The Gap: Can the USA and Islam Bridge It?

Re: # 120
Here are more topics for GEOTV discussion tomorrow:

....Continuing Paki terrorism in South Asia

.....Global perceptions on Paki terrorism

`````` the hilarious joke of calling Paki an ally of US

and


HERE IS AN ASSESSMENT OF CURRENT PAKI TERROR STRATEGY:


http://www.saag.org/papers18/paper1797.html


23. Pakistan has been following a multi-pronged strategy in its contribution to the international community`s fight against jihadi terrorism emanating from its territory:

First, vigorous action against Al Qaeda elements identified by the US and non-action against those, who have not come to the notice of the US.

Second, non-action to trace and capture or kill Osama bin Laden.

Third, closing its eyes to the activities of the Taliban from its territory.

Four, continued assistance, instigation and use of the jihadi terrorists operating against India, while ostensibly banning their activities in response to US pressure. de jure, they are illegal organisations, but de facto, they are the treasured assets of Pakistan`s military and intelligence establishments.


24. This has been the assessment of India. This seems to be the assessment of the Hamid Karzai Government of Kabul too as well as of a growing section of independent analysts even in the US.

............

#111 HP writes <<< Asadi,
I think you are looking at it with an emotional pov. There is a clear rationale behind Ahmedinejad’s letter. Before I come to it, I should say that I don’t underestimate Iranian diplomats. They are not new to this world of diplomatic maneuverings. Pretty much the same group has control over the Iranian diplomacy for the last 25-26 years and they have consistently been able to put a better foot forward despite hostility from all US governments. >>>

HP sahib that guy is an idiot. The US brought him to power by consolidating public opinion in Iran around the nuclear issue which happened to be his main point of no compromise. The US is using him, I know that, and to the detriment of the people in his country, that was all my post and conclusion were about. The wording of his letter shows extreme naivety on how things work in the US. His letter which is full of religious references and well know arguments against US foreign policy, when taken in the context of his previous rhetoric will be used by the US elite at will to bolster domestic support for whatever they do with Iran in the future. This guy seems just as naively idiotic to me as UBL but in a position to do much greater harm in the region, to his own people, than UBL can ever achieve.

They have been able to ``put a better foot forward`` only because what they wanted coincided with what the US elite were desiring at the time. You are correct about oil prices. Such confrontations, projected towards the future, as threat, are good for profit maximization of US corporations, like C. W. Mills said, they have become for the corporations, ``the business way of American life``. These ayatollahs sided with the British and the Americans when they got rid of Mossadeq, when the shah got too powerful they once again conspired with them for a transfer of power, when the reformists were getting popular they brought up the nuclear issue to consolidate the power of the clergy. It is merely a cat and mouse game where the opponents are not actual opponents at all (in my opinion). The mullahs and the US elite are bedfellows.

The letter while it might help the Iranian president (not their government) with the masses in the Middle East will do next to nothing to bolster their support with the governments of those countries. What is happening in Iraq does not help its cause with Middle Eastern countries as well. I do not think this was a planned diplomatic move on the part of Ahmadinejad. If the idiot was so ``diplomatic`` he wouldn`t have used his other nonsense rhetoric earlier knowing full well that the western media that doominates global media would pick up parts they could use for their own benefit. If he feels this rhetoric will help Iran attain hegemony in the Middle East, he is also naively mistaken.

A Muslim American Tale

Long, long ago, in a faraway place called the golden land, a bunch of Pakistani fat cats with time on hand got together - dragging a few non-Pakistani fat cats along - where they discussed at length the demerits of an evil black cat somewhere ``out there``. It was not that they had been unaware of the bad cat before, but they had always found it was far easier to ignore the evil black cat rather than to face up to it. Besides, there was a certain degree of ambivalence because it was unclear whether the evil cat was on ``their`` side - and there was the fear of being branded a non-cat which carried a cat death penalty.

A lot of meowing took place.

The fat cats had a difficult time dissociating themselves from the evil black cat which was doing a lot of damage to the image of cats in general and fat cats in particular. It was unanimously concluded that it was in general a good idea to bell that evil black cat.

End of story.

Sequeal:

One of the fat cats liked food. He went home and cooked up something using what he gathered in the gathering.

