A Failing State in a State of Denial

Dear Salim...

``Why has the rest of the ``unnatural imposed state`` continued to flourish and is even more united than at its inception?``

1-Serbia has also continued to grow strong. It formed the large chunk of the unnatural imposed state. As for Pakistan breaking up (and bleak future as you say) it is merely a wish, a wet dream... the only unnatural thing about Pakistan was bringing together two wings in one federation- a blunder that was Nehru`s insistence (he was scared of Balkanisation if an Independent Bangladesh had come into existence in 1947).

2- Furthermore... who are we kidding here. As states India`s basis is not secularism and Pakistan`s basis is not Islam. India`s basis was thinly veiled Hindu chauvinism which was clever enough to see merit in self righteously singing the secular singsong while continuing to Hindunise ( just see Indian TV and you will see that Door Darshan is more consciously Hindu despite being the mouth piece of ``Secular`` India than even PTV the mouth piece of ``Islamic`` Pakistan). Hinduism is all pervasive in Indian society.

This ``secularism and democracy`` as a basis for India and ``Islam`` as a basis for Pakistan is mythology drummed down by the Indian Nationalists and Pakistani Islamists and you know it. It is true that India has a secular constitution due to the efforts of one Dr Ambedkar - who literally put his foot down in the face of Hindu and Gandhian Fascism. Yet Hindu and Gandhian Fascism continues to define India... just look at Gandhi`s hometown. India is the most god-obsessed country on the planet - even more than the theocratic Islamic Republic that Pakistan.

Here is the summation of my argument:

1- Nation states have their own logic.
2- They don`t need basis.
3- They are always born out of conflict.
4- Secularism and Democracy are not ``ideologies`` or ``basis`` but an evolutionary process in lives of nations.
5- India is a Hindu Chauvinist cultural state - no doubt constitutionally secular and democratic because of the higher level of political evolution amongst Hindus and because of that great man Dr Ambedkar who made sure Gandhian Fascism was kept out of the constitution.
6- Pakistan was and always will be a reaction to 5. Owing to backwardness of Muslims in general... it also continues to try and reconcile Islam with modernity.

Manto Bhai,
You see I don`t mind being a citizen of the same country as thousands of Pakistani Punjabis, Indian Sikhs, Indian Hindus, or Pakistani Pathans. I am talking about the United States. I know that Pakistani Punjabis and others will not unfairly dominate every aspect of my life. I cannot say the same about Pakistan - a country that is unfairly dominated by one province, one ethnic group, and one school of thought even in religios matters. I hope that I have clarified my position on why Pakistan cannot survive as a multiethnic state unless Punjabis reform their attitudes. Thanks.

Manto #264, {``Salim Chauhan Bhai...
As far as precedents go... Yugoslavia actually went through in 1990s what British India went through much earlier... a natural end to an unnatural imposed state ... imposed by a authoritarian but fair regime i.e. British Raj and Marshall Tito.``}

Manto Bhai,
I beg to differ, sir. Why has the rest of the ``unnatural imposed state`` continued to flourish and is even more united than at its inception? Meanwhile, Pakistan is more fragmented, more divided, and has a bleaker future than when it was founded. The reason is that its basis was always artificial and not natural. Pakistan`s basis was Islam. India`s bases are secularism and democracy - if either is discarded, I would say that India would disintegrate faster than Pakistan. Just my observation.

BJkumar...

Your pathetic attempts at distorting reality (not to mention my arguments) aside let us see what is not merely a hypothesis but a FACT:

1- Gandhi thought black people were subhuman.

2- Gandhi beat his wife.

3- Gandhi slept naked with young girls mostly his grandnieces.


Guess what the shrink would say in a session with MKG? Oh wait Freud would probably link 1 2 and 3 to some inferiority complex regarding you know what? So I can see why you are so eager to ``hypothesise`` about Jinnah... because facts about Gandhi are so disturbing and reveal him for what he realy was that you assume that if he was such Gandhi was really a Gandi Gandhi with u substituted for i ... others must be so...

So continue to hypothesise.... I can understand your pain.

#262 Jangee

I agree that short is sweet. However, try as one may, not everybody can be as sweet as you!

In the middle of this ongoing jang....

In the middle of this never-ending night....

In the heat of this blood-letting fight....

As if we were all doing a Rumba....

Because talking to SOME people around here...,

Is like....

Is like talking to a Khambha.....

Andaaz apna apna!

Cheers!

#263 Yasser

It is well established that he opposed her marrying. Ostensibly, it was on religious grounds.

But he was ``secular`` - right? He ate pork and drank wine, right?!

So it is unlikely that religion would have been at the root of this issue. So what WAS it?

Further, while he opposed her marriage - he apparently never tried to hook her up with anybody else, did he?

Why?

It is plausible because she was right where he wished her to remain - for the rest of her life!

He could not have carried the grandchildren’s pictures at the time, because they were born AFTER her marriage.

You may agree or disagree, after all it IS a hypothesis - yet perhaps it is much stronger than most of the ones flaunted by chowk.com using its fake verse creators!

It will be interesting to find out if MAJ had any sessions with a shrink and if so if the shrink`s reports are available and what they reveal.

Cheers!

Apology

Looking back I see that by resorting to the same tactics as the Gandhi-follower, I have only debased myself. While it was possible that Gandhi would resort to such abuse and we know his followers do it on a routine basis- so I don`t blame BJKumar the least bit - it is his ideology ... the dance steps of Mahatma as he calls it... it was unthinkable that Jinnah would and this is where I, and the rest of Pakistan, have truly failed.

Therefore I apologise for responding in kind in 263.

