Theory and the Facts of Life
Mohammad Gill May 7, 2006
#50 Posted by khurram on May 11, 2006 6:25:31 am
Re #49,
Because, for the author, Science is the new religion.
Because, for the author, Science is the new religion.
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#49 Posted by kalihawa on May 11, 2006 5:45:03 am
Why do we discuss religion in a column ``Science & Sciencibility”?
#48 Posted by majumdar on May 11, 2006 12:19:19 am
Dear Gill sahib,
(I have several credit cards but I use only one of them. I know I`m paying some 19 or 20 % interest on it if I don`t pay back the loan in time. No body forces me into taking the credit cards (no body has stopped me either); it was my free choice. If it were so hurtful I should have stopped using it long time back. )
Quite true. I will give you an example from another industry. I am quite overweight -partly from drinking Coke and Junk Foods (McD etc.). So are Coca Cola Co. or McDonald`s the villains. No sir. I was overweight even before these brands entered India - I was stuffing myself on samosas and jalebis.
Regards
(I have several credit cards but I use only one of them. I know I`m paying some 19 or 20 % interest on it if I don`t pay back the loan in time. No body forces me into taking the credit cards (no body has stopped me either); it was my free choice. If it were so hurtful I should have stopped using it long time back. )
Quite true. I will give you an example from another industry. I am quite overweight -partly from drinking Coke and Junk Foods (McD etc.). So are Coca Cola Co. or McDonald`s the villains. No sir. I was overweight even before these brands entered India - I was stuffing myself on samosas and jalebis.
Regards
#47 Posted by freethinker on May 10, 2006 10:01:51 am
Naqshbandi:
Thanks for your appreciation.
Hanafi law which is more than a thousand year old, don`t you think needs revision and updating? Why should the things remain static for a thousand years?
Imam Abu Hanifa was a learned man but a man after all. Do you think he had the foresight for providing law to the Muslim world for eternity? If we beliueve that fiqh needs updating, we can move ahead.
malik99:
I don`t really have any issue with what you wrote in your feedback excepting the plastic money. I have several credit cards but I use only one of them. I know I`m paying some 19 or 20 % interest on it if I don`t pay back the loan in time. No body forces me into taking the credit cards (no body has stopped me either); it was my free choice. If it were so hurtful I should have stopped using it long time back. In times of need, it was very helpful to borrow money even at the exorbitant rate of interest, for a short while.
There are no free lunches, as they say.
There shouldn`t be any compulsion or hesitation (religious or otherwise) on using the credit cards. Every responsible person should know when and how to use it. Those who don`t, learn the hard way. Many of the cheaters get caught too.
Mohammad Gill
Thanks for your appreciation.
Hanafi law which is more than a thousand year old, don`t you think needs revision and updating? Why should the things remain static for a thousand years?
Imam Abu Hanifa was a learned man but a man after all. Do you think he had the foresight for providing law to the Muslim world for eternity? If we beliueve that fiqh needs updating, we can move ahead.
malik99:
I don`t really have any issue with what you wrote in your feedback excepting the plastic money. I have several credit cards but I use only one of them. I know I`m paying some 19 or 20 % interest on it if I don`t pay back the loan in time. No body forces me into taking the credit cards (no body has stopped me either); it was my free choice. If it were so hurtful I should have stopped using it long time back. In times of need, it was very helpful to borrow money even at the exorbitant rate of interest, for a short while.
There are no free lunches, as they say.
There shouldn`t be any compulsion or hesitation (religious or otherwise) on using the credit cards. Every responsible person should know when and how to use it. Those who don`t, learn the hard way. Many of the cheaters get caught too.
Mohammad Gill
#46 Posted by malik99 on May 10, 2006 8:10:09 am
Author writes ``Paying ‘interest’ on the loan money used for purchasing the car, arguably contravened the Islamic theory of riba (usury) ``
Gill sahib, there is a slight mistake in this sentence. ``Interest`` is not the same as ``usury``. Interest is the time value of money. Usury is the ``excessive interest``. In any case, these are finer points. There is no doubt that the ``easy`` loans have raised the standard of living in west.
