Selling Spirituality

#140 is in response to #139 by tahmed32.

i have read this before from hindu posters on chowk who harbor a surprising amount of resentment to christian missionaries. what kind of priorities are these where human welfare is subordinate to religious ideology? for myself, i welcome the work christian missionaries have done in Pakistan, just as i welcome the work our own pakistanis like edhi have done. they have met a need where government babus have failed and where religious priests (mullahs in pakistan) have failed.

Hindus wouldn`t resent Christian missionaries as much if there were a punishment similar to the one you have for apostasy i.e, death. You can pontificate all you want but there is no similarity between the situation in India and the one in Pakistan. Ask a Christian missionary to try proselytizing in front of a mosque in Pakistan and witness the reaction. In India, missionaries have tried converting Hindus even at Tirupati, one of the holiest shrines in South India without fearing any retribution. And when you welcome the work missionaries have done in Pakistan, you speak for ONLY yourself, not all Pakis. When you have a law in Pakistan that allows conversions, only then can you talk about any equivalence. Till then you just come across as a pompous f@rt.

swarrier #133 I must say i dont see any compelling case in your post to change my views on mother teresa. You leave the specific questions I had unanswered, and you chose instead to simply some weak arguments to condemn her.

I havent been to Calcutta (except a few hours stopover at the airport once) and so cannot comment on the extent to which mother teresa helped the poor. I do know (as is easily googled) that she made a name for herself the old-fashioned way: by ``toiling upward through the night`` in the service of the poor and the sick. I also know that she left a comfortable life in europe behind to do this. How is this helping ``exploitation``? i have read this before from hindu posters on chowk who harbor a surprising amount of resentment to christian missionaries. what kind of priorities are these where human welfare is subordinate to religious ideology? for myself, i welcome the work christian missionaries have done in Pakistan, just as i welcome the work our own pakistanis like edhi have done. they have met a need where government babus have failed and where religious priests (mullahs in pakistan) have failed.

Thus, to repeat my question - why do you give such low weight to the work she did? do you deny that thousands (tens of thousands?) of people in calcutta benefitted from her efforts?

I am also puzzled at your resentment at the fact that her funds were not kept in India!! Why do you think she owed India this special favor? Why should she have restricted her vision to India, rather than to the world`s poor regardless of nationality?

Regarding reformation of the christian church - there is plenty of reformation needed everywhere in the world. Do you think hinduism (or islam) is less in need of reformation than roman catholicism? and you resent the fact that she did not condemn church inquisition? any fool can condemn any number of things (and fools on chowk do it all the time). she focussed instead on one specific area where she improved things in this world - namely, the misery of the poor in india. As they say, it is better to light one candle than to curse the darkness.

Anyway, I must admit that I am puzzled at this resentment you have for mother teresa. Perhaps you should do some soul-searching here. Would you still have this resentment if she was a hindu man who did exactly what she did? I dont know. What I do know is that there is no shortage of troublemakers and of those who curse the darkness in this world. Nor is there any shortage of those who exploit poor people by putting the ``fear of God`` (or spirits or whatever) in them. There is a great shortage of those who do something for those who are about it.

Well if you do not consider MKG to be the Father of the Nation, why should you bother if someone passes a few nasty comments about him. In any case I dislike MKG because of his impractical or downright obnoxious views on the caste system, birth control, women`s position in society etc. His personal life is his personal business. But chowkies are well-known to take potshots on the personal lives of all and sundry including fellow chowkies.

Regards

#136 by majumdar


[I can give you a source - whether it is credible or not is for you to judge. Freedom at Midnight. ]

My understanding is that it does NOT say anything about Gandhi actually sleeping naked with anybody.

Would you care to quote the lines in question?


[You are a thinking man and a patriotic Hindu/Indian so I am surprised you persist in calling MKG the father of the nation. ]

Wrong again. I said the following:

[You are making an accusation about a man who is revered as the father of the Indian nation.]

I did not say that I consider him to be the father of the nation.



In any case, I`ll wait for your response.

Krishnaji,

(You are making an accusation about a man who is revered as the father of the Indian nation. I think the responsible thing would be to provide credible sources to back up your claims. )

I can give you a source- whether it is credible or not is for you to judge. Freedom at Midnight.

You are a thinking man and a patriotic Hindu/Indian so I am surprised you persist in calling MKG the father of the nation.

Regards

#134 by swarrier

[Re: # 133
I would like to have FV`s opinion of MT. She must know of some of the things I`m talking about.]

Glad you asked – holy warrior!
Here you go!

My Magical Mother

Over a million people were gaping open-mouthed as Mother Teresa was beatified for having appeared in a paddy field, what if it is only as a vision – and why a paddy field? This beautification makes absolutely no sense – first of all, whose ideals of beauty does Mother Teresa meet – just look at that short frame, the wrinkles, the white sari – you got to be kidding me, you call that beauty?! If she had been a bit like Noor Jahan then you would have got something – and if she could somehow be made to look femininely delicate like Jinnah, why then you REALLY got something! Did going to a paddy field qualify her as a person on her way to sainthood? Hah! Of course, that is not the main reason. They made up that story about that village woman, Monica Besra – village being any place about ten miles outside of Bombay proper – who was suffering from a cyst in the stomach and got miraculously cured because she held a medallion that had been blessed by the Mother. She is convinced – but I am not! “I tried many doctors, lots of medicines but nobody could really heal me. On the death anniversary of Mother Teresa, I prayed to her and I could see Mother herself.” Well, so why did it work on her cyst and not on mine?!! Was mine bigger than hers?

