On death of a Terrorist
Tahir Qazi June 11, 2006
#65 Posted by wanderer_no_1 on August 31, 2006 1:37:59 am
It is a Paradox. Religion is supposed to provide peace. Numerous wars have been fought in the name of Religion. Religion is supposed to teach to live in peace. Numerous Deaths are caused in the name of Religion.
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#64 Posted by MantoLives on July 13, 2006 5:40:32 am
SUBCONTINENT`S ORIGINAL TERRORIST GANDHI WHO MIXED RELIGION WITH POLITICS
On What Gandhi wanted
The last week has been very busy. We have not had a moment`s leisure. We saw Mr. Theodore Morison of Aligarh and the well-known Mr. Stead of the Review of Reviews. Mr. Stead has boldly come out to give us all the help he can. He was therefore requested to write to the same Boer leaders that they should not consider Indians as being on the same level as Kaffirs
Indian Opinion, 15-12-1906, CWOMG Vol. 6, pg 183
private delete
October 4, 2005
On What Gandhi wanted (3)
CLASSIFICATION OF ASIATICS WITH NATIVES
The cell was situated in the Native quarters and we were housed in one that was labeled `For Coloured Debtors`. It was this experience for which we were perhaps all unprepared. We had fondly imagined that we would have suitable quarters apart from the Natives. As it was, perhaps, just as well that we were classed with Natives. We would now be able to study the life of Native prisoners, their customs and manners. ...Degradation underlay the classing of Indians with natives. The Asiatic Act seemed to me to be the summit of our degradation. It did appear to me, as I think it would appear to any unprejudiced reader, that it would have been simple humanity if we were given special quarters. ...the Governor of the gaol tried to make us as comfortable as he could...But he was powerless to accommodate us beyond the horrible din and the yells of the Native prisoners throughout the day and partly at night also. Many of the native prisoners are only one degree removed from the animal and often created rows and fought amongst themselves in their cells.
Indian Opinion 7-3-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 120
Apart from whether or not this implies degradation, I must say it is rather dangerous. Kaffirs are as a rule uncivilized -- the convicts even more so. They are troublesome, very dirty, and live almost like animals. Each ward contains nearly 50 to 60 of them. They often started rows and fought among themselves. The reader can easily imagine the plight of the poor Indian thrown into such company
Indian Opinion, 7-3-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 135
private delete
October 4, 2005
On What Gandhi wanted (2)
INDIANS ON PAR WITH KAFFIRS
There, our garments were stamped with the letter `N`, which meant that we were being classed with the Natives. We were all prepared for hardships, but not quite for this experience. We could understand not being classed with the whites, but to be placed on the same level with the Natives seemed too much to put up with. I then felt that Indians had launched on passive resistance too soon. Here was further proof that the obnoxious law was intended to emasculate the Indians.
It was, however, as well that we were classified with the Natives. It was a welcome opportunity to study the treatment meted out to the Natives, their conditions [of life in the gaol] and their habits. ...We were given a separate ward because we were sentenced to simple imprisonment; otherwise we would have been in the same ward [with the Kaffirs]. Indians sentenced to hard labour are in fact kept with the Kaffirs.
Apart from whether or not this implies degradation, I must say it is rather dangerous. Kaffirs are as a rule uncivilized -- the convicts even more so. They are troublesome, very dirty, and live almost like animals. Each ward contains nearly 50 to 60 of them. They often started rows and fought among themselves. The reader can easily imagine the plight of the poor Indian thrown into such company
Indian Opinion, 7-3-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 135
private delete
October 4, 2005
On What Gandhi wanted (1)
I have, though, resolved in my mind on an agitation to ensure that Indian prisoners are not lodged with Kaffirs or others. When I arrived at the place, there were about 15 Indian prisoners. Except for three, all of them were satyagrahis. The three were charged with other offences. These prisoners were generally lodged with kaffirs. When I reached there, the chief warder issued an order that all of us should be lodged in a separate room. I observed with regret that some Indians were happy to sleep in the same room as the Kaffirs, the reason being that they hoped there for a secret supply of tobacco, etc. This is a matter of shame to us. We may entertain no aversion to the Kaffirs, but we cannot ignore the fact that there is no common ground between them and us in the daily affairs of life. Moreover, those who wish to sleep in the same room have ulterior motives for doing so.
Obviously, we ought to abandon such notions if we want to make progress.
Indian Opinion, 6-1-1909, CWOMG Vol. 9, pg 149
On What Gandhi wanted (9)
Gandhi`s disdain for black people continues:
It is one thing to register Natives who would not work, and whom it is very difficult to find out if they absent themselves, but it is another thing and most insulting to expect decent, hard-working, and respectable Indians, whose only fault is that they work too much, to have themselves registered
What is a Coolie, Indian Opinion 2151904, CWOMG Vol. 4, pg 193
CWOMG: Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi
private delete
October 4, 2005
On What Gandhi wanted (8)
The whole affair is as much a disgrace to the Indian community as it is to the British Empire. The British rulers take us to be so lowly and ignorant that they assume that, like the Kaffirs who can be pleased with toys and pins, we can also be fobbed off with trinkets
Indian Opinion, 29-2-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 105
CWOMG: Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi
private delete
October 4, 2005
On What Gandhi wanted (7)
More on SEPARATE AND UNEQUAL theory of Gandhiji...
