Miracles Can Happen

Re: # 25
Hello, hello, hello
its always nice to hear from arrogant bigots like you, it makes my day ever so better. Iam sure Zeena will give u a fitting response, but hthis is just for my pleasure.

Pakistan came into being because of MA Jinnah, a secularist to the core, nowhere in the agreements signed by Muslim League and the British Raj is Pakistan referred to as a Islamic state, only place where religion has been inserted is the Objective resolution (post Jinnah death) under duress from the religious parties or Jamaat Islami propagandist who have brainwashed Pakis in believeing this two nation theory as fundamental pillar of Jinnah`s initiatives.

Pakistan came into being because Muslims wanted a separate state and their cause was led by a constitutuionalists who believed in the rule of law, democracy, equal rights and secularism. Had it been Mawdudi or the JUH, things wud have been different fortunately for Pakistan they were too full of themselves and opposed Jinnah, his Muslim League and sided with Congress. Now if that is the country u r looking for, as u suggested for Zeena here is my suggestion go to India they need u more, we have plenty of Muslims we can do away with a few.

If Islam was such a great solution, then this state and Saudi Arabia another based on the same laws would have been crime free, all citizens would be considered equal, there wud be no separation btw Govt and ppl, and its citizens wud be considered human beings. We all know that was not to be, as evidenced by the murdering religious parties in the form of LJ, SSP, SM, JI and LT. Saudi Arabia is the birth place for Al qaeda and its vision of Islam, that is the product of narrow minded religious bigots who do not wish to hear or tolerate divergent viewpoints which are considered punishable by death. Was this why Pakistan was created? I disagree.

As for the Hudood laws, well u r right, even Musharraf has failed to change them and thats why many Pakistanis who are able to distinguish fact from fiction criticize the General for his double policies and failure to deliver Pakistab back to its rightful owner ie the people. Hudood laws are surviving only because of the Generals need to stay in power, his wheeling and dealing with the crazed mullas, unchecked violence perpetuated by these fundo organizations getting official support starting from Gen Yahya days against Awami League and today in the form of LJ`s etal unleashing terror in Pakistan, Kashmir and Afghanistan (Taliban).

When the state sponsors religious intolerance and sanctions violence by a few that usually leads to fascism and eventually anarcy which u hv started to witness in Baluchistan and Frontier, as they say what goes around comes around.

Finally, take it from me a Pakistani, majority of Pakistanis do not care about the Hudood laws which more importantly are not the laws enshrined by God but those written by a deranged dictator and supported by his fundo supporters. These fundos till the last election which again was engineered for obvious reasons were never able to garner majority in elections, they were always regarded as the fringe nuisance value thus the reason to keep secular leaders out of the country and let the mullas roam freely.

If u wish to spread your propaganda about hudood laws atleast get the facts straight, these r Zia laws not hudood laws.

Zeena,

people like you are the bane of pakistan. You talk of relogion not doing any good for pakistan, well well, read the pak.org official history of pakistan. Pakistan was created for islam, the great two nation thory that muslims cannot live with the hindus. There is no way, and pakistan should not be anything other than an islamic state. The good part is that people like you exist only on the internet. In the strrets of pakistan yoy are yhe ones who silently support the hoodood.

Take it from me Zeena, majority of the pakistanis, the educated pakistnis especially support the islaimic stste. That is why hoodood has existed for so long, survived benazir, nawaz and noww the mushy. he has changed so much of the constuttution but will not touch hoodood.

Hoodood is th ecentral tenet of islam. Murder or rape is not a crime against the state. Only blas-phemy ois crime against the state. Murder is not, some one has to complain to police, that too a close relative and that is why honour killing ecxists in pakistan.

If you are dare enough say that hoodood is the core value of islam and that is why no one touches it,

Re: # 21

I second whatever Zeena has written.

I am very hopeful that there will be further progress, within next decade.The turnaround has happened.There are other optimists like me..............like Mantolives. And we will work together.for a modern, democratic, secular Pakistan.

arjunm,

It was passed through a presidential order under Zia ul Haq. The process was unconstitutional...