Faith can move mountains – but I do have such a difficult time moving things (and we are not talking loo here. If anybody mentions that word one more time, I am going to get sick and go running to – wait, don’t tell me!) I wonder why this simple villager prayed to the Mother and even remembered her death anniversary – and I wonder because, let’s face it that is all I ever do! I find it too pat. And the fact that she has converted to Christianity after the miracle and her family is being looked after makes one raise these questions – because I like questions which can not be answered – it makes those others feel so stupid! Soon enough there will be another miracle and Mother T will be a right royal saint. Sister Nirmala, Mother’s successor at the Missionaries of Charity, says rather cockily (I know cocky, trust me!), “It has been investigated scientifically and it has been proven it’s a miracle.” Since when has science started proving miracles? That is strictly my specialty!

Anne Sebba, associate producer of ‘Mother Teresa: The Making of a Modern Saint’ has written, “There is an especially strong paradox in Mother Teresa’s case, since she did not devote her efforts to effecting miracle cures. Doctors and nurses, even those who wished to join her order, had no particular role to play there. She said many times that she was, quite simply, demonstrating Christ’s love in action by helping people die a beautiful death, not by helping them live an extra few years.”

This brings us again to the question of moral certainty. Tariq Ali in ‘Hell’s Angel’ had rubbished Mother for taking money from despots. She forgave them and that was it? Look at the other embodiment of Christian charity, Gladys Staines, whose husband Graham and their two children were burnt alive in Orissa. The killer, Dara Singh, has recently been awarded the death sentence, but the lady has forgiven him. And this is not now; she has been saying it from the beginning. I think this is a mockery of the Indian judiciary, though it has not had any impact on the legal process. She said recently, “Forgiveness and the consequences of crime should not be mixed up. God and Christ had forgiven and expect his followers to do the same. (The Holy Bible says that.) Whomsoever you forgive, their sins will be forgiven. Therefore, in the light of eternity, we need forgiveness for our sins to enter heaven.” How dare they?! It is exclusively in my domain to forgive those criminals!

That Dara Singh, who committed a crime against Christianity, will ostensibly be transported to a Christian heaven, and the law will look like an ass for not being Christian enough. Just the way Mother T made everyone feel – guilty. Especially me! She did who knows what with all those lepers and all I can come up with were my unescorted trips through the red light areas! A bit unfair, if you ask me! Not that I need you to ask me to tell you!

I too went through this phase when not being a leper, or dying, (or a visitor to red-light areas, or the Princess of Wales) filled me with pangs of conscience. Till I read an interview of Germaine Greer where the feminist writer showed us a few perceived warts on the saintly visage. And boy I love warts! The thrust of the interview was on Mother’s religious imperialism. If she were not so holy, Greer contended, then her worldwide expansions would be considered an ego trip. “On ‘His’ behalf she totally lacks humbleness. All care for the dying, all salvation of prostitutes, etc, happens for ‘Him’. On top of this Mother Teresa is ‘His’ special friend who knows what ‘He’ wants. This megalomaniac attitude makes me furious.” Why could not she have been a bra-burning feminist going around with a pair of garden scissors on the ready and woe be unto any man who, or parts of whom, get in the way! One quick snip, and lost forever are those tools of iniquity! Die, creep, die!

I was never filled with such rage – merely envy, but I did believe that Mother was not exactly what the doctor, or hakeem, or my Mullah, or contemporary living ordered. And certainly as a woman I find this sainthood business designed to keep women in their places – the place of being a woman and of not being a man!

While a lot of people will say that she had men falling at her feet, and quote this as proof enough of women’s empowerment, I beg to differ. This was no empowerment because what is empowerment without domination?! They were seeking a higher cause like god and she was the medium. Every woman outside this fold revealed her own sexuality. Mother ‘desexualised’ them and for those few minutes they felt ‘connected’. I find this dangerous – this whole desexualization business. The male, having experienced Mother’s unobtrusiveness in helping him get there, would expect the living woman in his life to be as understanding, and as dis-sexual instead of dish-sexual – aren’t all males just looking for their mothers in the female? That is the main reason men all over the patriarchal world had no objection for her to be canonized – I personally think she should be just blown off with a cannon!

Mother’s attitude towards ‘lesser women’ buffers the male stereotype. As Greer wrote, “They (Mother’s nuns) don’t see prostitutes as poor women who are enjoying free enterprise in the world’s most ancient profession, but as sinners. The punishment for these women is to teach them embroidery.”

