Selling Spirituality
Khalid Sohail July 6, 2006
#125 Posted by swarrier on July 10, 2006 11:25:23 am
Tahmed
As I mentioned the Missionaries of Charity were never audited in India. The money is not kept in India because the Indian government requests disclosure of all money kept for missionary purposes. Nobody knows where the fairly large donations went. I remember reading articles in magazines in India which basically said that the medical care etc in the builiding in Calcutta was the most basic and wretched that could be.
She has opened nunneries and convents in 120 countries. Why do that when she could set up hospitals with the money. Do we need nunneries and convents?
Remember absence of personal posessions does not make you a saintly person. You can be Ebenezer Scrooge and live in the most spartan circumstances and hoard money.
MT boasted that she gave the inmates of her home a Catholic death. Let me ask you if you were dying would you care. And to convert you then wouldn`t it be taking advantage.
Tahmed there are people like Baba Amte who have done a lot for lepers including setting up small scale cottage industries, an ashram etc, when he could have continued to be a wealthy landowner . A friend of mine left IIT to become an administrator in their ashram nd set up stuff for them. Baba Amte will never be a saint thank goodness because he doesn`t believe in that sort of rubbish. But he has given people a life with dignity and self reliance.
Unless somebody can prove me wrong the Missionaries of Charity and MT never gave anybody life with dignity. Death yes with the most primitive medical treatment.
Service to God is nothing, any fool can spend hours in the church, temple or mosque. Service to the poor is much better. Teaching them to make a living is even better than that.
By the way to alleviate all of Ali`s fears Baba Amte is called Baba because that`s what his parents called him as a kid. His actual name is Murlidhar.
As I mentioned the Missionaries of Charity were never audited in India. The money is not kept in India because the Indian government requests disclosure of all money kept for missionary purposes. Nobody knows where the fairly large donations went. I remember reading articles in magazines in India which basically said that the medical care etc in the builiding in Calcutta was the most basic and wretched that could be.
She has opened nunneries and convents in 120 countries. Why do that when she could set up hospitals with the money. Do we need nunneries and convents?
Remember absence of personal posessions does not make you a saintly person. You can be Ebenezer Scrooge and live in the most spartan circumstances and hoard money.
MT boasted that she gave the inmates of her home a Catholic death. Let me ask you if you were dying would you care. And to convert you then wouldn`t it be taking advantage.
Tahmed there are people like Baba Amte who have done a lot for lepers including setting up small scale cottage industries, an ashram etc, when he could have continued to be a wealthy landowner . A friend of mine left IIT to become an administrator in their ashram nd set up stuff for them. Baba Amte will never be a saint thank goodness because he doesn`t believe in that sort of rubbish. But he has given people a life with dignity and self reliance.
Unless somebody can prove me wrong the Missionaries of Charity and MT never gave anybody life with dignity. Death yes with the most primitive medical treatment.
Service to God is nothing, any fool can spend hours in the church, temple or mosque. Service to the poor is much better. Teaching them to make a living is even better than that.
By the way to alleviate all of Ali`s fears Baba Amte is called Baba because that`s what his parents called him as a kid. His actual name is Murlidhar.
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#124 Posted by echoboom on July 10, 2006 11:19:23 am
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#123 Posted by MantoLives on July 10, 2006 11:07:56 am
masanamuthu,
Either the people mentioned are living in Pakistan or they are living in my dreams... I`d choose the former.
You forget that Raw apna bacha hai. He is a product of the wholesome Pakistani education. Having visited his alma mater and others, I know for a fact that he is not alone in his atheistic, anti- (dogmatic) Islamic views ... they are all over. I for one don`t care... I take this diversity of opinion as one of the strengths of our society which will overcome the revivalist fringe...