His Excellency has, moreover, justified the definition of `coloured person` on the ground that it is a legacy from the old Government. But British Indians object to the definition for that very reason. Their position is this. The ordinances will not in practice apply to them. The Boer Government insulted the Indians by classing them with the Kaffirs. Now there is no occasion to perpetuate a needless insult
Indians in the O.R.C, Indian Opinion, 6-1-1906, CWOMG, Vol. 5, pg 177-178
Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi: CWOMG
private delete
October 4, 2005
On What Gandhi wanted (6)
More on SEPARATE AND UNEQUAL theory of Gandhiji...
His Excellency has, moreover, justified the definition of `coloured person` on the ground that it is a legacy from the old Government. But British Indians object to the definition for that very reason. Their position is this. The ordinances will not in practice apply to them. The Boer Government insulted the Indians by classing them with the Kaffirs. Now there is no occasion to perpetuate a needless insult
Indians in the O.R.C, Indian Opinion, 6-1-1906, CWOMG, Vol. 5, pg 177-178
Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi: CWOMG
private delete
October 4, 2005
On What Gandhi wanted (5)
It reduces British Indians to a status lower than that of the aboriginal races of South Africa and the Coloured people.
Indian Opinion 15-9-1906, CWOMG Vol. 5, pg 419-423
On What Gandhi wanted (14)
On Minority White rule in South Africa:
We, therefore, have no hesitation in agreeing with the view that in the long run assisted Asiatic immigration into the Transvaal would be disastrous to the white settlement. People will gradually accommodate themselves to relying upon Asiatic labour, and any White immigration of the special class required in the Transvaal on a large scale will be practically impossible. It would be equally unfair to the Natives of the soil. It is all very well to say that they would not work, and that, if the Asiatics were introduced, that would be a stimulus to work; but human nature is the same everywhere, and once Asiatic labour is resorted to, there would not be a sustained effort to induce the Natives to work under what would otherwise be, after all, gentle compulsion. There would be then less talk about taxing the Natives and so forth. Natives themselves, used as they are to a very simple mode of life, will always be able to command enough wages to meet their wants; and the result will be putting back their progress for an indefinite length of time. We have used the words `gentle compulsion` in the best sense of the term; we mean compulsion of the same kind that a parent exercises over children
Indian Opinion, 9-7-1903, CWOMG Vol. 3, pg 359-360
CWOMG: COLLECTED WORKS OF MAHATMA GANDHI.
private delete
October 4, 2005
On What Gandhi wanted (13)
On Minority White rule in South Africa:
We, therefore, have no hesitation in agreeing with the view that in the long run assisted Asiatic immigration into the Transvaal would be disastrous to the white settlement. People will gradually accommodate themselves to relying upon Asiatic labour, and any White immigration of the special class required in the Transvaal on a large scale will be practically impossible. It would be equally unfair to the Natives of the soil. It is all very well to say that they would not work, and that, if the Asiatics were introduced, that would be a stimulus to work; but human nature is the same everywhere, and once Asiatic labour is resorted to, there would not be a sustained effort to induce the Natives to work under what would otherwise be, after all, gentle compulsion. There would be then less talk about taxing the Natives and so forth. Natives themselves, used as they are to a very simple mode of life, will always be able to command enough wages to meet their wants; and the result will be putting back their progress for an indefinite length of time. We have used the words `gentle compulsion` in the best sense of the term; we mean compulsion of the same kind that a parent exercises over children
For Beej who is apparently BLIND: Indian Opinion, 9-7-1903, CWOMG Vol. 3, pg 359-360
CWOMG: COLLECTED WORKS OF MAHATMA GANDHI.
private delete
October 4, 2005
On What Gandhi wanted (12)
What the British Indians pray for is very little. They ask for no political power. They admit the British race should be the dominant race in South Africa. All they ask for is freedom for those that are now settled and those that may be allowed to come in future to trade, to move about, and to hold landed property without any hindrance save the ordinary legal requirements
Petition to Natal Legislature, CWOMG, vol3, pg 330
private delete
October 4, 2005
On What Gandhi wanted (11)
Ah... and they said Plessey Vs Ferguson was bad...
Well here is Gandhi with his theory of ``Separate and Unequal``
...The petition dwells upon ``the co-mingling of the Coloured and white races``. May we inform the members of the conference that, so far as the British Indians are concerned, such a thing is practically unknown? If there is one thing, which the Indian cherishes more than any other, it is the purity of type. Why bring such a question into the controversy at all?