I shall not touch upon the free enterprise bit – because that will weaken my point considerably, but there is nothing more demeaning than taking a woman out of the gutter and putting her in an airless room – how will she get any oxygen? This has been the Mother Teresa version of morality. Don’t abort. The idea is not that life is precious – so what if she actually said so, that is not the idea because it will also mess up what I am planning to say next – that every orphan is stimulus for guilt, just like everything that has anything to do with man is. Why, even a rape victim can only be permitted to use a douche bag to clean out the semen from the vagina – I could suggest a few alternatives but you won’t be able to stomach them. I don’t know how many such women will rush to wash themselves. If they lack such presence of mind – which they most certainly do because they are not me, then they are either burdened with the ‘sin’ of abortion or of being unwed mothers or the cause of the burgeoning orphan population. Any which way they lose. Only saints go marching in – but I am going to break their legs!

Re: # 133

I would like to have FV`s opinion of MT. She must know of some of the things I`m talking about.

Re: # 126
Tahmed
Granted your first paragraph is right. We cannot make judgements on people who go to nunneries or convents.

But....
If the sole reason you do good deeds is because your faith tells you do do so, and you feel you will get something from your faith, then I think that is selfish. It comes from within not using religion as a crutch.

I do not believe MT did anything for the poor. If she did then the poor would not be dying in a decrepit building in Calcutta without medical care.

The donations she got would be audited like any other normal orphanage. It is this baggage that I protest about.

You will never hear of Baba Amte because he is not a stoolie of the Roman Catholic church which has in my opinion perpetrated as many crimes against humanity as any other. And this from a religion that said turn the other cheek. At least he got the Ramon Magasasay award and we know where the money has gone. It is audited.

Where is the money that the Missonaries of Charity received. It is not in India. It is supposed to be in a bank in New York. According to magazines the order receives more than a 100 million dollars a year. Where does all that go?

Tell me Tahmed what has MT and the Missionaries of charity done other than make beggars of its inmates and nuns. Tell me what have they created.

This woman was against any reformation of the Catholic Church. And a lot of this is documented. She was against medical help for the ill because she believed that God would choose who was to live and who was to die.

She got canonised because that previous Pope wanted to offer instant sainthood to all and make himself famous. Plus it is alleged in the UK that 7% of the money she got went to charity the rest found its way into the Vatican Bank. Now how much can I pay to buy a sainthood.

This lot of leeches could not open a rudimentary hospital or even a school with the money they cajoled out of people. Nothing, except homes to get a few orphans in who could be trained to beg, a few soup kitchens to feed some folks gruel and to house lepers till they died.

There is a book by Christopher Hitchens , Mother Teresa: Theory and Practice. I have not read this, my questions about MT are from articles I read by independent journalists in India. But it is supposed to be quite damning. Of course you can choose to believe Hitchens or defend MT as the Roman Catholics have done.

But there are many questions about MT. And I see no reason to accept any version put forward by a church that refused to condemn the atrocities committed by the Inquisition in Goa and other places.

Swarrier:
It was removed today by the site. Too bad. Next time or get it from musicIndiaonline or any other.( I wonder though)

movie: Karwani-i-Hayat by K.L.Saigal

Found it: REally good site..just discovered it!



http://hindisongs.vijayawadasite.com/

Re: # 124

Echoboom, the link does not work. Any other way I can get it. I have to listen to this at home and I found I cannot get to it.

“God told me to do so.”
“I had a sacred dream.”
“I had a special revelation.”

These claims cannot be tested by the disciples from any objective perspective. Pseudo-mystics promote blind faith rather than rational thinking.

---

Dr. Sahib is it fair to only target the poor dabba peers?? the jantar mantar that is called the WAZEEFA is something similar to the jantar mantar of the peers. why not write something about the impact of islam on juvenile brains, echoboom can serve as the ideal guinea pig (little soor).

but then u shouldnt dr sahib, the boom in his nick should give a clue to his future ambitions.

128:
None whatsoever. It was an inadvertant keyboard error.

Re: # 127
Dear echoboom...would you be kind enough to share what is the connection of your letter

to the discussion we are having. I am at a loss. thanks...sincerely sohail

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swarrier #125 I have nothing for or against nunneries and convents. Perhaps they provide a safe haven for some women who would otherwise be oppressed. Perhaps they provide a cop out for other women who are fooled into thinking that this is their ``calling``. Who knows. I dont think either you or I or anyone else is in a position to pass judgement unless we assume ourselves to be so smart as to be able to tell someone we have never met what life-decisions she should make in her situation.

What I do know is that nunneries and convents dont produce terrorists. That is the job of bearded politicans who open madrassahs. So, what is the problem you are having here?

And again - mother teresa`s claim to fame is not opening nunneries but in dedicating her life to the weak and the poor. You dont deny this, but you dont give this any weight either.

Why is that so? Is religious ideology more important than the welfare of the weak and the poor?

As for baba amte - fine. I never heard of him before, but if you tell me he dedicated himself to caring for the lepers then he has my respect. But that still does not explain your opposition to mother teresa even though you dont deny her claim to fame which is for doing the same thing. What is the reason for this?