Insurgents at the Gate

Re: # 18

nasah,

.......... everyone knows that the war is far from over, but you must admit that it is a good thing that we got rid of that nasty zarqawi .......... now, maybe, the other dead-enders will realize that they need to put down their guns and join the political process ........ if not, sooner or later they will all end up like this rat .........

masadi, urstruly and echoboom,

......... smile ! ....... it is a great day for mankind and civilization ........

#13 Ferozk writes <<< Masadi, the insurgents may have a cause and they may have a reason, but they are not angels and neither should their acts be condoned under a thin guise of hypocrisy justified as morality.>>>

There is a big difference between an offensive/aggressive war and an act of self-defense to counter that offensive. I have not defended the particulars of the actions of the insurgents as ``moral``, I have just pointed to the righteousness of their cause in liberating their homeland from foreign domination.

My post #6 that you refer to merely stated the obvious in fuzair`s and your posts, namely that insurgent tactics are to balme for luring the Americans to act the way they did in Haditha, you both were thereby taking the blame away from where it belonged and deflecting it to the other side. Further, there is no ``law of physics`` behind an insurgency as you and your friend were trying to imply to legitimize your post. Once a consensus is achieved on what can be described as ``moral`` or ``immoral`` and I used the widely advertised criteria of those that claim moral superiority, i.e. the American elite, judgments can be arrived at scientifically and logically. No amount of denying takes away from the soundness of this methodology.

Zarqawi the Iraqi `WMD` is dead -- BIG DEAL -- the clumsy bearded slob didn`t even know how to handle a Klashnikov --

this is called build up a mangy dog into a killer k9 -- shoot it -- and say hip hip hurray -- ``Mission Accomplished`` again -- -- the insurgency is over -- the insurgency is over -- we won -- we won! -- the SINS of Haditha are washed now! -- Haditha is dead....

....pathetic crazy Americans......

Re: # 13

``I cannot speak for Fuzair, but speaking for myself, there is no morality in war and to bring a sense of morality into a war and to judge the actions of the combattants on the basis of a morality, is a self-defeating proposition. ``

This is absurd. There is alsways a moral dimension to every war. Even an absolutely impartial observer can easily place the blame on the one who transgressed; all he has to do is to go back to the original sin.

There is a Persian proverb that says that that punch which comes to your mind after the fight is over, should be punched on your own nose. Meaning that in wars it is not the intentions that count much, it is the actions. The original sin in this case is that a helpless country was attacked and completely destroyed by in utter defiance of international law and the common human decency. That is the reason that the largest protests were made in those countries who took part in the aggression.

Instead of debating morality/immorality , the gora boot-licker scum would do well to invest in the bodybag industry before it is too late. The tailors & carpenters near the jacobabad airbase have already shown how dead-on they were ( Ha Ha Ha) [ as reported by a local].

The countdown a la Vietnam, the graveyard of the US thuggs, is on. Humiliation , defeat, and licking back its own vomit is foretold in their star-spangled palms.

Some super-power! lahaul-vila-Quwwat.

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http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/060706A.shtml

First Officer Announces Refusal to Deploy to Iraq


By Sarah Olson
t r u t h o u t | Interview

Wednesday 07 June 2006

Ehren Watada is a 27-year-old first lieutenant in the United States Army. He joined the Army in 2003, during the run-up to the Iraq war, and turned in his resignation to protest that same war in January of 2006. He expects to receive orders in late June. He is poised to become the first lieutenant to refuse to deploy to Iraq, setting the stage for what could be the biggest movement of GI resistance since the Vietnam War. He faces a court-martial, up to two years in prison for missing movement by design, a dishonorable discharge, and other possible charges. He says speaking against an illegal and immoral war is worth all of this and more. Journalist Sarah Olson spoke with Watada in late May about his reasons for joining the military, and why he wants out.

Sarah Olson: When you joined the Army in 2003, what were your goals?

