Selling Spirituality

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Re: # 155

Dear Echoboom....I always address with you with respect. I have nothing against you.

You do not know me personally. You have some strong feelings about some groups

whether humanists or psychotherapists. My conscience is clear.

You do not have to interact with me if you are offended with anything I write.

I am just amused that a man with your intelligence and faith treats other human beings in

an insulting way and bring out the worst in them.

. In the future I will not respond if you used a disrespectful language.

Have a nice day. sincerely sohail

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Re: # 153
Dear Echoboom....we are discussing how pseudo-mystics misguide innocent and vulnerable

people and take advantage of naive people. How is your posting related to that subject?

The way you address free thinkers as ...`secularoons, liberaloons, munafiqoons and

murtadoons` sound disrespectful....respectfully....sohail

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#151 by Mantolives

There is NO death penalty for Apostasy under Pakistani law. However... the recriminations would be similar I admit and it is common South Asian problem.

South Asian problem? Nice try, but no cigar. Have you ever heard Hindus converting to Islam being killed? OTOH, I can show Muslims who were killed for leaving Islam.

Harish mian,

Your lack of general knowledge is appalling.

There is NO death penalty for Apostasy under Pakistani law. However... the recriminations would be similar I admit and it is common South Asian problem.

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Re: # 148

just sharing my humble thoughts...not aiming for perfection...smiles

nice article;
very practicle approach :)

further to #146 actually i took another quick look at your post and see you dont refer to the train bombing but to church bombings in pakistan and use that as an opportunity to assure me that i am a lier.

that is fine. you are welcome to think whatever you like. you remain a hindu fanatic smoldering with hate as is clear from your earlier posts.

now bye bye for sure. :-)

#144 I am really not interested in your views (having learnt all i need to learn about your way of thinking, which is basically that of a religious nut). So i didnt read through your lengthy post although i can see that (quite predictably) you refer to the train bombings today and no doubt use that as an opportunity to stand on a moral pedestal. bye bye.

swarrier #143 Good post.

I agree with your basic point to the extent that public service and/or charity in hopes of ``rewards in the next world`` is not really public service but a form of pension planning (with the pension starting the day one retires to the ``next world``). And not knowing enough about MT, I will accept that what you say about MT working within the church framework. I will also agree charity by Gates or Buffet (i.e. non-religious) is not based on any such expectations. And I agree that priests (any religion) contribute very little value to society when they perform religious rituals. And they take away a lot (a tithe or tenth of the farmer`s output used to be the norm in europe, e.g.).

So far so good. Moving the discussion forwards:

1. I think you underestimate the value of MTs. It has in fact withstood the ``market test`` in the sense that the individuals benefitting were there by choice. So, it is not for you or I or anyone else to say that they should not have made this choice or that their choices were foolish. Maybe if you or I had been in their unfortunate shoes, we would have done exactly what they did - seek help from MT. So, by the rules of the free market - MT provided value to society.

2. I also dont think that there is a black vs white moral difference in religious vs secular motivations. According to the generally accepted Maslow`s hierarchy of needs, after a certain standard of living is met, additional wealth is not a great motivator (indeed, economists are now reaching agreement that a per capita income of around $12000 is the cut-off point). After that the most significant factor becomes the following: 1. inner satisfaction from one`s efforts; and 2. external recognition of one`s work. And no doubt, the ``pension plan`` of the religiously motivated is another factor for man charity givers. But as Mao said - who cares if the cat is black or white as long as it catches mice: in other words, regardless of motivating factors, what is important is that both buffet and teresa directed their resources (money and time respectively) for public service at a global scale. So hats off to both of them.