I read a book by a bangladeshi man, Muhammad Yunis, who pioneered ``micro-lending`` in Bangladesh and thus provided working capital to poor village people who otherwise would have not been able to start any business of their own. Now contrast that ``essential`` borrowing in Bangladesh with the gluttonous borrowing in US. Here, the trend is to take loans over your home equity to finance a better car. Or people paying 19% interest on their credit cards because they could not live without Christmas shopping. Now this is not a cost-free or a win-win transaction for everyone. Indeed, the lender will make money and the borrower will get his/her worth in terms of happiness over having a new car. But someone does pay. Who pays? Maybe we all pay when millions of borrowers default on their loans or go through foreclosures and the lending agencies raise the borrowing costs for everyone to recuperate their losses. Or perhaps we all pay when the US government increasingly borrows money from Chinese to finance our debt binge. Or perhaps we all pay when our high debt makes a dent on dollar`s value.
In essence, my point being that Islam does not ``ban`` lending / borrowing of money and allows for risk / time value to be accounted for. It calls for responsible lending and responsible borrowing. But since it bills itself as a religion for ``all times``, it is vigilant about any practices that would lead your generations into shackles of debt.
Gill sahib, there is a slight mistake in this sentence. ``Interest`` is not the same as ``usury``. Interest is the time value of money. Usury is the ``excessive interest``. In any case, these are finer points. There is no doubt that the ``easy`` loans have raised the standard of living in west.
I read a book by a bangladeshi man, Muhammad Yunis, who pioneered ``micro-lending`` in Bangladesh and thus provided working capital to poor village people who otherwise would have not been able to start any business of their own. Now contrast that ``essential`` borrowing in Bangladesh with the gluttonous borrowing in US. Here, the trend is to take loans over your home equity to finance a better car. Or people paying 19% interest on their credit cards because they could not live without Christmas shopping. Now this is not a cost-free or a win-win transaction for everyone. Indeed, the lender will make money and the borrower will get his/her worth in terms of happiness over having a new car. But someone does pay. Who pays? Maybe we all pay when millions of borrowers default on their loans or go through foreclosures and the lending agencies raise the borrowing costs for everyone to recuperate their losses. Or perhaps we all pay when the US government increasingly borrows money from Chinese to finance our debt binge. Or perhaps we all pay when our high debt makes a dent on dollar`s value.
In essence, my point being that Islam does not ``ban`` lending / borrowing of money and allows for risk / time value to be accounted for. It calls for responsible lending and responsible borrowing. But since it bills itself as a religion for ``all times``, it is vigilant about any practices that would lead your generations into shackles of debt.
#45 Posted by Naqshbandi on May 10, 2006 7:47:04 am
Gill sahib, an excellent article. I agree with everything you`ve written --(a first I think!); a tiny little error though. You wrote that Islamic law considers it wrong to take loans which require interest: this is not universally true: according to the rulings of the Hanafi school of Sunni Islam, which is by far the most widespread, the rulings forbidding interest or usury [riba] only apply between Muslims living in an Islamic state and NOT in dealings with Muslims and non-Muslims in a non-Muslim country.
#44 Posted by freethinker on May 10, 2006 4:27:59 am
dullabhatti:
Thanks for giving the example of student loans. All of my children took student loans when they went to college. Of course they paid the loans back in ``the old fashion`` way. The point is that they got the money to pay their college expenses and paid it back when they finished their degrees and got the job, with interest (subsidized). Every cent was paid back. It was a great relief for me because it would have been difficult for me to bear the expenses with the salary that I was earning.
That is the reason I am pleading to Islamize this system rather than condemning it.
