The Gap: Can the USA and Islam Bridge It?

Can USA and Christianity/Hinduism/Jainism/Buddhism/Shintoism etc etc. bridge it?

All this talk about `bridging gap` is nonsense. The only gap that needs to be bridged is by these PAkistani muslims who take their TNT along whereever they go and spread hatred while enjoying the fruits of the Western world.

Why should a liberal state like US think about getting into a dialogue with religious heads.........................you mean to say should US government talk to the religious goons and impose Shariat based laws or Manu Smriti based laws or some ancient religious tradition on its citizens?

This question is stupid and actually exposes the grand communal designs of these Pakistani infested associations like the United Muslims of America (UMA). These associations have only one aim of dumbing the liberal muslims from realizing the evils of political Islam that the TNT mongers from Pakistan practise wherever they go............it aims at hiding the camouflaging the role of these `educated` Pakistanis who, in the name of religious piety, provide the real intellectual and financial leadership to the political Islam................

Dear Writer,

What was the purpose of this article? Quite meaningless, if reporting events is the objective then it was a total waste of time and space.

Dear Muslim Writer,

This article is just another useless attempt to unite all American Muslims together on the same platform for their protection from Americans and American Govt...................Look at these senseless sentences uttered by some naive and ignorant fanatics who in their ignorance are trying to fill up some unknown GAP...............hahahahah

{{{{“American Muslims have become too full of themselves,” he said. He attributed this to the tolerance of Americans and added that if a 9/11 type event happened in India, thousands of Muslims would have been slaughtered. ``The biggest threat to American Muslims is another attack,” he said. }}}}}}

{{{And as for another 9/11, American Muslims know that we have to do all that we can to stop any such horrific act from impacting anyone`s life again.
United Muslims of America (UMA) }}}

Let me ask you who are Americans? Who are Muslims? Who are these self appointed organizations working aimlessly and pointlessly?

Let me remind you , America is an immigrant country, it is not a colony or monarchy.
America is based upon freedom for all humans equally without any thing to do with any religion. And that is the beauty of it.

We immigrated to America. Why? B/c of this diversity and beauty with rainbow colors which are at equal wavelength with equal distance without dominance of any one color.

There is no such term as who is American and who is not? All American citizens are Americans regardless of color, creed, region, religion and gender.

In America all Americans keep their religions to themselves, for them religion is their personal issue, they don`t advertise their religions to everyone they meet and make themselves a laughable material for others......................

Except Muslims (Not all) by saying,``hi, listen Tom, I am Muslim, hey, listen Barbara, I am Muslim, Do you know I am Muslim? ``

``Hey, American people listen, I am Muslim, I am not terrorist, I didn`t do anything in 9/11. Please, don`t blame me. I am a good Muslim, though I am a Muslim, don`t kill me, I am innocent, I apologize for others.``

You are great, please let me live in this great country of yours, Oh, you nation of great Americans, I will never utter a word of disrespect for you. I will always be apologetic. No matter what, I will bow down infront of you mighty gods. I am trying to fill all these invisible bridges, so that may be you Americans and we Muslims can cross these invisible bridges and find our ways either parallel or closer with each other, not in an opposite direction,b/c we are your slaves, have mercy on us, miserable humans on this mother Earth.

``Hi, Tracy, Linda, Tammy, Gina, Lina, Elizabith, Lisa, blah,blah,blah, we Muslims love to fill the GAPS between you Americans and us, b/c we wish to be ONE. So, that all the world should see us as One body and mind............``

Speaking about GAP, there are some dumb, idiotic, moronish so, called Muslim Organizations trying their idiotic propaganda`s to cross some unknown BRIDGES or invisible GAPS between them and Americans............utter rubbish

What exactly are the Gaps? I do not see any gap. Who made this gap? I did not make any gap. Then why I should cross the bridge or fill the gap? I see majority of sensible Muslims who are much more nice humans, who are as Americans as any American can be without advertising their religion to every one they meet. They don`t carry this badge of identity to cover their insecurities................

UMA and other organizations like crossing the bridges always call my home phone to insist me to join them . I always ask them,`` what is your agenda?`` Why you persistently after me and why you want me to join your organization?``

Their answer is always like,`` We want all Muslims to gather on the same platform to cross the bridges and fill the gap between Americans and Us, so that they should recognize us not as terrorists but as peaceful Muslims. You should join us and attend all our meetings.``

I always end up by saying,`` Listen, don`t waste my time and yours as well. We do not need any recognition. We are as Americans as anyone could be. We do not need to advertise ourselves that we are Muslims and we are guilty of terrorist attacks, please, forgive us.
Why should I do that? First of all I am not guilty of anything. Nobody is asking me what is my religion? Nobody is discriminating me for being whatever.``

Now, you wish me to join you and be apologetic and be an idiot to advertise myself to the whole wide world to look at me with surprise for mockery and for saying, `` I am crazy or lunatic.``

I am myself and same is with other majority sensible Muslims who have nothing to do with any 9/11 attacks or any terrorism. Why should we feel guilty? Why would we be apologetic?
Why should we feel insecure if we are no different from any other American?

Why should we need any stupid organization which serves no purpose?

Why do we need such useless organization? They have no purpose but to expose themselves being labeled as terrorists. Aren`t they stupid?

What is this ,`` American Muslim Dialogue?``
Majority of Muslims are not radical or fanatic. Why we need such radical Islamic organization?

Yes, I am Muslim no doubt about it. But, being American is my identity. Not being Muslim.

Being Muslim is my private and personal choice for my own soul. I cannot carry that idiotic badge of some religious identity in my neck to be recognized as such. I don`t need any pseudo recognition, while my recognition is already made. Yes, I am American with Pakistani background ........This is the only recognition I need for myself. No one asks me about my ethnicity, about my religion or my private life. Unless I tell them myself that I am Pakistani or Muslim, which I don`t.

When we live in Pakistan, do we introduce ourselves as Muslims? No, we don`t, then why all of a sudden these idiotic organizations start brainwashing Muslims in America to gather under some Muslim flag to fill up the gap between Americans.

I always tell my colleagues, you know I want to fill a big GAP between you (American and me). Do you see any GAP? Do you see any BRIDGE for me to cross to fill up this GAP or HOLE? They always think I am going BONKERS. They think I am talking about VERIZANO bridge to go to Manhattan.

When I explain the whole organization issue, they always end up laughing. Their responses are very normal by saying,`` Babe, you don`t need any bridges to cross to fill up any gaps, you are already closer to our hearts just by being AMERICAN. Darling, you don`t need any identity or recognition, you are one of us. All of us are Americans under one flag of America and that is the beauty of this diverse immigrant country...................

Yes, these stupid organizations need recognition in Pakistan, India and blah,blah,balh where they are not respected as being individuals but where they are respectful only if they have A NAME with religious identity, being Muslim, Hindu blah,blah,blah...........