The Transvaal Chambers and British Indians, Indian Opinion 24-12-03, CWOMG Vol. 4, pg 89
private delete
October 4, 2005
On What Gandhi wanted (10)
More on Gandhi`s theory of ``separate and unequal``
Why, of all places in Johannesburg, the Indian Location should be chosen for dumping down all the Kaffirs of the town passes my comprehension. ...Of course, under my suggestion, The Town Council must withdraw the Kaffirs from the Location. About this mixing of Kaffirs with the Indians, I must confess I feel most strongly
Indian Opinion, 10-4-04, CWOMG Vol. 4, pg 130-131
Other Gandhian Statements that we need to consider...
`Sanghtan is a really sound movement. Every community is entitled, indeed bound to organize itself as a seperate entity` : Mahatma Gandhi
(Young India January 6th 1927)
A translation of a Gujrati essay he wrote in 1922 for Niya Jawan
(1) I believe that if Hindu Society has been able to stand it is because it is founded on the caste system.
(2) The seeds of swaraj are to be found in the caste system. Different castes are like different sections of miliary division. Each division is working for the good of the whole....
(3) A community which can create the caste system must be said to possess unique power of organization.
(4) Caste has a ready made means for spreading primary education. Each caste can take the responsibility for the education of the children of the caste. Caste has a political basis. It can work as an electorate for a representative body. Caste can perform judicial functions by electing persons to act as judges to decide disputes among members of the same caste. With castes it is easy to raise a defense force by requiring each caste to raise a brigade.
(5) I believe that interdining or intermarriage are not necessary for promoting national unity. That dining together creates friendship is contrary to experience. If this was true there would have been no war in Europe.... Taking food is as dirty an act as answering the call of nature. The only difference is that after answering call of nature we get peace while after eating food we get discomfort. Just as we perform the act of answering the call of nature in seclusion so also the act of taking food must also be done in seclusion.
(6) In India children of brothers do not intermarry. Do they cease to love because they do not intermarry? Among the Vaishnavas many women are so orthodox that they will not eat with members of the family nor will they drink water from a common water pot. Have they no love? The caste system cannot be said to be bad because it does not allow interdining or intermarriage between different castes.
(7) Caste is another name for control. Caste puts a limit on enjoyment. Caste does not allow a person to transgress caste limits in pursuit of his enjoyment. That is the meaning of such caste restrictions as interdining and intermarriage.
(8) To destroy caste system and adopt Western European social system means that Hindus must give up the principle of hereditary occupation which is the soul of the caste system. Hereditary principle is an eternal principle. To change it is to create disorder. I have no use for a Brahmin if I cannot call him a Brahmin for my life. It will be a chaos if every day a Brahmin is to be changed into a Shudra and a Shudra is to be changed into a Brahmin.
(9) The caste system is a natural order of society. In India it has been given a religious coating. Other countries not having understood the utility of the caste system, it existed only in a loose condition and consequently those countries have not derived from caste system the same degree of advantage which India has derived. These being my views I am opposed to all those who are out to destroy the caste system.
and my favorite:
The rule of a Musalman is that of a Bully
Can we end this drama here ... and accept that Jinnah`s comments - that some quote out of context- were merely tit for tat to Gandhi- who was a bigot...
Fairminded conclusion would suggest so...
On What Gandhi wanted
The last week has been very busy. We have not had a moment`s leisure. We saw Mr. Theodore Morison of Aligarh and the well-known Mr. Stead of the Review of Reviews. Mr. Stead has boldly come out to give us all the help he can. He was therefore requested to write to the same Boer leaders that they should not consider Indians as being on the same level as Kaffirs
Indian Opinion, 15-12-1906, CWOMG Vol. 6, pg 183
private delete
October 4, 2005
On What Gandhi wanted (3)
CLASSIFICATION OF ASIATICS WITH NATIVES
The cell was situated in the Native quarters and we were housed in one that was labeled `For Coloured Debtors`. It was this experience for which we were perhaps all unprepared. We had fondly imagined that we would have suitable quarters apart from the Natives. As it was, perhaps, just as well that we were classed with Natives. We would now be able to study the life of Native prisoners, their customs and manners. ...Degradation underlay the classing of Indians with natives. The Asiatic Act seemed to me to be the summit of our degradation. It did appear to me, as I think it would appear to any unprejudiced reader, that it would have been simple humanity if we were given special quarters. ...the Governor of the gaol tried to make us as comfortable as he could...But he was powerless to accommodate us beyond the horrible din and the yells of the Native prisoners throughout the day and partly at night also. Many of the native prisoners are only one degree removed from the animal and often created rows and fought amongst themselves in their cells.
Indian Opinion 7-3-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 120
Apart from whether or not this implies degradation, I must say it is rather dangerous. Kaffirs are as a rule uncivilized -- the convicts even more so. They are troublesome, very dirty, and live almost like animals. Each ward contains nearly 50 to 60 of them. They often started rows and fought among themselves. The reader can easily imagine the plight of the poor Indian thrown into such company
Indian Opinion, 7-3-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 135
private delete
October 4, 2005
On What Gandhi wanted (2)
INDIANS ON PAR WITH KAFFIRS
There, our garments were stamped with the letter `N`, which meant that we were being classed with the Natives. We were all prepared for hardships, but not quite for this experience. We could understand not being classed with the whites, but to be placed on the same level with the Natives seemed too much to put up with. I then felt that Indians had launched on passive resistance too soon. Here was further proof that the obnoxious law was intended to emasculate the Indians.
