tinkering with books, truth, and facts to foster their perverted agendas. This perversion and deceit should always be exposed, regardless of who is inconvenienced, embarrassed, or even annoyed. Thanks.

{``Re. the “mad mullahs”, I have said this several times: In India they are not the mai-baap they would like to be. They do not have the courage to contest elections and when they do they are rejected in Muslim-dominated localities. There is more to the Sania Mirza episode -- please read my article on the subject. And even if you don’t, a handful of maulvis objecting to mini-skirts is no indication and certainly not enough to hold Muslims back. Do not confuse ‘modernization’ with Westernisation, which is accessible to a small segment among any community.
You are merely echoing the ‘cattle being herded’ analogy when you talk about IMs. It isn’t the people in villages or slums who sit and gupshup with these mullahs; it is leaders of political parties that do so, be they the secular ones or the BJP. It is they who make Muslims into vote-banks; Muslim parties have no locus standi.
The hold of the mullahs will not lessen because of THIS reason, and not because of the common people. ``}

Once again, I offer my apologies for trying to stereotype IMs. I agree with you that the hold of Mullahs over IMs is substantially less than what it is in Pakistan, BD, Afghanistan, or Saudi Arabia. You are also right about the creation of vote banks by wily politicians. The reason I singled out Imam Bukhari of Delhi`s Jama Masjid is based on his sexist and autocratic policies as enforced by his goons.

{``These are the most insulting comments.
1. IMs are less under the hold of the mullahs than some of these so-called educated people are under the thrall of the saffron parties.``}

You know? You are right about that. Yes, everything I have accused the Mullahs of doing can be applied with more moral force against the BJP/RSS/BHP/BD/SP/JS/SS saffron brigade. I guess I was being one-dimensional and just looking at what IMs could do to improve how they are perceived. Certainly, the majority population does not encourage this improvement by whitewashing the misdeeds of Mr. Modi and his cohorts in Gujarat.

{``2. The people making the accusation about IM loyalty have already shown us how their minds work; they claim Muslims are going around in the streets distributing sweets…for what? When their own people have been killed, their dargah demolished? Does this make sense? But it was not meant to…it was to tell us about green flags and green clothes. Such a limited mindset. And they even post selective excerpts from reports to mislead.``}

Farzana, I understand your point here, but please allow me to disagree. Why do IMs needlessly get involved in dead-end demonstrations and protests such as against the recent visit of President Bush, the war in Iraq, or the situation in Palestine. What is most damaging to IM`s interest is any sympathy expressed for Pakistan. This sympathy is not needed, not necessary, and certainly misplaced. People in Pakistan, other than Mohajir relatives of IMs, are not at all concerned about the welfare, safety, or future of IMs. Any words of support or ``crocodile tears`` about IM`s suffering are intended to score points against India and not to provide any consolation or affection for IMs. This is important and I emphasize this point during my discussions with IM relatives and friends.

{``3. You have every right to be kind and sweet to such individuals, but do not lecture IMs about their ‘loyalty’ to Pakistan. We have had enough of some of these devious characters casting aspersions on us. We live in India and we know what is happening. ``}

Farzana, kindness and sweetness have become second nature to me ever since my pleasant incarceration. :) I did not mean to come across as a condescending lecturer to IMs or anyone else. As I noted in my response to item 2 above, there is no need for IMs to express any support for Pakistan. I have noticed that most Indians, including most Muslim Indians (and many of my own IM relatives), are passionately against Pakistan. The scars of a bloody partition, four bitterly fought wars, millions killed, and tens of millions uprooted, are not going to diminish for a very long time. While Indians can and do accept the moderate thousand year old Indian brand of Islam, they have no stomach for the very different Sunni Wahabbi, blow-up in your face version.

{``I shall restrict my comments to India. Modi is still ruling in Gujarat. The big leaders of the BJP won wherever they contested. The Centre is made up of several parties, parties that have a regional base, where winning has a lot to do with caste and other parochial factors. They did not show the BJP a lesson for Gujarat. In India, every few years we topple the party at the Centre. ``}

Once again, I may have overstepped my understanding of Indian politics. Thank you for correcting my sweeping statement. You are right about Modi still being there and the BJP being quite successful. I was just hopeful that a democratic India, under the rule of law, would hold the murderers, arsonists, and rapists of 2002 accountable for their heinous crimes. I appreciate your informative responses. Thanks.

FV:
Please dont lie about Gujarats own citizen asking for the cases to be moved out of state. It was supreme court who went along with liars like Teesta & Zahira along with english newspaper report to move the cases. And everyone knows what happend. Poor Zahira got a year of Jail and Teesta is enjoying cup of tea financed by western interest.
Just like you dont like painting IM with same brush, you need to learn and stop painting Gujarati Hindus.
Also, still there has been no proof of tying Modi or his men to the riots in Baroda. By writing this article you are part of rumor mongers.

#169, 173 by Salim_Chauhan:

Someone who makes the most incendiary statements and throws accusations around can hardly be counted on to speak the “truth”. And the stereotypes used are being responded to with even more stereotypes in your posts.

Please remember when you talk about IMs, you cannot paint them with the same brush as many hardcore Islamic states. Do you think illiteracy is restricted to only Muslims in India? Or ‘religious education’? Many of these so-called secular schools want astrology in their curriculum, and regular text books often promote hatred and contain lies or exaggerations.

Female children are killed, women die in childbirth, there are dowry deaths – these are factors that are common to all communities of a certain economic and social strata.