On side note:-

It is proven without any shadow of doubt that all humans influencing or interacting with eachother on this planet Earth need NO religion. Only good religion for recognition is NO religion. Yes, religion is good as long as you keep it to yourself.

Re: # # & 4

...Bravo!! Zeena............this time you get my applause!!!

Re: # 4

`religion is good as long as you keep it to yourself`

this u can say about any religion but islam. Islam was not revealed on human beings to keep it to themselves. Islam is a system given to human beings by Allah(s.w.t) so they implement it in their OWN LIVES as well as in the SOCIETY. Establishing a society which has the laws of the sharia implemented in all walks of life is a farz on every muslim just as namaz and saum are farz.

I am not saying that muslims should start a struggle or JIHAD trying to implement islam in the american society. Where such a society should be established is a seperate discussion.

Re: # 3

I believe the theme of your interaction is summarized as follows:

``I am Muslim no doubt about it. But, being American is my identity. Not being Muslim. ``

I PARTIALLY AGREE.
Being american is one of your identities, perhaps a major one but being muslims is also your identity.

and why do you need to identify yourselves as muslims? It is because in a democratic system, the opinions of its populace matter. In america`s case the opinions matter a whole lot more, cause the US is the police of the world. The decision she makes effect the entire world.

so why do you need to identify yourself as a muslim, it is to show to the american populace that the only muslims in the world are not those cowardly terrorists who blow themselves up or butcher non-muslims` heads off. common average normal people like you are muslims as well.

that is the gap which needs to be bridged. the gap worse than the gap of ignorance, the gap of a misinformed people. that is why you need to identify yourself as a muslim as well.

ofcourse you have the complete and absolute right of not giving a damn about bridging ``THE GAP``, and thats your personal choice.

UMA is exercising thier own choice, one which they are equally entitled to.

Re: # 3
You go girl...;)

Re: # 4
Yeah...well said Zeena. We dont need all this hatred in this world based upon religious differences. Unfortunately, too much damage has already been done.

Ballu

Yaar does everything have to come back to your own spin of TNT?

My own experience in the US is the following:

1- Pakistanis from pakistan were way more liberal and open minded than Pakistanis and Muslims living in the US. Also a general rule these migrant Pakistanis would be part of political organisations like AMA or UMA and not ISNA or ICNA... On campus you would see Pakistanis as part of Pakistani Students Association etc and would show case Pakistan with dance parties and fashion shows etc. By contrast other organisations tended to be much more conservative.

2- Indian Muslims- both from India and those in the US- were largely very religious folk who tended to get along more with Arabs etc ... they were far more exclusive than Pakistanis... and also - and this the irony- they hated Pakistan almost as much as they hated Hindus.

This is my experience having lived in the hub of South Asian communities of New Jersey.

-YLH

Re: # 3 Zeena

Wow!!! How well you write! And how neatly and succinctly (spelling?) you demolished this religious identity thing!

And in next post, you say No religion is the best religion. I fully agree. It is best that we keep our religion to ourselves, within the boundaries of our homes, temples, mosques. Nobody could put it better than you.

Ras saheb:

I am perplexed by the title - Islam is a religion and USA a country, so wouldn`t it make more sense to ask whether Islam and Christianity/Judaism/Buddhism can bridge the gap; or alternatively, can Muslims be good Americans?

As a non-muslim who considers himself a humanist, I am ready to defend the right of every Muslim in this country, whether he or she is shia, sunni, ahmedia or just a cultural muslim. But I (and others like me) have no interest in defending Islam, nor do I have any interest in defending Hinduism, Christianity, Sikhism and Judaism. I think that this task should be left to the Mullahs, Pundits, Priests, Bhais, Rabbis or other thekedars of religions.

The distinction is important - most vocal Muslims have tended to defend their relgion rather than their rights as individual citizens - they talk about how Islam is the religion of peace and tolerance and OBL and his followers are not true Muslims, instead of insisting of simply demanding their right as Americans. Jews have succeeded in getting the sympathy of the world not by complaining that the world is against their religion but by complaining that they have suffered due to anti-semitism.

Imagine Muslims thugs had repeatedly invaded America for thousand years, destroyed
churches and built mosques in their places, converted populations by force, zizya etc,
then split the western part of US claiming Christians would discriminate agains Muslims
when not in absolute helm of US, claiming they are part of Columbia civilization and
not Mississipi civilization exterminating christian population in that area, tried to foment
insurgency in Utah claiming it is unfinished business of some strange thing, then driven
planes into WTC on 9/11.
Wonder what would have been reaction of Americans to 9/11 attacks.

Re: # 13

Based on your theory there would be no americans left by then, so your question is irrelevant.

Strings will be playing in Oakland on June 4th!!!!!
ZINDA TOUR is almost here on the West Coast.
I`ll try and get the details on to the CHOWK Calender
if it is not there already.


For this report with pictures please visit

http://www.pakistanlink.com/Community/2006/May06/05/01.HTM



Now on the point of this writing: It is the job of a journalist to

cover all aspects of his or her community activity.

Whether it is Muslim organizations and their serious efforts

(I have covered AMA, UMA & AMV on a number of occasions)

or progressive writers or film makers, fundraisers etc.

I think that I`ve done it all from Karachi Kamera to UMA.

(Please see my archives here on CHOWK).

On the philosophical level I agree with Dost -Mittar, Mantolives

and Zeena. But the community needs to have all of its voices

heard. Maybe Zeena can write a full article on her thoughts here

on CHOWK?

I think that Dr. Muqtedar Khan was quite interesting at this event.

And on stage the only Pakistani that I know of was Emcee Omar Khan.

The rest were mainly Indian-Americans and one person from Egypt (amongst

the Muslims).

Ballukhan, if we live in the past we will never see the possibilities of

a bright future. Who did what to whom hundreds of years ago is

not helping anyone. On the other hand Gujarat and Kashmir need

to be addressed because they are more recent.

Ras

Poor Martin Luther King.....had he just had an opportunity to visit chowk he would have figured out that religion is a private affair, to be kept locked inside people`s homes!

so khan-sahib hopes to bridge gap between muslims in amrika and the larger society by suggesting bogus villification of other communities, which have faced bombings of various buildings like stock-exchage, markets, attacks on parliaments, temples, and institutions of learning. and ras-sahib finds ``interesting``..maybe he should discuss above recent events as well.

jang, shishaapa:

The comparison between India (Godhra?) and the USA (WTC) is at least partially valid.

When the WTC attack occurred, even the right-wing nut Bush immediately made a distinction between the attackers and Muslims, calling Islam a religion of peace. US political leaders, mayors, secretaries, legislators went to mosques to reassure Muslims. Contrast this to what the BJP and Modi did. They called a Gujrarat Bandh which was generally viewed as a call to ``direct action``, coupled with incendiary statements by leaders.