It was, however, as well that we were classified with the Natives. It was a welcome opportunity to study the treatment meted out to the Natives, their conditions [of life in the gaol] and their habits. ...We were given a separate ward because we were sentenced to simple imprisonment; otherwise we would have been in the same ward [with the Kaffirs]. Indians sentenced to hard labour are in fact kept with the Kaffirs.
Apart from whether or not this implies degradation, I must say it is rather dangerous. Kaffirs are as a rule uncivilized -- the convicts even more so. They are troublesome, very dirty, and live almost like animals. Each ward contains nearly 50 to 60 of them. They often started rows and fought among themselves. The reader can easily imagine the plight of the poor Indian thrown into such company
Indian Opinion, 7-3-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 135
private delete
October 4, 2005
On What Gandhi wanted (1)
I have, though, resolved in my mind on an agitation to ensure that Indian prisoners are not lodged with Kaffirs or others. When I arrived at the place, there were about 15 Indian prisoners. Except for three, all of them were satyagrahis. The three were charged with other offences. These prisoners were generally lodged with kaffirs. When I reached there, the chief warder issued an order that all of us should be lodged in a separate room. I observed with regret that some Indians were happy to sleep in the same room as the Kaffirs, the reason being that they hoped there for a secret supply of tobacco, etc. This is a matter of shame to us. We may entertain no aversion to the Kaffirs, but we cannot ignore the fact that there is no common ground between them and us in the daily affairs of life. Moreover, those who wish to sleep in the same room have ulterior motives for doing so.
Obviously, we ought to abandon such notions if we want to make progress.
Indian Opinion, 6-1-1909, CWOMG Vol. 9, pg 149
On What Gandhi wanted (9)
Gandhi`s disdain for black people continues:
It is one thing to register Natives who would not work, and whom it is very difficult to find out if they absent themselves, but it is another thing and most insulting to expect decent, hard-working, and respectable Indians, whose only fault is that they work too much, to have themselves registered
What is a Coolie, Indian Opinion 2151904, CWOMG Vol. 4, pg 193
CWOMG: Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi
private delete
October 4, 2005
On What Gandhi wanted (8)
The whole affair is as much a disgrace to the Indian community as it is to the British Empire. The British rulers take us to be so lowly and ignorant that they assume that, like the Kaffirs who can be pleased with toys and pins, we can also be fobbed off with trinkets
Indian Opinion, 29-2-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 105
CWOMG: Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi
private delete
October 4, 2005
On What Gandhi wanted (7)
More on SEPARATE AND UNEQUAL theory of Gandhiji...
His Excellency has, moreover, justified the definition of `coloured person` on the ground that it is a legacy from the old Government. But British Indians object to the definition for that very reason. Their position is this. The ordinances will not in practice apply to them. The Boer Government insulted the Indians by classing them with the Kaffirs. Now there is no occasion to perpetuate a needless insult
Indians in the O.R.C, Indian Opinion, 6-1-1906, CWOMG, Vol. 5, pg 177-178
Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi: CWOMG
private delete
October 4, 2005
On What Gandhi wanted (6)
More on SEPARATE AND UNEQUAL theory of Gandhiji...
His Excellency has, moreover, justified the definition of `coloured person` on the ground that it is a legacy from the old Government. But British Indians object to the definition for that very reason. Their position is this. The ordinances will not in practice apply to them. The Boer Government insulted the Indians by classing them with the Kaffirs. Now there is no occasion to perpetuate a needless insult
Indians in the O.R.C, Indian Opinion, 6-1-1906, CWOMG, Vol. 5, pg 177-178
Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi: CWOMG
private delete
October 4, 2005
On What Gandhi wanted (5)
It reduces British Indians to a status lower than that of the aboriginal races of South Africa and the Coloured people.
Indian Opinion 15-9-1906, CWOMG Vol. 5, pg 419-423
On What Gandhi wanted (14)
On Minority White rule in South Africa:
We, therefore, have no hesitation in agreeing with the view that in the long run assisted Asiatic immigration into the Transvaal would be disastrous to the white settlement. People will gradually accommodate themselves to relying upon Asiatic labour, and any White immigration of the special class required in the Transvaal on a large scale will be practically impossible. It would be equally unfair to the Natives of the soil. It is all very well to say that they would not work, and that, if the Asiatics were introduced, that would be a stimulus to work; but human nature is the same everywhere, and once Asiatic labour is resorted to, there would not be a sustained effort to induce the Natives to work under what would otherwise be, after all, gentle compulsion. There would be then less talk about taxing the Natives and so forth. Natives themselves, used as they are to a very simple mode of life, will always be able to command enough wages to meet their wants; and the result will be putting back their progress for an indefinite length of time. We have used the words `gentle compulsion` in the best sense of the term; we mean compulsion of the same kind that a parent exercises over children
Indian Opinion, 9-7-1903, CWOMG Vol. 3, pg 359-360
CWOMG: COLLECTED WORKS OF MAHATMA GANDHI.
