Prisoner of Conscience or Conscious Prisoner?

This does belong here. It was the post number 10 below and was deleted only on this board, while all other boards continue to carry it.
Click

Removing this mirror again would not only augment the ugliness but would also result in a crisis of creeping conscience.

``Yeh bijli raakh kr jaaegi, teray pyaar ki dunyaa
Naa phirr too jee sakay gaa, aur naa tujhh ko maut aaegi``--mubarak begum

Now let the fun begin.

Re: # 56
Okay to hit 350+ let`s start with discussing a nice chateaubriand medium rare, followed by glass of red and then Khamkwa will provide dessert.

#55 yeah...we tried to discuss ferzana but looks like that topic is also a passe.

Re: # 54
Vesuviusji
Not enough meat to fight over. V.P. Singh has been passe for a long time. Will you resurrect him?

... the silence on this article from 1st june 2006 clearly proves the chowkies shallow character. they used to fight amongst themselves to interact on FV articles and a minimum of 300 interacts on an average was par for course...yet #53 seems to be set in stone as of june 1, 2006 at 6:27 pm PT...the day the editor bade her goodbye...not even known side-kicks have bothered to resurrect this article...reminds me of pompeii... a sad reflection on FP interactors...

ps to #51,
I will admit to one thing.......a lot of self-proclaimed Muslim leaders and Mullah Yadavs, Congressi type ``secular`` leaders exploit the muslim masses and bring more infamy and suffering to the Muslims

re#51,
Hasan sahib,
Although you have tried to .... ....I am afraid you haven`t understood me/us.....I wish things are that simple....as you describe...

{{you should try to cultivate consciously the serenity and understanding of an 80% majority }}}



You should give credit to ``the 18% minority`` for this lack of ``serenity and understanding`` amongst Hindus.........either you haven`t read my posts #46 and #47 and my previous posts or you are unable (unwilling? hopefully not) to understand the gravity of Hindu grievances.


There is a (valid) perception amongst Hindus that despite so much of their good will ...after 60 years..muslims are muslims first and.........Indians may be a distant next.......They came out in massive numbers to protest Bush visit.......I wish 1% of that crowd turned out to protest when some Pakis hijacked Indian Airlines flight and stabbed a newly wed bride-groom. And what did GWB do to India or Indian Muslims? If anything he
used to be full of praise of Indian Muslims...he went back fully chastised.


{{{{{{{You like me love to criticize the Muslims -- now that doesn`t make you a Hindu communalist because you also criticize the Hindus – even though not as much...}}}}}}}

You have raised the same issue several times. Myself, swarrier, and others have addressed this repeatedly, but unfortunately you raise this again.

Casteism and other societal evils are within the community.. we are talking about Hindu vs Muslims issues........ Gujarat riots, Babri Masjid demolition, (attempted) text book revisions..what else do you have?

Despite enormous provocations from Pakistan, BD and internally from intimidatory, identity politics overwhelming majority of Hindus remained secular..........what do we get in return?

PAK-
Relentless jehadi terrorism...eternal hostility..... from Pakistan.........look at this board ..except for you and Salim Bhai I haven`t seen any Paki saying a word of praise for India.....the most disgusting is the attitude that India and Pak are same or India is worse.
If you had 14% Hindu population and if you had a Hindu President (for propaganda sake)..we`ll be interested in Paki opinion on Gujarat riots.

BD-
Ethnic cleansing, ongoing Hindu genocide......we will rather be beggars than let gas pipe line go thru BD to India..we won`t give transit facilities to ``Hindu`` India

IM-
India should vote on an international (IRAN) issue not based on its national security concerns, its own benefits, but based on communal Islamist feelings....and this ``friend`` of India had offered its entire Airforce to Pakistan during the 1971 war..........

Bharath miaN -- you are a good man -- you should try to cultivate consciously the serenity and understanding of an 80% majority -- not the anxiety and insecurity of an 18% minority....

to answer your question --``My contention is FV has different thresholds and different sets of rules for muslims and Hindus `` -- your contention may be more apparent than real -- because FV is a member of a minority...

.....FV is not a communalist Muslims just the same way you are not a communalist Hindu.

You like me love to criticize the Muslims -- now that doesn`t make you a Hindu communalist because you also criticize the Hindus – even though not as much....:)

Re#49
My contention is FV has different thresholds and different sets of rules for muslims and Hindus ....Her condemnation of public display of religiosity of all religions does not absolve her.other.........anyways ......we are not making much progress on the FV front............


About philosophy...the vedantic philosophy is very simple........explore yourself and seek truth for yourself.........you don`t have to believe in any set of rules........how much freer can you get than this? You don`t like this philosophy also?

I have seen your post mocking at Hindu worship of stones, rivers, etc. Hindu belief is pantheism ....I am sure you know this .........

A person can be good or bad irrespective of what religion he is born into. I am not saying all monotheistic persons are evil......but an illiterate good human being who does no harm to another human being (even if he worships stones and rivers or a million idols) is better than the monotheistic Mohamed Atta who flew into WTC and.......................... Zeena here who posts every other day that there is no religious discrimination whatsoever in her Islamic Republic.