On the other hand (which economist worth his salt wouldn`t use his ``other hand``?:)), the attack on the WTC was not carried out by the US Muslims; it was not meant to attack Hindus and the mainstream news media the next day didn`t blame the WTC victims for their fate, like the Indian media blamed the Hindu victims of Godhra by publishing stories about their teasing some Muslim tea-seller`s daughter. And yes, the US does not have a history of bitterness between Muslims and Christians.

It is interesting to note that while USA is supposed to be a melting pot ... did some one say give me your wretched, downtrodden etc ... Muslims still need to make speeches in forums to bridge some gap. Zeena is right. What gap? The Muslim Americans are every bit as American, if not more, than the Italians or the Puerto Ricans for God`s sake.

The truth is, it is a melting pot only for white people. Other shades, don`t ever even begin to think it`s your country.

East is East, and West is West. And never the twain shall meet. Never has, and never will.

Re: # 18

Dost-Mittarji,

I understand what you are saying. I in anyway do not condone what happened in
Gujrat after Godhra.
All I am saying is, if Americans have lived_with/exposed_to the intolerance as long as
Indians have lived and survived, reaction of Americans after such catastrophic event may
not be rational/that we saw after 9/11.

addition to #18:

I should have added that the history of Hindu-Muslim animosity in India makes the reaction of the BJP leaders to Godhra even more irresponsible.

aashee, ballukhan,subashjoshi
Thank you for your compliments. At least I am not hopeless, there are others who have same mindset.

My whole Point is......

We do not need Islam for recognition. Yes, all we need is hardwork, honesty, being good humans with great mannerisms and values which we are already practicing in our daily lives.

Then why all of a sudden I get up, get dressed and go out side and start announcing ,`` Hey, my American neighbors, I am Muslim, look at me and narrow all gaps by crossing a bridge and come closer to me and hug me. I am not stinking, I have used the best perfume this time and this perfume is my recognition, Muslim perfume.................hahahaha``.

The big tragedy with Muslims is they don`t clearly know their religion which is already trapped in the hands of fanatics. Unfortunately, sometimes even some very intellectual Muslims get trapped in the same mindset.

If, these Muslims wish to interact with eachother at their own private level without shouting out loud some bogus propaganda of crossing some imaginary bridges or filling up gaps, they are free to do so like every ethnic group does.......

Sadly, these so called bridge filler Muslims DO NOT help each other at private level, they do not have the real hearts and souls of kind human beings, they stab eachother at their backs.

Majority of these Muslim organizations are hijacked by fanatics. B/c normal, decent, and intellectual Muslim will never mingle up with these idiots................................

If they really wish a recognition, the only way to fill the gap and cross the bridge is to prove themselves as much progressive as possible, as much hardworking as possible, by showing others the right pathways of humanity Without abusing Islam or WITHOUT using false slogans on streets........................if they will be nice humans, that will be their main identity..........................

Even if they insist for filling up this gap by crossing some invisible bridges, my suggestion for these organizations is.....................
Why don`t they go back to the Muslim countries and start filling up the real gap by crossing the bridges which are created by the VACUUMS since they left their homelands. They can contribute their efforts to gather their poor people in a right direction for their betterment.

Do they realize their poor brothers and sisters need them for their basic needs? The time and efforts that they spend in filling GAPS between America and them without any goal, the same efforts they can utilize to fill the GAPS and to cross the real burning bridges between POORS and filthy rich MUSLIMS.

They can fill up the gaps of corruption in those so called Muslim societies by crossing bridges by their high moral values............they really need to work on their homelands BIG GAPS, big black holes.....................But, NO they need to fill only invisible American gaps which are not there.....................

Zeena,

The big tragedy with Muslims is they don`t clearly know their religion ...

This part of your statement is correct. Rest is lack of knowledge.

#23
zeemax sahib

Lack of knowledge?

In what sense? explain

#23
zeemax jii

Lack of knowledge?

Is this lack of knowledge to emphasise on humanity, rather than Mullahism?

Is this lack of knowledge to advise these idiotic organizations to stop humiliating Islam at their own hands and start doing practically good things for the betterment of the poor human beings and start solving the serious issues which are big gaps between a progressive world and a recessive ones.

I don`t go for all those complications, I just believe in simple human principles.
And those human principles are ,``Hard work, honesty, integrity, loyality, bravery , love, kind heartedness, compassion with high human values.`` These are the things which they really need to address ,back in their homelands where they have big GAPS/holes between real humanity and their so, called Muslim agenda, which is just another defected cult with faults.................

Thank you.

when america was attacked at pearl-harbor by the japanese, they proceeded to intern its japanese population. here they merely increased surveillence in in patterson and queens and agressively implemented the immigration law.

Zeena,

It doesn`t need explaining. Read history please.

Thanks.

Re: # 25
``Lack of knowledge?``

What he means is most muslims (including you) lack the knowledge that their religion isn`t about ``bridging gaps`` in the first place.

Attack in Godhra is more comparable to 7/7 attack on London...

But Shishapa is right - if such attacks keep happening regularly in western countries as it happens in india - you will see a much bigger response then what you see India... gujrat riots would be picnic compared to what white man would do the these islamic plate-p!ssers [ as kaurasach puts it :)] that are a curse on secular/puralistic societies...

Like jang pointed out - one attack in pearl-harobor, entire japanese were put into a concentration camp... so don`t get so smug - the whiteman is not as stupid as indians that they will this kind of sh!t lying down... they will hit back with vengeance unlike coward indians who taking this sh!t and some of them actually support the attackers with invented stories and excuses....

#27 atakie
atakie sahib

Your post is totally irrelevant to my responses. Go , clearly read my first response and will understand, where I am coming from................

I am absolutely NOT discussing religion here. I am condemning any religion for bridging any gaps and here you are with out even reading my responses labelling me with a false opinion.


#26 zeemax

Why will I read history? If you are unable to explain your loose and careless response to my responses then , on the contrary clearly you lack the knowledge.

Otheriwse , explain................

Bridging the gap?
The bear hug meiN aur kuchh kasar reh gai hai?

Ubb iss quadar bhhee naa chaho kay ``duuum`` (tail) nikal aaey...

Tumhaaray liay huay badnam: Musharraf wooing US.



