It is a Paradox. Religion is supposed to provide peace. Numerous wars have been fought in the name of Religion. Religion is supposed to teach to live in peace. Numerous Deaths are caused in the name of Religion.

SUBCONTINENT`S ORIGINAL TERRORIST GANDHI WHO MIXED RELIGION WITH POLITICS



On What Gandhi wanted

The last week has been very busy. We have not had a moment`s leisure. We saw Mr. Theodore Morison of Aligarh and the well-known Mr. Stead of the Review of Reviews. Mr. Stead has boldly come out to give us all the help he can. He was therefore requested to write to the same Boer leaders that they should not consider Indians as being on the same level as Kaffirs

Indian Opinion, 15-12-1906, CWOMG Vol. 6, pg 183



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On What Gandhi wanted (3)

CLASSIFICATION OF ASIATICS WITH NATIVES

The cell was situated in the Native quarters and we were housed in one that was labeled `For Coloured Debtors`. It was this experience for which we were perhaps all unprepared. We had fondly imagined that we would have suitable quarters apart from the Natives. As it was, perhaps, just as well that we were classed with Natives. We would now be able to study the life of Native prisoners, their customs and manners. ...Degradation underlay the classing of Indians with natives. The Asiatic Act seemed to me to be the summit of our degradation. It did appear to me, as I think it would appear to any unprejudiced reader, that it would have been simple humanity if we were given special quarters. ...the Governor of the gaol tried to make us as comfortable as he could...But he was powerless to accommodate us beyond the horrible din and the yells of the Native prisoners throughout the day and partly at night also. Many of the native prisoners are only one degree removed from the animal and often created rows and fought amongst themselves in their cells.

Indian Opinion 7-3-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 120


Apart from whether or not this implies degradation, I must say it is rather dangerous. Kaffirs are as a rule uncivilized -- the convicts even more so. They are troublesome, very dirty, and live almost like animals. Each ward contains nearly 50 to 60 of them. They often started rows and fought among themselves. The reader can easily imagine the plight of the poor Indian thrown into such company

Indian Opinion, 7-3-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 135



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On What Gandhi wanted (2)

INDIANS ON PAR WITH KAFFIRS

There, our garments were stamped with the letter `N`, which meant that we were being classed with the Natives. We were all prepared for hardships, but not quite for this experience. We could understand not being classed with the whites, but to be placed on the same level with the Natives seemed too much to put up with. I then felt that Indians had launched on passive resistance too soon. Here was further proof that the obnoxious law was intended to emasculate the Indians.

It was, however, as well that we were classified with the Natives. It was a welcome opportunity to study the treatment meted out to the Natives, their conditions [of life in the gaol] and their habits. ...We were given a separate ward because we were sentenced to simple imprisonment; otherwise we would have been in the same ward [with the Kaffirs]. Indians sentenced to hard labour are in fact kept with the Kaffirs.

Apart from whether or not this implies degradation, I must say it is rather dangerous. Kaffirs are as a rule uncivilized -- the convicts even more so. They are troublesome, very dirty, and live almost like animals. Each ward contains nearly 50 to 60 of them. They often started rows and fought among themselves. The reader can easily imagine the plight of the poor Indian thrown into such company

Indian Opinion, 7-3-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 135



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On What Gandhi wanted (1)

I have, though, resolved in my mind on an agitation to ensure that Indian prisoners are not lodged with Kaffirs or others. When I arrived at the place, there were about 15 Indian prisoners. Except for three, all of them were satyagrahis. The three were charged with other offences. These prisoners were generally lodged with kaffirs. When I reached there, the chief warder issued an order that all of us should be lodged in a separate room. I observed with regret that some Indians were happy to sleep in the same room as the Kaffirs, the reason being that they hoped there for a secret supply of tobacco, etc. This is a matter of shame to us. We may entertain no aversion to the Kaffirs, but we cannot ignore the fact that there is no common ground between them and us in the daily affairs of life. Moreover, those who wish to sleep in the same room have ulterior motives for doing so.
Obviously, we ought to abandon such notions if we want to make progress.


Indian Opinion, 6-1-1909, CWOMG Vol. 9, pg 149



On What Gandhi wanted (9)



Gandhi`s disdain for black people continues:

It is one thing to register Natives who would not work, and whom it is very difficult to find out if they absent themselves, but it is another thing and most insulting to expect decent, hard-working, and respectable Indians, whose only fault is that they work too much, to have themselves registered

What is a Coolie, Indian Opinion 2151904, CWOMG Vol. 4, pg 193

CWOMG: Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi


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On What Gandhi wanted (8)



The whole affair is as much a disgrace to the Indian community as it is to the British Empire. The British rulers take us to be so lowly and ignorant that they assume that, like the Kaffirs who can be pleased with toys and pins, we can also be fobbed off with trinkets

Indian Opinion, 29-2-1908, CWOMG Vol. 8, pg 105

CWOMG: Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi


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On What Gandhi wanted (7)


More on SEPARATE AND UNEQUAL theory of Gandhiji...

His Excellency has, moreover, justified the definition of `coloured person` on the ground that it is a legacy from the old Government. But British Indians object to the definition for that very reason. Their position is this. The ordinances will not in practice apply to them. The Boer Government insulted the Indians by classing them with the Kaffirs. Now there is no occasion to perpetuate a needless insult

Indians in the O.R.C, Indian Opinion, 6-1-1906, CWOMG, Vol. 5, pg 177-178

Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi: CWOMG


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On What Gandhi wanted (6)


More on SEPARATE AND UNEQUAL theory of Gandhiji...

His Excellency has, moreover, justified the definition of `coloured person` on the ground that it is a legacy from the old Government. But British Indians object to the definition for that very reason. Their position is this. The ordinances will not in practice apply to them. The Boer Government insulted the Indians by classing them with the Kaffirs. Now there is no occasion to perpetuate a needless insult

Indians in the O.R.C, Indian Opinion, 6-1-1906, CWOMG, Vol. 5, pg 177-178

Collected Works of Mahatma Gandhi: CWOMG


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On What Gandhi wanted (5)



It reduces British Indians to a status lower than that of the aboriginal races of South Africa and the Coloured people.

Indian Opinion 15-9-1906, CWOMG Vol. 5, pg 419-423

On What Gandhi wanted (14)

On Minority White rule in South Africa:

We, therefore, have no hesitation in agreeing with the view that in the long run assisted Asiatic immigration into the Transvaal would be disastrous to the white settlement. People will gradually accommodate themselves to relying upon Asiatic labour, and any White immigration of the special class required in the Transvaal on a large scale will be practically impossible. It would be equally unfair to the Natives of the soil. It is all very well to say that they would not work, and that, if the Asiatics were introduced, that would be a stimulus to work; but human nature is the same everywhere, and once Asiatic labour is resorted to, there would not be a sustained effort to induce the Natives to work under what would otherwise be, after all, gentle compulsion. There would be then less talk about taxing the Natives and so forth. Natives themselves, used as they are to a very simple mode of life, will always be able to command enough wages to meet their wants; and the result will be putting back their progress for an indefinite length of time. We have used the words `gentle compulsion` in the best sense of the term; we mean compulsion of the same kind that a parent exercises over children


Indian Opinion, 9-7-1903, CWOMG Vol. 3, pg 359-360

CWOMG: COLLECTED WORKS OF MAHATMA GANDHI.

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On What Gandhi wanted (13)


On Minority White rule in South Africa:

We, therefore, have no hesitation in agreeing with the view that in the long run assisted Asiatic immigration into the Transvaal would be disastrous to the white settlement. People will gradually accommodate themselves to relying upon Asiatic labour, and any White immigration of the special class required in the Transvaal on a large scale will be practically impossible. It would be equally unfair to the Natives of the soil. It is all very well to say that they would not work, and that, if the Asiatics were introduced, that would be a stimulus to work; but human nature is the same everywhere, and once Asiatic labour is resorted to, there would not be a sustained effort to induce the Natives to work under what would otherwise be, after all, gentle compulsion. There would be then less talk about taxing the Natives and so forth. Natives themselves, used as they are to a very simple mode of life, will always be able to command enough wages to meet their wants; and the result will be putting back their progress for an indefinite length of time. We have used the words `gentle compulsion` in the best sense of the term; we mean compulsion of the same kind that a parent exercises over children


For Beej who is apparently BLIND: Indian Opinion, 9-7-1903, CWOMG Vol. 3, pg 359-360

CWOMG: COLLECTED WORKS OF MAHATMA GANDHI.