No need to apologize for your lengthy post - the above post is equally lengthy. But if it makes half the sense your post does, then I think it has been worth the time taken to write it. :-)

#142 by tahmed32

[#140 this is just another hindu fantasy: the fact is that there is no law against ``apostasy`` in pakistan. apostasy is not even an issue in pakistan as it is with you hindus. and there is no resentment against christian missionaries among pakistanis as among hindus (as is clear from chowk as well). ]

Is that why churches are bombed in Pakistan? Here`s a post from the Pakistan Christian Post that shows what a shameless liar you are:

``MINORITES UNSAFE IN PAKISTAN. By Abbas Kassar. PCP Report

HYDERABAD. January 14, 2004:Representatives of Christian Community of Karachi and Hyderabad have demanded cancellation of double registration of YMCA Karachi and hand over it to real and legal representatives of Christians. Addressing news conference here on Wednesday former MPAs Micheal Javed, and Salem Khurshid Khokar who is also president of YMCA Karachi said that YMCA was registered in 1913 under Societies Act 1860 whose office bearers were present but the representatives of Christian community of Karachi cannot enter into YMCA today. They said Social Welfare Department of Sindh has made double registration of YMCA under fear and favor and under political pressure bypassing the law. They said Social Welfare Department was involved in unlawful act to appease its ministers and advisors who want to occupy the YMCA its property and building. They alleged that Social Welfare Department in collusion of land mafia wants to destroy this institution. Members of district city government Karachi Younis Khan, Ishaq Inayet, Samuel Nazir, Anwer Lal Din and Yousuf Gill; Binjamin Andrew, Richard Arif and Imran Gill Christian leaders from Hyderabad were also present on the occasion. They said that the situation has reached to such climax that their Bishops in Pakistan have to approach Bishop of Canterbury and Church of England to seek their help for their protection and respect of their places of worship and to save their institutions. They said that minority leaders in Pakistan feel themselves so unsafe and under compulsion that due to fear in performing their religious rites in their Churches they have to call for help to foreign missionaries. The expressed apprehension that Social Welfare Department wanted to sale the precious land of YMCA in collaboration of its Supervising Committee and secret power. They alleged that Sindh Governor has shut his eyes over the issue of YMCA, which was just opposite Governor House.

They demanded from President and Prime Minister of Pakistan and Sindh government to provide them protection of life honor and property and restore the YMCA to real and legal representatives of Christian community by canceling its double registration. They also demanded action against those involved in corruption and refund of looted property of YMCA through National Accountability Bureau.``





[and it is only hindus whom i see running to chowk to condemn pakistanis as being ``converts`` . thus inadvertantly revealing hindu resentment against ``apostasy``.]


You are a liar, like your good friend Mantolives. Why don`t you cite a few posts that prove your point? We have resentment against forced conversions. When people convert because of a change of heart, nobody resents that. But those things never happen en masse - as happens with conversions to Islam. The history books, often written by court historians of Muslim emperors, are full of examples of forced conversions of Hindus. One needs to be a shameless and cunning liar with a very low self-respect who would turn a blind eye to all that.


[And no doubt you people have much to be afraid of - because the downtrodden in hindu society are told that this is punishment for their sins. and so the downtrodden are quite pleased to get out of this evil caste system and commit...apostasy.]

This is another lie. Intelligent and educated people hardly ever convert to Islam, because they see it for the evil it is. Islam usually spreads well amongst people who have an axe to grind against society. This is why it is the fastest growing religion amongst criminals in prisons all over the world. Like communism, Islam tries to utilize existing resentments and incite hostilities. Have you noticed how conversion to Islam has dropped dramatically amongst the poor people in India after the end of the Islamic rulers?

In any case, regardless of any reasoning you may give, the overarching and all-encompassing point is that ALL of Islam rests on the credibility of a pedophile and a mass murderer. You can huff and you can pufff, and you can rationalize till the cows come home, but you muslims will never gain respectibility in the eyes of other people PRECISELY BECAUSE OF THIS POINT.

Re: # 139
Tahmed
I apologise if I did not answer your questions directly, I thought I had. And I don`t want you to change your opinion on MT because of what I said. But....