The U-turn phenomena: some are making X-turns; Y-turns . ABCD or ABRACADABRA muslims in a quandry: Listen

Ras Siddiqui {``The first speaker, Dr. Muqtedar Khan is the Assistant Professor in the Political Science and International; Relations Department at the University of Delaware...He said that Muslims here need to have a major paradigm shift and that if they think of themselves as foreigners here they will be treated as such. “American Muslims have become too full of themselves,” he said. He attributed this to the tolerance of Americans and added that if a 9/11 type event happened in India, thousands of Muslims would have been slaughtered. ``The biggest threat to American Muslims is another attack,” he said. ``}

Ras,
No kidding, Sherlock! I could have told you all this and you would not have had to gather these 400 wise men in a central place like California. Next time, for everyone`s convenience you should meet in Hawaii or better yet Pago Pago. The American Muslim leadership in North America (ISNA, ICNA, CHIKNA, CAIR, MSA) is largely responsible for the misfortunes of people in America with Muslim names. Throughout their existence, these extremists have pushed the agenda of Saudi Sunni Wahabism, Muslim Brotherhood, and Palestinian terrorists such as Hamas. They have emphasized the need for beards, the hijab, segregation of the sexes, Islamic ghettos, Islamic garb, and Islamic thought, action, and speech. This has resulted in a thorough alienation of Muslims from the mainstream. A well-orchestrated series of interfaith kumbaya sessions, carefully manipulated to only include the Wahabbi point of view, has further defined American Muslims as some lunatics from outer space who devour human babies and blow up tall buildings.

Stop speaking for ALL people with Muslim-sounding names in America. Please let Muslims be on their own, free to mingle with the rest of the society in a country where they chose to live. If certain American Muslims are so bent on spreading Islam and emphasizing Islamic behavior, why don`t they start in countries that have solid Muslim majorities - like Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Indonesia, Sudan, Egypt, and Afghanistan. When it works there and you have developed the best philosophy for mankind since the Roman orgy, please bring it to the US for our benefit. In the meantime, shave your beards, take off that stupid hijab and stop calling me brother, unless you have real pictures to prove that.

Ras Siddiqui {``He attributed this to the tolerance of Americans and added that if a 9/11 type event happened in India, thousands of Muslims would have been slaughtered. ``}

Also, Ras Bhai,
Please tell Dr. Muqtedar Khan to stop making this stupid statement over and over. He seems to be saying ``Thank God, 9/11 happened in good old USA, if it happened in India then the ointment would really hit the fan.``

First of all, India and Indians have been victims of Islamic terrorism since the early 90s. With the exception of Modi`s Gujarat, where the issue was state-sponsored exercise in teaching Muslims a lesson, most of India and Indians have reacted surprisingly sensibly and responsibly to terrorist events.

Instead of praising Americans for their kind reaction or blaming Indians for a hypothetical reaction, we Muslims need to eliminate terrorism, extremism, intolerance, and segregation. Let`s clean our house and not make comments on how nicely others shield themselves from our dirt.

Re: # 31 salim
[...(ISNA, ICNA, CHIKNA, CAIR, MSA) is largely responsible for the misfortunes of people in America with Muslim names.....]

Yep... these l0sers have been dancing to saudi tunes for far too long... always whining about this ``injustice`` or that... shedding crocodile tears about palis while the entire muslim world has been rotting under self-created garbage....

Have any of these organization campaigned for reform in their home societies?... for democracy, secularism, tolerance, pluralism?... have any of these guys protested against outright intolerance and big0try practiced in saudi arabia and other places?... or wahabi terrorism being spread across the world?...

I doubt it... now that their a$$es are in line, they are crying copius tears on how to bridge the ``gap`` - the gap that they themselves have knowingly expanded all these years...

how can you bridge anything when you practice all sorts of exclusive ideologies?... islam is best, kafir is bad, secularism is haram, jews are evil, hinuds are evil, america is the satan... these are the mantras that is being drilled into muslims all over the world since their childhood.... under such situation - how are you going to bridge any gap?

Re: # 32 salim

Yeah - Indians are fair game for everybody... nobody ever says anything when they get bombed and massacred and ethnic-cleansed from their homes - but as soon as they hit back, all hell breaks loose... everyone and their aunt gets all worked up to pound on the evil indians...

Ah well...

salim bro, that`s ok :) It`s a tragedy that the Islamic world must stoop to the level of Muqtedar Khans and Yoginder Sikands to find its liberal intellectuals. But may be there is something in mother India`s milk that we are stuck with such luminaries. These are my brothers, so I guess, I must share in the blame.

more by Dr Khan

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_1-4-2005_pg3_4

Re: # 35 kaal
[...These are my brothers, so I guess, I must share in the blame...]

Only if you love self-goals ...or shooting yourself in foot ...or cutting down the branch you are sitting on... take your pick :)

Re: # 29
``I am absolutely NOT discussing religion here.``

This is what you said in your original post:

``I am myself and same is with other majority sensible Muslims who have nothing to do with any 9/11 attacks or any terrorism. Why should we feel guilty? Why would we be apologetic?
Why should we feel insecure if we are no different from any other American? ``

and in another post:

``Majority of these Muslim organizations are hijacked by fanatics. B/c normal, decent, and intellectual Muslim will never mingle up with these idiots``


While I applaud your moderate views, it is simply wishful thinking to think that Muslims around the world are secretly like you and that these Muslim organizations have been ``hijacked`` by mysterious fanatics.

If you call yourself a Muslim you need to bear some responsibility or at least have some awareness of what the religion is. What the religion is not about is ``Being Muslim is my private and personal choice for my own soul`` as you said. People like you seem to think that you can don a pleasant mixture of humanist values and spirituality and then label yourself as a Muslim and then wonder why anyone in the world has a problem with Islam.

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#33
mohar11 sahib

There is no such thing as GAP or BRIDGE here in America.

These so called fanatic Muslim organizations are stupid to assume that they are so very important that an average American will feel any gap or bridge.

America was very tolerant , when these pseudo Muslims weren`t under the the idiotic flags of their organizations.

Very few people knew what religion got to do with average Americans. No body cared.
Since these idiots started this idiotic propaganda , now I am seeing some chage in American attitudes towards religions.

They have rusted and spoilt America with their religious venoms.

My question is again, if they are that much concerned about preserving their Muslim ethnicity and they are that much loyal with eachother based on their Muslim unity. Then why don`t they go back to their homeland countries and start bridging big gaps between poverty and hunger, between rich and poors...............

They don`t realise they are needed most in their own countries for the betterment of those miserable humans who really need to gather under a flag to solve their problems........

Why don`t they show a true Islam and gather all poors under their arms to show true brotherhood?

Believe me , average Americans don`t care what they are screaming for...............

These selfish organizations should be kicked off of America for their chaotic rantings..............

Re: # 40

That will be nice...

Siddiqui Sahib,
I mean seriously, sir, these imposters of ISNA, ICNA, CAIR, and other 4-letter words go around misrepresenting themselves as the sole spokesmen for 6 million to 7 million (the number keeps growing by a million every month!) ``Muslim`` Americans. This probably includes the almost 2 million expatriate Iranians most of whom have no desire to be associated with any religious outfit - especially a Wahabbi Sunni one.