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On What Gandhi wanted (12)



What the British Indians pray for is very little. They ask for no political power. They admit the British race should be the dominant race in South Africa. All they ask for is freedom for those that are now settled and those that may be allowed to come in future to trade, to move about, and to hold landed property without any hindrance save the ordinary legal requirements

Petition to Natal Legislature, CWOMG, vol3, pg 330


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On What Gandhi wanted (11)


Ah... and they said Plessey Vs Ferguson was bad...

Well here is Gandhi with his theory of ``Separate and Unequal``

...The petition dwells upon ``the co-mingling of the Coloured and white races``. May we inform the members of the conference that, so far as the British Indians are concerned, such a thing is practically unknown? If there is one thing, which the Indian cherishes more than any other, it is the purity of type. Why bring such a question into the controversy at all?

The Transvaal Chambers and British Indians, Indian Opinion 24-12-03, CWOMG Vol. 4, pg 89


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On What Gandhi wanted (10)

More on Gandhi`s theory of ``separate and unequal``

Why, of all places in Johannesburg, the Indian Location should be chosen for dumping down all the Kaffirs of the town passes my comprehension. ...Of course, under my suggestion, The Town Council must withdraw the Kaffirs from the Location. About this mixing of Kaffirs with the Indians, I must confess I feel most strongly

Indian Opinion, 10-4-04, CWOMG Vol. 4, pg 130-131



Other Gandhian Statements that we need to consider...

`Sanghtan is a really sound movement. Every community is entitled, indeed bound to organize itself as a seperate entity` : Mahatma Gandhi

(Young India January 6th 1927)


A translation of a Gujrati essay he wrote in 1922 for Niya Jawan

(1) I believe that if Hindu Society has been able to stand it is because it is founded on the caste system.
(2) The seeds of swaraj are to be found in the caste system. Different castes are like different sections of miliary division. Each division is working for the good of the whole....

(3) A community which can create the caste system must be said to possess unique power of organization.

(4) Caste has a ready made means for spreading primary education. Each caste can take the responsibility for the education of the children of the caste. Caste has a political basis. It can work as an electorate for a representative body. Caste can perform judicial functions by electing persons to act as judges to decide disputes among members of the same caste. With castes it is easy to raise a defense force by requiring each caste to raise a brigade.

(5) I believe that interdining or intermarriage are not necessary for promoting national unity. That dining together creates friendship is contrary to experience. If this was true there would have been no war in Europe.... Taking food is as dirty an act as answering the call of nature. The only difference is that after answering call of nature we get peace while after eating food we get discomfort. Just as we perform the act of answering the call of nature in seclusion so also the act of taking food must also be done in seclusion.

(6) In India children of brothers do not intermarry. Do they cease to love because they do not intermarry? Among the Vaishnavas many women are so orthodox that they will not eat with members of the family nor will they drink water from a common water pot. Have they no love? The caste system cannot be said to be bad because it does not allow interdining or intermarriage between different castes.

(7) Caste is another name for control. Caste puts a limit on enjoyment. Caste does not allow a person to transgress caste limits in pursuit of his enjoyment. That is the meaning of such caste restrictions as interdining and intermarriage.

(8) To destroy caste system and adopt Western European social system means that Hindus must give up the principle of hereditary occupation which is the soul of the caste system. Hereditary principle is an eternal principle. To change it is to create disorder. I have no use for a Brahmin if I cannot call him a Brahmin for my life. It will be a chaos if every day a Brahmin is to be changed into a Shudra and a Shudra is to be changed into a Brahmin.

(9) The caste system is a natural order of society. In India it has been given a religious coating. Other countries not having understood the utility of the caste system, it existed only in a loose condition and consequently those countries have not derived from caste system the same degree of advantage which India has derived. These being my views I am opposed to all those who are out to destroy the caste system.


and my favorite:

The rule of a Musalman is that of a Bully


Can we end this drama here ... and accept that Jinnah`s comments - that some quote out of context- were merely tit for tat to Gandhi- who was a bigot...

Fairminded conclusion would suggest so...

Re: # 62

Salimbhai,

Thanks.

VRV #59 {``We know that debate on terrorism is one-sided. If Muslims only fight as a religious duty then it degenerates to a clash of religions. If you you take the help of others and fight the injustices then it`s a moral fight between the good and evil. ``}

VRV Bhai,
In three short sentences, you have beautfiully articulated the proper course for normal Muslims to take. Religion is supposed to teach us right from wrong and how to follow the straight path - sirat-ul-mustaqim. If we are bad to begin with, then we are wrong. If we do bad things in revenge for bad things, then we are still wrong. If we join others in doing good things, then we are right and our philosophy (i.e. Islam) is presented in a good light. If we all start wearing militant religious uniforms (Crusaders with huge crosses, vestsed Jihadis wearing coffin shrouds, Hindu militants all painted up for violence, or Jewish settlers with beards and guns), then we are all bad. Thanks.

Re: # 60

Wah Salimbhai.

TahirQazi #57 {``Nonetheless, I enjoy reading your perspective. By the way what do you think, is violence part of human nature?``}

Tahir Bhai,
Thank you for attempting to extract religion out of the discussion about violence. I think that violence is certainly a part of the animal aspect of human nature - as much as hunger, pain, thirst, desire to procreate, defecation, and urination are also animal aspects of ``human`` nature. Ostensibly, what sets us apart from the other creatures is our ability to rationalize, our sense of guilt and shame, and our conscience. Thus, as humans, we have learned to control our animal instincts and have channeled them into a ``right time and right place`` confinement. Nevertheless, there are ``humans`` who are adept at using justification, especially in God`s name, national security, for freedom`s sake, in the defense of family, faith, and tribe, or citing sacred scriptures, to take liberties with human taboos against killing, looting, raping, and enslaving. So we have animal behavior, human attempt to control this behavior, and inhumane craftiness in committing excessive and brutal animal behavior for ``good`` causes. Thanks.

Re: # 57

We know that debate on terrorism is one-sided. If Muslims only fight as a religious duty then it degenerates to a clash of religions. If you you take the help of others and fight the injustices then it`s a moral fight between the good and evil.

It doesn`t need to expalain that who created Osama and Zarqawi or Jihad. The US did create these monsters and they are now struggling to contain them. If Muslims get enraged and seek more of religious booster then it`s dissented by people like me, bcoz of what they do it in our midst and what they do to themselves and how they end-up screw-up our futures.

You may be aware that many white Americans hate these Bush wars (many more in UK). So to me to be morally strong we need to fight the two mad dogs as a morally superior beings than being a monster or supporter of religous fanatics.

A small story:

There`s a village. One day a person found on his head an outgrowth of two horns. All others in the village surrounded him and killed him.

After sometime all had an outgrowth of horns on their heads except one. All the horned people surrounded the lone normal guy and killed him.

The moral of the story is that we live in a society where we find fewer people who developed horns (terrorists).

Re: # 57

`Conflict` is part of the nature`s scheme.......... but the almighty has already revealed the way to overcome it through `co-operation` which is what Islam is all about.......... it is about co-operation between humans in the spiritual way revealed through the Holy Prophet(PBUH).........so Islam is all about co-operation and peace............violence is an aberration that comes because some zealous want to en-force cooperation which never happens because the spiritual path can only descend and does not come through mere imitation of practices................

Dear Salim_Chauhan, ballukhan & VRV

Thanks for elevating the discussion to a higher level.

Ideologies and religions live in human minds. I suspect they have doubtful survival independent of humans. One of the problems with ideologies is ease of their ‘corruptibility’, which in reality is a reflection of human nature.

Spiritual or political Islam (Religion/ideology) whatever the way we look at it, does not ensure that it will not conform to whims of its practitioners. Also, you can easily find verses in Koran and Bible that justify violence and some other verses that speak for peace. Actually, they are contradictory to each other. Which verse one would choose to refer to at a certain time is an individual pick I suppose, but they are there.