private delete
October 4, 2005
On What Gandhi wanted (13)
On Minority White rule in South Africa:
We, therefore, have no hesitation in agreeing with the view that in the long run assisted Asiatic immigration into the Transvaal would be disastrous to the white settlement. People will gradually accommodate themselves to relying upon Asiatic labour, and any White immigration of the special class required in the Transvaal on a large scale will be practically impossible. It would be equally unfair to the Natives of the soil. It is all very well to say that they would not work, and that, if the Asiatics were introduced, that would be a stimulus to work; but human nature is the same everywhere, and once Asiatic labour is resorted to, there would not be a sustained effort to induce the Natives to work under what would otherwise be, after all, gentle compulsion. There would be then less talk about taxing the Natives and so forth. Natives themselves, used as they are to a very simple mode of life, will always be able to command enough wages to meet their wants; and the result will be putting back their progress for an indefinite length of time. We have used the words `gentle compulsion` in the best sense of the term; we mean compulsion of the same kind that a parent exercises over children
For Beej who is apparently BLIND: Indian Opinion, 9-7-1903, CWOMG Vol. 3, pg 359-360
CWOMG: COLLECTED WORKS OF MAHATMA GANDHI.
private delete
October 4, 2005
On What Gandhi wanted (12)
What the British Indians pray for is very little. They ask for no political power. They admit the British race should be the dominant race in South Africa. All they ask for is freedom for those that are now settled and those that may be allowed to come in future to trade, to move about, and to hold landed property without any hindrance save the ordinary legal requirements
Petition to Natal Legislature, CWOMG, vol3, pg 330
private delete
October 4, 2005
On What Gandhi wanted (11)
Ah... and they said Plessey Vs Ferguson was bad...
Well here is Gandhi with his theory of ``Separate and Unequal``
...The petition dwells upon ``the co-mingling of the Coloured and white races``. May we inform the members of the conference that, so far as the British Indians are concerned, such a thing is practically unknown? If there is one thing, which the Indian cherishes more than any other, it is the purity of type. Why bring such a question into the controversy at all?
The Transvaal Chambers and British Indians, Indian Opinion 24-12-03, CWOMG Vol. 4, pg 89
private delete
October 4, 2005
On What Gandhi wanted (10)
More on Gandhi`s theory of ``separate and unequal``
Why, of all places in Johannesburg, the Indian Location should be chosen for dumping down all the Kaffirs of the town passes my comprehension. ...Of course, under my suggestion, The Town Council must withdraw the Kaffirs from the Location. About this mixing of Kaffirs with the Indians, I must confess I feel most strongly
Indian Opinion, 10-4-04, CWOMG Vol. 4, pg 130-131
Other Gandhian Statements that we need to consider...
`Sanghtan is a really sound movement. Every community is entitled, indeed bound to organize itself as a seperate entity` : Mahatma Gandhi
(Young India January 6th 1927)
A translation of a Gujrati essay he wrote in 1922 for Niya Jawan
(1) I believe that if Hindu Society has been able to stand it is because it is founded on the caste system.
(2) The seeds of swaraj are to be found in the caste system. Different castes are like different sections of miliary division. Each division is working for the good of the whole....
(3) A community which can create the caste system must be said to possess unique power of organization.
(4) Caste has a ready made means for spreading primary education. Each caste can take the responsibility for the education of the children of the caste. Caste has a political basis. It can work as an electorate for a representative body. Caste can perform judicial functions by electing persons to act as judges to decide disputes among members of the same caste. With castes it is easy to raise a defense force by requiring each caste to raise a brigade.
(5) I believe that interdining or intermarriage are not necessary for promoting national unity. That dining together creates friendship is contrary to experience. If this was true there would have been no war in Europe.... Taking food is as dirty an act as answering the call of nature. The only difference is that after answering call of nature we get peace while after eating food we get discomfort. Just as we perform the act of answering the call of nature in seclusion so also the act of taking food must also be done in seclusion.
(6) In India children of brothers do not intermarry. Do they cease to love because they do not intermarry? Among the Vaishnavas many women are so orthodox that they will not eat with members of the family nor will they drink water from a common water pot. Have they no love? The caste system cannot be said to be bad because it does not allow interdining or intermarriage between different castes.
(7) Caste is another name for control. Caste puts a limit on enjoyment. Caste does not allow a person to transgress caste limits in pursuit of his enjoyment. That is the meaning of such caste restrictions as interdining and intermarriage.
(8) To destroy caste system and adopt Western European social system means that Hindus must give up the principle of hereditary occupation which is the soul of the caste system. Hereditary principle is an eternal principle. To change it is to create disorder. I have no use for a Brahmin if I cannot call him a Brahmin for my life. It will be a chaos if every day a Brahmin is to be changed into a Shudra and a Shudra is to be changed into a Brahmin.