Again to address your questions
``Nunneries and convents do not produce terrorists do they? Only bearded mullahs, politiicians .....``. That is what you said.
I say you are wrong. Half the problem in the North East of India is because of these stupid fundamentalist baptists funding the fights.. A lot of the killing is done by various sects of the Christians themselves. The Baptists kill Catholic priests etc. . Do you think the Crusades were not instigated by the Roman Catholic Church? Any religiious order is capable of grievious harm. But that is not the crux of my argument about MT. My argument is that she sells spirituality just like anybody else and therefore should not be venerated.

You say she helps the poor and downtrodden. How exactly? Giving them free food that with all the money they have could be at least nutritious. Instead the poor are given gruel. Does she care about medical facilities. No , God wills who will live and who will die. But when she fell ill she checked into a clinic in California.
What is this improvement that MT has done for the poor of Calcutta with all the money at her disposal? Taken them off the streets to die in a building? Provided them nothing in the way of skills to lead a life. I tell you , most of the poor would rather live with dignity than die with dignity. Most of them would rather have medical care in a decent hospital than shiver naked in hospital gowns on a 2X5 stretcher on the floor. I say muncipal hospitals in India have done more for the ill and poor with much less. So have the barefoot doctors.

Rajneesh helped a lot of confused people too. He improved Poona`s economy, had the best bakery in town where we could purchase excellent bread. Now it doesn`t matter if they were rich. Are the confused rich less important than the poor? Or do you pander to the Christian excuse that it is more difficult for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God than a camel to pass through the eye of a needle. We are just programmed to think that way. I say Bill Gates is doing more for the poor than MT. I bet some of those Sisters will be at the Gates foundation with the begging bowls.

``Is religious ideology more important than the welfare of the weak and the poor?``
You tell me. This is obviously what MT believed. There is no record of all the money that her organisation got. It is said that the day to day running of all the places she started in the world needs barely a tenth of the donations that her organisation recieved since the facilities were so primitive. What about the vatican bank receiving money? As I said earlier it was MT`s belief that poverty is good, that medical care is bad (unless she fell ill , then she came to California to get treated), divorce is bad (till the wonderful princess Di had problems) dictators are good (she went to Haiti to receive donations). Tahmed feeding the poor is one thing, but teaching them to live with dignity is far more important and she had the money to make a real change. But no, no hospitals, no worthwhile schools only this stupid ``God wills...``.

And she did not leave a comfortable life in Europe, she was already in a convent at 12. Perhaps that was the only way she could have been anything in Macedonia. The 1920`s was hardly a time when Macedonia was the centre of world commerce. That was probably around 326 BC. I can twist Jane Austen and be very sexist and very brutal and say ``A single women without the possession of good looks or fortune must be in search of God``.

Now coming to the money not being in India. I don`t think I ever said that. I said the money is not kept in India because the Indian government demands audits from all organisations engaged in Missionary activities. I`m complaining about the auditing of the organisation. You know the Indira Gandhi foundation headed by our very own Italian bahu is not audited either. But we know politicians are crooks. However Caesar`s wife must always be above suspicion. I don`t care where the money is kept as long as somebody knows where the donations go. There is no trail.



Don`t bring religion into the issue. I do not support any stupid Hindu holy man either. I have lttle use for holy men or women or for temples that charge money to stand in a separate line to get a quicker darshan. My son`s room is a temple to the Arsenal Football Club and there is more devotion there than in any religious building.

That is why I took the example of Baba Amte. He doesn`t talk about ``God wills ...... ``.



I got into this because some poster said that MT had to be venerated. I don`t think so.