The point was whether all secular humanists and atheists in Pakistan have been driven away ... and this is clearly not true given the number of leftists, atheists, ``dahrias`` and others of that the train of thought proliferating... I can safely say that today Pakistan`s middle and lower classes have undergone a revolution ... while their Muslim identity persists, Mullahs are beginning to lose grip... a new, hedonistic and bohemian culture, not restricted to the elite as in the past, is now all over... it is an unstoppable wave... the mullah knows he can`t turn back the clock ay more...
I am, ofcourse, only a neutral observer in this... not fitting any of the labels on either side, atleast any more.
-YLH
Either the people mentioned are living in Pakistan or they are living in my dreams... I`d choose the former.
You forget that Raw apna bacha hai. He is a product of the wholesome Pakistani education. Having visited his alma mater and others, I know for a fact that he is not alone in his atheistic, anti- (dogmatic) Islamic views ... they are all over. I for one don`t care... I take this diversity of opinion as one of the strengths of our society which will overcome the revivalist fringe...
The point was whether all secular humanists and atheists in Pakistan have been driven away ... and this is clearly not true given the number of leftists, atheists, ``dahrias`` and others of that the train of thought proliferating... I can safely say that today Pakistan`s middle and lower classes have undergone a revolution ... while their Muslim identity persists, Mullahs are beginning to lose grip... a new, hedonistic and bohemian culture, not restricted to the elite as in the past, is now all over... it is an unstoppable wave... the mullah knows he can`t turn back the clock ay more...
I am, ofcourse, only a neutral observer in this... not fitting any of the labels on either side, atleast any more.
-YLH
#122 Posted by tahmed32 on July 10, 2006 10:51:36 am
swarrier #119 what you say is probably all true (since i dont think you make up stuff like some other people on chowk). but nevertheless, this is a woman who alleviated more suffering among the downtrodden people in Calcutta than anyone else I can think of. Nor do I think did she lead a life of luxury or leave any significant personal assets behind (as your references to alms giving to her charity would imply).
Do you deny that to be the case?
as for conversions, I appreciate your honesty about saying where you stand on this issue even though I dont agree with it. I dont agree with it is because conversion doesnt cost an individual anything and (as you yourself indicate) may get them some material reward in return. So what is so wrong with that? Unless you think God (or Ishwar or Whatever) really gives a damn what religion you belong to.
What do you say to that, my friend?
Do you deny that to be the case?
as for conversions, I appreciate your honesty about saying where you stand on this issue even though I dont agree with it. I dont agree with it is because conversion doesnt cost an individual anything and (as you yourself indicate) may get them some material reward in return. So what is so wrong with that? Unless you think God (or Ishwar or Whatever) really gives a damn what religion you belong to.
What do you say to that, my friend?
#121 Posted by masanamuthu on July 10, 2006 10:31:21 am
Re: # 120
pakistan is such a secular-humanist(watever that means) friendly country! where does it exist exactly?..
Don`t you know already?.. In Mantolives` dreams.. :-)
pakistan is such a secular-humanist(watever that means) friendly country! where does it exist exactly?..
Don`t you know already?.. In Mantolives` dreams.. :-)
#120 Posted by Raw_Dust on July 10, 2006 10:23:56 am
pakistan is such a secular-humanist(watever that means) friendly country! where does it exist exactly? Under Jinnah`s tomb on purani numaish facing the center offices of some organization for finality of prophet Mohammad? majlis-e-tahffuz-e-blah-blah
#119 Posted by swarrier on July 10, 2006 10:12:47 am
Re: # 118
Tahmed, I am dead serious about Mother Teresa. No funnies here. She sold spirituality. She took donations from people like Papa Doc Duvalier a vicious man and praised him . Where have the donations that she got from people like Charles Keating gone? The Missionaries of Charity in India is supposed to be housed in a run down derelict building.
She was against divorce till her good friend Diana got to have problems. She said that abortion was the greatest destroyer of peace and this during the Nobel Peace prize ceremony.
She did not favour empowerment or emancipation of women. She wanted them to be reproductive factories. She said suffering was a gift from God.