[The mad mullahs, e.g. Imam Bukhari of the Delhi Jama Masjid and others, are probably doing more harm to Muslims than the outright murderders like Modi. The persecution of Sania Mirza for her tennis apparel is a telling indicator of their myopia and desire to hold Muslims back. Everyone knows that if Muslims become modernized, self-reliant, confident, educated, and prosperous their need and dependence on Mullahs will subside and may even vanish.]

Re. the “mad mullahs”, I have said this several times: In India they are not the mai-baap they would like to be. They do not have the courage to contest elections and when they do they are rejected in Muslim-dominated localities. There is more to the Sania Mirza episode -- please read my article on the subject. And even if you don’t, a handful of maulvis objecting to mini-skirts is no indication and certainly not enough to hold Muslims back. Do not confuse ‘modernization’ with Westernisation, which is accessible to a small segment among any community.

You are merely echoing the ‘cattle being herded’ analogy when you talk about IMs. It isn’t the people in villages or slums who sit and gupshup with these mullahs; it is leaders of political parties that do so, be they the secular ones or the BJP. It is they who make Muslims into vote-banks; Muslim parties have no locus standi.

The hold of the mullahs will not lessen because of THIS reason, and not because of the common people.

[Instead of questioning IM`s sincerity and loyalty, you should join the progressive ones in dismantling the cruel hold that Mullahs hold over these people.
I agree with you that wherever Muslims live, they should participate as loyal, progressive, industrious, moderate, and active citizens of their respective countries. It is rather stupid to live in India and be loyal to Pakistan just as it is silly to live in the US and pray for its downfall. I think that Muslims the world over are realizing the pernicious effects of extremism and intolerance.]

These are the most insulting comments.
1. IMs are less under the hold of the mullahs than some of these so-called educated people are under the thrall of the saffron parties.
2. The people making the accusation about IM loyalty have already shown us how their minds work; they claim Muslims are going around in the streets distributing sweets…for what? When their own people have been killed, their dargah demolished? Does this make sense? But it was not meant to…it was to tell us about green flags and green clothes. Such a limited mindset. And they even post selective excerpts from reports to mislead.
3. You have every right to be kind and sweet to such individuals, but do not lecture IMs about their ‘loyalty’ to Pakistan. We have had enough of some of these devious characters casting aspersions on us. We live in Indian and we know what is happening.

I do not wish to get into world affairs here, and am sure everyone needs to learn some tolerance not only because of the ‘pernicious effects’, but because civilised society expects such courtesy.

[In India, Muslims and the majority of Indians with a conscience punished the BJP for Modi`s actions by throwing the thugs out of power in Delhi. Is such justice possible in Pakistan?]

I shall restrict my comments to India. Modi is still ruling in Gujarat. The big leaders of the BJP won wherever they contested. The Centre is made up of several parties, parties that have a regional base, where winning has a lot to do with caste and other parochial factors. They did not show the BJP a lesson for Gujarat. In India, every few years we topple the party at the Centre.
- - -

#170 by jang:

[``why no one has picked on the Gujarat High Court`s orders for demolition``]

This was not raised by me…I was responding to it with, “since when has that state`s judiciary become non-partisan? The fact is that its own citizens ask the cases to be shifted from the court there.”

[it highly doubtful if the rioters were really interested in the dargah itself, or the community they claim to represent.]

I said in the article this was not about religion, but political.

For those who were were wondering whether the man set on fire had been torched by a Muslim mob or it was an accident, here is the full report in The Asian Age, May 8

1 held for burning man alive in Baroda
- By PTI

Baroda, May 7: One person was arrested in connection with the burning alive of Rafiq Vora in his car here on May 2 following violence sparked by the demolition of a dargah, the police said on Sunday.

Neelkanth Marathe, alias Garagewala, a resident of a society in Ajwa Road, was arrested late on Saturday night, the police said. He was arrested from near the site of the incident.

Neelkanth was absconding since the incident and was arrested after the police got information that he would be coming home, the police said. He has been remanded to four days’ police custody.

Rafiq’s brother, Mohammed Vora, had accused 14 persons of torching his brother and the car when he was returning from work.

Meanwhile, with the seven-hour curfew relaxation here passing off peacefully on Sunday, the authorities said the Army was likely to be withdrawn from the city from Tuesday.

The city remained totally peaceful on Sunday, police commissioner Deepak Swarup said. ``The Army will be withdrawn from the city by Tuesday, but a final decision will be taken tomorrow after monitoring developments,`` he said.

Mr Swarup said the curfew would be further relaxed for nine hours on Monday from 8 am to 5 pm in all six police station areas that were affected by violence following the demolition of a dargah by the civic authorities on May 1. The Army has already been withdrawn from Raopura and Karelibagh areas. Six people were killed and over 60 injured in police firing and clashes last week.

During the curfew relaxation, many shops remained opened despite it being a Sunday. Bhavik Rawal, a shopowner in Dandiya Bazaar, said he had opened his establishment after six days. ``We lost business worth thousands of rupees due to the disturbances,`` he said.

Zeena #172, {``Yes, you are 100% right. Muslims should be faithful to their own countries.Exclusively Indian Muslims. Even if Hindus do their genocide by massacre and even if Hindus demolish their religious places.............Yes, they shouldn`t say a word of disrespect even at the murder of their own relatives, even at the destruction of their religious shrines.............
...
Just think about it what you said..........just put yourself in the shoes of same Muslims suffered at the hands of Modi.......and guess what would be your reaction``}

Zeena,
I am being rational. People like Modi and others feed off the backward behavior of Muslims and their illogical support for a nation that couldn`t care less about them. Indian Muslims, just like Indian Christians, Indian Sikhs, and Indian Hindus depend on the peace and prosperity of India for their own well-being. Murderers, even state-sponsored ones as in Modi`s Gujarat, should not be allowed to hold any people back or to steal their citizenship from them. Just because the Pakistani military is bombing and killing Pathans and Baluchis and destroying their homes and schools doesn`t mean that the Government is right. In India, Muslims and the majority of Indians with a conscience punished the BJP for Modi`s actions by throwing the thugs out of power in Delhi. Is such justice possible in Pakistan?