I guess it is worthwhile to examine issues related to violence in human nature and desire for peace at a human level, and coming to a mental resolution between two contradictory impulses at a human level, beyond religions and some of the non-religious ideologies also, ultra-nationalism for example & so on. It is a long discussion. Nonetheless, I enjoy reading your perspective. By the way what do you think, is violence part of human nature?

Regards,

Tahir Qazi

Ballukhan #52, {````Political Islam`` is the use of Islam to gain political ower.......................it is distinct from Islam as a `spiritual` way prescribed by the almighty and revealed to the Prophet...............

with this simple distinction let me state that since you agree to keeping Islam out of politics let us now roll back the Islamization project of Pakistan that has been going on for quite a while......come on!! if NEPAL can change its constitution from being a religious Hindu State to a SECULAR STATE in 2006 A.D. why can`t PAkistan and all those so called ``Islamic`` states do the same?? ``}

Ballu Bhai,
Amen, brother, Amen. Very clearly and effectively stated. Now all we need are some people who love Islam enough to save it from total evaporation. Secularism will be the best thing to happen for Islam - the poor faith has been hijacked, used, abused, trashed, exploited, villified, and usurped by selfish mad mullahs. These fundo fanatics want to keep Muslims ignorant, backward, and helpless so that they can rule them with ``God`s will.``

Re: # 54
Ouch did I touch a raw nerve ....

If you read what I write, with an open mind, you would know ... wait a sec ... are you one of
those - ``We-know-what-we-are-doing-is-wrong,-but-you-need-to-understand-us`` types ???

If u don`t hav the guts to take on the evil within, put up & shut up.

Re: # 1 He was homo Islamus....this is a different species

-N u think u learnt somethin 4m this article.I only wish u did!

once all these so called ``Islamic`` states roll back into secular democracies I can guarantee that all these Islamists running wild would be just a thing of the past...............and we can all enjoy the fruits of the modernity and its technology without worrying about the nuclear suicide bombing which is certain to happen otherwise......................

Re: # 43

``Lately, I have been hearing of `political islam` more often. I do not think you can make a distinction as if there are two Islams: One political and the other non-political. ``

``Political Islam`` is the use of Islam to gain political power.......................it is distinct from Islam as a `spiritual` way prescribed by the almighty and revealed to the Prophet...............

with this simple distinction let me state that since you agree to keeping Islam out of politics let us now roll back the Islamization project of Pakistan that has been going on for quite a while........let us roll back all these so called ``Islamic`` states into secular democracies and keep the mullahs out of politics..............come on!! if NEPAL can change its constitution from being a religious Hindu State to a SECULAR STATE in 2006 A.D. why can`t PAkistan and all those so called ``Islamic`` states do the same??

This will make #48 easier to access. Thanks

Dr. Qazi,
Sir, while I am against capital punishment, I do support the eradication of poisonous reptiles, health-affecting insects, and cannibals. Mr. Zarqawi (LBUH) was a blood-thirsty, cruel, sadistic, madman who used Islamic resistance to justify his own barbaric and hideous hobby of decapitating innocent victims of ALL religions. His actions of killing as many Shias as possible is completely in sync with the Tally Bans, who practised the same policy in Afghanistan and have been influencing extremist Sunni radicals in Pakistan to do the same thing there. Zarqawi reminds us all of another blood-thirsty tyrant - Count Dracul of Transylvania in Romania. The TUrks finally beheaded that monster and posted his head in Istanbul.

Good riddance - my only regret is that it took 3 years too long to eliminate this curse. Everyone of the AlKayda, Tally Ban, SeS, JeM, LeJ, LeT, etc deserves the same fate.
Thank you America for a job well done. Those F-16`s are good for something.

EchoBhai #48,
Thanks for sharing this wonderful account of Iran from someone who returned after 25 years. It`s really amazing to note what progress determined people can make once the doors of handouts, aid, and free trade are shut in their face. As they say, necessity is the mother of invention. Perhaps Paki leaders should take note, as you said, and concentrate on social, economic, and educational development rather than salivate at the prospect of a return to ``democracy`` and the free for all at the feeding troughs of corruption and insider prosperity. I am truly happy for Iran. The western press is indeed so biased against Iran that they never dare to publish anything positive.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Re: # 13
You, my friend, are very naive apologist for Haroon Siddiqui: Just because he was an editor does not make him a man to be admired. Here is why: I have followed hius writings in Canada very well, my friend!

Siddiqui in recent years has reduced himself into a colomnist who has nothing but tirades and rantings against US, and an apologist and defender of Islam at any cost. He never admits the darker side of followers of Islam. He is a CLOSET ISLAMIST. He has become at the end of journey a very bitter man. BTW he is not permitted to enter USA.

In all his writings he never felt a twinge of `feeling of sorry` for those who suffered under Arab Muslim`` Brethren`` as in Darfur, Negeria or Copts in Egypt etc. His writings DOES NOT mention one word about the tragedy of Tibetans or even the tragedy of AAfghans suffering under Talibs. It is OK to side with tragedy of Muslims and he never mentions anything about the tragedy of Non-Muslims. Need I say more?
No doubt his classical Madrassah education comes very handy.

Kamath

#30 by TahirQazi on June 11, 2006 9:51pm PT


I think Mahatma Gandhi got it right when he argued for use of peaceful methodology for sake of peace. Let me know how you guys feel about this.


Gandhi`s dead..his only relevance in today`s world is a amazingly boring movie that won the oscar instead of E.T...

That and his quotes that people always quote out of context..

The point is, who gave a surge to Political Islam. Were it not the Political Economy Compulsions of the Containment Theory? Was it not the US Administration that recruited radical Islamists from world over and waged a MOCK JEHAD in Afghanistan? Was it not the US Secretary of State, Standing before Afghan refugees in a camp at Jallozai near Peshawar, who called for Jehad against the evil Soviet Empire? Was it not in pursuance of meeting such objectives that USA supported non representive regime in Pakistan and expedient Islamisation in the Zia era.

Now my explanation of Political Islam. It is the exploitation of religion in its containment policy and subsequent abandonment that has resulted in this floating threat.

Cheerios

Re: # 43

Tahirbhai,

To me u dont sound like a Pakistani.

Yes, Jinnah was not religious but practioner of poilitical Islam, Advani is not spiritual but practioner of political Hinduism, Bush is religious but not spiritual kind but practioner of political Christianity(disguised as a peace activist, read British newspapers).

Common ground is possible, remotely.

Good thinking Tahir.

Best.

Dear ballukhan & VRV, ijaz_gul, majumdar and bjkumar

>>“… the problem lies with political Islam practiced in Pakistan and UAE”

Lately, I have been hearing of `political islam` more often. I do not think you can make a distinction as if there are two Islams: One political and the other non-political. I suppose, dangers lurk in both of these guises and in any religious ideology for that matter.

There is only way out: State ought to be secular with focus on social justice. This will seamlessly and effortlessly work for raising peace consciousness also.

I also think that spider-web of violence problem extends beyond boundaries of one state or the other. Would you consider, efforts for peace-based solutions better defy boundaries laid by states?

Regards,

Tahir Qazi

Mushahid Hussain Syed has said that present assemblies would re-elect President Musharraf for next five-year term in September 2007 before the general elections.

TheNews.com.pk today:

It`s official that Musharraf decided to make the people of Pakistan a bunch of Ulloos for another five years. As always the lackey Mushahid `Mandela` delivered the msg! Wah Pakistan! Wah Wah!

How an outgoing Assemblies would elect the Prez and how that would be valid? Why cant Mush face the electorate as Olugesan Obasanjo did it in Nigeria? Is he timid or does he think that the awaam are too numb to oppose this anal orgy? As a Mush watcher I find this normal but as a neighbour of Pakistan this is another round of misery and sabre-rattling in Indian subcontinent, not to mention the MMA`s support to Taliban and taking care of Osama and ofcourse another term of misery for the awaam of Pakistan. Amen.

Wow kiya shajer e nasab banayia hai. Only one link was left out and that is the US percieved threat from Communism. If you add this then Jinnah cannot be linked.
FOR THE WANT OF A NAIL THE COUNTRY WAS LOST.
Cheerios

hum aah bhi bhartey hain tau ho jaatey hain badnaam,
woh qatl bhi kartey hain tau charcha nahi hota

Re: # 29

Sri,

That`s irresponsible (nuke-hawkism). They are not meant to be used.