Why can`t these few thousand people, with extra time on their hands, go around doing useful things - like picking up hot dog wrappers at ball parks? With their unbiased views and keen eyesight, perhaps they could judge wet T-shirt contests, or start halal barber shops, or better yet, consolidate their annoying organizations with Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Jerry Springer, or Jimmy Swaggart. In fact, much of the agenda of the extremist Muslims in America coincides with the Moral Majority and the 700 Club. No, the latter is not a strip joint in Norfolk with a staff of 700.

The sensible thing to do is to leave American Muslims alone. Let us be free to assimilate at our own rate and comfort level, instead of being hastily shoved into the mainstream out of rabid fear of being associated with the extremist Muslims. Can`t you see that these ``Muslim`` organizations are doing much more harm than the little good that is done by their phony appearances at Bar Mitzvahs and cross burnings?

Thanks to you guys, even our only claim to fun, yes the long-cherished institution of polygamy, has been hijacked by the Mormons of LDS - yeah, just watch an episode of ``Big Love.`` That could have been about us, if only we were perceived as good people. :)

re#40

>>>>My question is again, if they are that much concerned about preserving their Muslim ethnicity and they are that much loyal with eachother based on their Muslim unity. Then why don`t they go back to their homeland countries and start bridging big gaps between poverty and hunger, between rich and poors............... <<<<<

Zeena MemSaab,
Very refreshing!

regards,

very simple -- remember tha famous saying -- don`t do in Mecca what the Romans do in Rome -- and don`t do in Rome what the Meccans do in Mecca -- and nobody will bother nobody .....

OH my weird ones -- mingle

#38
aktaie jii

Sorry, your post is irrelevant to my responses. You are discussing west and I am discussing South.

I can not comprehend your post, like you are unbale to comprehend my post. And irony is my posts are always very simple and straightforward.

I request you to please read my responses. I don`t deny that I am not Muslim.
Yes, I am denying the existence of these stupid fanatic organizations.

Again, my religion is my personal thing which has got nothing to do with my being American or not. Simple.............

And, why should I feel any responsibility> Responsibility for what? What did I do to feel guilty?

I am law abiding, heavy Tax paying , hardwroking , honest and loyal American citizen, then why should I need to remind any responsibility for 9/11 or for any gap or bridges by these idiotic Muslim organization?

I do not feel any gap. And, These idiots don`t know what they are talking about? God knows what they are trying to make out of America?

I am an American citizen, I condemn Muslim fanatic organization TO POLLUTE AMERICA with their stupid and hateful religion. America is not based on religion. It is based on basic human freedom. If they are that much keen of being religious , just pack their bags and leave America, lunatics.

OH my Wounded-Heads ones -- take off that sick bandage from your pretty heads and disappear in the Roman crowd.....with a clear head.

Chowk Staff

Please, fix the article`s space. There is some technical glitch with this page.
Thanks

Ref#32
[First of all, India and Indians have been victims of Islamic terrorism since the early 90s.]

Dear Salim,

Just want to add to what you have said. You are slightly off the mark with your dates. India and Indians have been victims of Islamic terrorism since tha attack of M. Bin Qasim.

#178 by Mantolives

Don`t try and jump off the topic now that you`ve been caught once again trying to be clever by half.

Call it trivia, but it is ``too clever by half``.

... (the bhagat singh issue was raised again by Drlokraj very effectively after I had acknowledged your point ... I think he clarified the real problem very well and you had no real answer to that.

I did dear Yasser. Lokraj said Gandhi was half-hearted. In that case, I can claim Jinnah was half-hearted too. So what does that prove? Your contention was that Gandhi did nothing. A simple Google search was enough to prove that you were peddling a blatant lie.

There is a book by A G Noorani called ``Trial of Bhagat Singh`` which also takes the same issue with Gandhi.

Prove it Yasser, instead of making wild assertions. Or is yet another claim in the already huge pile of unsubstantiated claims at which you`re so famous?

I am more interested in finding out how these ``Lawyers, Judges, Solicitors, advocates`` ( solicitors are not separate from advocates in Pakistan btw) plead cases or decide cases without ever consulting All India Reports which are replete with references to H M Seervai?

I don`t know nor did I find the need to ask them, given the fact that I`m not familiar with the intricacies of their profession. In any case, even if Seervai was all you claim, just how does it make him an authority on Jinnah`s intentions?

Also thank you very much for acknowledging that just like your imaginary friends in the legal professions, you don`t have any hard copy sources to prove your imaginary assertions.

Yaar Yasser, only a dumb idiot like you will rush to the nearerst library everytime there is a need to prove something. With so much available on the Internet to expose your spin, I simply don`t find any need to go to a library, nor do I have the inclination. At least disprove any of the assertions that I made, which will force me to look for a hard copy reference, but no, instead you will give silly excuses such as the one you made in response to Humayun Mirza`s claim that Jinnah sent his father to the NWFP to start a Jihad against the British. You said, ``Jinnah was angry``. I never had such a hearty laugh before.

Oops. This one does not belong here. Apologies.

Harish mian,

Who is being clever by half on this board by posting this. You didn`t quote any ``Hard Copy`` reference there either. You posted a ``Review``.

Like I pointed out google sources - especially biased websites- are not the equivalent of hard copy sources which I have painstakingly produced. Furthermore, some of us have a tradition of collecting books... I can see how to the point, exact references that I produce have a disturbing effect on you.

You still haven`t responded to my question - which is unconcerned with Seervai as an authority on partition which a lot of your countrymen do consider him to be- that how your ``friends`` in the ``legal`` profession plead cases without consulting AIR Volumes?

My guess is that you made this up as you make up most of your stuff ...

#53 by Mantolives

I knew this post would elicit this Pavlovian response from you. Please see #52 and come back to the other board where I have you by the scruff of your neck. Thanks.

``Scruff of your neck``

Big words from a big bluffer.

Re: # 54 & 55 and various

Can we allow Gandhi and Jinnah to finally rest in peace?

I think nobody is going to blame G & J anymore if we scr*w up things for ourselves. It`s too late for that. So let the bygones be bygones.

G&J were mortals like us, it is but natural that they were at times weak, indecisive or plain stupid, may be. Just like everybody is. We have to move on from where they left, good or bad.

Sorry if my post sounded like a homily, but this G&J thing is too boring. Let`s have a more interesting fight.

Please no Gandhi Jinnah bouts here.

I happen to respect them BOTH very much.


Salim_Chauhan, Sherlock has been found in your replies.

Have you dropped your ``jang`` identity or do you plan to revive it?


There are various issues that Muslims in the U.S have faced

since 9/11. I am glad that they are having such discussions

in spite of some objections here. I support UMA, AMA, AMV locally

because they are not keeping blinders on and are talking about the issues.