Re:-#169
Salim sahib

Yes, you are 100% right. Muslims should be faithful to their own countries.Exclusively Indian Muslims. Even if Hindus do their genocide by massacre and even if Hindus demolish their religious places.............Yes, they shouldn`t say a word of disrespect even at the murder of their own relatives, even at the destruction of their religious shrines.............

Yes, Salim you are absolutely right..............couldn`t agree more....

Just think about it what you said..........just put yourself in the shoes of same Muslims suffered at the hands of Modi.......and guess what would be your reaction............

Yes, Indian007 is right......This Indian007 who celebrated the tragedy of Pakistani earthquake..........who is the worst abuser in the history of chowk..............he is right......excellent........

Ref reva315 #167

[And Harimau, one has to grow up somewhere. Bombay was as good a place as any.]

Oh yes. You used to have admissions in Maharashtra based on merit. My friend sent in his application for engineering college and on the day the results came in, he just looked up what college he was assigned to. Here in Tamil Nadu, the quotas for the Brain-Dead are officially 69%, exceeding the 50% recommended by even the Mandal Commission. Not only that, the Forward Caste members who manage to get past this gate would then be assigned to private engineering and medical colleges so that they would drop out because they couldn`t afford the tuition.

But having enjoyed the benefits of a merit-based system, you are recommending quotas for the rest of the world.

[In an ideal situation, you would not even be asked which community you came from.]

In an ideal situation, a Hidu would not have to call himself Ahmed or Hamid, as it happens in Pakistan. Why don`t you preach to the Pakis and the Saudis about what the ideal world should be like?

[In a country where the majority community cannot see its way to being generous and large-hearted, instead invent ways to keep minorities cowed down and poor, one cannot even begin to speak of one nation, indivisible.]

Being generous and large-hearted has led us to the current state where we are behind South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, Thailand, etc. Staying the current course will give us the pride of place behind Togo or Vanuatu. All minorities should learn to pull their weight instead of asking for subsidies for the Hajj (exactly how many countries in the world offer a Hajj subsidy?) or State support for dead-end professions such as weaving using handlooms, making replicas of the Taj Mahal or diving into wells for the amusement of the public.

Ferzana
``why no one has picked on the Gujarat High Court`s orders for demolition``
the question you raised was that of legality. so its up to you to show what was illegal about guj high court decision ordering demolitions. if may be partial, but i doubt it has much leeway to order ``illegal`` demolitions..can you shed some light on why its illegal? i suspect its easier to argue that the demolition was communal or soemething (but VHP made sure to remove some temples before to counter this). in fact if the court considers aspects other than law, its stepping out of its role, and indulging in political activism.

the best way to address this would have been for dargah-lovers to get a protest movement of all parties together .. involve hindus as well, after all they were major patrons to the pir. you try your best, and if it fails, you accept defeat gracefully and go on with life. there are bigger fish to fry. it highly doubtful if the rioters were really interested in the dargah itself, or the community they claim to represent.

Indian007 #168, {``Is it the majority`s fault that the 160 million strong minority chooses to herd its female members in cattle like sheds , depriving them of education ,never letting them out of the house and making them only fit for child bearing duties ? Or that this particular minority would rather enrol its little boys in urdu medium schools madrassahs where they learn the quran by rot while the majority send their kids to secular school where they get an actual education equipping them for the realities of the modern world ? ``}

Gujju,
There is much truth in what you have stated. While I am all for the protection of the lives and property of all people - minorities, majorities, and in-between, I am also for their advancement. The mad mullahs, e.g. Imam Bukhari of the Delhi Jama Masjid and others, are probably doing more harm to Muslims than the outright murderders like Modi. The persecution of Sania Mirza for her tennis apparel is a telling indicator of their myopia and desire to hold Muslims back. Everyone knows that if Muslims become modernized, self-reliant, confident, educated, and prosperous their need and dependence on Mullahs will subside and may even vanish. Instead of questioning IM`s sincerity and loyalty, you should join the progressive ones in dismantling the cruel hold that Mullahs hold over these people.

I agree with you that wherever Muslims live, they should participate as loyal, progressive, industrious, moderate, and active citizens of their respective countries. It is rather stupid to live in India and be loyal to Pakistan just as it is silly to live in the US and pray for its downfall. I think that Muslims the world over are realizing the pernicious effects of extremism and intolerance.

Revathy Gopal : ``In a country where the majority community cannot see its way to being generous and large-hearted, instead invent ways to keep minorities cowed down and poor, one cannot even begin to speak of one nation, indivisible.``

So you realise what an absolute idiot you are ?

Is it the majority`s fault that the 160 million strong minority chooses to herd its female members in cattle like sheds , depriving them of education ,never letting them out of the house and making them only fit for child bearing duties ? Or that this particular minority would rather enrol its little boys in urdu medium schools madrassahs where they learn the quran by rot while the majority send their kids to secular school where they get an actual education equipping them for the realities of the modern world ?

And what about the other much smaller minorities ? The 20 million strong Sikhs , 25 million strong Christians and 5 million strong Jains ? What about the 1 lakh strong parsis ? Are they being `cowed down and kept poor` by the majority as well ?

