Theory and the Facts of Life

Re: # 65, kalchakra:
What can Gill say?
But I tell you he is not remotely the most brainwashed Islamist!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Freethinker

Please be patient with Kamath. Your frustration is understandable, but there appears to frustration on all sides.

Gill Sahib, have you ever tried to look at Islam and its theory from the point of view of a reasonably skeptical non Muslim?

kamath: #63.

You`ve completely misread the raison d`etre of my essay, The theory part of my essay pertains to a formulation which may not be practical or practically confirmed. It is mere formulation. Read the following extract from the essay.

``The essence of Islam has been reduced to mere “theory” in the Muslim world; it is seldom practiced apart from the routine ritualistic “namaz” and “roza”. According to this theory, the Islamic way of life is the best in the world. Unfortunately, it doesn’t actually exist in practice. What exists is the Muslim way of life – the way the Muslims live. The example of corruption that I have given above is by and large the way the Muslims live. Honesty is an Islamic value but is seldom practiced in the Muslim world.``

What do you make of it? Did you read my essay carefully or did you rush to write your pre-conceived interact without understanding what I was writing about?

Please read the essay again and if you still have issues or do not understand any part of it, let me know I`ll explain it.

You and guys like you are so pre-possessed by pre-conceived and ill-founded notions that you don`t care to read with open minds and instead see the illusions of your ill-founded ideas where they don`t exist.

Mohammad Gill

Mohammad:
Your statement, ``..The western way of life is close to the theoretical Islamic way of life although we rush to condemn it...`` is badly worded and silly. Can any religion and its practices be viewed with the precision of physics or mathematics? What a silly idea is this `theoratical Islam`. When did so called ``theoratical Islam`` ever solve completely so many problems of Islamic society? Please tell me! If one were to study its history, Islam gave a code of conduct to its followers like -Christianity, Hinduism or Buddhism, Confucianism etc.

WereIslamic societies totally free of corruption, stealing, killing, intolerance, infidelity, torture, murder etc. ? Same thing is true of other societies too. Didn Islam work?

If this `theoratical Islam` were so good and panacea for the ills of the society, why is it in 1400 years of its existance, there were no little and Islamic utopia and paradises?.

Here you are prescribing a medicine to somebody whereas it is not a remedy at all.

I think this post is of yours is plain rediculous and perhaps the result of personal disillusionment in life around you. A smart man like yourself can do better than that.

Kamath

Dear Naqshbandi Sahib:

You are missing the whole point. Imam Abu Hanifa, with all due respect, was a great man but the world has changed a very great deal since his time, more than a thousand years. His version of fiqh needs updating and why should there be any hesitation to do so? Blind faith in humans, even the great ones, is dangerous and a sign of intellectual retrogression.

Be well,

Mohammad Gill

Re: # 47

Gill sahib,

Imam Abu Hanifa was a man and a great man. A wali in fact by consensus. Anyway, don`t you see the beauty of the Hanafi school on this issue is precisely that it allows Muslims to act fully in a society which is run on usury/interest economics without the fear of committing sin

Re: # 59, kalihawa:
But he has added two statements without correcting his mistake!!!! freethinker probably does want to islamize the West!!
Bush would be the answer to that.

Re: # 55

Perhaps he wanted to say ``Let us westernize Islam......``

Sattar2:

I think we are not on the same page.

You are talking about fine details and future projections and my concern is with general principles. Interest on loans is a continuously debated issue in the Muslim world because of religious injunctions and implications. I quoted the examples of home mortgage and car loans only to illustrate that the loans and the associated interest is not always exploitive. I bought the car on loan instantly; I wouldn’t have been able to buy it with cash payment for many, many years. The same goes for buying a house. I gave these examples to suggest that buying on loan can be practically useful frequently. If you have plenty of money, you can buy with cash payment.

My point is that we should not continue considering “loans with interest” as something fundamentally wrong because of religious injunctions.

Affordability is largely a relative term. I could afford to buy my first house only for $40,000 although I wished I could afford to buy a $60,000 house. I am not talking about loan terms, either; 30 years, 40, or 50 years, etc. Those who do not have the resources to buy a house, so be it. They have to do without it or rent it or whatever.