Salim Chauhan Bhai...

As far as precedents go... Yugoslavia actually went through in 1990s what British India went through much earlier... a natural end to an unnatural imposed state ... imposed by a authoritarian but fair regime i.e. British Raj and Marshall Tito.



-YLH

BJ...

Yawn.

The only reason one says that Jinnah was of ``secular outlook`` is because your daddy-os hailed him as the best Ambassador of Hindu Muslim Unity for 30+ years. Indeed it is well known that Indian National Congress planted Jinnah in the Muslim League in 1913 to hijack the latter... what a slap on the face then that the very same person was so disillusioned by bigotry of the majority that he turned out to be the most hated man by the hatemongers.

As for the rest of your nonsense... I suppose bringing someone`s personal life and making stories about it amounts to a counterargument in your pathetic little world but not in reality. Infact Jinnah and his daughter reconciled barely two years later... and it is well known that Jinnah carried his grandchildren`s pictures in his wallet like a doted grandfather.. when he was away.


But we know what the real fact of history is (unlike your fertile yet perverted imagination) that Gandhiji was sleeping naked with young girls (mostly his grandnieces) ... and administering salt enemas up theirs... maybe there is some truth to my slip in 258 after all... So keep making a fool out of yourself... every Gandhu has his day and you shall have yours... just like the MahaGandhu had his.

bjwa .. you write all this long interacts and i try to read them..its a pain man.
have you heard of minimalism? pls write shorter.

Did the state of Pakistan really fail? A legitimate question! As the high number of interacts, now exceeding 260, indicates, the debate can be carried on endlessly. But there is little doubt that its founder - Mohammed Ali Jinnah - who started this rump country, failed his daughter in the way he tried to oppose her getting married.

Although others have implied that he opposed that marriage on the grounds of Mr. Wadia being a non-Muslim, an alternate explanation has all but gone completely unnoticed! As the mantos are so fond of saying - Mr. Jinnah was secular in his outlook - drinking wine and eating pork must prove that conclusively to some, after all!

But it is entirely plausible that Mr. Jinnah was opposed to the marriage of his daughter irrespective of who she was marrying - because he could not bear separation from her!

This description sort of portrays MAJ as overly focused on the sexual aspects of his daughter - a variation on the traditional version of the Oedipus Complex - in which the male child seeks sexual liaison with his mother - or its female counterpart - called the Electra complex. However, this hypothesis needs to be carefully scrutinized by psychoanalysts acquainted with this field.

The hypothesis above may have at least one weakness in that it also assumes the dominance of a sex drive in Jinnah and the corollary that his overt ego drives were also at their root libidinal; perhaps further stimulated due to repression at an early age. As he would lust after his own flesh and blood - perhaps the father in him felt guilty - but the lawyer in him would have had little difficulty overcoming any signs of such guilt! This would have resulted from his ego-defensive tendencies - and perhaps got reinforced due to the neurotic state derived from inferiority feelings and overcompensation of his what were in reality lack of masculinity due to various physical diseases.

Just imagine, had he not such a disability, he would have been reconciled with his daughter - living a harmonious life - and not felt the need for ``proving`` repeatedly his manhood by ``getting his way`` on the formation of this rump country.

If that had turned out to be the case, Pakistan would have never turned into the failure that it appears to have turned into - as documented with so much statistics in the present article!

Mantolives #255 {``Similarly - the ``historical`` Slav state (formed from the ancient bond of the ``Southern Slav`` people) is no longer in existence... ``}

Manto,
Very good analogy. Yugoslavia was an ethnic/linguistic state composed of southern Slavic areas of the Balkans, with Albanians of Kosovo thrown in to please the Serbs` attachment to history. Similarly, Pakistan was a religious state composed of Muslim areas of India and western UP or Hyderabad Deccan would have played Kosovo’s role had either been part of Pakistan. Regardless, the analogy gets even better with the Serbs` selfishness for total power at the expense of the other brethren Slavs - Croats, Bosnians, Slovenes, and ``Macedonians.`` Just consider the Punjabis as Serbs, Bengalis as Croats, and so on and you get the complete picture - Pakistan = Yugoslavia.

Ooops that was an `i` not a `u`.

I apologise.

Wow- Such difficulty on part of Gandhu`s followers to come to terms with a territorial reality?

#256(addendum)

And I suppose even morontos should be allowed room for hallucinations.

It just so happens that the results of the LAST such hallucination stare everybody too directly in the face!

Screw those hallucinators - screw them all! They have truly earned such screwing!

#253 Kaal

[A very important point, in my opinion too. That`s precisely what lay behind the hallucinations in # 217. But there is no reason why Pakistan or any other country cannot become another such historical nation, over time.]

Kaal, in many ways, the point is being made in this article that the country of Pakistan as the Moron Ali Joker hallucinated it is already there - it is already history - if in fact it EVER really existed anywhere outside of his hallucinations.

Another gentleman earlier elsewhere referred to those hallucinations as the ``junoon`` - and he actually experienced it himself - and now regrets it (I think)!

Ah, the ``junoon`` - like an elephant in heat!

The ``junoon`` that rules the mind and kicks out all reason - the junoon that rules no matter what the cost because it is the season - until the popularion gets raped and until the illegitimate baby is conceived by force!

And from that point onwards it is all downhill for the baby and the mother! Because all that the baby turns out to be is a pigmy monster - too small to hurt anybody except those who are close to it and those who hold on to it.

If simple facts are imperceptible to thick minds - by definition such mind holders must be called morons!

Unfortunately, the country of Pakistan has a not-so-good track record of running out of its morons and whatever space is not taken by the same gets amply filled by those morontos!