The accounts of the Missionaries of Charity were never audited. Why did she go to California clinics when she got sick? Couldn`t she have died with dignity? She was one person who did not want any change in the Catholic church`s position on their doctine. She called for more faith.
You can make as much fun of upper caste Hindus like me if you want, but I have read journalists who went to Calcutta and came back disturbed.
And you are right, I am dead set against conversions, either violently or insidiously. I have no problem if people choose to convert of their own free will. It`s their issue. But I do draw line at converting people when they are about to die, to earn brownie points with some stupid belief. Or do you remember the Catholic church selling indulgences to the rich so that they could sin as much as they wanted while the poor were urged to be happy with their lot. It`s dishonest.
There is muck in every religion. We are born into some muck, not of our choosing , and we try to tell ourselves it`s not all bad.
Back to frivolity.
And then you blame Zidane. The greatest man in the world. You saw him, the way he is. No subterfuges no lies, no media spins. He`s worth a million Mother Teresas. So there.
Tahmed, I am dead serious about Mother Teresa. No funnies here. She sold spirituality. She took donations from people like Papa Doc Duvalier a vicious man and praised him . Where have the donations that she got from people like Charles Keating gone? The Missionaries of Charity in India is supposed to be housed in a run down derelict building.
She was against divorce till her good friend Diana got to have problems. She said that abortion was the greatest destroyer of peace and this during the Nobel Peace prize ceremony.
She did not favour empowerment or emancipation of women. She wanted them to be reproductive factories. She said suffering was a gift from God.
The accounts of the Missionaries of Charity were never audited. Why did she go to California clinics when she got sick? Couldn`t she have died with dignity? She was one person who did not want any change in the Catholic church`s position on their doctine. She called for more faith.
You can make as much fun of upper caste Hindus like me if you want, but I have read journalists who went to Calcutta and came back disturbed.
And you are right, I am dead set against conversions, either violently or insidiously. I have no problem if people choose to convert of their own free will. It`s their issue. But I do draw line at converting people when they are about to die, to earn brownie points with some stupid belief. Or do you remember the Catholic church selling indulgences to the rich so that they could sin as much as they wanted while the poor were urged to be happy with their lot. It`s dishonest.
There is muck in every religion. We are born into some muck, not of our choosing , and we try to tell ourselves it`s not all bad.
Back to frivolity.
And then you blame Zidane. The greatest man in the world. You saw him, the way he is. No subterfuges no lies, no media spins. He`s worth a million Mother Teresas. So there.
#118 Posted by tahmed32 on July 10, 2006 9:25:10 am
#113 i also understand mother teresa was an evil christian who was trying to convince sudras that they were as good as brahmins!! horrors!!
:-)
:-)
#117 Posted by tahmed32 on July 10, 2006 9:23:14 am
#114 your patience is running low, eh? so what will you do about it? hold your breath until you wet your lungi??
#116 Posted by tahmed32 on July 10, 2006 9:22:23 am
krishna: i see that you are the certification authority that declares someone to be a muslim or a nonmuslim. no nut like a hindu nut. ha! ha!
#115 Posted by krishna_abcd on July 10, 2006 9:15:59 am
Re: #98 by Mantolives
Although you are a certified non-muslim, I can see why you are so popular with the puki (pun intended) crowd.
Although you are a certified non-muslim, I can see why you are so popular with the puki (pun intended) crowd.
#114 Posted by krishna_abcd on July 10, 2006 9:11:07 am
majumdar,
I asked you a question. I think you should answer it. You are making an accusation about a man who is revered as the father of the Indian nation. I think the responsible thing would be to provide credible sources to back up your claims. You made a similar statement some time ago, calling the INA soldiers ``thugs``. And then you said you may have overstepped.
I will be polite to you only for so long. I hope that you will not test my patience.