Americans and Muslims are Bhai-Bhai. Except US wanted to bomb Afghanistan back to stone age and it also wanted to get rid of Iraqi dictator on suspicion of having possessed WMDs. Except that there were no WMDs. Crusades never really stopped. No matter what some deluded Muslim might like to think. Either Islam changes or it goes. Sau Baat Kee Ekk Baat.

Full text
Iran letter to Bush was invitation to Islam: President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad



LONDON, May 12 (IranMania) - Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said that his letter to President George W Bush did not concern the nuclear dossier, but rather was an invitation to Islam and the prophets culture, IRNA reported.

.....

Stressing that the letter was beyond the nuclear issue, the chief executive said that in principle, the country`s nuclear case is not so significant to make him write a letter about it.
``We act according to laws and our activities are quite clear. We are rather intent on solving more fundamental global matters.
...``The letter was an invitation to monotheism and justice, which are common to all divine prophets. If the call is responded positively, there will be no more problems to be solved,`` added the president.
...............

``We hold talks with our allies, such as Indonesia, quite smoothly. However those intending to speak to us with authority should attempt to change their attitude,`` he added.

About the possibility of military attack on Iran, he said that psychological war is quite likely and expressed his doubt about the military option.
.............
In response to a question about suspension of enrichment, the president said that Iran will agree to suspend the process only if all those having access to nuclear fuel will suspend theirs and let their relevant facilities be inspected..........................

``Otherwise, we do not find it necessary to suspend our uranium enrichment and consider the call for it as unfair and will continue to reject it,``..........................

``However, given that we do not merely defend our own nation, we wish to feel the presence of our allies, including Indonesia as one of our closest friends,`` he added.

#102 by echoboom/#103 by masadi/#111 by HP

echoboom, thanks for this post. I had not known the contents of the letter before this.

This letter, in my opinion, is a carefully thought out strategy. As HP in his excellant analysis vide # 103 pointed out, Iranians are no novices at diplomacy. Though I would add they are no novices militarily either. Masadi, wrongly, discounts the letter altogether terming Ahemidinejad to be Naive.

Is Ahmedinijad naive? The events since the nuke crisis broke out suggest quite the opposite. He escalated the hostile rhetoric step-by-step knowing if US did the same, it could not carry out the attack threat and would lose face. Thus, US could do nothing and backed off trying to win support which wasn`t forthcoming either with Russia and China chosing the opposing camp, even for a mandatory security council resolution for sanctions .. let alone military action. As it stands now, US has painted itself into a corner, and Iran will likely go ahead to enrich as much uranium as it wants and for whatever purpose it wants.

The letter, is a carefully timed next step. Once both the unipolar hegemonic bullying as well as the diplomatic attempts to collect support by US had failed, it was time to make a gesture which (1) softens Iran`s perception in the west of an intransigent Mullah; and (2) expresses global inequities in everyday terms so that it appeals to the common man. These are the things that everyone talks about but no Head of State has, in recent memory, stated directly without mincing words. The passage on Africa appears to have been carefully included to avoid any perception of ethnicism while at the same time reiterating his statements re the validity of the holocaust as well as existance of Israel. A general statement i.e. ``The people are protesting the increasing gap between the haves and the have-nots and the rich and poor countries.`` has been emphatically placed as a seperate para.

The many references to Jesus are there for the purpose of appealing to the bible-belt neo-cons, while Muhammad is not mentioned at all to avoid comparisons.

The ending is quite brilliant:

``My question for you is: ``Do you not want to join them?``

Mr. President, Whether we like it or not, the world is gravitating towards faith in the Almighty and justice and the will of God will prevail over all things.

These paras are almost ticklish/teasing. On the one hand he avoids Islamic rhetoric by stressing on all faiths, and on the other hand he draws obvious reference to the early Islamic way of writing letters to heads of opposing empires to accept Islam `or` be ready for war. This is right up the alley with the Jihadis too!

This Amedinijad, quite honestly, looks like a nerd ... but he obviously isn`t one. He is something else judging by this letter. US will be extremely hard put in both cases of either responding to or rejecting this letter, simply because what is stated therein is the truth and everyone knows that. It seems there isn`t an official response yet.

But anil ji, you surely have known many more Iranians than I ever will. Do you think that the progressivism of Iranian society can be replicated in any other Islamic country?

Re: # 107

Masadi Sahib:

``Anil >>>

.... if you want to define that as ``extreme`` so be it.... ``

I thank you for it.