Ehren Watada: 2003 was a couple of years after the terrorist attacks of 9/11. I had the idea that my country needed me and that I needed to serve my country. I still strongly believe that. I strongly believe in service and duty. That`s one of the reasons I joined: because of patriotism.

I took an oath to the US Constitution, and to the values and the principles it represents. It makes us strongly unique. We don`t allow tyranny; we believe in accountability and checks and balances, and a government that`s by and for the people. The military must safeguard those freedoms and those principles and the democracy that makes us unique. A lot of people, like myself, join the military because they love their country, and they love what it stands for.

Read the rest here

For all the lovely Hindus
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/5058840.stm

Many people all over the globe do not think that the Iraq war was justified. That it was an extension of past imperialistic policies of America. Even Bush was forced to admit that he made a mistake in deciding to go to war in Iraq. The West in general, has caused a lot of misery all over the globe in the Colonial era, and continues to practice its selfish agenda all over the globe. Much of the conflict we see today - Kashmir, Kurds/Sunnis/Shias, Israel etc. has roots in our colonial past.

Nobody is denying that (or should, at any rate). But times have changed. What used to be racist/supremacist/selfish agenda are now purely selfish agenda. Much of the current geopolitical strategies in the west are now decided in the boardrooms of multinationals. The races have mixed, and today greed decides most things. And world leaders have learned from the past. Now they want to leave honorable legacies. Rarely, idealism tempers some decisions, but most times it does not. The U.S. involvement in Somalia and Bosnia had little to do with projecting power or with greed.

What bothers me about this article, and about Masadi-types is that they use anything they can get their hands on, to push the Islamic agenda. What does spirituality have to do with all this? Why is it that these people use these wars etc. to push their Islamic agenda? The vast majority of people killed are innocent muslims, killed by fellow muslims by car bombs etc. Why is that right? How does that validate the peaceful image of the insurgents? Why, when an elected Government is now in place (a far better one than the Saddam regime), are these ``patriots`` killing innocent Iraqis?

Of course the line ``Our religion does not teach us to harm our prisoners`` takes the cake. This, after so many beheadings of prisoners on video. They are merely following the example of good old Mo` who beheaded 700 unarmed prisoners and sold their women and children into slavery.

Re: masadi # 6

What Fuzair and I are stating is the goals for which an insurgency is fought and the means by which it sustains its aims.

We never equated the aims of the insurgents or the reaction of the Americans to them on the basis of any morality.

I cannot speak for Fuzair, but speaking for myself, there is no morality in war and to bring a sense of morality into a war and to judge the actions of the combattants on the basis of a morality, is a self-defeating proposition.

Masadi, the insurgents may have a cause and they may have a reason, but they are not angels and neither should their acts be condoned under a thin guise of hypocrisy justified as morality. There are no angels in any war, because wars are fought by people who commit murder writ large and then seek to justify it under all sorts of reasons. There is no glory in war and neither should war be glorified under any illusions of a morality, because that is tantamount to justifying mass homocide also known as genocide.

Ciao

Re: # 10
Masadi, you think you have a free ticket to judge others’ motivations? Get off your high horse, because everyone can see right thru your bigotry without even a slight bit of effort. I hate fanatical Islam with a passion and make no qualms about it. The Islam of today is a fascist ideology and is needed as much as an overgrown appendicitis. You come here bitching about thousands of Iraqis dying at the hands of the Americans but when was the last time you spoke with as much passion about the massacre of Marsh Shias and gassing of Kurds (and over a million teenager Iranians killed – maimed by your hero Saddam, during the ten year Iran-Iraq war???). When you are tired of taking your frustrations off at Americans, go and see your own places and see how everyone (who is not follower of a garbage philosophy) is being treated in your pious lands. Did you hear about the verdict of a few days ago in Pakistan to an Ahamdi sentenced for writing a Kalama on his place of worship (I think called Masjid)? Perhaps your energies should be spent on correcting the ills inflicted on the Muslim world. You should be grateful to the Americans for cleansing the Islamic world where the Mullahs and the other keepers of the faith have turned the religion of peace into a monkey circus.