#47 actually its only the rituals in religions is what i like, pujas, urs, . the philosophy is what i find suspect. so processions of all kinds are fun, if we allow commies rasta-roko, a colorful ganesh-festival once a year is just great. if FV were in NYC, she would likely complain about nuisance due to Macys parade and FBI harassment of mosque-attendies. i guess this relates in some strange way to VP singh..

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Re: # 45
Jang,
I know you are a neutral man on this issue.

You (probably) and me don`t care for Ganesh Chathurthi processions....I practice no damn rituals whatsoever.........but some Hindus do......and .only in India a minority displays so much aggression and intimidation........


for example I am sure you are familiar with Muslims against processions with beating drums in front of Mosques.....apparently muslims in Singapore have no such problems........

Shall we collect tax from all Indians and pay Haj subsidies type of allowances to poor Hindus in Kerala to perform Amarnath Yatra or pay for train fare to Varanasi???
shall we pay Christians in Christians in Kerala to visit Holy Land?..............
If any one proposes this in India he will be instantly labeled a communalist and Muslim hater.

You do all these............and a lot of more ....................and STILL NOT ENOUGH........NOT ENOUGH............on top of this ..........OF ALL PEOPLE PAKIS WILL TALK ABOUT GUJARAT RIOTS AT THE UN!!

All I want you to do is to look at objectively the sources of Hindu resentment.....if more Indians including muslims address these issues Modi will have to pack his bags and leave.....Prof Bandookwala`s recent piece on Indian muslims addressed some of these issues......except he played the typical victim role and whined quite a bit.

Re: # 44

{{{{{{a memeber of an 80% MINORITY speaking to a member of an 18% MAJORITY}}}}}


Nasah sahib,
Thanks...I couldn`t have said it better.......that`s EXACTLY how a large number of Hindus feel ......and THAT is what sustains R wing politics in India........


I am against identity politics (religious, caste) of all types........unfortunately in India secularism SELECTIVELY means Hindu bashing, encouraging and appeasing muslim intimidation.

To give you an example a south Indian leader said the word ``Hindu`` means thief. He is a celebrated ``secular`` leader (adored by Muslims of course).

And I give credit where it is due.......for example I have seen more tolerance/ sympathy in your posts than that of Zeena.

Regards,

#42 bharat, i dont see any collective pride in islamism from her. she claims to fight for her ``community``, ergo, has sympathy for the causes the community seems to support. she often times has said that she holds no brief for islam pe se. she is just not comfortable (or fearful) with hindu (and sometimes indian) pride, ganesh puja and such displays of collective hinduism. if indians think a bombay musical on bradway is cool, she will find it derogatory.

she had however tried to get a variety of writers..surely more left than others but that may be because right writers are less available.

``But you are a hypocrite and a pretender.....
.................you are a muslim communalist who fools around as a secularist.....

.............who believes Hindus don`t have any collective identity or should not have any collective identity.

..... who believes Hindus of the subcontinent have no grievances or more importantly should not have any grievances........

Such hypocrisy has lots of market potential in India... you will do well...in this I have to agree with your flatterers.``(barath)


a memeber of an 80% MINORITY speaking to a member of an 18% MAJORITY.......:)

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Re: # 40

{{{{{{jihad against pride in hinduism}}}}}}}

but she is all for collective pride in Islamism....she is all for muslims coming out in large

numbers to protest GWB. She is all for intimidation..........to force the rest of the Indians

on deciding the venue of his address................................................

Would they have protested if W had invaded N. Korea? or did they protest against

American cruise missiles slamming Belgrade in defence of Bosnian Muslims?

True Koranic teachings......if your brother is not a muslim kill him ...but fight on behalf of a a far away muslim.


{{{{{{{{{she found some justification in blowing up of bamiyan buddhas}}}}}}}

true..........and she finds solace in raging against Kashmiri Pundits.....in the Wolves vs Lambs story go for the Wolves.........cheer them and their sponsors across the border..............typical Arundhathi Roy type univeral humanism of ``south asian`` shtyle.................


{{{{{{{{{however, she never hid this}}}}}}}}

Exactly........that`s why she has a huge potential.......you bet.

re#33 by Zeena on May 31, 2006 9:21pm PT
{{{{{{bharath

Farzana is fair, honest and the most balanced writer that I have ever seen}}}}


LOL :-)))))

No comments on rest of your rants........I am very familiar with your standards!

since this board is more about ferzana...she never claimed to be unbiased in her writings or editorial judgement (case in point, all the articles from Behl). she always stated that she will use whatever material available to fight her jihad against pride in hinduism and indian jingoism. at times she even found green tiles in public bathrooms as a proof of hindu pathalogy and insult to muslims. and offcourse she found some justification in blowing up of bamiyan buddhas.

however, she never hid this.

Zeena,

You wound me. I am no ordinary hindu jihadi. I am now, thanks to Mandal II, an active ``upper caste`` hindu jihadi (where`s that thumbs up wala icon when you need it?)

the exchange is taking off at a tangent as usual. Any way, 37 posts and not a word in favor of Vishy-Vashy

kedarnathji, burpindhar and all of you hindu jihadies.

cop1 is my other id. I am not scared to admit that. I have all the guts to admit that.

