The Gap: Can the USA and Islam Bridge It?

Bharath #83, {``...the Sharia as he understands it will ``establish social justice and coexist harmoniously with a democratic polity.`` But this is argument by assertion. He has not provided any basis for this optimism. So far, the record in countries where the Sharia is applied -- Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Sudan, Afghanistan -- is less than encouraging.

the Sharia harks back to a decidedly antidemocratic sensibility in everything from its emphasis on God`s will (not popular sovereignty) to its privileging of Muslims over non-Muslims. For Muslims to develop functioning democracies requires that they put aside the Sharia or transmute it into something quite different from what it is understood to be today.``

Bharath Bhai,
I agree wholeheartedly with your entire post and it mirrors my own beliefs and aspirations. Loyalty to one`s country`s legal, moral, and valid positions and respect for others is not too much to ask of anyone claiming to be Indian, American, or Pakistani. Communalism is just an excuse for the morally weak and economically inferior people to break the rules and benefit from the anarchy they are able to create temporarily. That has nothing to do with support for true secularism - an environment where one can practice or not practice any doctrine that does not interfere with the rights of others.

As for Sharia Law, my friend, that is the real problem. On this issue the so-called liberals of Islam and those ostensibly eager to modernize expose themselves. This is where they start their waffling. In my opinion, Sharia Law was compiled by mortals in the 8th and 9th centuries, at a time when inspecting your camel`s ass for crabs was the main issue of the day. Concepts such as margins, options, NPV, IRR, same-sex marriages, defensive offense, mass terrorism, cell phones with cameras, and ATMs were not confronting society everywhere. Seriously, we need to totally overhaul, or borrow as Ataturk adopted the Swiss Code, our judicial system and what constitutes a happy, safe, just, and meaningful life for all of us. Thanks for your opinions.

I happen to agree somrwhat with both pmishra2 and nasah.

Personally I happen to be a follower of Sir Syed Ahmad Khan

and the Aligarh model of Islamic reformation through

education.

On a side note I enjoyed Dr. Muqtedar Khan`s presentation at

this event very much. He has a very sharp mind and a great

sense of humor. His remark on India was not off the mark.

Pakistan is just as bad. Minorities are often under physical

danger in both countries. There is a great deal of room for

improvement there.

On the SA model, let us not get too carried away. Over

the past 15 years I have covered events by CAIR, AMA, UMA,

AMV, met leaders of MPAC, ISNA, ICNA (have not run into

CHICKNA Salim_Chauhan (or have I?)). Almost none of these

people subscribe to the SA model. They have adpted their thinking

to where they live, the U.S.A. because like me, this is where their

children are growing up. The same is true for Pakistani organizations

and IM ones. They tend to be more liberal, hold cultural events etc.

There are of course some exceptions that you will run into now and then.

but overall, post 9/11 America is a different landscape. America no longer

needs fanatics to counter the bad communists. It needs to contain what it

it had a hand in creating.

Ras

#83 bharath

Good catch, I missed some of Shri Muqtedar soft islamist-type comments.

Overall I think he is on the right track; Malaysia and Turkey are reasonable societies with strong muslim influence. The main problem is in the culture and islam of the middle-east; unfortunately, pakistan, which regards itself as more arab than the arabs has now copied this flavor of islam. As these people are culturally indian, they have to express this arabism thru more and more extremism. This also has slowly some impact on Bangladesh and Indian muslims.

I wonder why Malaysia has much less impact on Bangladesh and IM than Saudi Arabia. Is it just the saudi oil money which is used to teach hatred and dis-respect for others? Is it like a colonial inferiority complex which places arabs and saudis at a higher-level than others? A deeper investigation would be revealing.

as long as we Muslims men carry our unreformed unmodernized backward medieval evangelical religion in our sleeves -- jamming under a Bedouin tent -- as Islamic snake handlers -- with our women parading on the Western streets in Halloween Headgear at Christmas Eve.....

.....the gap will remain a gaping Canyon........ remember your English alphabet -- the capital A is for America...THE small a is for -- ASSIMILATE......ASSIMILATE....want to live here for ever....you will ASSIMILATE.

Want to live in WEST -- we HAVE to Westernize -- NOT Easternize......that will be silly

Re: # 22

Zeena

You are wonderful Zeena. I agree with you 100%. Why not fill the gap between the Islam of the Prophet called `Rehmatulaalimeen` (A mercy for the worlds) and the Islam of Ilam Din and Aamir Cheema? What Ilam Din had been accused of doing at Lahore (He himself had denied it though before the court), Aamir Cheema tried to copy it in Berlin and thus created a new wide gap between the Muslims and the world at large. See, while the Muslims in the West seem to be stunned fearing reaction by the West, the Pakies in the Pakland are all praise for Aamir, oblivious of the reaction for the poor Muslims who had gone to the west only to earn their living by paying a very high cost in most cases.

re#81,
Salim Bhai,
this is a general comment, i am not saying you do this:

Any time when riots are instigated where people of one religion go around and kill unarmed civilians of another religion, and (with government machinery looking at the other way or worse actively participating) ......
....it severly undermines and shakes the very fundamentals/ foundations of the country. Any sane person should condemn this/ bash this. No doubt out this. Shameful.