May Allah bestows a complete success to the brave Americans rid the world of Jihadis, just as they did of Nazis.

Iraq has been liberated from Bathist thugs, their remnants are either dead, dying, or on the run. It was only possible by the help of Americans, because the muslims are impotent and refuse to stand up to tyranny and injustice. I hope you are ashamed of the silence over Darfur by jokers collectively known as the Ummah.

Re: # 8

masadi mian,

......... i would like to point out the efficacy of precision bombing in getting rid of iman-infested rats like zarqawi - it took a couple of tries, but in the end it worked .......... now we have to go after the bigger rodents like osama and his henchmen in their caves, ahmedinijad and the ayatollas in tehran, the bearded ones in mansoora and akora khattak, and the towel heads in riyadh ..........

........ i think the 500 lb bomb is the best negotiating tool when dealing with jihadis, wahabis, deobandis and others of their ilk ............

#9, Kulharee, nice tactics, inflame sectarian hatred so that the focus of blame shifts in an Ad Hominem fashion, away from the facts of the matter. Yazid is not my hero, I am considered equally heretical by Sunni and Shia clergy because I reject their traditionalism, and extra Quranic sources. Though the vast majority of the common folk among the Muslims are coming to see through the clerical bs. I do not differentiate between people based on ideology, Muslim, non Muslim or whatever- deal with the facts or shut up rather than trying to guess my motivations.

Re: # 4

Masadi, as usual, and not surprisingly, is clueless. “Dsiplacement”?? haha. Like your hero Yazid displaced the young babies in Karbala. You have no morals Masadi and your motivation is not to see the poor Muslims (mainly non-Sunni non-Wahabis) live in peace, but you are motivated by sheer hatred of the West and you couldn’t give a dick about Muslims. You are the one to talk. Get a life you joker. Go help your brothers in need in Darfur, and soon in Somalia.

#7 by harish_hyd on June 8, <<< Now don`t come back saying that American forces are bombing civilians because you know the intent there. >>>

What intent? The war or the individual bombings? When you drop a 2000lb jdam in the heart of a city, you know that civilians are going to get killed and mutilated, their heads seperated from their shoulders, their torsos cut off. In what way is that morally superior to anything done by the insurgents? Yes there isn`t any equivalence. The barbarians attacked and occupied a foreign land, they are the higher criminals unlike the insurgents. If America was occupied American insurgents would also try to fight off that occupation. Because this barbaric invasion has destroyed all institutions of a civil society there are criminals who within this broad fight are doing their petty barbarism, their petty terrorism and their sectarianism, that in no way translates into the insurgent cause being wrong, or the insurgency not being a popular movement or the US occupation forces having any moral superiority over them.

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PS: A study published in the Lancet , conducted by the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, end quarter 2004, attributed most violent deaths which went up 5800% after the occupation compared to under Saddam, to US air strikes

#6 by masadi

Yeah, American civilians are worthy victims well celebrated and sensationalized on tv while the ``unworthy victims``, the over 100,000 Iraqis that have been butchered by US airstrikes (in the most part) are of no consequence.

Masadi, please don`t try to bring in any equivalence here because there isn`t any. If the insurgents are fighting American forces so be it, but why pick on innocent civilians? Now don`t come back saying that American forces are bombing civilians because you know the intent there.

#5 harish writes <<< The cruelty perpetrated on American civilians ... >>

Yeah, American civilians are worthy victims well celebrated and sensationalized on tv while the ``unworthy victims``, the over 100,000 Iraqis that have been butchered by US airstrikes (in the most part) are of no consequence. Amazing morality we see on chowk, on the other thread Fuzair and Feroz are trying to lay the blame for haditha on insurgent tactics.