I asked you a question. I think you should answer it. You are making an accusation about a man who is revered as the father of the Indian nation. I think the responsible thing would be to provide credible sources to back up your claims. You made a similar statement some time ago, calling the INA soldiers ``thugs``. And then you said you may have overstepped.
I will be polite to you only for so long. I hope that you will not test my patience.
#113 Posted by swarrier on July 10, 2006 8:59:55 am
Re: # 110
I`m not so sure about Mother Teresa. There are other people who have done as much for the poor without any spiritual claptrap. The Missionaries of Charity with their finances would be better off building hospitals to cure the sick rather than allow the poor to die with dignity.
I`m not so sure about Mother Teresa. There are other people who have done as much for the poor without any spiritual claptrap. The Missionaries of Charity with their finances would be better off building hospitals to cure the sick rather than allow the poor to die with dignity.
#112 Posted by echoboom on July 10, 2006 8:44:30 am
For the Westoxicated scum in the slavelands where goraa left but left his droppings
....``buy we excell in sniffing the goraa-ass in english ...`` yelp , in american accents, the canines from the cantonement & colonies
Discovering the dormant spirituality: the Poll-Police helps
The veil is not the issue
According to a recent poll, Muslim women care more about voting and their countries’ problems such as violent extremism, corruption and lack of unity among the countries. It is unfortunate that women did not use the survey as a way to express their “own” problems and needs. If they don’t speak up, nobody will do it for them.
It might be surprising to hear that the veil, or even the burqua, is not the main problem facing Muslim women. None of the women surveyed mentioned this issue.
Maybe people should stop stereotyping veiled women and focus on more important problems. A good example is a recent Jordanian survey showing that women find it acceptable to be beaten by their husbands!
What is really alarming is that more women, married and unmarried, found beating acceptable compared to their male counterparts.
Women are not challenging the status quo. In fact, they might be ingraining it even more. Are they afraid or are they oblivious?
— Gihane Askar, Internet Division, The Washington Times
The problem with Western civilization is they tend to judge everyone by their standard and do not fully comprehend the power of religious belief. In Middle East like you rightly observed, the veil or wife-beating is part of the socio-cultural-religious system. It should not surprise you that Middle East culture is completely at 180 degrees from the West. The West needs more studies like this to fully understand non-Western culture.
Andy Woodward Says:
After 11 eleven years in 3 countries the Mideast I agree the veil is not the issue. There’s no great pressure from women to get rid of it and few are forced to wear it. There’s much more concern about not having access to decent jobs, to being hassled on the street and over the phone by young men, to domestic violence and forced (not arranged) marriages. There’s an awful lot that women worry about in Arab society and the veil is the least of it.
Our belief has the power of Truth to liberate both men and women subject to the erroneous and oppressive morality of a contrary religious conviction.
If we are going to “dialogue” with Islam, we should not tie our religious selves behind our backs. For if we proceed on solely a modern subjective or enlightenment morality, we will fail because they are incapable of pronouncing any reason for its own superiority.
Apparently, nobody in this forum is actually reading these “surveys”.
In nearly all cases, the majority of Jordanian men and women DO NOT believe that striking a woman is justified for any reason other than adultery. It is true that, compared to Americans, Middle East cultures are far less tolerant of adultery.
It would also be helpful if someone noted that domestic violence is also one of the major challenges facing the American society. Estimates of the percentage of American women who have been the victim of domestic violence range as high as 33%.
At best, we can only say that Americans might be slightly more respectful of women. But even that is only true if we ignore pornography, a practice that is virtually nonexistent in Muslim cultures.
All replies are screened by The Washington Times prior to posting. All fields are required. The views expressed are your own and unless specifically stated are not those of The Washington Times. The Washington Times is not responsible for the content of any external sites or comments referenced. If you think the content violates the Terms of Use then please alert the The Washington Times. The Washington Times reserves the right to edit posts as required. Submitting a comment does not imply that it will be posted. Please see the posting guidelines.