If there are better ways we are all ears.

Going out and having a beer or two with coworkers is not for all Muslims.


Ras

Ras, i am of the opinion that you cannot build positive relations with one community on the basis of upon a negative bigoted villification of other community. And i DONOT share nick with salim.

Chowk-Staff, can you issue certificates of authenticity?

Ras Siddiqui {``Islam (Isi) Siddiqui, one of the founders (and past President) of UMA and an Undersecretary of Agriculture in the Clinton Administration spoke first.``}

Braader Ras,
What exactly did Dr. ISI Siddiqui do agriculturally? Was he cultivating tobacco in the Rose Garden for making cigars for Bubba to smoke in the Oval Office?
Also, why is his name ISI? Is this a covert nom de guerre?

Jang #58, {``And i DONOT share nick with salim. ``}

Jang,
I told you to bring your own needles.

Ras #57{`` Salim_Chauhan, Sherlock has been found in your replies.
Have you dropped your ``jang`` identity or do you plan to revive it?
I support UMA, AMA, AMV locally because they are not keeping blinders on and are talking about the issues.
If there are better ways we are all ears.
Going out and having a beer or two with coworkers is not for all Muslims. ``}

Braader Ras,
Thank you for your polite interaction and consideration of my suggestions. I use the ``Jang`` identity only when I want to rattle some mullah`s cage without fear of retaliatory fatwas. Now, back to your article and your comments about my suggestions. I am not complaining about the UMA/AMA/ISNA/ICNA/CHICKNA/CAIR/ISI/AlKayda/TallyBan/JUI/JI/LeT/SeS having their blinders on or not talking about the issues. In fact I am suggesting quite the opposite; that they go into permanent hibernation, put their blinders on, and stop talking - period.

They have done so much harm in the past that all they can do, regardless of how sincere and motivated they may now be, is to deepen the huge hole that they have managed to dig for Islam and Muslims in America. First they directed all Muslims to support Bush in 2000 out of some stupid fear of having a Jewish VP. Then, once elected Bush promptly ignored his Muslim backers and in fact put some of them in the slammer, sent some packing back to Islamdom, and became the most solid backer of Israel since Cyrus the Great. In 2004, the same crowd of Muslim ``brain trust`` did a 180 and directed all Muslims to support Kerry and the Democrats. Kerry kept Muslims at an arm`s length, Hillary returned Muslim cash, and Bush was not even pricked as he went on to a second term.

From what I understand, before ISNA, MSA, and all the other ``blind leading the blind`` outfits came into being, Islam and Muslims were neither glorified nor detested in America. Muslims were a novelty and many people looked favorably upon Islam with its simplicity, unity, discipline, and lack of discrimination. Then the US started issuing visas for Imams and all hell broke loose. Every fanatic from Alamoudy to Zanankhoury came out of the woodwork to use the name of Islam for personal gain and get his hand into the Zakat cookie jar for selfish or terrorist causes around the globe. Financed with Saudi money, these imposters transformed the moderate American Muslim image to one of Wahabbi extremism, backwardness, and cruelty. September 11 is merely something that happened outside of their control and without their connivance. But it did stop them in their tracks and put the spotlight on their shenanigans. They have done far worse for Islam than the Hare Krishna, before them, did to the image of Lord Krishna and Hinduism. The only difference is that the orange suits were funnier and less despised.

One simple suggestion - please leave the Muslims of America alone. Don`t organize them. Don`t direct them to vote this way or that way. Don`t ``educate`` them. Most importantly don`t harm them by trying to speak for them. Let them assimilate into the great melting pot at their own pace driven by their own needs. Right now, out of fear and resentment, many Muslims are accelerating their assimilation just so they are not mistaken for one of the ISNA/CHICKNA crowd. Thanks.

Re: # 57 Ras
[...If there are better ways we are all ears...]

There are no easy way out for you guys - because you guys have been practicing exclusive ideologies for far too long...

Here are some better ways:

1. Stop chanting ``islam is best``...
2. Stop villifying kafirs - jews, hinuds or whoever
3. Start taking Saudis to task for big0try they practice.
4. Protest in front of Saudi embassy [or anytime Prince Bandar visits] - ask them to stop funding islamic terrorism around the world.

Let`s start with that...

The conclusion of this article is quite absurd. It states

<<< And as for another 9/11, American Muslims know that we have to do all that we can to stop any such horrific act from impacting anyone’s life again. >>>

If the world`s most massive intelligence apparatus with its plethora of agencies whose combined budgets exceed the GDP of a dozen countries put together could not ``stop`` 9/11, according to their official version of events, how can a group of wannabes like this California group try to stop it? What is criminal in such conclusions is that it tries to place the blame of 9/11 on Muslims as a whole rather than look at the socio-economic and political forces that led to pre event motiviations and post event cashing in by the US elite.

We cannot possibly expect much from a bunch of idiots meeting in California or whereever for a social event, giving big speeches without understanding a thing about the big picture in these events, buying into the US elite official horse dung version of the tale, about things within Islam being the ``cause`` of terrorism. The meeting seems almost as valuable as a meeting the Chowkies have set up in Roswell to discuss how the Indians on here can be excommunicated to Mars where they can set up communites to live and prosper at will on the east side of the planet, appropriately named New Pakistan.

Grow up people and grand people. It is high time you all woke up.

#63, masadi {``how can a group of wannabes like this California group try to stop it? ...We cannot possibly expect much from a bunch of idiots meeting in California or whereever for a social event, giving big speeches without understanding a thing about the big picture in these events``}

Asadi Sahib,
For whatever reasons, on this issue you and I seem to be in agreement. I think we both recognize these Monday morning quarterbacks who have a little extra time on their hands and want to practice some organizational interpersonal skills and roast some interfaith kumbaya marshmallows. They remind me of ardent tooth brushers, who take their dentists` advice too much to heart, and vigorously brush away the enamel from their own teeth. In their zest for cleaning teeth, they cause more harm and would probably be better off emulating Englishmen who hardly ever expose their teeth to brushes and toothpaste. :) Sometimes less is more.

....... a simple question deserves a simple answer .....

...... and the answer is : no, the gap cannot be bridged because it is too dang wide and getting wider by the day ........... most muslims as represented by the icna, isna, cair and msa are totally out of sync with normal/regular americans ......... masadi is a prime example

I am entering this late but will focus on the following statement.

Dr. Muqtedar Khan is the Assistant Professor in the Political Science and International; Relations Department at the University of Delaware, said:
“American Muslims have become too full of themselves,” he said. He attributed this to the tolerance of Americans and added that if a 9/11 type event happened in India, thousands of Muslims would have been slaughtered.``

It is a pity that even in the fleeting moments of clarity the Pakistanis are unable to catch the truth. Instead of condemning outright the foul actions of Muslims, there is an effort to divert the attention to India`s supposed threat to Muslims.