There are few states that swore by extremism eg. Iran (Libya was subdued, all other extremist states backtracked except Pakistan, coz military rulers in Pak play Jekyll and Hyde with the west). Most of the Arab states are reforming slowly. That`s a consolation.The only states that are problem-makers are Iran and Pakistan. You dont find any arab kingdom speaking of Ummah but a non-arab states like Pakistan does, though Arabs treat Pakistanis as dirt (Prof. Istaiq Ahmed, Daily Times sometime last month). They had a strange sense of Ummah - it sounds surreal.

Dawn of democracy in Pak would make some difference. Let`s see what happens in 2007. If not, creation of independent Balochistan would make some difference in the region, coz that would cut Iran and Pakistan to size; Balochis promise a Turkey in this region.

The more one considers it, the more obvious it is who the real culprit for the world’s current curse of terrorism is.

The killer Zarqawi would have been a nobody without prominence from the Iraq war!

There would not have been an Iraq war without 9/11.

There would not have been a 9/11 without OBL getting refuge given by Taleban in Afghanistan.

There would not have been a Taleban in Afghanistan without the Pakistanis creating it and nurturing it and continuing to support it – before 9/11, after 9/11, and even now!

The Pakistanis would not have done so without their doctrine of Ummah superiority – and their depraved need to justify their existence – and their two nation theory – and that mindset of exclusivity which thinks that being a Muslim makes one superior to being anything else!

That mindset would not have happened without that dead man Jinnah – the subcontinent’s ORIGINAL terrorist – who held a gun to its head to get his way – and the rivers of blood which he got flowing, which have continued ever since in so many forms!!

Jinnah – the original troublemaker – directly responsible for Pakistan’s current state of failure and the cesspool that it finds itself in and which it has been since trying to drag the rest of the world into! The country of Pakistan can only recover from the self inflicted wounds of Jinnah’s curse if the people of that failing country pull that demagogue and place him where he truly belongs – by hanging him from the nearest tree!

I wish there were a way to go back in time and ensure that Jinnah’s mom got herself an abortion! How different the world could have been!

REf#36

Sorry Gandhi did not say but he use to sing

Vaishnav jan to re tainay re kahiye , jo peer paraayi jane re.

Ref#30

Dear Tahir

When you quoted Gandhi, I thought this Mr Tahir ( Bird) although does not have wings but he does have taqat-e-parvaaz.

Truth is the wings and good ness of towords every body in the universe is flight of truth.

Gandhi also said

Vaishnav jan to re tainay re kahiye , jo peer paraayi jane re.

``The one who can feel the pain of others is the man of god.``

Enev Kothan ( Mohammad`s original name) does not qualify to be called as man of god and forget about Zarqawi or for that reason any cruel govt.

So Jan-e-biraader why this dilemma ``What to feel``. You should feel what realy want to feel. Even Nasah is showing your kind of dilemma.

Also Dear Echoboom ( WC ka dhamaaka),

If you have finished can you please pull the chain.

Tahir bhai,

(I think Mahatma Gandhi got it right when he argued for use of peaceful methodology for sake of peace. Let me know how you guys feel about this. )

Please convince ur compatriot YLH that MKG was a man of peace.

Regards

Roll back all these ``Islamic`` states into secular ones.............everything would be fine..........

I have not read any of the comments on your article yet, but I have my own very strong views on the subjects such as this.

Just like politics swings from cooperation>persuassion>coercion to violence, the most important fuel to ignite the process and keep it alive are the emotions of hate, need and love. In long drawn conflicts this social dimension of strategy cannot be overlooked.

If Zarqawi`s death had passed on as a routine news, that was it; like so many other people dying in Iraq. This wide coverage and statements by all concerned are going to fuel more hate and the timber will burn more incessantly.

America`s war in Iraq looks more a War of Hate and remote from what the statue of Liberty stands for.

Yet as a human, I pray I am wrong.

Cheerios

........................ we see these aberrations like the echosqueaks and masadis because states like Pakistan or Saudi Arabia which have been `normalizing` Jehadist Islamist ideologies to create citizens who completely believe the state sponsored `truths` about other cultures despite seeing overwhelming evidence against their ideology............. the problem lies with political Islam practiced in Pakistan and UAE............. roll back all these states into secular political entities and you would see how the Islamists would stop running wild all over the globe and the healthy liberal scepticism becoming part of the muslim psyche...............if NEPAL CAN DO IT THEN WHY NOT PAKISTAN AND UAE???

Guys are you listening???

Re: # 30

Need we repeat the lesson we all learnt from WWII and the fate of Hitler and the Japanese Emperor`s Nizam-e-Mustafa???

We should all take heed from the history and avoid useless bloodshed before it is too late!

Dear Sri and friends!

I am sure you are aware of this strange phenomenon of collective human nature, more you try to suppress more forcefully will it bounce back in due course of time.

Force can temporarily suppress but cannot bring about peace, I think. What are your thoughts? Don’t you think peace is a better virtue than violence? I think Mahatma Gandhi got it right when he argued for use of peaceful methodology for sake of peace. Let me know how you guys feel about this.

Regards,

Tahir Qazi

The US should do what it did to the Japanese. The shock treatment was a necessary evil needed to destroy the cultish behavior. Now, Islamic cultists badly need a Nuke treatment.

George Galloway:

The great muslim (converted?) member of Parliament now has a beard & has always a tasbeeh (prayer bead in hand).

He had this to say about the thuGGs Blair & Bush. Are the mutts from the slaveland listening?

Galloway pours petrol on the flames
By Tim Butcher, Middle East Correspondent

In his most inflammatory outburst yet on the invasion of Iraq, George Galloway has sought to justify lethal attacks on British troops on the grounds that the rebels ``are defending all the people of the world from American hegemony``.

Mr Galloway described the insurgents as ``ragged people, with their sandals, with their Kalashnikovs, with the lightest and most basic of weapons`` but who were still managing to defeat the world`s only superpower.

George Galloway appearing on al-Jazeera television

The Respect MP for Bethnal Green and Bow denounced those Iraqis who had joined the security forces as ``collaborators`` and said it was ``normal`` for them to be targets for suicide bombers - who have killed hundreds of them.

His remarks, contained in a series of interviews broadcast by three Arab television stations after a recent visit he made to Syria, were more provocative than the comments that led to his expulsion from the Labour Party in 2003.

In what the party interpreted as incitement to attack British forces, Mr Galloway said at the height of the American-led invasion in March 2003: ``Iraq is fighting for all the Arabs. Where are the Arab armies?``

In an interview broadcast on al-Jazeera late last month, Mr Galloway accused President George W Bush and Tony Blair of being terrorists for launching an invasion that cost civilian lives. ``It is not the Muslims who are the terrorists,`` he said. ``The biggest terrorists are Bush and Blair.``

Mocking America`s military capabilities, he said the superpower was being defeated by a rag-tag army of lightly-armed soldiers in sandals.

``[The Americans] can control the skies if they don`t come within range of a rocket-propelled grenade,`` he said. ``But they cannot control one single street in any part of occupied Iraq.

``These poor Iraqis… are writing the names of their cities and towns in the stars. With 145 military operations every day, they have made the country ungovernable by the people who occupy it.``

Making no reference to this year`s election in Iraq or to the many Iraqis who have been willing to work for the new government, he continued to paint a romantic image of the insurgency.

``We don`t know who they are,`` he said. ``We don`t know their names; we never saw their faces; they don`t put up photographs of their martyrs; we don`t know the names of their leaders. They are the base of this society. They are the young men and the young women who decided, whatever their feelings about the former regime - some are with, some are against.

``But they decided, when the foreign invaders came, to defend their country, to defend their honour, to defend their families, their religion, their way of life from a military superpower which landed amongst them. And they are winning the war. America is losing the war in Iraq and even the Americans now admit it.

``The resistance is getting stronger every day and the will to remain as an occupier by Britain and America is getting weaker every day.

``Therefore it can be said that the Iraqi resistance is not just defending Iraq. They are defending all the Arabs and they are defending all the people of the world from American hegemony.``

In another section of the interview, carried by Arab News Broadcasting, Mr Galloway denied the claim, made by American and British forces, that most of the resistance was coming from non-Iraqi fighters. ``Most of the resistance is Iraqis resisting the foreign occupation of their country,`` Mr Galloway said.