(9) The caste system is a natural order of society. In India it has been given a religious coating. Other countries not having understood the utility of the caste system, it existed only in a loose condition and consequently those countries have not derived from caste system the same degree of advantage which India has derived. These being my views I am opposed to all those who are out to destroy the caste system.
and my favorite:
The rule of a Musalman is that of a Bully
Can we end this drama here ... and accept that Jinnah`s comments - that some quote out of context- were merely tit for tat to Gandhi- who was a bigot...
Fairminded conclusion would suggest so...
#62 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on June 14, 2006 9:12:01 am
VRV #59 {``We know that debate on terrorism is one-sided. If Muslims only fight as a religious duty then it degenerates to a clash of religions. If you you take the help of others and fight the injustices then it`s a moral fight between the good and evil. ``}
VRV Bhai,
In three short sentences, you have beautfiully articulated the proper course for normal Muslims to take. Religion is supposed to teach us right from wrong and how to follow the straight path - sirat-ul-mustaqim. If we are bad to begin with, then we are wrong. If we do bad things in revenge for bad things, then we are still wrong. If we join others in doing good things, then we are right and our philosophy (i.e. Islam) is presented in a good light. If we all start wearing militant religious uniforms (Crusaders with huge crosses, vestsed Jihadis wearing coffin shrouds, Hindu militants all painted up for violence, or Jewish settlers with beards and guns), then we are all bad. Thanks.
VRV Bhai,
In three short sentences, you have beautfiully articulated the proper course for normal Muslims to take. Religion is supposed to teach us right from wrong and how to follow the straight path - sirat-ul-mustaqim. If we are bad to begin with, then we are wrong. If we do bad things in revenge for bad things, then we are still wrong. If we join others in doing good things, then we are right and our philosophy (i.e. Islam) is presented in a good light. If we all start wearing militant religious uniforms (Crusaders with huge crosses, vestsed Jihadis wearing coffin shrouds, Hindu militants all painted up for violence, or Jewish settlers with beards and guns), then we are all bad. Thanks.
#60 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on June 14, 2006 8:56:04 am
TahirQazi #57 {``Nonetheless, I enjoy reading your perspective. By the way what do you think, is violence part of human nature?``}
Tahir Bhai,
Thank you for attempting to extract religion out of the discussion about violence. I think that violence is certainly a part of the animal aspect of human nature - as much as hunger, pain, thirst, desire to procreate, defecation, and urination are also animal aspects of ``human`` nature. Ostensibly, what sets us apart from the other creatures is our ability to rationalize, our sense of guilt and shame, and our conscience. Thus, as humans, we have learned to control our animal instincts and have channeled them into a ``right time and right place`` confinement. Nevertheless, there are ``humans`` who are adept at using justification, especially in God`s name, national security, for freedom`s sake, in the defense of family, faith, and tribe, or citing sacred scriptures, to take liberties with human taboos against killing, looting, raping, and enslaving. So we have animal behavior, human attempt to control this behavior, and inhumane craftiness in committing excessive and brutal animal behavior for ``good`` causes. Thanks.
Tahir Bhai,
Thank you for attempting to extract religion out of the discussion about violence. I think that violence is certainly a part of the animal aspect of human nature - as much as hunger, pain, thirst, desire to procreate, defecation, and urination are also animal aspects of ``human`` nature. Ostensibly, what sets us apart from the other creatures is our ability to rationalize, our sense of guilt and shame, and our conscience. Thus, as humans, we have learned to control our animal instincts and have channeled them into a ``right time and right place`` confinement. Nevertheless, there are ``humans`` who are adept at using justification, especially in God`s name, national security, for freedom`s sake, in the defense of family, faith, and tribe, or citing sacred scriptures, to take liberties with human taboos against killing, looting, raping, and enslaving. So we have animal behavior, human attempt to control this behavior, and inhumane craftiness in committing excessive and brutal animal behavior for ``good`` causes. Thanks.
#59 Posted by VRV on June 14, 2006 8:11:38 am
Re: # 57
We know that debate on terrorism is one-sided. If Muslims only fight as a religious duty then it degenerates to a clash of religions. If you you take the help of others and fight the injustices then it`s a moral fight between the good and evil.
It doesn`t need to expalain that who created Osama and Zarqawi or Jihad. The US did create these monsters and they are now struggling to contain them. If Muslims get enraged and seek more of religious booster then it`s dissented by people like me, bcoz of what they do it in our midst and what they do to themselves and how they end-up screw-up our futures.
You may be aware that many white Americans hate these Bush wars (many more in UK). So to me to be morally strong we need to fight the two mad dogs as a morally superior beings than being a monster or supporter of religous fanatics.
A small story:
There`s a village. One day a person found on his head an outgrowth of two horns. All others in the village surrounded him and killed him.
After sometime all had an outgrowth of horns on their heads except one. All the horned people surrounded the lone normal guy and killed him.
The moral of the story is that we live in a society where we find fewer people who developed horns (terrorists).
We know that debate on terrorism is one-sided. If Muslims only fight as a religious duty then it degenerates to a clash of religions. If you you take the help of others and fight the injustices then it`s a moral fight between the good and evil.