Then a non-party based parliament ratified it. A process- especially a constitutional process- is always logical.

Ofcourse one can always quote the 1974 Ahmaddiya Fiasco ... where two of the most liberal and left parties in Pakistan`s history sat in government and opposition (PPP and NAP) and mullahs were no where in site... But even then ... the most state could not take away the minority community`s right to profess as they please....

It took a military dictator to actually take that right away.

RE:- #19

syedrafay212 sahib

For your kind information, Pakistan is never an Islamic republic of Pakistan. This name is given by some Pseudo Mullahs.

Even If we presume for a second, it is Islamic republic . Then with all honesty of your heart, tell me where is Islam in Pakistan, which is # 1 in CORRUPTION in each and every level.

People like you are crying out loud like broken records, who are stuck with this word, Isssssslaaam, Issslllllmmmm.

Where is light, me lord???

In Pakistan what ever is happening is exactly opposite of Islam. Everyone claims I am Muslim, Muslim......Being Muslim is being honest and nice humans with love of humanity.....Well, in Pakistan all these qualities are extinct.....

So, come out of fool`s paradise and face reality...............

Stop projecting this useless word, Islam again and again..... Islam is our personal choice. It has got nothing to do with Governance.

How much Islam has benefitted Pakistan? By saying this mind it, I am NOT rejecting Islam or any religion.

I respect others beliefs and religions. But, I am just asking to stop ranting Islam, Islam and start improving lives of poor Pakistanies by teaching them to come out of their ignorance and start living in this century. Thank you

#15 by Mantolives on May 21, 2006 8:20am PT



If the rest of Paki-land wants the Islamization ... then they can do it following a constitutional process


Serious question: Were the laws requiring 4 witnesses etc passed as part of a constitutional process or by decree( considering Zia was the military dictator when they were passed..)

i read all ur comments about the article and its good that u are really interested and shared ur thoughts . Well some one said that we dont need to bring Islam in our political system or atleast not in our discussion about progress , as far as my knowledge about this country i think it is the islamic republic of pakistan based . The sole purpose of having an independant nation was to have an islamic nation .surprise! we live in an islamic nation and that cannot be changed
some one said we muslims are a cult following a prophet well to add to your knowledge sir it is the fastest growing RELIGION in the world
some one said we talk about the end of prophethood and yet we follow quaid e azam and liaqat ali . well for u my friend i dont have words comparing prophets with politicians is bizzare
well the article was intended to tell people that miracles can only happen if you start taking the right steps , it was not to start a religious debate.
for the person who came back after three years well sir if you would have stayed here you would have made a difference intellignt people like you left the country and we had a brain drain in pakistan so comparing it with the country you are in is ignorance as no one in that country left their country thinking of a better life

actually i feel patriotism has died in this country and it needs to be awakend again

I am sure, when Pakistanies will stop repeating Islam , Islam, Islam in every other sentence, they will be much better Human beings with better insight. and not only that their own image about Islam will be clear.

Islam is your friend as long as you keep that friend to your very own self, to improve your own basic human qualities in the light of Islam with out promoting any good or bad image of Islam.

Yes, I do believe miracles can happen. But, miracles will happen only when religion and state will be separate.

To promote Islam, what for? We have had enough of Islam in the past. Thank you

On side note:-

Islam will not improve Pakistan. Individuals will.

Dear Writer

Good article. I agree with most of your points.

But I do not agree with this, you wrote:-{{{We need to improve our global image, promote liberalism not by putting aside religion, but by promoting Islam and its liberal image. }}}

Yes, we need to improve our global image to promote liberalism.......

But, we do not need to promote Islam or it`s image. Islam or any religion is our personal and private matter. Islam has got nothing to do with governance or it has got nothing to do with our international affairs.

This is the biggest mistake that Pakistanies are trapped in to, when they talk about improving their image in reference to Islam or any religion.

Pakistan will only develop it`s better image, when Pakistanies will leave Islam aside with out mixing it with their development.