INDIA GAVE RIGHT OF VOTES TO THE PEOPLE WHO LED TO ITS VIVISECTION. WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT?

#65 by hamidm2 <<< masadi is a prime example >>>

This A.H has no concept of reality or honesty or fact. He knows that I do not belong to any of the groups he has mentioned, in fact my stand on the Quran as the only authority on Islam places me in complete opposition to those groups who are fond of labeling anyone going against their official version in negative terms.

That said, the gap grows wider between America and the world not only the Muslims because of what the US elite are doing and their us versus them mentaility that is good for profit maximization.

Dr. Muqtedar Khan: ``if a 9/11 type event happened in India, thousands of Muslims would have been slaughtered. ``


ungrateful Hyderabadi fanatic, found excuse to bad mouth India in this freaking meeting.........

Did he tell the audience that from Morocco to Indonesia, the only place Muslims enjoy democracy in the bad bad Hindu India?

Do the things that you do in India and check out the American tolerance:

.............Rape a young girl and say Indian Supreme court has no jurisdiction over you, bcoz u are a muslim, say only Sharia law applies

...........have your own educational instituitions, have separate laws for these in America and let Christians, Jews, Hindus have another set of laws

........... Fight for freedom struggle of Muslim majority areas of Michigan, NY, NJ should form a puki-ameristan. do you have an Olloma Ikbaal yet? has he born anywhere? perhaps in Dearborn, Michigan?

..........slit the throats, and pump bullets into the heads of sleeping christians and try calling this freedumb struggle.

Re: # 66
Inquirerji,
thanks for your post.

it is even worse. I wish this guy is a Pakistani.. nope.

went to Osmania University in Hyderabad.

One muslim dies in Gujarat there is immediate verbal violence..from muslim apologists...

THey don`t display such verbal violence (not even remotely close) when it comes to politcal muslim extremism....

The writing is behind the wall-paper.

The gap is being bridged: by US people themselves.

With their aging secularoo liberaloo population, an aversion to breeding, alternate-orifice syndromes, women`s `advancement`, self-aquired ailments and fruits-of-progress like built-in obesity & several unmentionables--the gap IS being bridged bit by bit.

``Husn khuud baitaab hai jalva dikhaanay kay liyay``
tr:She is herself restless and eager to unveil her charms

The marginal-muslims, eager to mainstream following this route, can look forward to such ``Natural`` kirya-kirims. Praans do get released from this baans-budhhee.

In the meantime the tide of coversions among ``heritage`` Americans, even among the top echelons, Latin Americans, Afro-Americans, and the return to fundamentals by youths of the
Abrahamic faiths (even when there are violent differences, they are still family) is a harbinger of a good gapless USA.

``BUlaa sey hUm ney naa daikhaa, toa aur daikhaiN gey
Faroagh-i Gulshan-O saut-i hazaar kaa mausam``

tr: Ok so if we are not there, others will be(there) to see
The days when the garden`ll bloom, the nightingale`ll sing

#69, bharath {``One muslim dies in Gujarat there is immediate verbal violence..from muslim apologists...
THey don`t display such verbal violence (not even remotely close) when it comes to politcal muslim extremism....``}

Bharath Bhai,
Look at my post #32. I was the first one to object to Dr. Muqtedar Khan`s nonsensical statement about what would have happened in India had 9/11 happened there. And yes, I happen to be a Pakistani Muslim.

Also, more than one person died in Gujarat. :)

Re: # 70
[...The days when the garden`ll bloom, the nightingale`ll sing...]

And echo mian will dance,
hand in hand
with sandwitch mullah :))

#72 by mohar11

dil Pur mUtt ley yaar. MeiN hooN naaN!

hamidum2 #65 {``most muslims as represented by the icna, isna, cair and msa are totally out of sync with normal/regular americans ......... masadi is a prime example``}

Hamidum Sahib,
While we are eye to eye, cheek to cheek, and shoulder to shoulder on this subject of ISNA/ICNA/CHICKNA/MSA/ALKayda/TallyBan/ISI/MSA/CAIR/LeT/SeS/JUI/JI/MMA, please acknowledge Mr. Masadi as also being totally out of synchronization with this group of self-promoting, self-righteous, trumpet blowers. I would easily dismiss them as nutcases, quacks, and people whose elevator doesn`t go all the way up, but unfortunately, these morons have plenty of time, lots of money, and even more desire to be humiliated than Enron executives.

Re: # 66
[...INDIA GAVE RIGHT OF VOTES TO THE PEOPLE WHO LED TO ITS VIVISECTION. WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT?...]

Right to riot at the drop of a hat...

Re: # 67

masadi,

..... you might reject your brothers of a slightly different feather but your ``stand on the Quran as the only authority on Islam`` puts you in the same flock of america-haters ..... your cockamamie denials do not improve your credibility

Inquirer #66 {``INDIA GAVE RIGHT OF VOTES TO THE PEOPLE WHO LED TO ITS VIVISECTION. WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT?``}

Inquirer Sahib,
If you are referring to the act of partition itself, please allow me to disagree. Partition was effected by neither a referendum nor a plebiscite. It was merely a rapid, selfish, and insidious exercise in power grabbing by both ML and Congress stalwarts. The British decided to leave, Mountbatten placed an ultimatum, and the desis got intimidated into making rash decisions. Then everybody started killing, butchering, raping, burning, running, escaping, and blaming. A typical Chinese fire-drill - except performed by brown people in all their shameless glory of gore and lust.

Re: # 71
Salim Bhai,
I didn`t refer to you at all....
and definitely i won`t call you a muslim apologist either..


regards,

Inquirer, mohar

Please let`s be careful here. If anyone should be in the clear, it is the Muslims who stayed back in India, who chose to be Indians - at a time when the killer tornado or fear, uncertainty, and hatred had been let loose.

About the post 1947 mess, nobody - neither Hindu extremists nor Muslim extremists - is to be blamed even remotely, except for Hindu liberals.

Re: # 79 kaal

Yeah, yeah - we know all that... at this time, that point is moot - nobody questioning who chose stay back where... or who to be blamed for what...

the point here is - just stop rioting at the drop of a hat... if you are not satisfied with way things are - well, find non-violent way to get them to your liking... there are ample avenues open for a civilized solution to disputes...

Riot-me-a-river mindset will get you nowhere... it will get a lot of agony for everybody - those who chose to riot and innocent bystanders...

Enough is enough... this kind of non-sense has to stop...