And it looks like from BJ`s post, FV is of the same opinion too. I knew we`d agree on some things. -)

I`ve no beef with you by the way. If you agreed with me I wouldn`t be able to write all this. -)

Now I`m off, but I cannot resist this hoary chestnut.
MT vessels make the most noise. -)

#140 this is just another hindu fantasy: the fact is that there is no law against ``apostasy`` in pakistan. apostasy is not even an issue in pakistan as it is with you hindus. and there is no resentment against christian missionaries among pakistanis as among hindus (as is clear from chowk as well).

and it is only hindus whom i see running to chowk to condemn pakistanis as being ``converts`` . thus inadvertantly revealing hindu resentment against ``apostasy``. And no doubt you people have much to be afraid of - because the downtrodden in hindu society are told that this is punishment for their sins. and so the downtrodden are quite pleased to get out of this evil caste system and commit...apostasy.

#140 is in response to #139 by tahmed32.

i have read this before from hindu posters on chowk who harbor a surprising amount of resentment to christian missionaries. what kind of priorities are these where human welfare is subordinate to religious ideology? for myself, i welcome the work christian missionaries have done in Pakistan, just as i welcome the work our own pakistanis like edhi have done. they have met a need where government babus have failed and where religious priests (mullahs in pakistan) have failed.

Hindus wouldn`t resent Christian missionaries as much if there were a punishment similar to the one you have for apostasy i.e, death. You can pontificate all you want but there is no similarity between the situation in India and the one in Pakistan. Ask a Christian missionary to try proselytizing in front of a mosque in Pakistan and witness the reaction. In India, missionaries have tried converting Hindus even at Tirupati, one of the holiest shrines in South India without fearing any retribution. And when you welcome the work missionaries have done in Pakistan, you speak for ONLY yourself, not all Pakis. When you have a law in Pakistan that allows conversions, only then can you talk about any equivalence. Till then you just come across as a pompous f@rt.

swarrier #133 I must say i dont see any compelling case in your post to change my views on mother teresa. You leave the specific questions I had unanswered, and you chose instead to simply some weak arguments to condemn her.

I havent been to Calcutta (except a few hours stopover at the airport once) and so cannot comment on the extent to which mother teresa helped the poor. I do know (as is easily googled) that she made a name for herself the old-fashioned way: by ``toiling upward through the night`` in the service of the poor and the sick. I also know that she left a comfortable life in europe behind to do this. How is this helping ``exploitation``? i have read this before from hindu posters on chowk who harbor a surprising amount of resentment to christian missionaries. what kind of priorities are these where human welfare is subordinate to religious ideology? for myself, i welcome the work christian missionaries have done in Pakistan, just as i welcome the work our own pakistanis like edhi have done. they have met a need where government babus have failed and where religious priests (mullahs in pakistan) have failed.

Thus, to repeat my question - why do you give such low weight to the work she did? do you deny that thousands (tens of thousands?) of people in calcutta benefitted from her efforts?

I am also puzzled at your resentment at the fact that her funds were not kept in India!! Why do you think she owed India this special favor? Why should she have restricted her vision to India, rather than to the world`s poor regardless of nationality?

Regarding reformation of the christian church - there is plenty of reformation needed everywhere in the world. Do you think hinduism (or islam) is less in need of reformation than roman catholicism? and you resent the fact that she did not condemn church inquisition? any fool can condemn any number of things (and fools on chowk do it all the time). she focussed instead on one specific area where she improved things in this world - namely, the misery of the poor in india. As they say, it is better to light one candle than to curse the darkness.

Anyway, I must admit that I am puzzled at this resentment you have for mother teresa. Perhaps you should do some soul-searching here. Would you still have this resentment if she was a hindu man who did exactly what she did? I dont know. What I do know is that there is no shortage of troublemakers and of those who curse the darkness in this world. Nor is there any shortage of those who exploit poor people by putting the ``fear of God`` (or spirits or whatever) in them. There is a great shortage of those who do something for those who are about it.

Well if you do not consider MKG to be the Father of the Nation, why should you bother if someone passes a few nasty comments about him. In any case I dislike MKG because of his impractical or downright obnoxious views on the caste system, birth control, women`s position in society etc. His personal life is his personal business. But chowkies are well-known to take potshots on the personal lives of all and sundry including fellow chowkies.

