The Gap: Can the USA and Islam Bridge It?

Re: # 107

Masadi Sahib:

``Anil >>>

.... if you want to define that as ``extreme`` so be it.... ``

I thank you for it.

Masadi Sahib, I do not think you really meant to give me so much freedom to define ``extreme``. Otherwise you know my answer that you must also accept. I honestly thank you for giving me the freedom to define.

Extreme, as you know, is a very subjective perception and not the truth (if anyone knows what the real truth is, the person in my buddist thinking has attained Nirvana).. Please don`t try to tell me the truth will be found only in Islam. To each something is extreme and not to others.

I respect your views just because of this firm belief of mine.

I for one is not a religionist. I gave up the most wonderful things, lovable relationship and friendship in life, because I stood by that human knowledge and values are beyond religious boundaries.

Coming to reality, from Khomeini, Rafsanjani, to Ahmadenejad is democracy in evolution in Islamic worl. Please respect it as voice of the people. In your life time, the world will respect it too. And never OBL, whether muslims and Islam accepts him or rejects him or his ilk. Iranian democracy probably wil be the hope of peaceful Islam. Please be patient and you will see the effect this man`s letter will have in silencing millions of guns, and bunker burster, blanket bombings etc.. Iran may produce the first democracy in muslim world, and not the U.S. in the Iraq, or Pakistan.

How long will it take the west to dump Pakistan, if it can have a working relationship and peaceful co-existance with Iran?

For some other day I wpuld leave that there is not third world. There is only one world. Let market forces make the world realize it.

Thank you,
Anil

But anil ji, you surely have known many more Iranians than I ever will. Do you think that the progressivism of Iranian society can be replicated in any other Islamic country?

#102 by echoboom/#103 by masadi/#111 by HP

echoboom, thanks for this post. I had not known the contents of the letter before this.

This letter, in my opinion, is a carefully thought out strategy. As HP in his excellant analysis vide # 103 pointed out, Iranians are no novices at diplomacy. Though I would add they are no novices militarily either. Masadi, wrongly, discounts the letter altogether terming Ahemidinejad to be Naive.

Is Ahmedinijad naive? The events since the nuke crisis broke out suggest quite the opposite. He escalated the hostile rhetoric step-by-step knowing if US did the same, it could not carry out the attack threat and would lose face. Thus, US could do nothing and backed off trying to win support which wasn`t forthcoming either with Russia and China chosing the opposing camp, even for a mandatory security council resolution for sanctions .. let alone military action. As it stands now, US has painted itself into a corner, and Iran will likely go ahead to enrich as much uranium as it wants and for whatever purpose it wants.

The letter, is a carefully timed next step. Once both the unipolar hegemonic bullying as well as the diplomatic attempts to collect support by US had failed, it was time to make a gesture which (1) softens Iran`s perception in the west of an intransigent Mullah; and (2) expresses global inequities in everyday terms so that it appeals to the common man. These are the things that everyone talks about but no Head of State has, in recent memory, stated directly without mincing words. The passage on Africa appears to have been carefully included to avoid any perception of ethnicism while at the same time reiterating his statements re the validity of the holocaust as well as existance of Israel. A general statement i.e. ``The people are protesting the increasing gap between the haves and the have-nots and the rich and poor countries.`` has been emphatically placed as a seperate para.

The many references to Jesus are there for the purpose of appealing to the bible-belt neo-cons, while Muhammad is not mentioned at all to avoid comparisons.

The ending is quite brilliant:

``My question for you is: ``Do you not want to join them?``

Mr. President, Whether we like it or not, the world is gravitating towards faith in the Almighty and justice and the will of God will prevail over all things.

These paras are almost ticklish/teasing. On the one hand he avoids Islamic rhetoric by stressing on all faiths, and on the other hand he draws obvious reference to the early Islamic way of writing letters to heads of opposing empires to accept Islam `or` be ready for war. This is right up the alley with the Jihadis too!

This Amedinijad, quite honestly, looks like a nerd ... but he obviously isn`t one. He is something else judging by this letter. US will be extremely hard put in both cases of either responding to or rejecting this letter, simply because what is stated therein is the truth and everyone knows that. It seems there isn`t an official response yet.

Full text
Iran letter to Bush was invitation to Islam: President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad



LONDON, May 12 (IranMania) - Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said that his letter to President George W Bush did not concern the nuclear dossier, but rather was an invitation to Islam and the prophets culture, IRNA reported.