Mohammad Gill
Thanks for giving the example of student loans. All of my children took student loans when they went to college. Of course they paid the loans back in ``the old fashion`` way. The point is that they got the money to pay their college expenses and paid it back when they finished their degrees and got the job, with interest (subsidized). Every cent was paid back. It was a great relief for me because it would have been difficult for me to bear the expenses with the salary that I was earning.
That is the reason I am pleading to Islamize this system rather than condemning it.
Mohammad Gill
#43 Posted by dullabhatti on May 9, 2006 10:12:52 pm
Gill sahib...mortgage is just one example of borrowed money benefiting all and hurting none.....what about student loans? a poor student who otherwise would be trapped in poverty for life and probably generations, borrows money at a low interest rate, goes to school to get educaiton, find a respectable job paying lgood living salary..student returns the money over few years...who is hurt? same thing about a small businessman improving his business, a farmer getting bank loan o buy the equipment and improve his production.
of course all above could be bad if student is going to smoke cigars made up of his laon money and skip school, businessman is going to use the loan to buy a car instead and go on vacation, farmer spending the loan money on marrying off his daughter....now interest is bad because some idiots don`t know the implications of mis-using their resources?
of course all above could be bad if student is going to smoke cigars made up of his laon money and skip school, businessman is going to use the loan to buy a car instead and go on vacation, farmer spending the loan money on marrying off his daughter....now interest is bad because some idiots don`t know the implications of mis-using their resources?
#42 Posted by freethinker on May 9, 2006 4:23:57 pm
dullabhatti:
Thanks for focusing on the example of my mortgage loan that I had quoted in my essay,
Before taking the mortgage loan, I was living in a rented house. I paid $500 per month as rent for the first year, then the landlord increased it to $550. I paid $550 for a few months and after my loan was approved I bought the house.
The house that I bought was slightly more upscale than the rented house. I lived in that house for some 14 years and had paid around $100,000 in mortgage installments. I was able to sell my house for $106,000 after deducting the agent’s cut. Had I lived all the while in a rented house, I might have paid $80,000 to $90,000 without owning any equity in the house. Simple arithmetic shows that I saved money in the deal. It was not at the expense of the mortgage lender; they made their own money on the loan that they gave to me. I like to believe, it was a case of judicious investment.
We are taking the religious injunctions literally and wrongly. What is proscribed by religion is extortion. There is no extortion involved in mortgage lending in the free market. The interest rate doesn’t remain fixed; it fluctuates with the market trends. I didn’t do anything illegal by taking the loan and I did not willfully hurt any body. Why should religion prohibit it? We should not go by labels and literal text. There is difference between the “proscribed interest” and interest in general. There is interest and ‘interest.’ There are various forms of interest and nobody tries to shortchange anybody. If you believe that you will lose by taking a mortgage loan, don’t take it.
Mohammad Gill
Thanks for focusing on the example of my mortgage loan that I had quoted in my essay,
Before taking the mortgage loan, I was living in a rented house. I paid $500 per month as rent for the first year, then the landlord increased it to $550. I paid $550 for a few months and after my loan was approved I bought the house.
The house that I bought was slightly more upscale than the rented house. I lived in that house for some 14 years and had paid around $100,000 in mortgage installments. I was able to sell my house for $106,000 after deducting the agent’s cut. Had I lived all the while in a rented house, I might have paid $80,000 to $90,000 without owning any equity in the house. Simple arithmetic shows that I saved money in the deal. It was not at the expense of the mortgage lender; they made their own money on the loan that they gave to me. I like to believe, it was a case of judicious investment.
We are taking the religious injunctions literally and wrongly. What is proscribed by religion is extortion. There is no extortion involved in mortgage lending in the free market. The interest rate doesn’t remain fixed; it fluctuates with the market trends. I didn’t do anything illegal by taking the loan and I did not willfully hurt any body. Why should religion prohibit it? We should not go by labels and literal text. There is difference between the “proscribed interest” and interest in general. There is interest and ‘interest.’ There are various forms of interest and nobody tries to shortchange anybody. If you believe that you will lose by taking a mortgage loan, don’t take it.