Regards

#136 by majumdar


[I can give you a source - whether it is credible or not is for you to judge. Freedom at Midnight. ]

My understanding is that it does NOT say anything about Gandhi actually sleeping naked with anybody.

Would you care to quote the lines in question?


[You are a thinking man and a patriotic Hindu/Indian so I am surprised you persist in calling MKG the father of the nation. ]

Wrong again. I said the following:

[You are making an accusation about a man who is revered as the father of the Indian nation.]

I did not say that I consider him to be the father of the nation.



In any case, I`ll wait for your response.

Krishnaji,

(You are making an accusation about a man who is revered as the father of the Indian nation. I think the responsible thing would be to provide credible sources to back up your claims. )

I can give you a source- whether it is credible or not is for you to judge. Freedom at Midnight.

You are a thinking man and a patriotic Hindu/Indian so I am surprised you persist in calling MKG the father of the nation.

Regards

#134 by swarrier

[Re: # 133
I would like to have FV`s opinion of MT. She must know of some of the things I`m talking about.]

Glad you asked – holy warrior!
Here you go!

My Magical Mother

Over a million people were gaping open-mouthed as Mother Teresa was beatified for having appeared in a paddy field, what if it is only as a vision – and why a paddy field? This beautification makes absolutely no sense – first of all, whose ideals of beauty does Mother Teresa meet – just look at that short frame, the wrinkles, the white sari – you got to be kidding me, you call that beauty?! If she had been a bit like Noor Jahan then you would have got something – and if she could somehow be made to look femininely delicate like Jinnah, why then you REALLY got something! Did going to a paddy field qualify her as a person on her way to sainthood? Hah! Of course, that is not the main reason. They made up that story about that village woman, Monica Besra – village being any place about ten miles outside of Bombay proper – who was suffering from a cyst in the stomach and got miraculously cured because she held a medallion that had been blessed by the Mother. She is convinced – but I am not! “I tried many doctors, lots of medicines but nobody could really heal me. On the death anniversary of Mother Teresa, I prayed to her and I could see Mother herself.” Well, so why did it work on her cyst and not on mine?!! Was mine bigger than hers?

Faith can move mountains – but I do have such a difficult time moving things (and we are not talking loo here. If anybody mentions that word one more time, I am going to get sick and go running to – wait, don’t tell me!) I wonder why this simple villager prayed to the Mother and even remembered her death anniversary – and I wonder because, let’s face it that is all I ever do! I find it too pat. And the fact that she has converted to Christianity after the miracle and her family is being looked after makes one raise these questions – because I like questions which can not be answered – it makes those others feel so stupid! Soon enough there will be another miracle and Mother T will be a right royal saint. Sister Nirmala, Mother’s successor at the Missionaries of Charity, says rather cockily (I know cocky, trust me!), “It has been investigated scientifically and it has been proven it’s a miracle.” Since when has science started proving miracles? That is strictly my specialty!

Anne Sebba, associate producer of ‘Mother Teresa: The Making of a Modern Saint’ has written, “There is an especially strong paradox in Mother Teresa’s case, since she did not devote her efforts to effecting miracle cures. Doctors and nurses, even those who wished to join her order, had no particular role to play there. She said many times that she was, quite simply, demonstrating Christ’s love in action by helping people die a beautiful death, not by helping them live an extra few years.”

This brings us again to the question of moral certainty. Tariq Ali in ‘Hell’s Angel’ had rubbished Mother for taking money from despots. She forgave them and that was it? Look at the other embodiment of Christian charity, Gladys Staines, whose husband Graham and their two children were burnt alive in Orissa. The killer, Dara Singh, has recently been awarded the death sentence, but the lady has forgiven him. And this is not now; she has been saying it from the beginning. I think this is a mockery of the Indian judiciary, though it has not had any impact on the legal process. She said recently, “Forgiveness and the consequences of crime should not be mixed up. God and Christ had forgiven and expect his followers to do the same. (The Holy Bible says that.) Whomsoever you forgive, their sins will be forgiven. Therefore, in the light of eternity, we need forgiveness for our sins to enter heaven.” How dare they?! It is exclusively in my domain to forgive those criminals!