``Most of the operations which they carry out are against the occupying forces and their collaborators and this is normal in every liberation struggle.``

In a third section of the interview, this time carried on Syrian television, Mr Galloway appealed to the Arab world, drawing a parallel between Baghdad under coalition control and Jerusalem under Israeli control since the 1967 war.

``Two of your beautiful daughters are in the hands of foreigners: Jerusalem and Baghdad,`` he said. ``The foreigners are doing to your daughters as they will. The daughters are crying for help and the Arab world is silent. Some of them are collaborating with the rape of these two beautiful Arab daughters. Why? Because they are too weak and too corrupt to do anything about it.``

During the part of the interview broadcast on al-Jazeera, Mr Galloway made a pun that, at first sight, suggested that he had become a Muslim.

``We believe in the prophets; peace be upon them,`` he said. ``Mr Bush believes in the profits and how to get a piece of them. That`s his god. That`s his god.

``George Bush worships money. That`s his god: Mammon.``

Adding the words ``peace be upon him`` in any reference to the Prophet Mohammed is common in Islam. But Mr Galloway is believed to have been referring to the prophets such as Moses, Abraham and Adam, who are recognised equally by Christians and Muslims.

Last night, Mr Galloway stood by his remarks but denied putting British troops at risk in Iraq by calling insurgents ``martyrs``.

Eric Joyce, a Labour MP who served as a major in the Army, led criticism of Mr Galloway. ``Passing comments like these puts the lives of British soldiers at risk and devalues the lives of British soldiers,`` he said.

Eric Moonman, a former Labour MP and ex-serviceman, said the comments ought to be investigated by the Speaker of the House of Commons, Michael Martin.

``Galloway`s remarks border on the unstable,`` he said. ``He is throwing petrol on the flames and putting at risk the soldiers who serve the country he is supposed to represent``

Gerald Howarth, the Conservatives` defence spokesman, said: ``Our Armed Forces are doing a fantastic job in the Middle East. It is utterly irresponsible to do anything which undermines the work that they are doing.``

Experts in the Arab world said Mr Galloway was, consciously or unconsciously, aping the rhetoric of extremists. ``No ordinary Arab politician or even journalist, would use such heightened language,`` said one. ``To say your daughter is being raped is, for an Arab, completely over the top.``

Re: # 25
Wow so echo talks too ....

here it goes buddy .... Zawahiri , old mo the horrible and osama are all in hell waiting
for your arrival .... every bodybag that has come is of a soul that is in heaven after
fighting God`s war.
karmanye vadhika raste, Ma phaleshu kadachana;
ma karma phala he tur bhuh, ma te sangvasta karmani;

You have a duty, you have an obligation to do, but you have no right to expect a particular
consequence or result or fruit to follow from what you do.
[Bhagawad Gita]

Every innocent that was beheaded from 700 AD till now is in paradise enjoying gods` company , and mo`s cheerleaders like urself are just gonna stab mo again and again and again for leading u to where u gonna end.

By the way, it is such a nice feeling to know, that by coming to the US AND paying the US
government my tax dues, I am helping in my own small way in strngthening gods` hands.

Re: # 24

masadi is the cut and paste marvel who is actually looking for some generous funding from gullible ummah by spamming the internet with his mismash of Elite Theory and Islamist Conspiracy Theory advertised as `truth`..........he has already seen the tremendous financial as well as `social` pay back in his ventures.......so he would continue to peddle his `truths` till he gets his pay back from the gullible ummah................I do not think he is any different from a common mullah who tries to extract his pound of flesh from the ummah through his twisted logic................................... If he gets the message that his theory is only good as a goat`s feed then he would stop wasting every one`s time........

#22 by hamidm2

I have already acknowledged that your biggest asset is in your jeans & you just can`t help it. You agree with that too , so there`s no argument.

Case closed.

P.S: But it would be nice if you filled in for those gone awol or are returning in bodybags...they also pay taxes. Or are lapsed Ahmedis dhimmis in Thuggland?

Re: # 23

masadi,

``How else can the american govt justify to its people the half trillion dollars defense budget.``

........... like i said, i am happy to make my contribution so that the world is a safer place for my children ............ i would even be willing to pay an extra 5% if that`s what it takes to put more troops on the ground ........ i am sure you too are making a significant contribution even thought you might not like it - in any case, we thank you !

You cant help but marvel at the dexterity of US government to ``manage`` international events. In one skillful stroke - or a 500lb bomb to be exact - all of a sudden the US government is being hailed (at least in the media) as the savior of the Iraqi people. And why not? It has tracked and killed the boogieman that was killing Iraqis. Yes, the debate is now no longer focused on the killings of Iraqis at the hands of Americans. 50 in a wedding, 30 in haditha, thousands in Falluja, and 100,000 during the actual invasion. Now, lo and behold, by killing a mad killer, america is on the side of the iraqis. No longer is this question asked: Was Zarqawi killing iraqis before americans invaded and destroyed that country? Doesnt matter. The pictures of iraqis dancing in the streets are being splashed around the globe. More iraqis would have joined but its just that many of them have fewer limbs than they used to before the invasion.

And you can appreciate the skillful hands of US government in maneuvering the world debate when this week`s Economist has its cover story on ``Iraq after Zarqawi``. It is as if all that carnage, all that billions of dollars of destruction, all those tens of thousands of lost lives are now put squarely in the bucket of Zarqawi. It is as if it was he who was running the country and it was him who was causing all that mayhem over the last 3 years. It is as if without Zarqawi being there, Iraqis would have embraced democracy and other american values long time ago.

Consultants often joke that the best way to generate business with a client is to create a problem and then solve it. And so the legend of Osama, Zarqawi, Zawhiri and many more is created and nurtured over years, so that when that legend is finally destroyed the world breaths a collective sigh of relief and thanks American govt for delivering them from a dangerous man. And this cycle will continue. Already the US government is warning Americans to hold on to celebrations, as their is another boogeyman in the making: Al-Masri.

How else can the american govt justify to its people the half trillion dollars defense budget.

Re: # 20

echo,

..... nothing against goats but, unlike the faithful, i do prefer women ! .... anyway, like i was telling your soul mate urstruly on the other board, you too should turn in your al-mohajiroon card and stop dreaming about establishing the khilafat because pretty soon they will find osama, his one-eyed brother-in-law and zawahiri, the man with the mark of the devil on his forehead ............ it is fait accompli

...... and i really don`t mind my tax dollars being spent for a good cause - my only concern is that we are not doing enough .......... that`s why i will be glad when mccain becomes president and puts in another hundred thousand men to clean up that bad neighborhood .........

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

#18 by hamidm2
Flushing you out and getting your goat is always a fuzzy warm feeling. Thanks.

Worry not! who knows you might be around ( Ferrigno thinks) to see the Islamic Republic of USA ..... and you will be in the forefront to offer your behind to the new masters...its in your jeans (sic).

P.S:So when are you going to stop drooling & slurping Phupaa Bush`s behind and start filling the vacuum left by those gone awol or into bodybags?

Re: # 4

I don`t think media is free in this regard. Right after the invasion of Afghanistan the Pakistani media was forced through a directive by Ministry of Disinformation not to address the killed Afghan people as Shaheed or those who took up arms to restore freedom to their land. A google search will be able to lead you to that directive.

Re: # 17

echoboom,

.........i see you are peeing in your pants again to get that nice warm feeling ! ....... you should stop hanging out with the bearded boys at the mosque before you do something stupid like those idiots in toronto ...........

Novelist Robert Ferrigno

and


the Islamic Republic of the

USA

---

Novelist Robert Ferrigno imagines the Islamic Republic of America in the year 2040

MARK STEYN

The second half of the Super Bowl began right after midday prayers. The fans in Khomeini Stadium had performed their ablutions by rote, awkwardly prostrating themselves, heels splayed, foreheads not even touching the ground. . .