.....

Stressing that the letter was beyond the nuclear issue, the chief executive said that in principle, the country`s nuclear case is not so significant to make him write a letter about it.
``We act according to laws and our activities are quite clear. We are rather intent on solving more fundamental global matters.
...``The letter was an invitation to monotheism and justice, which are common to all divine prophets. If the call is responded positively, there will be no more problems to be solved,`` added the president.
...............

``We hold talks with our allies, such as Indonesia, quite smoothly. However those intending to speak to us with authority should attempt to change their attitude,`` he added.

About the possibility of military attack on Iran, he said that psychological war is quite likely and expressed his doubt about the military option.
.............
In response to a question about suspension of enrichment, the president said that Iran will agree to suspend the process only if all those having access to nuclear fuel will suspend theirs and let their relevant facilities be inspected..........................

``Otherwise, we do not find it necessary to suspend our uranium enrichment and consider the call for it as unfair and will continue to reject it,``..........................

``However, given that we do not merely defend our own nation, we wish to feel the presence of our allies, including Indonesia as one of our closest friends,`` he added.

Re: # 112
{{{{Iran may produce the first democracy in muslim world, and not the U.S. in the Iraq, or Pakistan. }}}}}

Anil,
Although i had mocked at the letter in an ealier post, I share your sentiments about the Iranian society.

The true enemies of US are Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. US has misplaced priorities.

regards,

Americans and Muslims are Bhai-Bhai. Except US wanted to bomb Afghanistan back to stone age and it also wanted to get rid of Iraqi dictator on suspicion of having possessed WMDs. Except that there were no WMDs. Crusades never really stopped. No matter what some deluded Muslim might like to think. Either Islam changes or it goes. Sau Baat Kee Ekk Baat.

A Muslim American Tale

Long, long ago, in a faraway place called the golden land, a bunch of Pakistani fat cats with time on hand got together - dragging a few non-Pakistani fat cats along - where they discussed at length the demerits of an evil black cat somewhere ``out there``. It was not that they had been unaware of the bad cat before, but they had always found it was far easier to ignore the evil black cat rather than to face up to it. Besides, there was a certain degree of ambivalence because it was unclear whether the evil cat was on ``their`` side - and there was the fear of being branded a non-cat which carried a cat death penalty.

A lot of meowing took place.

The fat cats had a difficult time dissociating themselves from the evil black cat which was doing a lot of damage to the image of cats in general and fat cats in particular. It was unanimously concluded that it was in general a good idea to bell that evil black cat.

End of story.

Sequeal:

One of the fat cats liked food. He went home and cooked up something using what he gathered in the gathering.

#111 HP writes <<< Asadi,
I think you are looking at it with an emotional pov. There is a clear rationale behind Ahmedinejad’s letter. Before I come to it, I should say that I don’t underestimate Iranian diplomats. They are not new to this world of diplomatic maneuverings. Pretty much the same group has control over the Iranian diplomacy for the last 25-26 years and they have consistently been able to put a better foot forward despite hostility from all US governments. >>>

HP sahib that guy is an idiot. The US brought him to power by consolidating public opinion in Iran around the nuclear issue which happened to be his main point of no compromise. The US is using him, I know that, and to the detriment of the people in his country, that was all my post and conclusion were about. The wording of his letter shows extreme naivety on how things work in the US. His letter which is full of religious references and well know arguments against US foreign policy, when taken in the context of his previous rhetoric will be used by the US elite at will to bolster domestic support for whatever they do with Iran in the future. This guy seems just as naively idiotic to me as UBL but in a position to do much greater harm in the region, to his own people, than UBL can ever achieve.

They have been able to ``put a better foot forward`` only because what they wanted coincided with what the US elite were desiring at the time. You are correct about oil prices. Such confrontations, projected towards the future, as threat, are good for profit maximization of US corporations, like C. W. Mills said, they have become for the corporations, ``the business way of American life``. These ayatollahs sided with the British and the Americans when they got rid of Mossadeq, when the shah got too powerful they once again conspired with them for a transfer of power, when the reformists were getting popular they brought up the nuclear issue to consolidate the power of the clergy. It is merely a cat and mouse game where the opponents are not actual opponents at all (in my opinion). The mullahs and the US elite are bedfellows.