Now come and fight with me.

#34
kedarnnthji

Yes, I BELIEVE Farzana Versey is a fair, balanced, secular, brilliant and genius writter ever in India and Pakistan.

Not only that Farzana will be a leading anchor woman in the subcontinent. Just wait and see, this is my prediction.


On the other hand, a bunch of you guys are in fact(Hindu or Muslim Jehadies in secular clothings).

You people are nasty and mean towards Farzana for NO reason. If you can call her Jihadi, then who else is left?

Calling Farzana Jihadi is an open proof who is Jihadi and who is not.

Obviously you are Hindu Jihadi(if you are Hindu) or (Muslim Jihadi if you are muslim), b/c of your approach towards Farzana, who is the most braodminded person I have ever seen.

Whoever is falsely accusing Farzana of being Jihadi is himself Jihadi . You remind me of my nursery rhyme , called little red riding hood.


burpinder

You are also another Hindu jihadi who stalks me wherever I go. How many times have I told you to stop stalking me thread to thread with your nonsense.

Now, all Hindu jihadies will gang up against me. Well, well, I do not care for anyone of you here.

Yes, I do care for Farzana and that is the reason I am on this board. Otherwise no one of you is able to interact. My standard is way too high for interacting with Hindu Jihadies like you.

Who have ntohing positive to contribute, same old bigotry, same old prejudices.

Now, come and attack me with your bigotries , you Hindu Jihadies I am ready to fight with all of you alone. I am strong enough to tackle all of you single handedly. You sissies, come fight with me.

Re: # 28

Promise?

#33 by Zeena on May 31, 2006 9:21pm PT

If you think Farzana is a very balanced secular person then I have the Brooklyn Bridge on sale for you. Maybe by Pakistani standards she is a balanced secular person but then you people don`t know any better. Bharath correctly described her. I have an acronym to describe the likes of her JISC (Jehadi in secular clothing).

Farzana darling, why are you so incensed about people saying nasty things about Vish Poison Singh. Worse things have been said about Narendra Modi on this forum but somehow you have always ignored it or maybe even condoned it. Yeah! anybody who screws Hindus is okay but not if they screw others.

bharath

Farzana is fair, honest and the most balanced writer that I have ever seen.

Do not falsely accuse her out of your own bigotry.

On the contrary you are bigot to call Farzana a bigot.

Farzana is everything BUT bigot or narrowminded. Farzana is never a hypocrite and pretender.

Why will she pretend? She will pretend , what for?

You must be out of your mind.

You are the biggest pretender, bigot and hypocrite.

Ms.FV,
You wrote ``you need to get back at the neighbouring country with even more fervour``.

Is there any wonder Pakis/ Muslims are fawning at your feet ..............singing your glory? You persist with your hypocritical attempt to portray Indians/ Hindus as jingoistic against the ``innocent`` jehadis next door!! let your heart bleed for them...

Not a bone in my body wants to hate Indian muslims and I am no Hindutvadi... India belongs to all Indians irrespective of their religion or any other divisive identities..I wish people focus less on divisive issues......and focus on economic development and in the building of prosperous country for every one.

But you are a hypocrite and a pretender.....
.................you are a muslim communalist who fools around as a secularist.....

.............who believes Hindus don`t have any collective identity or should not have any collective identity.

..... who believes Hindus of the subcontinent have no grievances or more importantly should not have any grievances........

Such hypocrisy has lots of market potential in India... you will do well...in this I have to agree with your flatterers.

Farzana dear

I know you are a big name. I know you are brilliant. I know one day you will be a leading anchor woman in the whole subcontinent.

But, I still wish to see you around with us, not famous people.

regards
T

Farzana -- when I saw that interview -- I could see that it is time for you to say goodbye to Chowk editorship -- because you have bigger fish to fry in Indian journalism – you do have a knack for sharp bold interviews – great question and great follow ups -- my best wishes on your new expeditions and newer higher mountains to conquer.....

....one day you will be a big name and a pride and joy of subcontinental journalism --

I will miss you....

FV, good luck with your new project.

Farzana
If you will leave. I will also leave.

A digression:

Thanks folks. I am on a hiatus from my post as editor of Chowk.

I have a few things to say, which could mean nothing much

Farzana

I know this post is irrelevant. Please do not delete.

I am just asking you not to leave editorialship. Please don`t go.

Re: # 24
harimau:

ROFL.. your responses are funny to read.. :-)

Ref masanamuthu #22

[....these traitors have done more harm to Indian upper castes in the past 80 years then the entire foreign invasions of last 24 centuries.........]

Nope, the original wording ``..these traitors have done more harm to India in the past 80 years then the entire foreign invasions of last 24 centuries.........: is absolutely correct.

How many of these Masanamuthus and Karuppayees go on to earn a PhD from a major university? How many actually do any worthwhile research? How many have earned the FRS?

In China, the party henchmen used to get promoted while the hardworking real scientists were kept down but at least the State provided them with a job and a lab for them to carry on their work. So, the real scientist in China would carry out his work because he loved it. In India, the jobs are restricted to Masanamuthus, Sudalaikkannus, etc., with the result that we still have to import (this, after making wild claims about the wonderful educational system in India) ordinary port workers from Singapore to run the Tuticorin port and from London as advisers to the Madras Port Trust.