At the speed history`s moving right now, you gotta get your futuristic novels in fast, and Robert Ferrigno`s is the first in the potentially extensive genre of Islamotopian fiction. In Prayers for the Assassin, the fun starts on the inside cover: a map of the Islamic Republic of America in the year 2040. The nation extends over most of the north and west of the Lower 48. Chicago, Detroit and the East Coast cities are ruined and abandoned, Mount Rushmore is rubble, and Seattle is the new capital. Catholics remain as a subordinate class to their Muslim rulers. The evangelicals -- the ``peckerwoods`` -- are hunkered down in a breakaway state called ``the Bible Belt`` (the old Confederacy), where they still have the Second Amendment and the original Coca-Cola formula: up north, they have to make do with Jihad Cola, which sucks big time. South Florida is an ``independent unaligned`` area, the Mormon Territories have held out, and the Nevada Free State remains a den of gambling, alcohol and fornication. And in the most intriguing detail on the map, there`s a dotted line heading through Washington state to B.C. marked ``Rakkim`s route to Canada`` -- the new underground railroad along which he smuggles Jews, gays and other problematic identity groups to freedom across the forty-ninth parallel. I can suspend almost all disbelief at the drop of a hat, but the notion of our already semi-dhimmified Dominion as a beacon of liberty is certainly among the harder conceits to swallow.

Every successful novelist has to convey the sense that his characters` lives continue when they`re not on the page: an author has to know what grade school his middle-aged businessman went to even if it`s never mentioned in the book. In an invented world, that goes double. And in a ``what if?`` scenario, where you`re overlaying an unfamiliar pattern on the known map, it goes at least triple. Saying ``Imagine the U.S. under a Muslim regime`` is the easy bit, creating the ``State Security`` apparatus and Mullah Oxley`s ``Black Robes`` -- a Saudi-style religious police -- is only marginally more difficult. It`s being able to conceive the look of a cul-de-sac in a suburban subdivision -- what`s the same, what`s different -- that determines whether the proposition works or not. Ferrigno has some obvious touches -- the USS Ronald Reagan is now the Osama bin Laden -- and some inspired ones -- the Super Bowl cheerleaders are all male -- but it`s the rich layers of detail that bring the world to life. In one scene, a character`s in the back of a cab and the driver`s listening to the radio: instead of Dr. Laura and Dr. Phil, it`s a popular advice show called ``What Should I Do, Imam?`` It doesn`t have any direct bearing on the plot but it reinforces the sense of a fully conceived landscape. There`s no scene set in 2028, but if you asked Ferrigno what Character A was doing that year he`d be able to tell you. If you said ``What`s Dublin or Brussels like in this world?`` he`d have a rough idea.

The Islamic Republic came into being 25 years earlier in the wake of simultaneous nuclear explosions in New York, Washington and Mecca: ``5-19-2015 NEVER FORGET.`` A simple Arabic edition of the Koran found undamaged in the dust of D.C. now has pride of place at the House of Martyrs War Museum. On the other hand, the peckerwoods retrieved from the wreckage the statue of Jefferson, whose scorched marble now graces the Bible Belt capital of Atlanta. But what really happened on that May 19? Was it really a planet-wide ``Zionist Betrayal``? Ferrigno`s story hinges on the dark secret at the heart of the state, which various parties have kept from the people all these years. Car chase-wise, it`s not dissimilar to Fatherland, Robert Harris`s what-if-Hitler-won-the-war novel, in which a 1960s Third Reich is determined to keep its own conspiracy hidden. And in the sense that both plots involve the Jews, plus ça change -- in life as in art.

The local colour is more compelling than either the plot or the characters: there`s a guy -- maverick ex-fedayeen -- and a girl -- plucky, and dangerous with a chopstick -- and a sinister old villain with the usual psycho subordinates. Standard fare, but in a curious way the routine American thriller elements lend the freaky landscape a verisimilitude it might not otherwise have had. Writing into the future, a novelist has to figure out what will have been invented in 35 years` time. Projecting from, say, 1890 to 1925 takes some skill: who`d foresee that telephones and automobiles would be everyday items and that nations would have things called ``air forces``? By comparison, from 1970 to 2005, the look of our world has barely altered: the changes are significant but visually marginal -- email and computers. Technologically, Ferrigno`s 2040 seems little different from today, but he has a persuasive explanation for it: nothing works unless it`s foreign-made. American inventiveness has shrivelled and the country`s already mired in the entrepreneurial arthritis that afflicts most of the Muslim world. As one character says:

``Marian and I used to discuss the fact that the nation is coasting on the intellectual capital amassed by the previous regime, and we`re running low on reserves. Islam dominated Western intellectual thought for three hundred years, a period when Muslims were most open to the contributions of other faiths. This is the caliphate that should be restored, not some military-political autocracy.``

In a Muslim America, there are not just fundamentalists but moderates and ``moderns,`` and, though the Islamic Republic is a land in decline, it`s not a totalitarian dystopia. Ferrigno is too artful to give us an ``Islamophobic`` rant. If you`re familiar with his earlier work, you`ll know he`s an efficient writer of lurid Californian crime novels full of porno stars, junkies and a decadent elite: in other words, everyday life in the Golden State. At one level, the Islamic future is a corrective to that present. ``You were too young to remember what the country was like before, but let me tell you, it was grim,`` a Catholic cop tells the young Muslim hero. ``Man against man, black against white, and God against all -- that was the joke, but I sure never got a laugh out of it. . . . Your people are big on the punishment part of crime and punishment, and they don`t take to blasphemy. I like that. The old government actually paid a man to drop a crucifix into a jar of piss and take a picture of it. Don`t give me that look, I`m serious. He got paid money to take the picture, and people lined up around the block to look at it. So I`m not exactly pining for the good old days. . .``

It`s not an unprecedented arc: Hitler followed Weimar -- or, for fans of Cabaret, prison camps followed transvestites in cutaway buttocks. There`s an extremely fine line between ``boldly transgressive`` and spiritually barren, and it`s foolish of secular Western elites to assume their own populations are immune to the strong-horse pitch. There`s a reason that Islam is the fastest-growing religion in Europe and North America, while, say, the Anglicans are joining Broadway up a chi-chi gay dead end. In Europe, it`s demography that`s ushering in the Islamification of a continent. In America, Ferrigno posits conversion:

``Jill Stanton`s proclamation of faith while accepting her second Academy Award would have been enough to interest tens of millions of Americans in the truth of Islam, but she had also chosen that moment in the international spotlight to announce her betrothal to Assan Rachman, power forward and MVP of the world champion Los Angeles Lakers. Celebrity conversions cascaded in the weeks after that Oscars night. . .``

Ayatollah Khomeini`s designation of ``the Great Satan`` at least acknowledges that America is a seducer -- which makes it considerably more sophisticated an insult than that of Canadians who sneer at the U.S. as the Great Moron. What gives Prayers for the Assassin an unsettling compelling power is the premise behind that fictional Oscar speech. As that cop says, ``Muslims were the only people with a clear plan and a helping hand.`` If it`s a choice between the defeatism and self-loathing of the Piss Christified West and a stern unyielding eternal Allah, maybe it`s Islam that will prove the great seducer.

Re: # 15
>>>>The fellows eat western food ..(namak) and bite the hand that feeds them...
typical shameless wretches & hypocrites that they are<<<<<<<<




http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2006 06 11 story_11-6-2006_pg3_6

Sunday, June 11, 2006

VIEW: Pakistan: foreign aid or band aid? — Ahmad Faruqui


......................In addition to World Bank aid, Pakistan is expected to receive some $600 million of US aid annually, split equally between economic and military applications. According to the US Congressional Research Service, Pakistan has received a total of $15 billion in US foreign aid since independence. Between 2002-05, it also received $3.6 billion in US aid for counter-terrorism operations, most probably as a grant requiring no repayment of principal or interest. Between 2001-07, Pakistan is estimated to receive $4.4 billion in US aid, of which 29 percent will be for financing military supplies..................

#14...(wrt #13)....
Arjun_m these guys are really addicted to the opiate called religion..
Like the japanese who learnt the hard way...about americans....These jehadists will too...
Japan at least ``stood on its legs`` ...(manufactured its own aircraft carriers / planes/ subs..all way back in 1940s.

These guys have only scowls , inflated egos and ideology as weapons!
Like zarqawi, these buggers will fry ``they wont know what hit them (and from where)``..to use mushy`s own words!