If not , why not ? Perhaps because they consider themselves to be citizens of India and believe in getting an education and working hard instead of wet dreaming about the whole world some day bowing down to the might of some dude called allah and accepting allah`s chamcha muhammad as some prophet , and closer home , about kufr hindustan becoming a part of `Greater Pakistan` , and so on ?

As I said , you are an idiot. And also dishonest , biased and stupid enough to believe you are being `sophisticated` by being so. You are not `secular` , you are just a sympathiser of Islamic fundamentalism. And I expect no better from leftists like you. This is just another evidence of both a nation and global alliance of Leftist Extremists and Islamic Fascists.

And why should the majority be generous and large-hearted to this particular minority ? We all know what happens whenever and wherever suddenly this particular minority becomes a majority and the majority becomes a minority......go ask the folks living in various refugee camps in Delhi and Jammu.....

No, it wasn`t quotas I meant. There have to be other ways to ensure free enrollment of all communities within the forces or into government jobs. In an ideal situation, you would not even be asked which community you came from.Just to say one is Indian would be, should be enough. But we are far from living in an ideal state aren`t we, my brothers?
In a country where the majority community cannot see its way to being generous and large-hearted, instead invent ways to keep minorities cowed down and poor, one cannot even begin to speak of one nation, indivisible.
And Harimau, one has to grow up somewhere. Bombay was as good a place as any.

FV, with her Islamist bent, won`t post this...

BMC reminded of illegal shrines

MUMBAI: At a time when the apex court has ordered a stay on demolitions of shrines in Gujarat which encroach on public land, the Janhit Manch in Mumbai has written to the BMC commissioner informing him about the re-emergence of at least 600 illegal shrines on the city streets.

The letter comes in the wake of a recent note by civic ward officers which also said encroachments continue to mushroom due to political interference and lack of administrative support.

Three years ago, the Bombay high court had ordered the demolition of all illegal temples, masjids, crosses, Buddhist vihars and other religious shrines on the city’s roads.

In 2001, the Janhit Manch filed a PIL, pointing out that there were at least 5,000 such illegal structures on the streets of Mumbai.

Acting on a court order, the BMC then carried out a sustained campaign and demolished 1,100 such shrines between August and September 2003.

``The peaceful manner in which it was carried out was a testimony to Mumbai’s secular credentials,`` said Bhagwandas Raiyani, who filed the original PIL.

But soon the momentum wore off and the issue was forgotten. Now activists involved with the Manch say that many of the shrines, which were demolished, have made a comeback.

``The PIL has not been disposed off and a few months ago we filed a notice of motion to restart the hearing. Since the campaign, at least 600 shrines have come back and we want the BMC to demolish these as well as the balance,`` said Raiyani.

Civic sources said local ward officers could be held responsible for the re-emergence of such structures in their areas although many of them had recently informed the BMC chief that the availability of men, material and machinery was far from sufficient.
They have also cited constant pressure from politicians against demolitions in a note to the commissioner. ``If a officer does not yield to pressure from a politician, he faces harassment.

The earlier drive ordered by the court had come after two separate petitions, including Raiyani`s, was filed.

The other one was filed by activist Edwin Britto, who had approached the courts against an illegal temple and a madarasa at Khar village. ``While the BMC demolished the temple, the madrasa is now a shopping centre.

#154: FV aunty ji, I am trying to evoke the reverance from within for your lilty words on chowk, just like many of your unsuccessful self-immolating fans ala Salim_chauhan, DW and Zeena. Trust me on this, I am indeed trying very hard.

Now, having read the responses of many of the interactors here, including Gujju`s take on ``intentions and actions``, I am nowhere nearer to clarity of understanding on this Modi, his men and the 250 yr old stump in the middle of the road.

Perhaps your question,``I wish to know how a 200-year-old dargah qualifies as being ‘illegal’. After a couple of centuries it is suddenly seen as an ‘encroachment’``, requires not inputs from mere mortals like chowk folk, but actually some planning commission that seeks to demolish it for other reasons...could it be making a paved road?

I went to vadodhara in 1999, when I had first joined an Indian Bank in the US to learn about the roots of the legal entity which I signed on to join for 4 years. the bank with it`s humble beginnings in Vadodhara, now was in 12 countries and climing rapidly among the league tables in every financial services category. It brought atm`s to farmers, it employed over 15000 people and sometimes it financed schools for local workers in remote parts of Gujarat through its NGO arm. Over the course of next few years, we saw re-zonings and eminent domain coming into play as project finance activity took rapid hold of the Indian economy. Hindus were also affected by this. You see, if you have gone to rural India you know that these silly hindus will start worshipping trees, rocks..practially anything they feel that has a connection to god. And guess what, the tree came down, the rock was removed, the mandir was relocated etc etc..

a country like India is at a cross roads of destiny. It can cater to the whims of religon, forgetting spirituality and lose its rightful place in this fast moving world or it can get over stupid shit like worrying about an impediment to growth like this shrine of a saint that died 200 yrs ago and provide a thoroughfare for all the people..not just the adhrerents of this saint.

I also do not understand why the parallel between modernity and killing that you are drawing here? Could you please explain....


BTW/My 143 was more Mad magazine than the New Yorker.

As I am not a writer, i would love for someone to come up with an article on the following topic.,`` why do some people make car parts, while others can only blow them up`` Thanks in advance.