....``buy we excell in sniffing the goraa-ass in english ...`` yelp , in american accents, the canines from the cantonement & colonies
Discovering the dormant spirituality: the Poll-Police helps
The Washington Times
Wednesday, June 28, 2006
The veil is not the issue
According to a recent poll, Muslim women care more about voting and their countries’ problems such as violent extremism, corruption and lack of unity among the countries. It is unfortunate that women did not use the survey as a way to express their “own” problems and needs. If they don’t speak up, nobody will do it for them.
It might be surprising to hear that the veil, or even the burqua, is not the main problem facing Muslim women. None of the women surveyed mentioned this issue.
Maybe people should stop stereotyping veiled women and focus on more important problems. A good example is a recent Jordanian survey showing that women find it acceptable to be beaten by their husbands!
What is really alarming is that more women, married and unmarried, found beating acceptable compared to their male counterparts.
Women are not challenging the status quo. In fact, they might be ingraining it even more. Are they afraid or are they oblivious?
— Gihane Askar, Internet Division, The Washington Times
11 Responses to “The veil is not the issue”
The problem with Western civilization is they tend to judge everyone by their standard and do not fully comprehend the power of religious belief. In Middle East like you rightly observed, the veil or wife-beating is part of the socio-cultural-religious system. It should not surprise you that Middle East culture is completely at 180 degrees from the West. The West needs more studies like this to fully understand non-Western culture.
posted at 1:15 AM
Andy Woodward Says:
After 11 eleven years in 3 countries the Mideast I agree the veil is not the issue. There’s no great pressure from women to get rid of it and few are forced to wear it. There’s much more concern about not having access to decent jobs, to being hassled on the street and over the phone by young men, to domestic violence and forced (not arranged) marriages. There’s an awful lot that women worry about in Arab society and the veil is the least of it.
Our belief has the power of Truth to liberate both men and women subject to the erroneous and oppressive morality of a contrary religious conviction.
If we are going to “dialogue” with Islam, we should not tie our religious selves behind our backs. For if we proceed on solely a modern subjective or enlightenment morality, we will fail because they are incapable of pronouncing any reason for its own superiority.
posted at 2:32 PM
Apparently, nobody in this forum is actually reading these “surveys”.
In nearly all cases, the majority of Jordanian men and women DO NOT believe that striking a woman is justified for any reason other than adultery. It is true that, compared to Americans, Middle East cultures are far less tolerant of adultery.
It would also be helpful if someone noted that domestic violence is also one of the major challenges facing the American society. Estimates of the percentage of American women who have been the victim of domestic violence range as high as 33%.
At best, we can only say that Americans might be slightly more respectful of women. But even that is only true if we ignore pornography, a practice that is virtually nonexistent in Muslim cultures.
All replies are screened by The Washington Times prior to posting. All fields are required. The views expressed are your own and unless specifically stated are not those of The Washington Times. The Washington Times is not responsible for the content of any external sites or comments referenced. If you think the content violates the Terms of Use then please alert the The Washington Times. The Washington Times reserves the right to edit posts as required. Submitting a comment does not imply that it will be posted. Please see the posting guidelines.
#111 Posted by Urstruly on July 10, 2006 8:20:17 am
Unfortunately, I still haven`t been able to figure out what spirituality is and more than that what is the big deal about it.
#110 Posted by Lchaim on July 10, 2006 7:14:00 am
I hope all can agree that altho rare, everynow and then a 100% for real spiritual guru/giant comes along - so when they do, let`s try to learn and improve ourselves from one like this!
Mother Teresa -- Spiritual Genius
When we speak of a person who is deeply spiritual -- a person whose consciousness reaches past the boundaries of ordinary life -- in short, when we speak of a spiritual genius -- what do we really mean by that?
To explore this question, I will be looking here at Gonxhe Agnes Bojaxhiu, much better known as Mother Teresa, whose work with the poor in Calcutta made her a world-renowned icon of charity and pastoral love.