The fellows eat western food ..(namak) and bite the hand that feeds them...
typical shameless wretches & hypocrites that they are.

Jayen

#13 by echoboom on June 11, 2006 10:42am PT

aww..the mounties busted paki terrorists...poor paki`s feelings were hurt, were they?


Muslims are also told to ``take responsibility`` for their deviants, ``root out the extremists,`` ``weed out the radicals,`` etc.
How are they supposed to do that? By becoming vigilantes?


by ratting on the saudi preacher who preaches jihad..It`s like Sean Connery says in ``The untouchables``..everyone knows where the booze is..

muslims are to blame for sure..they know who the people buying/selling the jihad videos are..

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2006/06/08/amiruddin08062006.html

Teacher witnessed transformation of some bomb-plot suspects

Amiruddin says Khalid used to come to his mosque to pray, sometimes in the company of Zakaria Amara and Fahim Ahmad, two of the alleged ringleaders.

``They would enter into the mosque to pray, and they would pray in a very aggressive manner, and they would come in military fatigues and military touques and stuff. It looked to me that they were watching a lot of those Chechnyan jihad videos online and stuff.``

Amiruddin is a teacher of Sufism, a traditional brand of Islam that rejects the ideology of jihad. Amiruddin says the group was seduced by hardline propaganda financed by the Saudi government and promoting a strict, Wahhabi brand of Islam.

He says the Saudis have flooded Canada with free Qur`ans, laced with jihadist commentary.

``In the back of these Qur`ans that are being published in Saudi Arabia, you have basically essays on the need for offensive jihad and the legitimacy of offensive jihad and things like that. Very alarming stuff,`` he said.

Amiruddin said many mainstream Muslim organizations in Canada are really part of the problem, standing by as extremist propaganda spreads in the mosques.

He cites the Al-Rahman centre in Mississauga, Ont., which he links to the Al-Maghrib Institute, which runs a popular educational website. It`s nominally run out of Ottawa, but Amiruddin says it`s really a Saudi operation.

School Ties Link Alleged Plotters

Gradually, they gravitated to the Al-Rahman Islamic Center, a storefront mosque in a small strip mall in Mississauga. There they met Qayyam Abdul Jamal, 43, a taciturn Pakistani native with an angry view of the world. He cleaned the rugs and took out the trash at the mosque. For those services, the directors tolerated his vitriolic speeches that portrayed Muslims as oppressed by the West, according to people familiar with the mosque.

Haroon Siddiqui:
Editor for over 20 years of Canada`s oldest, largest, and most respected Newspaper.
Recipient of Order of Canada.

Received master`s in english from URDU-university Hyderabad; a Hafiz-i-Quraan, Madresaa educated ( entire family hafiz-i-Quraan--an ancestoral tradition); Starts speeches with Bismillah & Quraani Aayaats.

Did not study english in Canada. Speaks in thick original pristine Hyderabadi-Urdu accents.
Is admired by one & all for his knowledge, wisdom, and for retaining his language & culture.

---

Each & Every `` Great`` produced in Pakistan & Prepakistan was educated at a Madressa; even Jinnah ( Sindh Madresa-tul-Islam , Karachi & Anjumani-Islam Bombay). The totaa mainaa schools have only produced SERVANTS to operate corporations & bureacracies...where brains are secondary & ass-kissing paramount; for ``progress`` and ``advancement``

---

Muslim-bashing dilutes our democratic values
Fears spans bigotry, which endangers Canadian values, says Haroon Siddiqui
Jun. 11, 2006. 01:00 AM
HAROON SIDDIQUI



Bigotry increases in times of trouble, as we have seen in our own age.
An anti-French backlash was palpable in English Canada when bilingualism was introduced in 1969 and a year later we had the FLQ crisis. I felt it in the Prairies when the paper I worked for, The Brandon Sun, had the foresight and courage to support the Official Languages Act and oppose the War Measures Act.

The recession of the early 1990s stoked anger at multiculturalism and helped spawn the anti-immigrant Reform party.

The 1990 Oka crisis, the 1999 Mi`kmaq fisheries dispute in Nova Scotia and the Nisga`a land deal in British Columbia led to charges that ``race-based rights`` for First Nations would undermine common Canadian values.

On all those occasions, as also during the recent standoff in Caledonia, pessimists said racism lurks just below the surface and can bubble up any time. Congenital optimists like myself dismiss such episodes as aberrations, confident that the Canadian social equilibrium will always reassert itself.

The post-9/11 period, even while helping Canada become more Canadian, is slowly Americanizing our public discourse. It has fanned an anti-Islamism that resembles the old anti-Catholicism and anti-Semitism.

The arrest of 17 Muslims on terrorism charges has made matters worse, and also rekindled the debate on multiculturalism: Are we being too tolerant of different cultures? Do we instill enough ``Canadian values?`` Should we make newcomers sign a code of ethics?

Quebec once flirted with just such ``a social contract`` between immigrants and ``the host society.`` But it had to give up the hare-brained idea.

We already have a social contract. It is the rule of law. That is our common holy parchment, bonding the native-born and the foreign-born together. Anything else is populist humbug. Or an attempt by the powerful to dictate to the weak.

The latest hand-wringing on multiculturalism and its first cousin, immigration, in reality is a debate about Muslims.

When some people say we must rethink immigration, they are not talking about the problem of economic integration of newcomers. They are pointing fingers at Muslims: Do these bearded men and burqa-clad women — their infinitely small number magnified by the media — belong in Canada?

Yes, they do. Similar doubts were raised earlier about Catholics, Orthodox Jews and others.

Muslims are no less integrated than other comparable groups. In fact, evidence points to higher levels of education and lower rates of crime among them.

Yet there`s a drumbeat of Muslim-bashing, conflating the criminality of a few with all. This assertion of collective guilt takes many forms.

Any time some Muslims somewhere commit an atrocity, a chorus of voices demands of Muslims everywhere: ``What do you have to say about this?``

They should have to say nothing more than Christians or Jews or Hindus must for the wrongs of their co-religionists. As Lieutenant-Governor James Bartleman rightly said: ``We would not condemn the Italian community because of the Mafia. We would not condemn the Irish community because of the IRA.`` Or Serb Canadians for the ethnic cleansing in the former Yugoslavia in the name of religious nationalism.

Muslims are also told to ``take responsibility`` for their deviants, ``root out the extremists,`` ``weed out the radicals,`` etc.

How are they supposed to do that? By becoming vigilantes?

Which self-appointed busybodies will use what yardstick to define ``a radical,`` an ``extremist`` or ``a Wahhabi?``

George W. Bush`s first attorney-general, John Ashcroft, an openly Islamophobic Christian fundamentalist, proposed a program to ask Americans to snitch on fellow citizens. It was condemned as a totalitarian tool reminiscent of the old Communist states — and was dropped.

Yet, here we are, suggesting about the same thing in Canada.

That some Muslims also support it does not make it any more right. They may want their own version of ``liberal`` Islam to prevail. Some of us might want it, too. But it is no business of the state, or the media, to take sides in theological turf wars.

It is laudable that many Muslim leaders and groups are, voluntarily, offering to help in figuring out an early detection system to identify militant deviancy, especially among the young.

But it is the responsibility of the state to ferret out and prosecute criminals, whether they invoke religion or not.

Fear spawns bigotry. Whatever hurt it might be causing the beleaguered Muslim community, it poses a greater danger to the principles that make Canada what it is: the envy of the world.

---

Haroon Siddiqui, the Star`s editorial page editor emeritus, appears Thursday and Sunday. hsiddiq@thestar.ca.

``I did not know what to feel about the death of the most dreaded murderer and terrorist. I thought I should feel something``(author)

``the most dreaded murderer and terrorist``!

well sir -- that is a almost a compliment for a small time thug and hit man trained to slit throats by its once upon a time God father Uncle Sam in Murder Inc. Afghanisten --

.....for Iraq really the misplaced compliment should belong to its rightful owner -- the Haditha killer and the Fallujah demolisher -- George Bush...

for Zarqawi one can only say what Ghalib would say -- Jaan dee dee huwee usee ki thee -- Bundagee meiN meraa bhalaa nu hoowaa...

translation: the Lord (Uncle Sam) giveth and the Lord (Uncle Bush) taketh away -- that`s all...