Masadi Sahib, I do not think you really meant to give me so much freedom to define ``extreme``. Otherwise you know my answer that you must also accept. I honestly thank you for giving me the freedom to define.

Extreme, as you know, is a very subjective perception and not the truth (if anyone knows what the real truth is, the person in my buddist thinking has attained Nirvana).. Please don`t try to tell me the truth will be found only in Islam. To each something is extreme and not to others.

I respect your views just because of this firm belief of mine.

I for one is not a religionist. I gave up the most wonderful things, lovable relationship and friendship in life, because I stood by that human knowledge and values are beyond religious boundaries.

Coming to reality, from Khomeini, Rafsanjani, to Ahmadenejad is democracy in evolution in Islamic worl. Please respect it as voice of the people. In your life time, the world will respect it too. And never OBL, whether muslims and Islam accepts him or rejects him or his ilk. Iranian democracy probably wil be the hope of peaceful Islam. Please be patient and you will see the effect this man`s letter will have in silencing millions of guns, and bunker burster, blanket bombings etc.. Iran may produce the first democracy in muslim world, and not the U.S. in the Iraq, or Pakistan.

How long will it take the west to dump Pakistan, if it can have a working relationship and peaceful co-existance with Iran?

For some other day I wpuld leave that there is not third world. There is only one world. Let market forces make the world realize it.

Thank you,
Anil

Re: # 112
{{{{Iran may produce the first democracy in muslim world, and not the U.S. in the Iraq, or Pakistan. }}}}}

Anil,
Although i had mocked at the letter in an ealier post, I share your sentiments about the Iranian society.

The true enemies of US are Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. US has misplaced priorities.

regards,

#103 by masadi

“Ahmedinejad has no clue about how things work in the US and its political establishment. Here, economic forces much more than any religious motivation drives decisions and keeps them uniform. He is living in his dream world and using rhetoric that serves as fuel for these sob US elite criminals to justify their many perversions.”

Asadi,
I think you are looking at it with an emotional pov. There is a clear rationale behind Ahmedinejad’s letter. Before I come to it, I should say that I don’t underestimate Iranian diplomats. They are not new to this world of diplomatic maneuverings. Pretty much the same group has control over the Iranian diplomacy for the last 25-26 years and they have consistently been able to put a better foot forward despite hostility from all US governments.

Ahmedinejad is not an individual like Saddam Hussein was. True, we can dispute his election and possibly claim that he was not democratically elected but his support group is in power for a long time and he does not control all facets of power in Iran. So, whatever he or his diplomats put out, is a part of a well thought out strategy. We may find holes in that strategy or may not agree with the rationale behind it but it is a collective Iranian effort and he is just the primary spokesman for the regime.

When you pull him up individually for his actions, you are pretty much following what Iran and the US both lead you to believe. The US needs another Saddam to be portrayed as Hitler and the Irani regime understands that. They too feel that it would be easier to sacrifice him at some point of time, if the need for a patch up with the US becomes imperative.

Before looking at the letter, let me run another idea by you here.

The heightened alarms over war lead to higher Oil prices. Now tell me who benefits from the higher Oil prices: the Oil exporters that include Iran and the US Oil companies and who suffers the most: China, Europe and the other emerging economies. The US still has a very good margin in the domestic oil prices but other countries are pretty much running on empty. So the higher oil prices have short term gains for both the US and Iran. It helps the US to intimidate its own allies whereas Iran keeps pressure on it own supporters while still enjoying the high prices. So both parties are milking the situation for their own ends.

The gambit lies in whether the US would be able to deliver an incapacitating blow to Iran in the coming months or not. The Irani game is that the US lacks the ability to cripple the Irani government. The US is unsure whether it can bring the Irani government down though it does have the capability. It is a tightrope but Iranians I think, have become very good in playing this game.

Now look at the letter. The Iranians know that the US would reject the letter because it is a part of the propaganda war. The audience that Iran is trying to reach is not the US but the Muslim countries and I think the letter would help the Iranians in the Middle East and the other Muslim countries.

Half the war is winning the media. The US is winning that war in its own country but internationally, it is losing the public opinion battle. With a failure in Iraq, the attack on Iran becomes even more difficult for the US and on top of that Iranians come back with their own propaganda tools such as the letter. It is a strategy that that bhoondoo bux Saddam never used.