You have no shame! But you never did. After all, did your people ever go to a Tamil school? No, you b!tch about the brahmins learning the Vedas by heart for 2000 years and not teaching it to you, as if that is what is giving them an advantage in modern society.

Reasoning is not the strong suit of the Karuppannasamys.

the real ``third voice`` that keeps gettign ignored is that of the working-middle class. just look at the way the railways are used as a personal jagirs..while ferzanas sweating co-citizens toil to work from kalyan and virar (which is represented by govinda the MP) while actually buying tickets and passes into railway coffers, and getting budgets for widening of pedestrian bridges stuck in dilli, shri laloo prasad keeps adding new trains from patna to bhagalpur..(up-bihar is incidetally the densest railway corridor). the working, rate-paying middle-class is not a vote-bank, and continues to get ignored, now even by the BJP. the only way they will have their say is by forming-funding an NGO to buy politicians in the indian democracy. its either that or narendra modi.

#21:

.these traitors have done more harm to Indian upper castes in the past 80 years then the entire foreign invasions of last 24 centuries.........

Corrected.. :-)

let incompetent Dalit doctors diagnose and cure these basturds.....these traitors have done more harm to India in the past 80 years then the entire foreign invasions of last 24 centuries.........

#17
Praful Bidwai is a known Congress pitthoo, no unbiassed opininions can be expected of him

#15 by FarzanaVersey

This is merely hot air, for you will be the first ones to rush to Bush to condemn the ‘martyred leaders’ who you so hate because you need to get back at the neighbouring country with even more fervour.

I`m sure you realized Ranjit was being rhetorical. In any case, do you mean to imply that Indians have been getting back at Pakistan for no reason? If 9 times (or even 5 or 6 times) out of 10 your neighbor tried to rob your house, wouldn`t you doubt him the 10th time too, even though the robber could have been someone else?

Sorry, #17 is Praful Bidwai`s column reproduced from rediff dated yesterday...

Re: Farzana Versey
``Do non-political movements have no voce? I do not agree. Look at the way the doctors are going about their anti-quota stir. I have been seeing news reports/discussions and it appears to be an organised agitation (some have even accused it of being ‘event management’ organisations coming in, and I would agree – they are being provided with free bottled water from a particular company, their banners are being printed free by a press, caps, T-shirts…they are the new endorsement messiahs).``

The complete conspiracy theory, expounded by a master of the art....

The anti-quota stir is misguided

May 30, 2006


As students from some of India`s most privileged educational institutions continue their protests against reservations for socially disadvantaged OBCs (Other Backward Classes), it becomes clear that the agitation has not been a spontaneous, but a highly organised and orchestrated phenomenon.

At least three groups of people have played a role in sustaining it: upper caste-dominated professional guilds like the Indian Medical Association; captains of industry and owners of private colleges, who stridently oppose any extension of Dalit-Adivasi (Scheduled Castes-Scheduled Tribes) reservations; and Bhartiya Janata Party politicians.

Weighty evidence for this comes both from the participation in the agitation by executives of Information Technology companies, and from the disclosure that `event management` specialists -- who charge hefty fees -- were hired to foment protests in Mumbai. Evidently, many tycoons decided to kill the very idea of affirmative action in educational institutions -- so it can`t be extended to the private sector, as the government proposes to do.

Those who run private capitation-fee colleges also have a huge stake, running into thousands of millions of rupees, in opposing affirmative action. A year`s delay in implementing quotas means that private institutions, with an intake of over 534,000 students, could make landfall profits of the order of Rs 10 billion (Rs 1,000 crores) to Rs 25 billion (Rs 2,500 crores) by selling seats which would have gone to OBCs.

Regrettably, even the National Knowledge Commission played a partisan role in the whole business. First, off its own bat, it opposed OBC reservations and publicised its opposition through its majority (6:2) report. Then, two members decided to quit, adding more grist to the anti-affirmative action mill. They couldn`t have been unaware that their action would raise the pitch of the crusade against affirmative action in favour of disadvantaged groups per se.

The agitation put at stake not just the fate of Human Resources Development Minister Arjun Singh`s limited proposal to introduce 27 per cent reservation for OBCs in all central universities and institutions like the Indian Institutes of Technology and of Management. It attacked the fundamental principle of affirmative action itself. This would have jeopardised the hard-earned gains of India`s social reform movement.

Had the agitation succeeded, India would have turned its back on the imperative of correcting the distortions and inequalities caused by unbalanced growth over the past decade or more of neoliberal or `free market` policies.

The inspiration behind the anti-affirmative action agitation had nothing to do with promoting the public interest or any universal collective or national objectives. Rather, it was driven by a highly individualistic urge to defend and extend privilege against the common good. The bulk of the agitating students are children of the new middle class which burgeoned under the inequality-enhancing, skewed and dualistic economic policies launched in 1991.

Many of them don`t see the unprecedented prosperity and rising incomes of a small minority -- namely, themselves -- as the result of certain larger economic processes and forces, such as higher rates of savings, the Indian state`s elitist macroeconomic and taxation policies, or globalisation, which has given rise to new technologies and divisions of labour, thus creating new opportunities in IT and related services.