Highly Respected Dear Madam Editor-In-Chief ,

``Although he was not on duty so it cannot be said that Muslims killed a brave soldier. He was an innocent person who became a victim of mob violence.``

Interesting perspective. Was the `mob` muslim by any chance ? You know - full of ugly bearded skull capped men of all ages , who with every stab at the unfortunate Indian soldier cried `Allahu Akbar` ? `Pakistan Zindabad` , `Maaro kafeer kutte ko`, perhaps ? Maybe certain burkha wearing ladies , young and old , assisted their men in the task by throwing stones from the houses across the street , aiming for the skull of that Indian Army soldier , and egging them on , chodna mat kafeer ko ? Inshallah , must have been such a warm and fuzzy sight , good muslim women marching side by side with good muslim men in the elimination of the kafeer - who as a bonus , also turned out to be an Indian Army vermin !! (No doubt that was the gift of the good muslim brothers and sisters of Vadodara to their beloved Kashmiri freedom fighter !! Allhamdulillah !!) That should disprove the canard that the Western crusaders spread - about the lack of emancipation of women in Islam......How dare they !! Dont they know Islam is the only PERFECT religion in the world ? And every living person on this planet will eventually submit to Islam , accept Muhammad (PBUH) as their Prophet and bow to Allah the Merciful , and no power on earth can stop that !!!

``No one is rejoicing over the stabbing of the armyman.``

How do you know ? Are you in touch with his killers ? Did you participate in the killing ? Infact its probably festive time for the entire colony. Everybody is probably distributing sweets and blissfully exclaiming `Allahmdulilllah` !!! Crackers may have been burst !! Children wearing bright green colored clothed , flying cute little green colored flags , while their mothers watch admiringly !! After a great feast , they all get together and offer a namaaz , thanking allah the merciful for giving them an opportunity to help in serving the just and secular cause of the Kashmiri freedom struggle....and getting the world rid of a kafeer vermin , that too an Indian soldier , further clearing the deck for for Muhammad (PBUH) to rule the world and for India to become a part of `Greater Pakistan`


You are welcome to celebrate too. Buy beef from the neighborhood butcher shop and munch on it , imagining the beef to be parts of that dead Indian soldier`s dismembered body . Have fun !!

One realises that `action-reaction` theory is not restricted to disgusting politicians alone; everyone seems to be eager to join the bandwagon. This is the unfortunate part of contemporary democarcy in India today.

No one is rejoicing over the stabbing of the armyman, although he was not on duty so it cannot be said that Muslims killed a brave soldier. He was an innocent person who became a victim of mob violence.

Only a typically narrow and divisive mentality could produce an excerpt from a report to show only one such death.

For those who do not have the patience or the inclination...here is the rest of the SAME report. Incidentally, the headline states, ``Faces of tragedy: an Armyman trying to get daughters admitted to school; a young groom to be``

Similarly, the two Fatehpura residents, Imran Hussain Dhobi (25) and Mohammad Hayat Mansuri (22), were returning home from work when they caught police bullets in their heads near Champaner Darwaza, after they took refuge in neighbouring buildings.

?The boys were sitting down, when they stood up, the police suddenly fired and they got hit,? said Mansuri?s relative, Yasmin Sheikh.

While Imran used to work in a dry-cleaning shop owned by his family, Mansuri, a Sarsia Talav resident, was employed as a mattress-maker.

Imran had shifted to his new residence at Adania Pul after his Baranpura home was burnt during the post-Godhra riots.

Mohammed Ashfaq (23), who was injured early this morning, died at SSG Hospital later in the day. He was the youngest of three brothers and sisters, and worked as a salesman in a footwear shop in Alkapuri.

Ashfaque, the son of a rickshaw-driver, had just got engaged to be married on Sunday. Friends of this Wadi Moti Vhorwad resident say he had come out of his house to watch the stone-pelting and insist he was killed in police firing.

However, the post-mortem report said Ashfaq sustained injuries during stone pelting and died of haemorrhage. His bother Alif alleged that his body was recovered after three hours by his friends who went out in the night. ?The police attempted to hide the body after shooting him,? alleged Alif.

- - -

Re. why no one has picked on the Gujarat High Court`s orders for demolition, since when has that state`s judiciary become non-partisan? The fact is that its own citizens ask the cases to be shifted from the court there.

By the way Dear Madam Editor-In-Chief , do allow me to express my deepest and heartiest congratulations to the brave and noble muslims of Vadodara- men, women and children , entire colonies and ghettoes, for so courageously raising their voice against the demolition of the sacred 350 year old Dargah , where hindus and sikhs also offer their prayers , and safeguarding the interest of secularism in India - by stabbing to death that nasty Indian Army guy , Subedar Ramchandra Meena (35), belonging to the Patiala unit of the EME while he was on his way to his daughter`s school.

I am sure you would love to join them in the celebration !! What the brave freedom fighters of Kashmir could not do , what the kind and wonderful brothers of Pakistan Army across the border , could not do , the muslim men, women and children of Vadodara did. Together. They got rid of that vermin from the Indian Army. Stabbed him. Again and again and again. Till his intestines protruded out of his bowels. Till his eye balls were removes from its sockets. Till his skin was removed and flesh exposed. They stabbed him in the name of Allah the Merciful.

Allahy Akbar !! Allah is Great !!! Secularism is saved !!!

Shabhash O Muslim Brothers and Sisters of Vadodara , Shabhash !!

ps : I wonder if the good secular non-Modi supporting hindus joined the muslim brothers and sisters of Vadodara in the act of killing that Indian Army vermin, because as Madam Editor-In-Chief insists , the voice raised against Modi`s men and the opposition to the demolition of the Dargah was secular.