Paki parliament and paki government sponsored terrorist group mourned the terrorist zarqawi..color me shocked!!

EDITORIAL: Our quest for a ‘soft image’ and our love for Al Zarqawi don’t square

President Pervez Musharraf on Friday directed the Ministry of Information and Broadcasting and other relevant departments to highlight the “soft image” of Pakistan in the country and abroad. As he spoke, the National Assembly was busy doing just the opposite. The Muttahida Majlis-e-Amal (MMA) demanded that the house offer fateha for the soul of Abu Musa’b Al Zarqawi. MMA legislators Maulana Ghafoor Haideri and Dr Farid Paracha wanted to call down blessings on Al Zarqawi. The speaker prevented the embarrassing situation from getting out of hand by quoting the rules, which say the house could offer fateha only on the demise of a present or former member of parliament or his relatives.

In Lahore, however, President Musharraf’s “favourite” jihadi outfit, Jamaat ud Dawa, offered a special namaz-e-janaza in absentia for the Shia-killer from Jordan and condemned the statement by the Foreign Office that the death of Al Zarqawi was an important milestone in the war against terrorism. The prayer was led by the Dawa leader Hafiz Saeed while the congregation cried their heart out for the dead man.

That Al Zarqawi killed Shiites in Iraq did not matter, which in itself is quite revealing. Those who mourned him forgot that he also killed some Pakistanis working in Iraq. This is the kind of internal extremism that hurts Pakistan and demonstrates how most of us are involved in sectarianism despite our assertions to the contrary. The Shia party inside the MMA should have protested the folly of Maulana Haideri and Dr Paracha in asking the National Assembly to bless the memory of the man. But it didn’t. And this is not all.

The High Court in Karachi recently acquitted two doctors of helping Al Zarqawi “because the police failed to make a good case against them”. Dr Akmal Waheed and Dr Arshad Waheed had kept Al Zarqawi in their house in Karachi and looked after him and then sent him to South Waziristan for his journey to Afghanistan. The two Karachi doctors were revealed as Jandullah members by the Jandullah leader, Ataullah. The doctors had admitted that they were members of Jandullah and that they had provided medical aid to Al Qaeda and sent men to be trained as Al Qaeda activists to Nek Muhammad in Wana through his brother. The doctors had also admitted that they had maintained their relationship with the Jamiat Talaba Islam till late.

It is our bad luck that, apart from President Musharraf, no one else in the PMLQ or opposition wants to “soften” Pakistan’s image. The opposition is advocating defiance in the face of “American imperialism” and, since the “soft image” routine is alleged to be linked somehow to the enterprise of sucking up to the United States, everyone wants a “hard image” instead. Of course, very little attention is paid to the national economy which desperately needs a “soft image” internationally to flourish. In many ways the national economy clashes with the objectives of the Pakistani national polity and its textbook nationalism. The emotion behind all nationalisms is isolationist and all nationalisms seek an external enemy to achieve internal cementation through the vision of a just war.

The economy wants peace at all cost; it abhors isolationism, and will not accept the condition of war. Also, where nationalism rejects self-analysis, the economy works only through self-analysis. The truth is that our “hard image” is not projected falsely by “Western media”. Our image is what we are, as proved by the Al Zarqawi incident above. No one is clear about what Pakistan should be — not even President Musharraf, who talks of a “soft image” but doesn’t show the will or ability to roll back the hard image and its manifestations. *

#3 by echoboom on June 11, 2006 2:04am PT



Should the Taleban have been allowed to remain in power over Afghanistan? “Well, it’s their country,” he replied.


You could say the same thing about Nazi Germany..

Micheal Berg is a fruitcake using his son`s death as a sword to attack critics and as a shield when he`s criticized..

The author gave non-judgemental piece of article.

Dear friends, those who feel courageous see the full video of a sample beheading of Zarqawi.

http://www.ogrish.com/archives/ken_bigley_video_kenneth_bigley_beheading_video_Oct_10_2004.html

Zarqawi is a beast, a criminal who was operating behind the excuse of religion. He was beheading Shias in the same way. He also beheaded many many people from Iraq, Turkey, Egypt as well (all are Sunni Arabs). To make it worse Zarqawi, the beast and his cronies cry Allah Ho Akber and flaunt the head of the dead victim. Anybody from Jamat Ud Dawah (Pakistan`s over-ground terrorists) who believes that Zarqawi is a good man should undergo the same process and feel.

All human beings believe in one thing, i.e anthropocentrism. Beheading is the cruellest form of killing. Any person who does this is not fit to be called a human beung. Infact Zarqawi he`s lucky that he died without knwoing that he`s dying.

For strange reasons of subcointinetal follies this beheading became silamic. Talibans are now doing this routinely.

This is like drug addiction. Even when intellectually you are aware that it is harmful to you,
you still can not stay away from it and find excuses for it.

Even when you are aware of the wrongs done, you can not admit to it because it is hard wired into you brain from childbirth that anything done in the name of Islam can not be wrong.

Come out and say `I am glad that S O B who brutally killed so may people on camera is dead and thankfully can not shed innocent blood any more`.

[I did not know what to feel about the death of the most dreaded murderer and terrorist.]

Perhaps you SHOULD have known - then there would be one less thing wrong with your thinking.

#all
Now ..now..
here is one more ``ordinary good and upright`` muslim tying himself up in knots..

For what?
To be able to say ...(without feeling guilty in his conscience) ...that killing zarqawi was somehow wrong!!

The guy is all ``mushy`` about it...
His ``intellect`` is NOT allowing him to ..so all this wordy stuff before coming to the conclusion his ``muslim heart`` wants..

``Oh you impious kafir guys``...
``Zarkawi has been killed...(sob)!!``
``But you see he may have painfully beheaded many...so what...``
``he was a human being too..``
(quote for emotional support michael berg who is obviously suffering from the severest for of stockholm syndrom and has gone into the peace mode permenanently)..
``So there too bad we have ended up killing a (muslim) human being..so what if he was a jehadi wretch?``...
sob & more sobs..bohooo etc

Wah bhai mante hain in islamiyaon ko!
Itne pakke ``islamic world view ke goggles hon to aur kya chahiye?``
No spin doctors needed...

And these are ``oh so ordinary upright`` good muslims!!

Hai na kamal ki baat?
Wonders never cease in this ``thru the looking glass`` world of Islam..
jayen

Re: # 4
Zia ul Haq=got what he deserved
Zalzala zadgan=victims of mother natures vagaries
Zarqawi=mass murderer, better late than never.....

Zia-ul-Haq=Shaheed
PAF Fokker Crash=Shaheed
Nishter Park 57=Shaheed
Zalzala Zadgan=Shaheed
Many more died accidently or killed by dacoits etc=Shaheed

BUT

Zarqawi=Hilaak

The media is free to define who is hilaak and who is Shaheed.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,11069-2215854,00.html


Sergeant Nazim Abdul Karriem, 87, a veteran of the Second World War, prays in the newly dedicated Islamic Prayer Center (MICHAEL TEMCHINE)

Marines open Islamic prayer centre

By Tom Baldwin

The military is hoping that prayers and education may help to restore some of its reputation

Excerpt:
He singled out Nazim Abdul Karriem, a former US servicemen who was seated in the front row and took part in the D-Day landings in Normandy 62 years ago. Mr England asked the 87-year-old veteran to stand and take a bow, but he might have been a little more circumspect if he had spoken to Mr Karriem first. Mr Karriem converted in 1956 and later became involved in Malcolm X’s Nation of Islam.

What did he think about the Iraq war? “I see it as a war against Islam. We have had this before with the Crusades. We have occupied land which does not belong to us,” Mr Kariem told The Times. Should the Taleban have been allowed to remain in power over Afghanistan? “Well, it’s their country,” he replied.

Dear Tahir,

Here`s another paradox: A much stronger nation bombs your family and relatives then tells you they are there for your benefit, how do we resolve this conflict?

> Each word of the father’s response, whose son was beheaded, made me honor the
> goodness of human spirit. ...
You are right. This is the human spirit. Alternately called the non-muslim spirit.

> Zarqawi also resorted to violence but still he was a human who got killed....
Wrong. He was a h0m0 Islamus. You should be knowing that this is a different species then
the h0m0 sapiens.