Even less are they aware that their own prosperity is the obverse of, and rooted in, the squalor of the majority and the further squeezing of India`s most backward regions and the fragile economies of the labouring poor. Rather, they attribute it to their own `talent`, `merit` and individual initiative. They oppose affirmative action because they want to perpetuate the status quo and grab the opportunities it offers -- to the exclusion of the vast majority.

Supporters of the anti-affirmative action agitation take refuge behind many specious (or half-valid) arguments and dubious data: for instance, that affirmative action will kill or devalue `merit`; that Other Backward Classes and even Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes, are already fairly well-represented in many professions, according to a 1999 National Sample Survey Organisation estimate; and that in any case, the benefits of educational quotas in institutions will inevitably be cornered by the `creamy layer` of the OBCs, which is already politically privileged or affluent.

The `merit` argument is bogus, in fact disingenuous, especially in a society based on inheritance of private property, and privilege related to birth, which largely determine one`s social position. Property inheritance means that the affluent are at a vastly different, higher starting point from the disadvantaged. Merit makes sense only when it measures the distance between the starting point and the end point. Most upper-caste people enjoy unfair advantage over OBCs or lower castes primarily because of their disparate starting points. Merit is only one, usually small, component of their overall achievement.

Merit is not easy to measure, quantify or compare. A single `objective test` is a disputable measure. One`s score in it often depends upon familiarity with the type of questions asked, time management and speed, rather than comprehension. Merit can only have a limited place in a public-oriented policy of admission and recruitment. In a large country like India, other criteria are equally relevant: for instance, gender, ethnic and regional balance, and diversity.

The fundamental point is that a person born in a highly educated savarna family will have a totally different universe of knowledge, social contacts and elite acceptability -- and wholly different access to information about the availability of study courses, colleges and private tutorial institutions, career options, professional advice, etc. S/he can always call `Uncle` so-and-so in the civil service, judiciary or the medical profession to get useful tips.

Typically, such advantage outweighs even (small) differences of wealth and income. Past discrimination continues to produce inequality of opportunity even when there is no discrimination or exclusion at present. The critical issue is how to level the playing field so as to give genuinely equal opportunity to the disadvantaged.

Affirmative action is the best, if not only, solution to this problem. It can take many forms, including voluntary targets set by institutions and companies for recruitment of disadvantaged groups, special counselling and training, non-quantitative diversity promotion programmes, etc. Reservations, admittedly, are a rather blunt instrument with which to crack the problem. A case can be made out that in India we have used reservations as the sole form of affirmative action. But this should not be used to make the best the enemy of the good.

As for the `factual` argument cited by many affirmative action opponents, namely that OBCs have nearly the same level of representation as their population share in numerous professions, including in private sector jobs, the evidence from the NSSO is dubious. The NSSO is simply not equipped to identify hundreds of local caste groups accurately.

Caste identification is the job of highly specialised anthropologists, sociologists and historians familiar with caste configurations which vary from district to district. Neither self-ascription nor crude state government caste lists can be a substitute for this.

The NSSO data seems be of very poor integrity. This should be obvious from the fact that it estimates the SC/ST population at 28.5 per cent of the country`s total -- when the highest credible estimate is 23 per cent.

The `creamy layer` argument is certainly valid. Social and educational backwardness is a changing phenomenon. There is upward mobility among the OBCs. But it doesn`t follow that their upper layers will automatically corner quotas. They can and should be excluded from doing so along some of the criteria specified by the Supreme Court in the Mandal judgment. After all, only half of India`s OBCs (52 per cent of the total population) can get accommodated under the 27 percent quota. It is imperative to ensure that this is the lower half, not the upwardly mobile, relatively privileged layer.

It would be ideal in the long term if different institutions and governments could devise varying affirmative action formulae based upon a number of different criteria besides caste -- including gender, economic status of family, quality of schooling received by parents, backwardness of region of origin, etc. Delhi`s Jawaharlal Nehru University has a decade-old admissions policy which gives extra points to OBCs, women and regional backwardness over and above a candidate`s entrance examination score. This has significantly raised JNU`s OBC intake.

Some social scientists, including JNU`s Purshottam Aggarwal, and Delhi University`s Satish Deshpande, with Yogendra Yadav, have proposed affirmative action formulae assigning different weights to these factors. Despite their drawbacks -- controversially opening up the SC/SC quota, or providing an inadequate boost to OBCs -- these proposals should be seriously debated at length. However, the topmost priority last fortnight was to beat back the challenge posed by the anti-quota agitation, which opposed the very principle of affirmative action.

The United Progressive Alliance government did well to uphold the principle and stick to the 27 per cent OBC quota. Wisely, it didn`t resort to the undesirable device of phased implementation. But it will have to increase the total number of seats in central educational institutions by 54 per cent within a year, at an estimated expense of Rs 80 billion (Rs 8,000 crores). This is a formidable, but worthwhile, task. One can only hope that the upper castes accept reservations in the spirit of justice and of creating a caring-and-sharing society.

Ref#15

Dear Farzana

I fully agree with you. The mad dog Ranjit talking about killing ex PM or Congress leader is just out of his mind.