Revathy Gopal : ``Burning people alive has become a hallmark of the Hindu Right.``

Bet you feel very secular and sophisticated when you make statements like that. The Hindu Right is represented by not just the organisations like RSS , VHP and political parties like BJP, Shiv Sena and its leaders , but also those who vote for them , either directly or indirectly. At a conservative estimate , the Hindu Right is represented by atleast 350 million Indians. So basically going by your very intellectual statement , burning people alive has become a hallmark of the 350 million Indians.

I can understand , being a secular and sophisticated person , you are deeply anguished at the death of the muslim guy at the hands of those hindutwa goons , but how come you feel no pangs pf sorrow for the hindus killed by your mussalmans ?

Read this >>

---

http://in.news.yahoo.com/060502/48/63y75.html

An Armyman on his way to get his children admitted to school, a brother taking the short-cut home from a shop he had newly opened, a young man about to get married, two men returning from work: the victims of yesterday�s Vadodara riots over the dargah demolition, Hindu and Muslim, were ordinary citizens not even aware of the controversy.

Consider the case of Subedar Ramchandra Meena (35), belonging to the Patiala unit of the EME. Following his recent transfer to Bhusawal, he was on training at the EME school in Vadodara until April 29. And on Monday, at around 12.45 pm, while the dargah was being demolished on the Fatehpura-Champaner road, he and his nephew Manoj Meena were on their way to the Kendriya Vidyalaya in Harni to secure admission for his three daughters when they came up against a police blockade.

�We asked around for a shortcut to Harni and entered Yakutpura. First, our motorcycle was stoned from neighbouring buildings and then about a dozen men gheraoed us. They started beating my uncle and confined me inside Minara Masjid. I was rescued by some women from the neighbourhood. When I reached my uncle he was bleeding profusely, I took him to a nearby hospital on my motorcycle,� recalled Manoj Meena.

At the Swami Premdass Hospital, doctors told Manoj that his uncle was no more. A post-mortem report confirmed that Meena had died of stab wounds in his back and stomach.

Today, EME personnel, accompanied by Meena�s wife, daughters and his brother-in-law, came to pick up his body. �We are taking the body for cremation to our native village in Bhilwada, Rajasthan,� said his brother-in-law Bhanwarlal Meena.

Like Meena, Biren Shah (23), another one stabbed to death, had taken a shortcut to his Mandvi residence via Lal Akhara, while returning from his newly opened Waghodia Road shop. �He was attacked with a chopper on his neck and shoulder. His body was mutilated and left on the street,� said his brother Devang Shah.

Biren was cremated on Monday night. Shah�s relatives were asked to give a written representation to a five-member panel from the National Human Rights Commission (NHRC) which, tomorrow, will visit the families of those killed.

---

How come I see no statements from you about how stabbing people is the hallmark of the muslim people of India ?

You think Modi was behind the killing of that army man and the 23 year old kid ? Perhaps they were killed by hindutwa rascals disguised as muslims , so that they can damage the reputation of the sweet and innocent and secular mussalmans of India ? Or maybe they just stabbed themselves to death , clever hindutwa agents that they are - just like those malicious hindutwa women and children on that Godhra railway coach who mischievously burnt themseves alive and commited suicide . Dont you think ?

Ref reva315 #159

[......If all communities were fairly represented within the police force, there would be far fewer communal incidents....]

Ah yes; Quotas! The Ultimate Solution for All Problems.

Now that Arjun Singh has come up with Quotas for the Brain-Dead in IITs and IIMs, what we need is quotas for Muslims as the next step. Of course, that was never too far behind considering that Andhra had already instituted a 5% quota for Muslims (people with Alzheimer`s seem to have forgotten that under the Nizam the quota for Muslims in His Exalted Highness`s army was 100%; I suppose the justification would be that reducing the quota to 5% is actually an injustice to Muslims!) and the Supreme Court of India had asked the Government of India what its position on quotas for minorities was.

All we need is a South Indian who grew up in Bombay when the system there was based on merit now recommending quotas for all and sundry and right on cue she pops up on Chowk. But that was actually inevitable. The attitude of ``I got mine and let the devil take the hindmost`` evident in these people`s pronouncements is the same idea behind quotas.

So you blame Modi. Why don`t you blame the Gujarat High Court for ordering the demolitions in the first place?

Farzana, tough words, fighting words and a rigorous rational mind which unfortunately will not find an echo in any communal situation. Burning people alive has become a hallmark of the Hindu Right.
In a few weeks or months, we will hear public officials, even police commissioners come out with their whiny stories about being ordered to act in a particular way by the government, read Mr. Modi. There is no reason for the police to be partisan. If all communities were fairly represented within the police force, there would be far fewer communal incidents. Reform, stringent reform within the bureaucracy and the police and then perhaps the Army would not need to be called in to quell civilian riots.
Revathy Gopal.

FV`s comment on #124 by aisha_sarwari:

[I am convinced we`re at that stage in civilization where our advanced communication within (internally) replaces the old fashioned prayer.]

Uss din ka intezar karenge…

That time came and went with Al-Hallaj centuries ago. He had refused Hajj and said why would he want to visit Mecca when God was within him? As tradition goes, he had built a Kaaba around the corner from his house ...:-)

But yes, the door on enlightenment may yet become ajar.

Some indian communities want to move on...

http://sulekha.com/news/nhc.aspx?cid=450124

Over 800 encroachments removed from ancient Madurai city

Madurai, pti:

The demolition was carried out following a High Court order on February 3 and the demolished structures included 250 roadside temples.


The roads of this historic temple city, praised in ancient Tamil literature, have got back their original glory with civic officials pulling down more than 800 encroachments including 250 roadside temples, some of them century old.