Yes, the only key to the building of a better Pakistan is ,``Stop corruption at each and every level.`` Pakistan is entrapped in this avalanche of corruption which is eating up the whole country and it`s poor population. Not only that Pakistan`s image is disrupted by this avalanche world wide and other international companies are reluctant to invest in Pakistan.

Sadly, Mullahs played a major role in destroying Pakistan`s image at international level. Al-Qaida`s terrorism is another story........

Dear Arjunm,

Look... I don`t wish to impose my vision by force... I believe that the state ought to be secular or what I mean by it atleast: inclusive and pluralistic... I am willing to work towards it through a process...

If the rest of Paki-land wants the Islamization ... then they can do it following a constitutional process which requires them to allow religious and political freedoms to others ... beyond that they may Islamize all that they want my friend- it is their right to choose a system of government of their choice.

Hope you understand where I am coming from...

``Is Pakistan really progressing?’`` The answer is yes. Pakistan has seen the worst type of bankruptcy and then raised its foreign reserves to 12 billion dollars. What do you call this? Isn’t this less than a miracle?``

Re:
After more than three years of living abroad, I recently got a chance to visit Pakistan. I do not know where these billion dollars are being stored, I could not see any difference in the life of ordinary Pakistanis and they do not seem to benefit from what the author has referred to as “economic boom”. People of Pakistan are poor as always. Yes, I definitely observed that military personnels now travel in bigger cars and their behaviour towards ``less worthy civilians” has deteriorated further. Ordinary people living in Rawalpindi/Islamabad are now made to suffer a lot more often because of persistent road blockades when Mushraff or some other VIP is travelling. Now one sees a military man sitting in a post where, by any reason, a civilian should be. If “economic boom” exists it may have occurred with the bank accounts of military personnel. Could the author tell me where should I see to find the referred “miracle”? Has the author noticed that a day before his article has appeared many hundreds of the citizens of Pakistan living in Faisalabad have been hospitalized, many of those have died, because of drinking water mixed with sewerage. A military captain rapes a lady doctor who is then forced to leave the country and nothing is done against the rapist. Do you still think that a “miracle” is somehow is still happening in my ill-fortunate homeland Pakistan.

#9 by Mantolives on May 20, 2006 11:24pm PT


We need to support the constitution and the supremacy of the constitution.


sure..why don`t you get the all the pakis who think like you and go to El-Presidente`s palace..I`m thinking your group should fit in a cab..

The rest of Pakiland wants the Islamization of paki laws...like what the paki minister has promised..get over it..

Re: # 9

Mr Manto,

supremacy of constitution is very noble. But there was a quote from a famous New York police Commisioner deposing before the Senate ``Every time I have to choose between protecting my fellow citizens over (following the constitution) I shall do so each time, every time and always and if it means shooting criminal scum like the mad dogs they are I shall do so (and make my officers do the same) once, twice and every time, and Sirs I challenge you to do something about it``.

In America the Senate is a very powerful body but this time it chose discretion over valour. Even the American SC chose not to take up the challenge.

More than constitution it is how we feel about our fellow citizens. Ours is the world longest constitution. A fat lot of good it has done the average Bhartiya and indeed in some ways it has even become an impediment in Justice.

Man is inherently selfish or let us elevate him and say has self interest. But till there is enlightened self interest there can be no progress. America`s rise is precisley because fo this enlightened self interest.

I`ll quote you an example a friends Mama has 120 acres of Land in Bihar he is a Bhumihar by caste. He entered into an agreement with a Sardar that I will lease you 20 acres we will share costs in the ratio 2:1 (2 for Sardar and 1 for him) and divide profits on Bantedari (sharing). This went on for three years and both made good money. Sardar noticed that the other 100 acres which were worked by Khet Mazdoors were not doing well due to poor farming practices(indeed he earned twice from sardar than the rest of the land). Sardar told him let me teach your khet mazdoor farming but you will have to do baantedari with them. Bhumihar went mad with anger and nearly shot at the Sardar. Later he apologised and said these are low cast people and I lost my cool with you as you proposed that I do sharing with them implies equality with them that is unacceptable. Sardar got angry walked out on the agreement leaving crops standing half matured. Guess by how much the yield fell by 90% as no one knew how to do the intensive cultivation the Sardar practised.