Mohammad Gill
#41 Posted by dullabhatti on May 9, 2006 2:02:16 pm
#31 Every rule in Islam is based purely on justice in contradiction to other religons present today. If interest is forbidden and declared haram , then it is becoz of safeguarding the rights of the people who are being affected by this CURSE. Islam wants justice for all and if FEW or even any number of people gets benifit from the loss of even a single individual then Islam does not allow this.
the above is an interesting statement. You can apply it in Gill`s case also. If interest was not allowed, Gill would have lost on the opportunity of owning a house, providing a shelter to his kids and eventually saving money for his retirement. Banning of interest would have caused mr Gill a Loss. In his case, he has benefited, his lender has benefited. Who has lost in this transaction? none.
charging exorbitant interests like 2% or 3% a month is wrong, unjustfull and is rightly banned in most civilized banking system.
the above is an interesting statement. You can apply it in Gill`s case also. If interest was not allowed, Gill would have lost on the opportunity of owning a house, providing a shelter to his kids and eventually saving money for his retirement. Banning of interest would have caused mr Gill a Loss. In his case, he has benefited, his lender has benefited. Who has lost in this transaction? none.
charging exorbitant interests like 2% or 3% a month is wrong, unjustfull and is rightly banned in most civilized banking system.
#40 Posted by khurram on May 9, 2006 9:23:21 am
Dear Mr. Gill,
[The essence of Islam has been reduced to mere “theory” in the Muslim world; it is seldom practiced apart from the routine ritualistic “namaz” and “roza”. According to this theory, the Islamic way of life is the best in the world. Unfortunately, it doesn’t actually exist in practice. What exists is the Muslim way of life – the way the Muslims live. The example of corruption that I have given above is by and large the way the Muslims live. Honesty is an Islamic value but is seldom practiced in the Muslim world. ]
Fully agree with you here.
However, this is an effect not a cause of our predicament. The cause of corruption is not our religious failings or some cultural characteristics. It is the economic structure of our society. Other societies with similar economic structures are similarly corrupt. The economic pie is small and the state controls a disproportionate amount of it. In addition, the state is too powerful to be held accountable. So, it gradually gets corrupted.
You will be amazed how scrupulously honest people in the black market are. In private transactions if you defraud someone you lose reputation and are driven out of business. But the state cannot be driven out of business or even punished for its acts. So it can get away with corruption. Behind every corrupt transaction you will find some kind of state monopoly.
[The essence of Islam has been reduced to mere “theory” in the Muslim world; it is seldom practiced apart from the routine ritualistic “namaz” and “roza”. According to this theory, the Islamic way of life is the best in the world. Unfortunately, it doesn’t actually exist in practice. What exists is the Muslim way of life – the way the Muslims live. The example of corruption that I have given above is by and large the way the Muslims live. Honesty is an Islamic value but is seldom practiced in the Muslim world. ]
Fully agree with you here.
However, this is an effect not a cause of our predicament. The cause of corruption is not our religious failings or some cultural characteristics. It is the economic structure of our society. Other societies with similar economic structures are similarly corrupt. The economic pie is small and the state controls a disproportionate amount of it. In addition, the state is too powerful to be held accountable. So, it gradually gets corrupted.
You will be amazed how scrupulously honest people in the black market are. In private transactions if you defraud someone you lose reputation and are driven out of business. But the state cannot be driven out of business or even punished for its acts. So it can get away with corruption. Behind every corrupt transaction you will find some kind of state monopoly.
#39 Posted by delhiwala on May 9, 2006 8:53:31 am
Re: # 38
Kulharee Jee,
Tussey dono da bada khaas te naazuk rishata je, mai kya je tussey dusso ge taan jyada asar hoevega.....
Kulharee Jee,
Tussey dono da bada khaas te naazuk rishata je, mai kya je tussey dusso ge taan jyada asar hoevega.....