The demolition of roadside temples was accomplished following a High Court order on February 3 last, to take effective steps to remove all encroachments on public roads.

Civic officials not only razed down temples but even roadside offices of political parties, one or two churches and a dargah.


Police had a tough time in removing the devotees who had squatted inside the temple and refused to move when the bulldozers and procline machines roared to the site.

The officials had to convince the people about the need to execute the High Court order. “We are demolishing all the places of worship, all the houses, flag posts, etc and we don’t discriminate,” the officials said.

Officials also deputed a special team of intelligence to carry out liaison work negotiating with unauthorised occupants and persuade them to vacate the building.

In the case of the temples, the idols and other articles were removed in advance by the persons concerned. While the ground work of police officials helped avert clashes in many places, in some they had to use force to remove the devotees as the talks failed.

Temples in many places had been constructed with the hidden agenda which varied. There were temples which fetched more than Rs two lakh a year to the trustees who celebrated annual festivals.

There were also temples in the bustling market area which helped the traders extend their sun shade on both sides of the temples. In some places people had extended their houses till the periphery of the temple.

However, the demolition of roadside temples and encroachments had been both appreciated and scorned.

Chockalingam, a senior politician said people understand now that public places should not be occupied. The broad roadsides would reduce the problem of parking on roadsides.

Janata Party President Subramanian Swamy said the government had definitely earned the wrath of the people, who were stranded on streets, after providing them legitimacy to live in.

K V R Subramanian, an auditor, suggested legal action be taken against corporation officials who had permitted the roadsides to be encroached.

Many people at the demolition site were sad that the places of worship had been pulled down. Those who had built a roof over their head and run small business and tea shops to eke out their living are now in the street.

All the same, they ask how did the Corporation give them power and water connection and allowed unauthorised roadside temples to come up in the first place? Some temples had been attached to the Hindu Religious and Charitable Endowment trust, and Corporation had been condemned for removing those temples, and now a legal battle is in the offing between the Corporation and the HR and CE Department.

Corporation officials, who had been aggressive in the initial stage of the ‘operation eviction’, have slowed down now after another High Court bench took a slightly different view on March 22 and said the court had not given any blanket powers to the Corporation to remove the encroachments with utter disregard to law. Justice D Murugesan told the officals to follow procedures before demolishing.

When you pray you are essentially talking to your soul. Why, then, let that private conversation become a tamasha?``

My sentiments exactly, In fact so repulsive has some people`s behavior been toward faith and its show, that I am convinced we`re at that stage in civilization where our advanced communication within (internally) replaces the old fashioned prayer.


ROFL.. nice dialogue there..

I thought only the ``Sunni Muslim women`` are not allowed inside mosques and are forced to be in that stage in civilization where they have no other choice but to communicate within.. very funny...

“Tum logon ki jaat hi aisi hai. Don`t blame you.”

This is the attitude. Herd everyone. But never heard everyone, have you?

#124 by aisha_sarwari:

[I am convinced we`re at that stage in civilization where our advanced communication within (internally) replaces the old fashioned prayer.]

Uss din ka intezar karenge…good to see you here…
- - -
#135 by HP:

[Guess I have not seen enough adversity in my life to seek help from some dead fakirs who mostly never even had decent clothes and food in their “living” life.]

While I agree with you about religion, being lost to the world (when genuine) is more than losing one’s shirt, so to speak! The Bhakti and Sufi poets are examples, and they did not expect to become rock stars of faith. They were just seeking the evanescent.

[Let see if you like the change to this Shair:

Masjid tau Banaa di shab bhar main iman ki hararat waloon nay
Mun apna purna paapi thaa barsoon main “sharabi” bun na sakaa.]

But don’t you think religion comes cheaper than a tequila shot?? (Never mind that the hangover is far, far worse.)
- - -
#142 by chaltahai:

Was there any sarcasm? If yes, then it was well-put. If not, then pardon me…yahaan rehkar ab paani bhi phoonkh-phoonkh ke peetey hai…

[we have FV and you DON`T``]

“Main pal do pal ka shaayar hoon…”, but then, “Rahe na rahe hum, mehka karenge…” I should hope.
- - -
#145 by Zeena

[Yes, sir I am thinking with my neurons and you are thinking with your hormones]

Purrfect. Haan!
- - -
And these words to end this post…

“Because I do it with one small ship, I am called a terrorist. You do it with a whole fleet and are called an emperor.” -- A pirate, from St. Augustine`s ‘City of God’

koee pathar sey na maaray mairay deewaanay ko..
nuclear ka zamaana hai..bumb sey ura do saalay ko..

The dargah was another testimonial to check whether US-India deal and material is of use or not..

farzana
i suppose situation is pretty similar in northern cities in england, but without the violence you have in gujarat, they have coined a new word for it, instead of apartheid its called parrallel communities.

#150


wiseguyin sahib

Aren`t you embarrassed of what Modi did?
Aren`t you ashamed of belonging to same country and caste as Modi is?
Aren`t you remorseful for the actions of Modi?
Aren`t you ready to apologize to all Muslims in general and Indian Muslim in particular for the massacre and for the demolition of their heritages?

I am embarrassed, ashamed, remorseful for belonging to the same human genera as Modi is and I apologize to all Muslims in general and Indian Muslims in particular for the atrosities at the hands of Modi and his inhumane men.......................

Well, your balloon is already flat ........how much more air you need for the leaking balloon?
Ain`t gonna work.......