If the system is flexible and floating, adjustments would be made according to prevailing conditions. I had written in one of my interacts that “things do not stay the same” and that is the reason that the system should change accordingly.

We should not remain stuck with a system that was good 1500 years back and is outdated now.

Mohammad Gill

freethinker #56

Affordability is not as straight forward a concept as you make it out to be. A particular 30-year mortgage loan may not be affordable for a person. But the same mortgage loan spread out over 50 years becomes affordable. This will have an impact on propping up home prices.

Furthermore, there were economic forces and policies that strengthened, and at times inflated, the state of US economy. I don’t think one can justifiably overlook the role of WWII, or the US economic policy of abandoning gold standards, in this regard. Your social security checks are safe alright. But beyond the year 2040, government is forecasting being able to meet only 74% of its social security obligations. Medicare trustfund is expected to go bankrupt by the year ~2018. Our national debt is reaching $10 trillion. Our trade deficit keeps setting new records …

Role of these factors in price appreciation of homes in recent history cannot be overlooked. Conversely stated, if US had managed its debt alright, and not gone overboard with printing paper money, and not bungled up social security and medicare funds, and not allowed on-going trade deficits, actual home appreciation may very well have been substantially less than what you experienced. Overlooking these factors does not do justice to the issue at hand. Your generation saw very differnt times. Economic reality for my generation and that of my kids is vastly different than yours. This ``one size fits all`` approach remains far less than adequate in my view.

Look, I am not debating the overall point you are making … that ummah needs to stop living in 7th century Arabia. There are good things about the US system … wherein a common man can function and thrive honestly. Such systems have resulted in prosperity for individuals, as well as the business communities. I am in disagreement with the example of house appreciation you`ve cited to make your point. I am also at odds with some of your underlying assumptions regarding overall wellness of the financial system seen here in the US. You seem to have overlooked quite a bit, which when taken into account paints a picture that is less rosy and somewhat more sobering.

sattar2 and others:

The prices of the houses will inflate to a certain point up to which people can afford to buy them. After that, the prices will decreas. It is simple ``supply and demand.``

Some of the points in your discussion are just conjectures. The mortgage system is not new nor recent. It continues to work because it is flexible and functional. It is not frozen or static.

The most important point that I tried to make was for the Muslim world to realize that it needs to change and modernize. If in principle majority of the Muslims recognize that they are stuck in the past and the old system is no longer functional we will be able to develop a workable system (whether it is wholly western or a blend of the west and our own).

If, on the other hand, we continue to believe that the 1500 years old system to which we are clinging, is divine, given by God and hence unchangeable, there is only one direction in which we can go - backwards.

So, from my viewpoint, the first important thing is to start believing that a change is needed and we can make that happen. And that it is not blasphemous to change.

Good things will follow then.

Mohammad Gill

freethinker:
I am entering this late. But interesting read of your life. Also, so true of the relative conditions that prevail in the West versus our native lands!! We are generally all talk and little action!!!!

I agree with all your satements except half of the sentence quoted below:
``We should Islamize the western system of governance and root out the corruption. ``
Of course, I am talking about the first half!!!!!!!!!!

There is a general need of revision of religions in our native lands. The fact that we are frozen in our glorious (????) past and delude ourselves in changing the rest of the world to the despicable confusion is simply ridiculous.

Interesting topic – one with many facets. Some rambling thoughts in a longish reply …

General comments

Aspects of US financial markets have various pros and cons. Criticism of financial markets does not necessarily mean that financial policies are ill-conceived. On the other hand, the fact that this criticism is leveled by unwashed ummah does not make the criticism invalid either. Truth lies somewhere between these extreme viewpoints … and very importantly … it has many facets. Each facet needs to be carefully viewed, analyzed, and understood before drawing meaningful conclusions.

Gill Sahib, in my view you may have painted with too wide a brush and drawn conclusions that may border on being overly simplistic. You were able to borrow money to buy a house and your kids borrowed college-money. And all this money is on its way to being paid off. Good for you and your kids. But this issue is too complex to be understood on basis of a couple of data points.

Factors leading to US economic success

I am tempted to guess that some of the credit for US economic success may very well be traced back to the vision of its founding fathers. These seemed to be extremely brave men with a clear, in-depth vision of the future. The tone adopted in the Declaration of Independence, as well as the US constitution, speaks volumes regarding their perception, integrity, and boldness.