#38 Posted by Kulharee on May 9, 2006 8:21:49 am
Re: # 37
Dilli Ji, why don’t you tell him yourself? MaiN koi tera Mama lagda waaN?
Dilli Ji, why don’t you tell him yourself? MaiN koi tera Mama lagda waaN?
#37 Posted by delhiwala on May 9, 2006 8:12:20 am
Sorry Readers, I just had to divert this conversation for a second!
Mr Big-QutubMinar errr.... I mean Qutubuddin Shah Saab: Mere Gull suno...
Please ask your same sex partner Pandit Jee from NYC, i.e. Mr ChaltaPoorja to not carry his Sexual Orientation on his chest. I don`t give a damn what you people do in your house but please dont advertise it publicly.
Now where was I......
Oh Yeah, For the first time Mr Gill(if he is a real Gill, then he probably have some Indian gene pool) made any sense on Chowk FP.
That is the main reason I dont like my own people in Amreeka, they are always whining about this culture...that vulture but at the same would drive a Taxi like a dog for 15 hrs, and carry those half-naked woman in their cab to make money, whom they despise.
What hypcrites.....
I think Pakis need to be little more secure in their own religion and be more tolerant. Nobody is after their prophet, they are always afraid of Allah`s wrath on the drop of a hat.
Insecurity breeds and ailment called ``lack_of_confidence-maccio`` that Pakistani people by far and large suffer from; they need to objectively anlayse their own history and past and try to fit in with their modern lives.
Perhaps people like Mr Gill need to interact more with other Gills from East Punjab and share their common heritage.
Thank you for ignoring me!!
Mr Big-QutubMinar errr.... I mean Qutubuddin Shah Saab: Mere Gull suno...
Please ask your same sex partner Pandit Jee from NYC, i.e. Mr ChaltaPoorja to not carry his Sexual Orientation on his chest. I don`t give a damn what you people do in your house but please dont advertise it publicly.
Now where was I......
Oh Yeah, For the first time Mr Gill(if he is a real Gill, then he probably have some Indian gene pool) made any sense on Chowk FP.
That is the main reason I dont like my own people in Amreeka, they are always whining about this culture...that vulture but at the same would drive a Taxi like a dog for 15 hrs, and carry those half-naked woman in their cab to make money, whom they despise.
What hypcrites.....
I think Pakis need to be little more secure in their own religion and be more tolerant. Nobody is after their prophet, they are always afraid of Allah`s wrath on the drop of a hat.
Insecurity breeds and ailment called ``lack_of_confidence-maccio`` that Pakistani people by far and large suffer from; they need to objectively anlayse their own history and past and try to fit in with their modern lives.
Perhaps people like Mr Gill need to interact more with other Gills from East Punjab and share their common heritage.
Thank you for ignoring me!!
#36 Posted by Kulharee on May 9, 2006 7:46:51 am
Re: # 35
Echobobob.. that’s the Islamic way, reject those who show concern, but babu calling someone a Hindu is not an insult. It’s a complement from where I come from.
Echobobob.. that’s the Islamic way, reject those who show concern, but babu calling someone a Hindu is not an insult. It’s a complement from where I come from.
#35 Posted by echoboom on May 9, 2006 7:41:07 am
Kulharee:34
Of all people a hindu (s) acting uppity and getting sleepless for Pakistan! hai rey Mayyaa , muslay phir aa rahay haiN, Hindu-Kush sey.
Seems like they have to reminded of their station.Musharraf & his secualoo liberaloo looloo types are certainly fifth-columnists. Quislings!
But the tide is turning & the Tsunami is not afar.
What says MountOlives in his sermon today?
Of all people a hindu (s) acting uppity and getting sleepless for Pakistan! hai rey Mayyaa , muslay phir aa rahay haiN, Hindu-Kush sey.
Seems like they have to reminded of their station.Musharraf & his secualoo liberaloo looloo types are certainly fifth-columnists. Quislings!
But the tide is turning & the Tsunami is not afar.
What says MountOlives in his sermon today?
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