Yes, I am/was/will be right for not accepting your false propaganda against Pakistan and Muslims. There is no difference between Modi and you. You are supporting Modi`s actions on this board and Modi is busy in practicing his devlish acts to spread more and more hate in a so called secular democracy.............Modi has already punctured your true democracy`s balloon..........now shout out loud.........

My suggestion for you is to convert out of Hinduism, this is the best you can do to avoid that embarrassement. Why will I convert out of Islam? When my great grandmother who was Hindu Brahmin converted in to Islam pre partition with out any force or pressure.

And this is just one example out of million Hindus who got converted in to Islam with out any pressure or force. If, they were pressurised then, then my question is why they didn`t convert back in to Hinduism later after the Moghal fall ??

Again, I understand your humiliation and torture at the hands of Muslim rulers for the centuries, and your oppression was not justifiable, if you think centuries of your slavery and it`s stigma won`t be resolved in one century, then we have to wait for many centuries to see your rehabilitation and recovery towards healthy life...........Just a well wisher.
I understand your wounds are way too , deep to be cured instantly just by one application of ointment............it will take centuries for the healing processs for full or partial recovery.........

Again , even then if you insist we Pakistanis did something wrong, today with ocean of tears I deeply apologize to you for the torture we did on you for centuries. I cannot do that on behalf of those who are already dead or on behalf of other Muslims. Well, atlas I can do that on my own behalf just to make your mind at little ease to make you sleep well as a tranquilizer. Take care.

Re: # 151

Zeena - ur rantings are too amusing for me to comment on all of them
Just one I would like to comment on, though.

> I apologize to all Muslims in general and Indian Muslims in particular for the atrosities ...
Don`t apoplogize. Do something about it. Take away at least one muslim from the free
world - onto an islamic place where you thing they will be safer. Like pakistan.
You will do a favor to one of your own species. You will do us a favour. This is a deal where
everyone wins. wotsayyou ....

May be you can start with yourself :)

But no. Like parasites, you will remain. Shameless and continue .....

Re: #148
Wiseguyin sahib

I am not sure if your post is relevant or irrelevant to the topic at hand. I would love to answer you but prior to that, I apologize to Farzana for any tangentiality from my side.

Arright, What do you think I will believe in this yellow journalism by some unknown person for a false propaganda , pure and simple with out any direction?

No, Never, this news is purely to mislead the people to create havoc and for the cheap thrills of yellow journalism.

I never heard/saw any incidence of such sort. so, save your false article for your self, not for me. I will never be convinced. Thanks.

PS:- But even then if you insist we Pakistanis did something wrong,today with ocean of tears I deeply apologize to you for the torture we did on you for centuries. I can not do that on behalf of those who are already dead or on behalf of other Muslims. Well, atleast I can do that on my own behalf just to make your mind at little ease to make you sleep well as a tranquilizer. Take care.

Re: # 149

> ...I will never be convinced...

This was the reason why i did not immediately burst your balloon .... but then I thought
that if I let it pass, you might think that you were right. [notice the gap in my reply and urs]

> I deeply apologize to you for the torture we did on you for centuries ....
On the contrary.
I am least interested in any apologies from you. I just wanted to show you the face of ur
cult. Thats all. As for what your ancestors did - I have good respect for them. They were
our first line of defence and they must have given a good fight to the invaders - before
finally succumbing. Not many have withstood the horrible one and his band of fanatics. I
do have respect for the rajputs and budhdhists of your area.

The best you can do, if you really are for HUMANITY to prevail, is to convert out of Islam.

What ?? You don`t want to live in Italy ?

Ok, in case you can`t do that for whatever reasons - try not to sire more of your species.
That would be your service to humanity.

#146
wisegyin sahib

I am not the topic of the article, Modi is .......haan

#140, #143
wiseguyin sahib

{{{Were it not for Zeena ... this place would be so drab}}

1:-Yes, you should be thankful to your stars that my rainbow presence to this place has made this place pleasant......

And also you should be thankful to your beloved leader Modi , were it not for Modi.........India would be so drab................Modi is painting India with true red color of innocent people`s fresh blood mixed with demolished material from demolished religious shrines to make India more and more drab...............now, India is totally RED and you know what red means in Modi`s context? of course not sexy..........................For good, nice and wise people like you, Modi is Hero...........of course he is...........b/c he is jihadi vampire leading India to TALIBANIZATION................

{{{she is hallucinating...
within her species, they call it thinking }}}

2:- Yes, sir I am thinking with my neurons and you are thinking with your hormones.....and a wise guy like you should know the difference between neuronal thought process and hormonal thought process...........
It looks like you are having some difficulty in distinguishing between these two thought processes..........Well, to make life easier for a wise guy like you........let me tell you a clear difference.........
You and your vampire hero, Modi has hormonal thought process and people like me who stand up only and only for one slogan,``We will live for HUMANITY, we will die for HUMANITY.`` have neuronal thought process which leads them for the betterment of the humans , while Modi`s and your`s hormonal thought process lead you for the destruction of the innocent humans............
And, do you know what that thought process is called? that is called insanity in layman`s terms............and insanity emerges from blocked thought process without clarity of mind........and that is why wise people like you and Modi end up with thoughtlessness , apathy and remorselessness to kill more and more people and to demolish more and more religious shrines....................

My hormones give me strength and my neurons give me wishful thinking. My neurons rule my mind. Modi`s and your`s hormones rule your mind.................Good job..........

#3:-You tell me exactly how many Hindus were butchered by my culture? You tell me exactly how many religious shrines were demolished by my culture?
If you read post #127 by pmishra2 , who clearly is in delusional phase with false illusions, you may be able to comprehend my post # 138......................
What exactly is