#78, Bharath Bhai,
Thank you for your kind explanation. Seriously, I resent Dr. Muqtedar Khan for making such an asinine statement. It is hypothetical, insulting to BOTH Americans and Indians, and most of all insulting to Muslims for not being able to control terrorists among us. Instead he wants Muslims to compare the victims` calm and patience in reacting to terrorism. The good people are the ones who can die in peace and not resort to violence of their own. Wah wah - what about putting an end to terrorism in the first place. And they gave a PhD to this moron?

More about Shri Muqtedar Khan. Overall, I would say he seems a reasonable guy. I think it is reasonable to bash Modi and India by extension given the murder and killings in Gujarat.


http://www.danielpipes.org/article/1167

re#81,
Salim Bhai,
this is a general comment, i am not saying you do this:

Any time when riots are instigated where people of one religion go around and kill unarmed civilians of another religion, and (with government machinery looking at the other way or worse actively participating) ......
....it severly undermines and shakes the very fundamentals/ foundations of the country. Any sane person should condemn this/ bash this. No doubt out this. Shameful.


Also we should all be skeptical about some people who claim that they luv India etc, but have absolutely no plans whatsoever for reconciliation with other groups.

Having said that....
People who beleive or claim that thre is no political muslim extremism, people who refuse to acknowledge that such extremism and intimidatory politics drive and sustain
Hindu extremism are ostriches with thier heads tightly inside the sand....

yet this is what goes around as secularism in India. Thus all muslims are secularists, Muslim parties are secular parties.........and any one who remotely critizes muslim extremism is instantly labelled communalist.

Here is an extract from pmishraji`s web link:

Dr. Muqtedar Khan: The maqasid (objectives) of the Sharia is to establish social justice, equality, tolerance, and freedom of religion in societies

Dr. Daniel Pipes: Professor Khan confidently tells us that the Sharia as he understands it will ``establish social justice and coexist harmoniously with a democratic polity.`` But this is argument by assertion. He has not provided any basis for this optimism. So far, the record in countries where the Sharia is applied -- Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Sudan, Afghanistan -- is less than encouraging.

the Sharia harks back to a decidedly antidemocratic sensibility in everything from its emphasis on God`s will (not popular sovereignty) to its privileging of Muslims over non-Muslims. For Muslims to develop functioning democracies requires that they put aside the Sharia or transmute it into something quite different from what it is understood to be today.

Re: # 22

Zeena

You are wonderful Zeena. I agree with you 100%. Why not fill the gap between the Islam of the Prophet called `Rehmatulaalimeen` (A mercy for the worlds) and the Islam of Ilam Din and Aamir Cheema? What Ilam Din had been accused of doing at Lahore (He himself had denied it though before the court), Aamir Cheema tried to copy it in Berlin and thus created a new wide gap between the Muslims and the world at large. See, while the Muslims in the West seem to be stunned fearing reaction by the West, the Pakies in the Pakland are all praise for Aamir, oblivious of the reaction for the poor Muslims who had gone to the west only to earn their living by paying a very high cost in most cases.

as long as we Muslims men carry our unreformed unmodernized backward medieval evangelical religion in our sleeves -- jamming under a Bedouin tent -- as Islamic snake handlers -- with our women parading on the Western streets in Halloween Headgear at Christmas Eve.....

.....the gap will remain a gaping Canyon........ remember your English alphabet -- the capital A is for America...THE small a is for -- ASSIMILATE......ASSIMILATE....want to live here for ever....you will ASSIMILATE.

Want to live in WEST -- we HAVE to Westernize -- NOT Easternize......that will be silly

#83 bharath

Good catch, I missed some of Shri Muqtedar soft islamist-type comments.

Overall I think he is on the right track; Malaysia and Turkey are reasonable societies with strong muslim influence. The main problem is in the culture and islam of the middle-east; unfortunately, pakistan, which regards itself as more arab than the arabs has now copied this flavor of islam. As these people are culturally indian, they have to express this arabism thru more and more extremism. This also has slowly some impact on Bangladesh and Indian muslims.

I wonder why Malaysia has much less impact on Bangladesh and IM than Saudi Arabia. Is it just the saudi oil money which is used to teach hatred and dis-respect for others? Is it like a colonial inferiority complex which places arabs and saudis at a higher-level than others? A deeper investigation would be revealing.

I happen to agree somrwhat with both pmishra2 and nasah.

Personally I happen to be a follower of Sir Syed Ahmad Khan

and the Aligarh model of Islamic reformation through

education.

On a side note I enjoyed Dr. Muqtedar Khan`s presentation at

this event very much. He has a very sharp mind and a great

sense of humor. His remark on India was not off the mark.

Pakistan is just as bad. Minorities are often under physical

danger in both countries. There is a great deal of room for

improvement there.

On the SA model, let us not get too carried away. Over

the past 15 years I have covered events by CAIR, AMA, UMA,

AMV, met leaders of MPAC, ISNA, ICNA (have not run into

CHICKNA Salim_Chauhan (or have I?)). Almost none of these

people subscribe to the SA model. They have adpted their thinking

to where they live, the U.S.A. because like me, this is where their

children are growing up. The same is true for Pakistani organizations

and IM ones. They tend to be more liberal, hold cultural events etc.

There are of course some exceptions that you will run into now and then.

but overall, post 9/11 America is a different landscape. America no longer

needs fanatics to counter the bad communists. It needs to contain what it

it had a hand in creating.

Ras

Bharath #83, {``...the Sharia as he understands it will ``establish social justice and coexist harmoniously with a democratic polity.`` But this is argument by assertion. He has not provided any basis for this optimism. So far, the record in countries where the Sharia is applied -- Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Sudan, Afghanistan -- is less than encouraging.

the Sharia harks back to a decidedly antidemocratic sensibility in everything from its emphasis on God`s will (not popular sovereignty) to its privileging of Muslims over non-Muslims. For Muslims to develop functioning democracies requires that they put aside the Sharia or transmute it into something quite different from what it is understood to be today.``

Bharath Bhai,
I agree wholeheartedly with your entire post and it mirrors my own beliefs and aspirations. Loyalty to one`s country`s legal, moral, and valid positions and respect for others is not too much to ask of anyone claiming to be Indian, American, or Pakistani. Communalism is just an excuse for the morally weak and economically inferior people to break the rules and benefit from the anarchy they are able to create temporarily. That has nothing to do with support for true secularism - an environment where one can practice or not practice any doctrine that does not interfere with the rights of others.

As for Sharia Law, my friend, that is the real problem. On this issue the so-called liberals of Islam and those ostensibly eager to modernize expose themselves. This is where they start their waffling. In my opinion, Sharia Law was compiled by mortals in the 8th and 9th centuries, at a time when inspecting your camel`s ass for crabs was the main issue of the day. Concepts such as margins, options, NPV, IRR, same-sex marriages, defensive offense, mass terrorism, cell phones with cameras, and ATMs were not confronting society everywhere. Seriously, we need to