Mother Teresa has been celebrated and elevated to a status beyond that of flesh and blood human beings. This reverence was profound during her lifetime, especially after she was awarded the Nobel Prize for Peace. This veneration has become more complete since her death, with the proposal for canonization as a saint by the Catholic Church, although she has been known as a saint throughout the world for many years.
A childhood friend of the future Mother Teresa recalls her saying in 1928, ``I have decided to dedicate myself completely to God and to devote my life to going on missions and to serving souls.`` She was 18 years old. Soon thereafter, she joined the Irish Catholic order of nuns that operated missions in India. After spending some time in Ireland, she was sent to Calcutta, where she taught in a Catholic high school and later became the principal of the school. She also mastered several of the indigenous languages of India. In 1930, her order gave her the name Teresa, after St. Teresa of Avila, a Spanish saint of the 16th century.
In 1946, she contracted tuberculosis. While traveling on a train to a hospital for treatment, she received what she described as a ``call within a call.`` From then on, she decided to devote herself to the poorest of the poor, leaving the high school and working in the slums of Calcutta. Within a few years, she had founded her own order, the Missionaries of Charity, whose work she described as providing ``free service to the poor and the unwanted, regardless of caste, creed, nationality or race.`` In 1979, she received the Nobel Peace Prize, ``for work undertaken in the struggle to overcome poverty and distress, which also constitute a threat to peace.`` Upon being told of the honor, she replied, ``I am unworthy.``
At the time of her death, polls showed that Mother Teresa was the most respected woman in the world. Her name was and is synonymous with selfless dedication in the service of humanity. Mother Teresa was not only a spiritual genius, she was a spiritual giant. While it may seem difficult to see yourself in those terms, there is a lot to be learned from her -- a lot that can be applied in your own life, starting now.
Mother Teresa -- Spiritual Genius
When we speak of a person who is deeply spiritual -- a person whose consciousness reaches past the boundaries of ordinary life -- in short, when we speak of a spiritual genius -- what do we really mean by that?
To explore this question, I will be looking here at Gonxhe Agnes Bojaxhiu, much better known as Mother Teresa, whose work with the poor in Calcutta made her a world-renowned icon of charity and pastoral love.
Mother Teresa has been celebrated and elevated to a status beyond that of flesh and blood human beings. This reverence was profound during her lifetime, especially after she was awarded the Nobel Prize for Peace. This veneration has become more complete since her death, with the proposal for canonization as a saint by the Catholic Church, although she has been known as a saint throughout the world for many years.
A childhood friend of the future Mother Teresa recalls her saying in 1928, ``I have decided to dedicate myself completely to God and to devote my life to going on missions and to serving souls.`` She was 18 years old. Soon thereafter, she joined the Irish Catholic order of nuns that operated missions in India. After spending some time in Ireland, she was sent to Calcutta, where she taught in a Catholic high school and later became the principal of the school. She also mastered several of the indigenous languages of India. In 1930, her order gave her the name Teresa, after St. Teresa of Avila, a Spanish saint of the 16th century.
In 1946, she contracted tuberculosis. While traveling on a train to a hospital for treatment, she received what she described as a ``call within a call.`` From then on, she decided to devote herself to the poorest of the poor, leaving the high school and working in the slums of Calcutta. Within a few years, she had founded her own order, the Missionaries of Charity, whose work she described as providing ``free service to the poor and the unwanted, regardless of caste, creed, nationality or race.`` In 1979, she received the Nobel Peace Prize, ``for work undertaken in the struggle to overcome poverty and distress, which also constitute a threat to peace.`` Upon being told of the honor, she replied, ``I am unworthy.``
At the time of her death, polls showed that Mother Teresa was the most respected woman in the world. Her name was and is synonymous with selfless dedication in the service of humanity. Mother Teresa was not only a spiritual genius, she was a spiritual giant. While it may seem difficult to see yourself in those terms, there is a lot to be learned from her -- a lot that can be applied in your own life, starting now.
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