It doesn`t need to expalain that who created Osama and Zarqawi or Jihad. The US did create these monsters and they are now struggling to contain them. If Muslims get enraged and seek more of religious booster then it`s dissented by people like me, bcoz of what they do it in our midst and what they do to themselves and how they end-up screw-up our futures.
You may be aware that many white Americans hate these Bush wars (many more in UK). So to me to be morally strong we need to fight the two mad dogs as a morally superior beings than being a monster or supporter of religous fanatics.
A small story:
There`s a village. One day a person found on his head an outgrowth of two horns. All others in the village surrounded him and killed him.
After sometime all had an outgrowth of horns on their heads except one. All the horned people surrounded the lone normal guy and killed him.
The moral of the story is that we live in a society where we find fewer people who developed horns (terrorists).
#58 Posted by ballukhan on June 14, 2006 1:03:23 am
Re: # 57
`Conflict` is part of the nature`s scheme.......... but the almighty has already revealed the way to overcome it through `co-operation` which is what Islam is all about.......... it is about co-operation between humans in the spiritual way revealed through the Holy Prophet(PBUH).........so Islam is all about co-operation and peace............violence is an aberration that comes because some zealous want to en-force cooperation which never happens because the spiritual path can only descend and does not come through mere imitation of practices................
`Conflict` is part of the nature`s scheme.......... but the almighty has already revealed the way to overcome it through `co-operation` which is what Islam is all about.......... it is about co-operation between humans in the spiritual way revealed through the Holy Prophet(PBUH).........so Islam is all about co-operation and peace............violence is an aberration that comes because some zealous want to en-force cooperation which never happens because the spiritual path can only descend and does not come through mere imitation of practices................
#57 Posted by TahirQazi on June 13, 2006 6:27:24 pm
Dear Salim_Chauhan, ballukhan & VRV
Thanks for elevating the discussion to a higher level.
Ideologies and religions live in human minds. I suspect they have doubtful survival independent of humans. One of the problems with ideologies is ease of their ‘corruptibility’, which in reality is a reflection of human nature.
Spiritual or political Islam (Religion/ideology) whatever the way we look at it, does not ensure that it will not conform to whims of its practitioners. Also, you can easily find verses in Koran and Bible that justify violence and some other verses that speak for peace. Actually, they are contradictory to each other. Which verse one would choose to refer to at a certain time is an individual pick I suppose, but they are there.
I guess it is worthwhile to examine issues related to violence in human nature and desire for peace at a human level, and coming to a mental resolution between two contradictory impulses at a human level, beyond religions and some of the non-religious ideologies also, ultra-nationalism for example & so on. It is a long discussion. Nonetheless, I enjoy reading your perspective. By the way what do you think, is violence part of human nature?
Regards,
Tahir Qazi
Thanks for elevating the discussion to a higher level.
Ideologies and religions live in human minds. I suspect they have doubtful survival independent of humans. One of the problems with ideologies is ease of their ‘corruptibility’, which in reality is a reflection of human nature.
Spiritual or political Islam (Religion/ideology) whatever the way we look at it, does not ensure that it will not conform to whims of its practitioners. Also, you can easily find verses in Koran and Bible that justify violence and some other verses that speak for peace. Actually, they are contradictory to each other. Which verse one would choose to refer to at a certain time is an individual pick I suppose, but they are there.
I guess it is worthwhile to examine issues related to violence in human nature and desire for peace at a human level, and coming to a mental resolution between two contradictory impulses at a human level, beyond religions and some of the non-religious ideologies also, ultra-nationalism for example & so on. It is a long discussion. Nonetheless, I enjoy reading your perspective. By the way what do you think, is violence part of human nature?
Regards,
Tahir Qazi
#56 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on June 13, 2006 2:55:09 pm
Ballukhan #52, {````Political Islam`` is the use of Islam to gain political ower.......................it is distinct from Islam as a `spiritual` way prescribed by the almighty and revealed to the Prophet...............
with this simple distinction let me state that since you agree to keeping Islam out of politics let us now roll back the Islamization project of Pakistan that has been going on for quite a while......come on!! if NEPAL can change its constitution from being a religious Hindu State to a SECULAR STATE in 2006 A.D. why can`t PAkistan and all those so called ``Islamic`` states do the same?? ``}
Ballu Bhai,
Amen, brother, Amen. Very clearly and effectively stated. Now all we need are some people who love Islam enough to save it from total evaporation. Secularism will be the best thing to happen for Islam - the poor faith has been hijacked, used, abused, trashed, exploited, villified, and usurped by selfish mad mullahs. These fundo fanatics want to keep Muslims ignorant, backward, and helpless so that they can rule them with ``God`s will.``
with this simple distinction let me state that since you agree to keeping Islam out of politics let us now roll back the Islamization project of Pakistan that has been going on for quite a while......come on!! if NEPAL can change its constitution from being a religious Hindu State to a SECULAR STATE in 2006 A.D. why can`t PAkistan and all those so called ``Islamic`` states do the same?? ``}
Ballu Bhai,
Amen, brother, Amen. Very clearly and effectively stated. Now all we need are some people who love Islam enough to save it from total evaporation. Secularism will be the best thing to happen for Islam - the poor faith has been hijacked, used, abused, trashed, exploited, villified, and usurped by selfish mad mullahs. These fundo fanatics want to keep Muslims ignorant, backward, and helpless so that they can rule them with ``God`s will.``
#55 Posted by wiseguyin on June 13, 2006 12:13:21 pm
Re: # 54
Ouch did I touch a raw nerve ....