I think it is a good strategy. You just can’t wait for the US to attack you. Instead you keep on putting the ball in the US court to make sure it has to play some defensive strokes.

If the internal US situation worsens, and it fails to attack Iran or the US makes a feeble attempt, the Iranians can claim victory and go on their merry way while the internal crisis carries the US to a bitter confrontation internally.

RE: #100 by bharath Wrote
``RE# 87 RAS
{{{{..... His remark on India was not off the mark.

Pakistan is just as bad}}}}}}

PAKISTAN IS JUST AS BAD?

We should have discussions here in true democratic spirit. But the above HUMBUG/HYPOCRITICAL statment of the author should not go unchallenged.
I`ll have to repost one of my earlier postings:``


Chill out bharath,

I was only pointing to mob violence as a similar predictable reaction

in both India and Pakistan. Not the institutional apparatus put in place.

In Pakistan, mobs attacked and tried to destroy Hindu Temples that had

not been used in years after the Babri Masjid demolition.

It just goes to prove that people on both sides of the border can be

idiots. In this they are quite similar.

Anil, thanks once again for your words of wisdom. I just could not

make it to TiEcon this year but hope to do so next time.


I am all for moderation in religion.

We do not have to re-invent the wheel.

We were all Muslims before the Afghan war and the Iranian

Revolution. We have to be good human beings and share this

planet that we all inhabit.


Ras

I call Muqtedar Khan a liberal Islamist

I wonder why you people do not take notice of the greatest and the most hot gap today - the gap between the `Aashiqane Rasool` and the `Blashemers`? The `live` body (I cannot call it dead as it is the body of a shaheed) of Aamir Cheema `Shaheed` has come from Germany but the Paky political and power Mafia is at a loss how to dispose it off. It seems to them to be more powerful than a suicide bomber.

What the immigrants, especially the Muslims in the West, are likely to face as a reaction to the zeal shown by Aashiqane Rasool is yet to be seen.

#106 anil writes <<< Do you think your extreme views about the U.S. is the correct way to deal with the U.S.?

Please be brief and no obscene or angry words, thank you.

Anil >>>

Firstly my views about the US are not ``extreme``. I do condemn the US elite for their policies or lack thereof, if you want to define that as ``extreme`` so be it. That part of my ``extremism`` (by your definition) is to understand the problem. You cannot understand the problems by masking the facts in feel-good rhetoric. Recognizing the problem and its causes is the first step towards effective solutions. Ahmadenejad has no concept of the problems and hense no concept of a solution, he has pulled a rabbit out of his hat and feels that this magic act will somehow take care of everything. Things don`t work in that fashion in this world or I`d recommend setting up a rabbit pulling factory on every other city block all over the third world.

# 103 Masadi

You are absolutely right that he is exposing his folks to severe danger. If he or other Islamic leaders truly want to get bigger slice of economic pie for their folks, and not just for themselves, they should learn from Japanese, Chinese and Indian leadership, in that order.

They will have to learn to talk less, think intelligently like chess players and focus on education rather than meaningless rhetoric.

Yeah... Bush is the evil person ... Ahmedinajad is the savior of the world.
Lunatic ramblings .....not surprisingly admired by
some fanatic loonatics.

Let us talk about Darfur where people of
the religion of pece is indulging in some glorious Islamic
activities...............
The picture fits well with how Islamists live peacefully
with Paris Christians, Thai Buddhists, Hindoos, Jews, Atheists,
and just above every one else under the sun.


http://www.darfurgenocide.org/


The Sudanese Government, using Arab ``Janjaweed`` militias, its air force, and organized starvation, is systematically killing the black Sudanese of Darfur.

The picture of the boy killed (left) shows what is happening in Darfur. Over two and a half million people, driven from their homes, now face death from starvation and disease as the Government and militias attempt to prevent humanitarian aid from reaching them. The same forces have destroyed the people of Darfur`s villages and crops, and poisoned their water supplies, and they continue to murder, rape and terrorize.

This site`s sole purpose is to try to save lives by helping stop the genocide in Darfur.

It empowers you to take smart, strategic actions to compel those in power to act through international petitions or local events. It provides access to the best, most relevant and most upto date information available. You can also give online to our Advocacy Fund.

The situation in Darfur is dire............