The letter while it might help the Iranian president (not their government) with the masses in the Middle East will do next to nothing to bolster their support with the governments of those countries. What is happening in Iraq does not help its cause with Middle Eastern countries as well. I do not think this was a planned diplomatic move on the part of Ahmadinejad. If the idiot was so ``diplomatic`` he wouldn`t have used his other nonsense rhetoric earlier knowing full well that the western media that doominates global media would pick up parts they could use for their own benefit. If he feels this rhetoric will help Iran attain hegemony in the Middle East, he is also naively mistaken.

The State Department official at this event will be the guest of Omar Khan on GEO TV`s

Jaiza program tomorrow (Sunday).......


Interview with Mr. Rob Tappan, A U.S. State Dept. Official working for Under Secretary Karen Hughes and Secretary of State Condeleeza Rice.



- Global perceptions of the U.S. foreign policy

- How does the administration rate the progress in Iraq/Afghanistan

- Pakistan`s Role - Why is the U.S. a fair weather friend?

- Pakistan vs. India - The changing relationship

- Al Jazeera Network vs. Fox

- Muslim Americans - Tired of profiling - Need Answers



Sunday 12:05 p.m. Pacific 3:05 p.m. Eastern

Monday 10:30 p.m. Pacific

Friday 5:05 p.m. Eastern

Channel 620 GEO TV on Dish Network



P.S: GEO programming subject to change at the last minute due to changing news events or specials



Regards,

Jaiza Team

Can anybody please tell me about the contents of the letter written to the government of Germany by Aamir Cheema who committed suicide in a jail in Germany recently after his failed attempt to kill the editor of the German paper publishing the Danish Cartoons? I wonder why so much secrecy is being observed in this case.

Re: # 120
Here are more topics for GEOTV discussion tomorrow:

....Continuing Paki terrorism in South Asia

.....Global perceptions on Paki terrorism

`````` the hilarious joke of calling Paki an ally of US

and


HERE IS AN ASSESSMENT OF CURRENT PAKI TERROR STRATEGY:


http://www.saag.org/papers18/paper1797.html


23. Pakistan has been following a multi-pronged strategy in its contribution to the international community`s fight against jihadi terrorism emanating from its territory:

First, vigorous action against Al Qaeda elements identified by the US and non-action against those, who have not come to the notice of the US.

Second, non-action to trace and capture or kill Osama bin Laden.

Third, closing its eyes to the activities of the Taliban from its territory.

Four, continued assistance, instigation and use of the jihadi terrorists operating against India, while ostensibly banning their activities in response to US pressure. de jure, they are illegal organisations, but de facto, they are the treasured assets of Pakistan`s military and intelligence establishments.


24. This has been the assessment of India. This seems to be the assessment of the Hamid Karzai Government of Kabul too as well as of a growing section of independent analysts even in the US.

............

#119 by masadi

“The US brought him to power by consolidating public opinion in Iran around the nuclear issue which happened to be his main point of no compromise.”

So the US indirectly helped him come to power. That must be a circuitry route thru the heart of Qum. You see the nuke issue helps both parties so it will stay whether it is thru him or any other source. How much influence he wields? It is not more than the grand Imam or the grand council. If he does not have more power than them, then he is just a useful idiot which both (US and Mullah) could use. So the indirect credit to the US is a long shot but the direct beneficiaries are the people who brought him to the power.

The power structure in Iran is such that it is not possible for him to say things he is not authorized to say. He is doing his thing with full approval from the Grand Council and the confrontation with the US is in the council’s interest too.
The guy may be idiot but he is shilling for people behind him. He is not solely responsible for his statements.

“These ayatollahs sided with the British and the Americans when they got rid of Mossadeq, when the shah got too powerful they once again conspired with them for a transfer of power”

That is correct but why do you think they are still allies? Political and national alliances are formed and dropped when situation changes. They may have cooperated with the US or the Brits in 1953 but now they don’t need to. I agree that they are not people’s reps so they will do what is in their best interest and if that means being friends with the US in future, they will do that too.

“It is merely a cat and mouse game where the opponents are not actual opponents at all (in my opinion). The mullahs and the US elite are bedfellows.”

I kind of agree that this conflict is fake and totally manufactured and both sides would continue to escalate the conflict until one is completely suckered into it. Who would be the eventual loser we don’t know yet. Ideologically they are close, if not exactly the bedfellows.

#119 by masadi

The wording of his letter shows extreme naivety on how things work in the US.

Masadi, who gives a flying fcuk how things work in the US. This is about Islam. It has nothing to do with how US or anyone else operates. This is about how `we` operate. Including Osama Bin Laden whom you keep knocking for no reason. Where is he anyway? And what role did he play in `terror` ?

Islam is a radically different system and cannot be compared with anyone else.

Islam states that `All land belongs to Allah`. All `wealth` belongs to Allah`. Nothing belongs to anyone else. If Allah bestows wealth on anyone, it is his `duty` to distribute in the `way` of Allah. Allah bestowed it all and Allah can take it away.

That is the simple solution to all economic problems. When possessions become your own to keep and multiply, that creates chaos and disorder. When you believe it is bestowed, you gain a sense of responsibility to distribute.

This was said 1400 years ago and was always valid. This is the only way to go as a belief system.

You, Sir, are discrediting Islam by your meaningless rhetoric and creating enemies of Islam while it is a totally rational system. I carefully say `system` because I don`t give a damn about `religions`, I only stress on `systems`.

Re: #124 by zeemax

You know, zeemax, I have always thought that you are very different from the rest of the Chowk posters. I was impressed the first time I read a post from you with your analysis of Islam. It was objective and precise. And then you confirmed this in my mind once again when one day I saw you quote Somerset Maugham`s ``The Summing Up`` - ``the only thing that you can be sure about is that you cannot be sure about anything``. That used to be one of my favorite quotes. To have read that book and noticed that quote indicates a thinking and inquisitive mind.

The remarkable thing about your posts about Islam is that you cut through all the bullshit to the heart of the issue. Like anyone who has read the Islamic doctrine objectively, you have realized what Islam is at its core - a socio-political movement that seeks to eliminate all else. And yes, I agree that it ``cannot be compared with anyone else``. Even Stalinism fell with the death of the leader. But with Islam, the unseen hand of your prophet is at the throat of every follower 1400 years after his death. It is quite remarkable. Every cult seeks to silence critics and intellectuals through fear and intimidation. In the Stalinist era, nobody dared to whisper anything bad about Stalin or Stalinism - some party worker might
overhear! Public defiance is punished. Public

Look at Mohammed Gill and his attempts to criticize Islam. For every line of criticism, he has to vouch for his allegiance to ``The Cause`` with three lines of praise, often contradicting himself in the process. In what other religion do people live in such constant fear? The one or two Muslims who do criticize openly live in the US, out of reach of the ``party workers`` for all practical purposes.

There IS freedom in Islam - freedom to enlist, or die. Either violently, or through slow, inexorable attrition.

You do have your limitations, though. For someone who agrees with ``the only thing that you can be sure about is that you cannot be sure about anything``, you seem very sure of your facts when you say ``This is the only way to go as a belief system``. Yes, it might be the only way to go if ``might is right``, and Islam eventually devours all else. But you cannot possibly KNOW that Islam will devour all else.

Also, if you subscribe to the ``might is right`` theory, then would you say that if someone is stronger than you then he has a ``right``, for example, to rob you of your money whenever they want, or slap you around whenever he feels like it? That is a barbaric vision, incompatible with humanity. Might is NOT right, my friend, although in a myopic vision, it might seem that way.

Humanity will one day overcome Islam, not because I am sure about that, but because it must. It`s either that, or eternal slavery (obedience) of the mind for all humankind. The battlelines are drawn (although liberals and Islamic apologists try to blur the lines), the choices are clear.

Let humanity prevail.

``Islam states that `All land belongs to Allah`. All `wealth` belongs to Allah`. Nothing belongs to anyone else. If Allah bestows wealth on anyone, it is his `duty` to distribute in the `way` of Allah. Allah bestowed it all and Allah can take it away. ``

---

Indeed. Allah is the ultimate tyrant.

Re: # 125
{{{{{{{Humanity will one day overcome Islam, not because I am sure about that, but because it must. It`s either that, or eternal slavery (obedience) of the mind for all humankind. The battlelines are drawn (although liberals and Islamic apologists try to blur the lines), the choices are clear.

Let humanity prevail. }}}}}

Beautiful. Eloquent. Well said. Especially the one about ``liberals`` blurring the lines.


As some one posted earlier here an illiterate who blows himself up is a Sufi saint, compared to the charlatans here and Muqtedar Khan- the real enemies that humanity must overcome. Remember we are all muslims ....we are just lost ... we have the option of ``realizing`` this folly.... and reverting to Islam.

It is amusing to see them condemning Osama...