Also we should all be skeptical about some people who claim that they luv India etc, but have absolutely no plans whatsoever for reconciliation with other groups.

Having said that....
People who beleive or claim that thre is no political muslim extremism, people who refuse to acknowledge that such extremism and intimidatory politics drive and sustain
Hindu extremism are ostriches with thier heads tightly inside the sand....

yet this is what goes around as secularism in India. Thus all muslims are secularists, Muslim parties are secular parties.........and any one who remotely critizes muslim extremism is instantly labelled communalist.

Here is an extract from pmishraji`s web link:

Dr. Muqtedar Khan: The maqasid (objectives) of the Sharia is to establish social justice, equality, tolerance, and freedom of religion in societies

Dr. Daniel Pipes: Professor Khan confidently tells us that the Sharia as he understands it will ``establish social justice and coexist harmoniously with a democratic polity.`` But this is argument by assertion. He has not provided any basis for this optimism. So far, the record in countries where the Sharia is applied -- Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Sudan, Afghanistan -- is less than encouraging.

the Sharia harks back to a decidedly antidemocratic sensibility in everything from its emphasis on God`s will (not popular sovereignty) to its privileging of Muslims over non-Muslims. For Muslims to develop functioning democracies requires that they put aside the Sharia or transmute it into something quite different from what it is understood to be today.

More about Shri Muqtedar Khan. Overall, I would say he seems a reasonable guy. I think it is reasonable to bash Modi and India by extension given the murder and killings in Gujarat.


http://www.danielpipes.org/article/1167

#78, Bharath Bhai,
Thank you for your kind explanation. Seriously, I resent Dr. Muqtedar Khan for making such an asinine statement. It is hypothetical, insulting to BOTH Americans and Indians, and most of all insulting to Muslims for not being able to control terrorists among us. Instead he wants Muslims to compare the victims` calm and patience in reacting to terrorism. The good people are the ones who can die in peace and not resort to violence of their own. Wah wah - what about putting an end to terrorism in the first place. And they gave a PhD to this moron?

Re: # 79 kaal

Yeah, yeah - we know all that... at this time, that point is moot - nobody questioning who chose stay back where... or who to be blamed for what...

the point here is - just stop rioting at the drop of a hat... if you are not satisfied with way things are - well, find non-violent way to get them to your liking... there are ample avenues open for a civilized solution to disputes...

Riot-me-a-river mindset will get you nowhere... it will get a lot of agony for everybody - those who chose to riot and innocent bystanders...

Enough is enough... this kind of non-sense has to stop...

Inquirer, mohar

Please let`s be careful here. If anyone should be in the clear, it is the Muslims who stayed back in India, who chose to be Indians - at a time when the killer tornado or fear, uncertainty, and hatred had been let loose.

About the post 1947 mess, nobody - neither Hindu extremists nor Muslim extremists - is to be blamed even remotely, except for Hindu liberals.

Re: # 71
Salim Bhai,
I didn`t refer to you at all....
and definitely i won`t call you a muslim apologist either..


regards,

Inquirer #66 {``INDIA GAVE RIGHT OF VOTES TO THE PEOPLE WHO LED TO ITS VIVISECTION. WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT?``}

Inquirer Sahib,
If you are referring to the act of partition itself, please allow me to disagree. Partition was effected by neither a referendum nor a plebiscite. It was merely a rapid, selfish, and insidious exercise in power grabbing by both ML and Congress stalwarts. The British decided to leave, Mountbatten placed an ultimatum, and the desis got intimidated into making rash decisions. Then everybody started killing, butchering, raping, burning, running, escaping, and blaming. A typical Chinese fire-drill - except performed by brown people in all their shameless glory of gore and lust.

Re: # 67

masadi,

..... you might reject your brothers of a slightly different feather but your ``stand on the Quran as the only authority on Islam`` puts you in the same flock of america-haters ..... your cockamamie denials do not improve your credibility

Re: # 66
[...INDIA GAVE RIGHT OF VOTES TO THE PEOPLE WHO LED TO ITS VIVISECTION. WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT?...]

Right to riot at the drop of a hat...

hamidum2 #65 {``most muslims as represented by the icna, isna, cair and msa are totally out of sync with normal/regular americans ......... masadi is a prime example``}

Hamidum Sahib,
While we are eye to eye, cheek to cheek, and shoulder to shoulder on this subject of ISNA/ICNA/CHICKNA/MSA/ALKayda/TallyBan/ISI/MSA/CAIR/LeT/SeS/JUI/JI/MMA, please acknowledge Mr. Masadi as also being totally out of synchronization with this group of self-promoting, self-righteous, trumpet blowers. I would easily dismiss them as nutcases, quacks, and people whose elevator doesn`t go all the way up, but unfortunately, these morons have plenty of time, lots of money, and even more desire to be humiliated than Enron executives.

#72 by mohar11

dil Pur mUtt ley yaar. MeiN hooN naaN!