He should get converted Islam and migrate to Pakistan or Afganistan. He is bad man.

The idea was primarily to discuss the validity of the concept of a Third Front. In these times of convenient coalitions, I do not think it can play a role politically. It can and will be used as a stopgap for ambitious people on the make. That is the reason for disillusionment.

The first time it happened, there was a need for it – (I count the Janata Party and even the JP movement as important third voices too).

Do non-political movements have no voce? I do not agree. Look at the way the doctors are going about their anti-quota stir. I have been seeing news reports/discussions and it appears to be an organised agitation (some have even accused it of being ‘event management’ organisations coming in, and I would agree – they are being provided with free bottled water from a particular company, their banners are being printed free by a press, caps, T-shirts…they are the new endorsement messiahs).

I am a bit disappointed here by the cursory dismissal (instead of providing any solid arguments) of “killing” ex PMs, that too by a Pakistani militant outfit. This is merely hot air, for you will be the first ones to rush to Bush to condemn the ‘martyred leaders’ who you so hate because you need to get back at the neighbouring country with even more fervour.
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Vish Poison Singh is the worst Prime Minister India ever had. During his tenure of less than a year, we had this Mandal nonsense dividing the country on caste lines. The country had become virtually bankrupt when he had left office and India had to mortgage its gold because the foreign exchange reserves were next to nothing. Yet the worst thing that jackass and his cabinet did was give an impetus to the Kashmir insurgency by their weak-kneed response. When the Home Minister, Mufti Mohammed Sayeed`s (current CM) daughter was kidnapped, his government gave in to the terrorists` demands and this foreover labelled India as a soft-state. A cruel irony that the same woman (Rubiya Sayeed) is now sympathizing with the terrorists. This action had set a precedent and later the BJP government had to concede the terrorists` demands when the Indian Airlines plane was hijacked.

Farzana, why did you not ask him why his government was so weak-kneed. Why did they put their personal interests above the national interests?

#11 by warpster on May 30, 2006 6:36pm PT

I am not a Pakistani but let me answer the first two questions.

Yes, there is the concept of caste amongst Pakistani Muslims though probably not on such a large scale as in India. The recent rape case of Mukhtaran Mai was caste related since her brother who was of a lower Gujjar caste was accused of walking with a girl from the higher Matsoi caste.

My brother, a doctor, had gone to Pakistan in the mid-80s to give his ECFMG in Lahore. The Pakistanis were very warm and hospitable people and one of the persons he met was a former Minister. The guy asked my brother his caste and on being told that he was a Brahmin the guy was very friendly and remarked to my brother, ``hum Rajput hain. In neechee jaat walon se (refering to Jats) jyada milte-ghulte nahin hain`` (We are Rajputs. We don`t mix around much with these lower castes (Jats)). He also found out that in the Pakistan Army Rajputs comprise a large percentage of senior officers and Jats the lower ranks. Rajputs proudly flash their names like Chauhan, Rathode, etc.

If you can get to the archived section of Pakistan`s Defence Journal (it is now a paid site), there is an interview with Brigadier Imtiaz Wahraich. He proudly states in the interview that he is a Jat implying that he rose to that rank despite being a Jat.

In Goa where I trace my ancestry, casteim is more prevalant amongst Catholics than Hindus. In Punjab too, casteism amongst Sikhs is strong and there are more Hindu-Sikh marriages on caste lines than intra-Sikh or intra-Hindu crossing the caste lines. Amrinder Singh Punjab CM and Natwar Singh are both brother-in-law despite being Sikh and Hindu because both are from Jat Royal families.

some questions for pakistani interactors who may have info:

1. Is the concept of ``caste`` known amongst pakistani muslims? That is, do pak muslims tend to marry within their clan/caste ?

2. Would people recognize someone as belonging to a ``lower`` caste, given the surname or other cues ?

3. During partition, my understanding is that many well-to-do (higher caste??) muslims were able to migrate to pakistan... Does this imply that the percentage of muslims in pakistan from upper class/caste background is much higher than among Indian muslims?

4. Is there any notion of reservations or quotas in education/employment in pakistan to offset disadvantages in background ?

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

My uncle once told me how when VP Singh was the PM, all cars in Delhi carried a sticker > ``Dont blame me , I didn`t vote for VP``....

These ex-PMs are a nasty lot...having tasted the ultimate elixir, they are now content with no other post and hence spend their time being a general disruptive influence. Look at Deve Gowda screwing things up in Karnataka with his ``love letters`` and his dirty coalition politicking. And this specimen- the saviour of the lowest of the low. God save this country.

Why is that idiots in Delhi think that they can come up with one size fit it all policy for whole of India ?

Re:harimau#5

[....Now you know why I had no problems with the guys who shot up the Youth Congress meeting in Srinagar a week ago!....]

My congrats to the Lashkar-e-Toiba for doing something sensible. I wish they had killed all the Congress leaders and members in that meeting. That party should be wiped out from India.

I really wish someone would get rid of Arjun Singh. That guy is single handedly dividing the country up. It is tragic to see one man devastate a country, while no one will do anything about it. In any other country, Arjun Singh would have been shot and hanged by now.