If you read what I write, with an open mind, you would know ... wait a sec ... are you one of
those - ``We-know-what-we-are-doing-is-wrong,-but-you-need-to-understand-us`` types ???
If u don`t hav the guts to take on the evil within, put up & shut up.
Ouch did I touch a raw nerve ....
If you read what I write, with an open mind, you would know ... wait a sec ... are you one of
those - ``We-know-what-we-are-doing-is-wrong,-but-you-need-to-understand-us`` types ???
If u don`t hav the guts to take on the evil within, put up & shut up.
#54 Posted by may on June 13, 2006 10:16:48 am
Re: # 1 He was homo Islamus....this is a different species
-N u think u learnt somethin 4m this article.I only wish u did!
-N u think u learnt somethin 4m this article.I only wish u did!
#53 Posted by ballukhan on June 12, 2006 11:23:08 pm
once all these so called ``Islamic`` states roll back into secular democracies I can guarantee that all these Islamists running wild would be just a thing of the past...............and we can all enjoy the fruits of the modernity and its technology without worrying about the nuclear suicide bombing which is certain to happen otherwise......................
#52 Posted by ballukhan on June 12, 2006 11:19:31 pm
Re: # 43
``Lately, I have been hearing of `political islam` more often. I do not think you can make a distinction as if there are two Islams: One political and the other non-political. ``
``Political Islam`` is the use of Islam to gain political power.......................it is distinct from Islam as a `spiritual` way prescribed by the almighty and revealed to the Prophet...............
with this simple distinction let me state that since you agree to keeping Islam out of politics let us now roll back the Islamization project of Pakistan that has been going on for quite a while........let us roll back all these so called ``Islamic`` states into secular democracies and keep the mullahs out of politics..............come on!! if NEPAL can change its constitution from being a religious Hindu State to a SECULAR STATE in 2006 A.D. why can`t PAkistan and all those so called ``Islamic`` states do the same??
``Lately, I have been hearing of `political islam` more often. I do not think you can make a distinction as if there are two Islams: One political and the other non-political. ``
``Political Islam`` is the use of Islam to gain political power.......................it is distinct from Islam as a `spiritual` way prescribed by the almighty and revealed to the Prophet...............
with this simple distinction let me state that since you agree to keeping Islam out of politics let us now roll back the Islamization project of Pakistan that has been going on for quite a while........let us roll back all these so called ``Islamic`` states into secular democracies and keep the mullahs out of politics..............come on!! if NEPAL can change its constitution from being a religious Hindu State to a SECULAR STATE in 2006 A.D. why can`t PAkistan and all those so called ``Islamic`` states do the same??
#51 Posted by echoboom on June 12, 2006 4:28:38 pm
#50 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on June 12, 2006 1:51:46 pm
Dr. Qazi,
Sir, while I am against capital punishment, I do support the eradication of poisonous reptiles, health-affecting insects, and cannibals. Mr. Zarqawi (LBUH) was a blood-thirsty, cruel, sadistic, madman who used Islamic resistance to justify his own barbaric and hideous hobby of decapitating innocent victims of ALL religions. His actions of killing as many Shias as possible is completely in sync with the Tally Bans, who practised the same policy in Afghanistan and have been influencing extremist Sunni radicals in Pakistan to do the same thing there. Zarqawi reminds us all of another blood-thirsty tyrant - Count Dracul of Transylvania in Romania. The TUrks finally beheaded that monster and posted his head in Istanbul.
Good riddance - my only regret is that it took 3 years too long to eliminate this curse. Everyone of the AlKayda, Tally Ban, SeS, JeM, LeJ, LeT, etc deserves the same fate.
Thank you America for a job well done. Those F-16`s are good for something.
Sir, while I am against capital punishment, I do support the eradication of poisonous reptiles, health-affecting insects, and cannibals. Mr. Zarqawi (LBUH) was a blood-thirsty, cruel, sadistic, madman who used Islamic resistance to justify his own barbaric and hideous hobby of decapitating innocent victims of ALL religions. His actions of killing as many Shias as possible is completely in sync with the Tally Bans, who practised the same policy in Afghanistan and have been influencing extremist Sunni radicals in Pakistan to do the same thing there. Zarqawi reminds us all of another blood-thirsty tyrant - Count Dracul of Transylvania in Romania. The TUrks finally beheaded that monster and posted his head in Istanbul.
Good riddance - my only regret is that it took 3 years too long to eliminate this curse. Everyone of the AlKayda, Tally Ban, SeS, JeM, LeJ, LeT, etc deserves the same fate.
Thank you America for a job well done. Those F-16`s are good for something.
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