In more recent history, it seems that another big push for US economic success came in the post World War II era. With most of the industrialized world suffering from consequences of war, US was one of the few industrialized nations producing. Rebuilding war-ravaged countries was a humungous task to which US nation and industry rose … while benefiting tremendously from it, in financial terms.

Shift in attitudes, economy, and debt situation

Somewhere along the way, in the post WW II era, things changed. We are fast becoming a nation living and thriving on debt, which is soon expected to put a damper on future growth of US economy. It seems congress is about to raise the national debt ceiling to $10 trillion. This debt used to be ~$1 trillion merely 25 years ago. This growth of ~$ 9 trillion in debt for approx. 300 million people, roughly boils down to $30k per person. How much for a family of 6? You do the math. Imagine having to pay back this debt in your lifetime. That may very well change your own personal future financial outlook.

Here’s what I once wrote on this issue …

Click [US Economic Outlook]

Inflation of home prices

Without getting into religious aspects of interest (“usury” or “time value of money” or whatever …) a few observations are worth making: borrowing money for one to sustain one’s life style can quickly spiral out of control for a nation. In this case, availability of easy loans can go a long way in (artificially?) propping up home prices. Soon a 30-year mortgage will become a thing of the past. Financial institutions are starting to come out with 40- and even 50-year mortgages. People strapped for cash, who can’t afford to pay exorbitant home prices, seem to have fewer choices than to go for longer mortgage plans. As more people go for 40-, 50-year mortgages, it will keep home prices inflated, and consequently others will have little choice but to follow suit.

Such trends can go a long way in concentrating wealth in the hands of a few, while an increasing number of people are working longer to pay off home loans. Now, I am not asking that government should start meddling with financial markets, telling lending institutions who to lend money to, in what amounts, and on what terms etc. What I am suggesting that this trend will have negative consequences that will become clear with time. This game is far from being over.

Some conclusions

The point I am trying to make is that … perhaps, if it weren’t for ever-increasing US debt, at a personal level for the population, as well as at government level, and government`s loose economic policies, price appreciation on the house you experienced may not have transpired. Financial success you have enjoyed very well may be a consequence of wider economic trends, which unfortunately may also be transient in nature. Just how far this system can keep going is anybody’s guess. But it probably cannot continue for too long, which is a thought that I am afraid may be closer to truth than not. Of course, somebody has to pay this tab. If not your generation, it will be the following generation. And that would be your kids and mine.

This article sheds some light on the issue. Though it addresses the issue within the context of Iraq war, it does raise some valid points regarding US economic policies that are relevant to the discussion:

Click [Iranian Oil Bourse]

Ummah’s dilemma

Of course, ummah should either join the crowd, do something to fix the system they perceive as ailing, or shut up. If they refuse to deal in interest, and as a result are unable to buy a house, they should take solace knowing (believing?) that their reward rests with God Almighty. They should accept consequences of their choice. It is unfair of them to sit by the sidelines and then complain about the godless infidels manipulating money and not letting them buy a house.

General comments

Like anything in life in general, US financial system has its flaws and strengths. You are right in pointing out that strengths of this system should be adopted by other nations. However your opinion seems to be a tilted, a bit erroneously, in favor of praising the system, while overlooking deeper faults that may lie within.

Re: # 43
I agree with mr Dullahbhatti about mortgage and loan system benefitting the poor students.

Mr Gill, you have a very good article here and it seems your grasp of the situation impacting the Pakistani mindset is right on target. Question tobe answered is that how many progressive Pakistanis will listen to you.

Regards

-An East Punjabi

#51, Kulharee {``Naqshbandi Sahib, are there any other relaxations offered by the Hanfi school, e.g., consuming alcohol while living amongst non-Muslims?``}

Qutubuddin Bukbuk Sahib,
Finally an important and meaningful question from you. I am sure that any positive response from Naqshabandi Sahib will mean more converts to the relaxed version of Sunni Islam. I am going to buy all the Hanafi stock that I can get. :)

Re: # 45

Naqshbandi Sahib, are there any other relaxations offered by the Hanfi school, e.g., consuming alcohol while living amongst non-Muslims? Please let me know. Thanks.