Ref ranjit #4

[I have an appeal to make to the Lashkar-e-Toiba and Jaish-e-Muhammad. Please, please, kill some of our Indian politicians like Arjun Singh, VP Singh, entire Congress top brass, CPM leaders etc. We hindus dont have the balls to do it, but you guys can. If you do that, Indian public will openly come out and give Kashmir valley on a plate to Pakistan. Yes, for that kind of service to India, we will also give you the Padma Shri and Bharat Ratna awards for delivering India from these vultures.]

Now you know why I had no problems with the guys who shot up the Youth Congress meeting in Srinagar a week ago!

I have an appeal to make to the Lashkar-e-Toiba and Jaish-e-Muhammad. Please, please, kill some of our Indian politicians like Arjun Singh, VP Singh, entire Congress top brass, CPM leaders etc. We hindus dont have the balls to do it, but you guys can. If you do that, Indian public will openly come out and give Kashmir valley on a plate to Pakistan. Yes, for that kind of service to India, we will also give you the Padma Shri and Bharat Ratna awards for delivering India from these vultures.

Now I completely understand why Jinnah broke off from the Congress ba$tards and formed Pakistan. These Congress leaders are nothing more than dirty filthy dogs whose only job is to divide the subcontinent and its people in the name of caste, religion, language etc in order to grab power and enjoy ruling Delhi. They dont give a $hit about ruining millions of people`s lives and bringing destruction to the entire nation. Their heads should roll.

VP Singh is just as big a fraud as Arjun Singh, both belong to erstwhile royal families which have been supervising the maltreatment of the depressed classes over the centuries and now play vote bank politics for personal gain. Let either of these scoundrels give an iota of proof that their ancesters living on privy purses after lying prostate before the burra saheb did anything to alleviate the sufferings of the downtrodden in their prinicipalities. All the good work in uplift of the underprivileged was and is done by people who will die unsung heroes while these opportunist politicians will continue to hoodwink the nation, divide the people and pick up the pieces like hungry vultures. If I remember correctly, this gentleman was described a wimp by a journalist when he was PM, I think that is what he is.
I admire the writings of the author but regret she will be wasting so much syntax on an undeserving subject

Here is what Wikepedia has for him ...

He certainly sounds like a good man ... is he even needed with India ``already Shining`` and ``gleaming`` ??? Seems like he has contributed a lot in the past through his integrity ...

---

V. P. Singh From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Vishwanath Pratap Singh

Date of Birth: 25th June 1931
Place of Birth:Allahabad, U.P
Prime Minister of India Tenure Order:7th Prime Minister
Political party: Janata Dal
Took Office:2 December 1989
Left Office:10 November 1990
Predecessor:Rajiv Gandhi
Successor:Chandra Shekhar
Vishwanath Pratap Singh was the seventh Prime Minister of the Republic of India.

• 1 Early Career and Chief Minister
• 2 Cabinet Minister
• 3 In Opposition
• 4 Prime Minister
• 5 Aftermath

Early Career and Chief Minister

Entering local politics in Allahabad in the Nehru era, V.P Singh soon made a name for himself in the state Congress Party for his unfailing rectitude, a reputation that he would carry with him throughout his career.

He was handpicked by Indira Gandhi to serve as the Chief Minister of Uttar Pradesh in 1980, when the Congress came back to power after the Janata interregnum. As CM, he cracked down hard on the dacoity, or banditry, problem, that was particularly severe in the rural districts of the south-west. He received much favourable national publicity when he offered to resign following a self-professed failure to stamp out the problem, and again when he personally oversaw the surrender of some of the most feared dacoits of the area in 1983.

Cabinet Minister

Called to the Centre following Rajiv Gandhi`s massive mandate in the 1984 General Elections, he was appointed to the crucial post of Finance Minister, where he oversaw the gradual relaxation of the license Raj that Rajiv had in mind. He also gave extra power to the Enforcement Directorate of the Finance Ministry, which is the wing of the ministry charged with tracking down tax evaders. Following a number of high-profile raids on suspected evaders - including Dhirubhai Ambani - Rajiv was forced to sack him as Finance Minister, possibly because many of the raids were conducted on industrialists who had supported the Congress financially in the past. However, Singh`s popularity was at such a pitch now that only a sideways move was possible, to the Defence Ministry.

This might have been a mistake, since once ensconced in North Block, Singh began to investigate the notoriously murky world of defence procurement. After a while, word began to spread that Singh possessed information about the Bofors defence deal that could damage the Prime Minister`s reputation. Before he could act on it, he was dismissed from the Cabinet and, in response, quit the Congress and the Lok Sabha.

In Opposition

Together with associates Arun Nehru and Arif Mohammed Khan, Singh floated an opposition party named the Jan Morcha. He was re-elected to Lok Sabha in a bye-election from Allahabad defeating Anil Shastri. On 11 October 1988, the birthday of the original Janata coalition`s spiritual leader Jayaprakash Narayan, the Janata Dal was formed by merger of Jan Morcha, Janata Party, Lok Dal and Congress (S), in order to bring together all the centrist parties opposed to the Rajiv Gandhi government.