Now the post script. From the money he saved Sardar brought land in interior Rohtas district for a song. He taught farmers better crop management and helped them treble income. Today he is Pradhan of the village a Jat Sardar pradhan in Bihar a miracle indeed. The Bhumihar had to sell of all his land to marry of his daughters and support his extravagant lifestyle(dowries in this community being very high), but is unrepentant. We have to stop being Bhumihar and become like Sardar.

When we feel for one another we are less likely to screw them. When we are less likely to screw our fellow mates we want the government to punish wrongdoers who do so and if not the government then at least there is a social estrangment from them.

Any code even something as harsh as Pakhtunkhawli is aceptable as long as it is applied uniformly or approximately uniformly. Any code will fail if it does not apply uniformly.

Constitution is what we choose to make out of it. When the litmus test is how wrong I can do as a measure of power then refer reply to Shri Siddiqui not even the Mahdi, 12th Imam, Second coming of Jesus or Kalki Bhagwan will not help us.

Possibly that is why Mo said this and no ``Mo``re.

Regards
Sanatani

And for god`s sake you guys are lucky you have a cult following of a prophet even if self styled not the nauseating stink of cult of pathetic Humans like Gandhi, Nehru and Neo Gandhi`s or Lohia, JP and Yadavs or of Mao, Lenin and Stalin as it happens in our dear motherland. Maybe this is where the rightist erred they should have started a cult of Veerji, Doctorji and Guruji (That being Savarkar, Hedgewar and Golwalkar).

Re: # 2

Shri Siddiqui,

if point no 2 is correct I pity your nation.

You Muslims talk a lot about Khatam-e-Nabiwat (i.e end of prophethood) but then keep on inventing prophets (Upar Allah neeche...... [fill in the blanks Jinnah, Liaqat, Maudoodi, Mush etc]). Now do not start on Hindus hamare mein har ma ka yaar Bhagwan ban jaata hai no Khatam e Bhagwaniyat.

While criticism for its sake is ridiculous and counter productive, I am surprised that his various acts of ommision and commission starting from Kargil (forget the misadventure or casualties I ask his action to be brought into question w.r.t. a specific event namely of disowning his dead comrade in arms) to Attacks on fellow citizens in Baluchistan (the list is long and you would know it better than me) are not being questioned by a large segment of society and sorry to say but can you promote ``Progressive thinking`` by using Heli gun ships against fellow citizens. And unlike 1970`s Baluchi`s are not asking for independence merely more autonomy and share of revenue and no to colonisation from Punjab (I think Indian Punjoos are more enterprising in colonisation Tandoori Chicken, Salwar Kameez and Bhangra and guess what the rest of India is so stupid (or rather enamoured) it is not even complaining).

B.T.W as a post script I may add I hate the word progressive due to the fact it is associated with Commie traitors in my country so the long tirade.

I may have my Issues with islam and Mo but he was right on ending nabiwat. No more nabis are coming and neither is the 12th Imam (sorry shias) you are following islam (out of love, compulsion, birth take your pick) it has a certain code do`s and dont`s, get the famous Ijma amongst yourself (the only way to do so is democracy and acceptance of the same by everyone on what is a majority decision[and god forbid not tolerance]) but believe me there will be no Park Chung Hee`s in the Indian Subcontinet the same is not wired into our genetic code. The saviours of Pakistan and for that matter India (and I hate to say and admit it as I hate the hyphenation of our two countries and rubbish about being one people) will be the common citizens.

For India at least I can say one thing the biggest politician is the common citizen esp of the middle class (vaise in case you are non resident Paki ask your relatives how much they pay for a gas cylinder if I know correctly it is twice that of India as the GoP does not subsidise LPG for its ``very poor middle class`` citizens) the day he decides to look beyond his nose that day the Motherland will progress.

Regards
Sanatani