The Janata Dal fought the elections in 1989 after coming to an agreement with the right-wing Bharatiya Janata Party and the Communist Left Front that served to unify the anti-Congress vote under the banner of a grouping called the National Front. The three Opposition groupings earned a simple majority in the Lok Sabha and decided to form a government. The Communists and the BJP refused to serve in the government, preferring to support it from outside.

In a dramatic meeting in the Central Hall of Parliament on the 1st of December, V.P Singh proposed the name of Devi Lal as Prime Minister, in spite of the fact that he himself had been clearly projected by the anti-Congress forces as the `clean` alternative to Rajiv and their Prime Ministerial candidate. Devi Lal, a Jat leader from Haryana stood up and refused the nomination, and said that he would prefer to be an `elder uncle` to the Government, and that Singh should be PM. This last part came as a clear surprise to Chandra Shekhar, the former head of the erstwhile Janata Party, and Singh`s greatest rival within the Janata Dal. Shekhar, who had clearly expected that an agreement had been forged with Lal as the consensus candidate, stormed out of the meeting and refused to serve in the Cabinet.

Prime Minister

Singh held office for slightly less than a year, from December 2, 1989 - November 10, 1990.

He faced his first crisis within few days of taking office: terrorists kidnapped the daughter of his Home Minister, Mufti Mohammad Sayeed (Ex Chief Minister of Jammu and Kashmir). His government caved into the demand for releasing militants in exchange. Shortly thereafter, he appointed Jagmohan, a controversial former bureaucrat, as Governor of Jammu and Kashmir, on the insistence of the BJP, who were concerned that an insufficiently hard line was being taken with the separatist element in the state. Jagmohan subsequently inflamed opinion in the Valley when he ordered troops to fire on the funeral procession of the unofficial head of Kashmiri Islam, the Mirwaiz, and shortly thereafter the Kashmir insurgency began in earnest. In contrast, in Punjab, Singh replaced the hardline Siddhartha Shankar Ray as Governor with another former bureaucrat, Nirmal Kumar Mukarji, who moved forward on a timetable for fresh elections. Singh himself made a much-publicised visit to the Golden Temple to ask forgiveness for Operation Bluestar and the combination of events caused the long rebellion in Punjab to die down markedly in a few months.

Singh himself wished to move forward nationally on social justice-related issues and accordingly decided to implement the recommendations of the Mandal Commission which suggested the mandatory reservation of certain jobs in the administration for members of the historically disadvantaged Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes. This decision led to widespread protest in urban areas in North India.

Meanwhile the BJP was moving its own agenda forward: in particular, the Ram Janmabhoomi agitation, which served as a rallying cry for several radical Hindu organisations, took on new life. The party president, Lal Krishna Advani, toured the northern states on a rath - a bus converted to look like a chariot - with the intention of drumming up support. Before he could complete it, by reaching the disputed site in Ayodhya, he was arrested on Singh`s orders on the charges of disturbing the peace and fomenting communal tension. This led to the BJP`s suspension of support to the National Front government. Rather than face a no-confidence motion and lose, Singh resigned as PM.

Chandra Shekhar immediately seized the moment and left the Janata Dal with several of his own supporters to form the Samajwadi Janata Dal, or the Socialist People`s Party. Although he had a mere 64 MPs, Rajiv Gandhi, the leader of the Opposition, agreed to support him on the floor of the House so he won a confidence motion and was sworn in as Prime Minister. He lasted only a few months before Gandhi withdrew support and fresh elections were called.

Aftermath

Singh decided against contesting the new elections and retired from active politics. He spent the next few years touring the country speaking about matters related to issues of social justice, and painting. In the Deve Gowda and I.K. Gujral governments of the late 1990s, Singh acted as a sort of elder statesman and advisor for the successors to the National Front coalition. He was diagnosed with cancer in 1998 and ceased his public appearances.

When his cancer went into remission in 2003, he once again became a visible figure, especially in the many groupings that had inherited the space once occupied by his Janata Dal. Ironically, his caste-based social justice policies had caused the rise of parties like the Bahujan Samaj Party that were formed around caste identities; his own brand of populist socialism was thus squeezed out of the electoral marketplace. To remedy this, he re-formed the Jan Morcha in 2005, and began the slow process of aggregation of smaller parties in the North with a view to contesting the Uttar Pradesh vidhan Sabha elections scheduled for 2007.

Ferzy the 60-minute Wallace of Indian journalism! -- very incisive hard questions....!

.....did you hear your peer Amir Meer refused to recieve the APNS year`s best journalist award from Musharraf......

``In principle, I am unable to receive the award at the hands of a military dictator, who has on several occasions violated the constitution and has no respect for the country`s highest laws,`` Mir wrote to the APNS President Mir Shakil-ur- Rehman.

``But on contrary, the APNS has invited a military dictator as chief guest for distribution of awards, who has no respect for the basic principle of press freedom. Being a military dictator he neither believes in freedom of expression nor tolerates difference of opinion,`` Mir said in his letter.

``It will be a stain on my APNS award to receive it from a military dictator in an APNS function,`` he wrote.

Subcontinental journalism is definitely not embedded or inbedded with the generals and the politicians....

We would like you to one day interview the General and ask some really tough questions......why did he do that.....