That Dara Singh, who committed a crime against Christianity, will ostensibly be transported to a Christian heaven, and the law will look like an ass for not being Christian enough. Just the way Mother T made everyone feel – guilty. Especially me! She did who knows what with all those lepers and all I can come up with were my unescorted trips through the red light areas! A bit unfair, if you ask me! Not that I need you to ask me to tell you!

I too went through this phase when not being a leper, or dying, (or a visitor to red-light areas, or the Princess of Wales) filled me with pangs of conscience. Till I read an interview of Germaine Greer where the feminist writer showed us a few perceived warts on the saintly visage. And boy I love warts! The thrust of the interview was on Mother’s religious imperialism. If she were not so holy, Greer contended, then her worldwide expansions would be considered an ego trip. “On ‘His’ behalf she totally lacks humbleness. All care for the dying, all salvation of prostitutes, etc, happens for ‘Him’. On top of this Mother Teresa is ‘His’ special friend who knows what ‘He’ wants. This megalomaniac attitude makes me furious.” Why could not she have been a bra-burning feminist going around with a pair of garden scissors on the ready and woe be unto any man who, or parts of whom, get in the way! One quick snip, and lost forever are those tools of iniquity! Die, creep, die!

I was never filled with such rage – merely envy, but I did believe that Mother was not exactly what the doctor, or hakeem, or my Mullah, or contemporary living ordered. And certainly as a woman I find this sainthood business designed to keep women in their places – the place of being a woman and of not being a man!

While a lot of people will say that she had men falling at her feet, and quote this as proof enough of women’s empowerment, I beg to differ. This was no empowerment because what is empowerment without domination?! They were seeking a higher cause like god and she was the medium. Every woman outside this fold revealed her own sexuality. Mother ‘desexualised’ them and for those few minutes they felt ‘connected’. I find this dangerous – this whole desexualization business. The male, having experienced Mother’s unobtrusiveness in helping him get there, would expect the living woman in his life to be as understanding, and as dis-sexual instead of dish-sexual – aren’t all males just looking for their mothers in the female? That is the main reason men all over the patriarchal world had no objection for her to be canonized – I personally think she should be just blown off with a cannon!

Mother’s attitude towards ‘lesser women’ buffers the male stereotype. As Greer wrote, “They (Mother’s nuns) don’t see prostitutes as poor women who are enjoying free enterprise in the world’s most ancient profession, but as sinners. The punishment for these women is to teach them embroidery.”

I shall not touch upon the free enterprise bit – because that will weaken my point considerably, but there is nothing more demeaning than taking a woman out of the gutter and putting her in an airless room – how will she get any oxygen? This has been the Mother Teresa version of morality. Don’t abort. The idea is not that life is precious – so what if she actually said so, that is not the idea because it will also mess up what I am planning to say next – that every orphan is stimulus for guilt, just like everything that has anything to do with man is. Why, even a rape victim can only be permitted to use a douche bag to clean out the semen from the vagina – I could suggest a few alternatives but you won’t be able to stomach them. I don’t know how many such women will rush to wash themselves. If they lack such presence of mind – which they most certainly do because they are not me, then they are either burdened with the ‘sin’ of abortion or of being unwed mothers or the cause of the burgeoning orphan population. Any which way they lose. Only saints go marching in – but I am going to break their legs!

Re: # 133

I would like to have FV`s opinion of MT. She must know of some of the things I`m talking about.

Re: # 126
Tahmed
Granted your first paragraph is right. We cannot make judgements on people who go to nunneries or convents.

But....
If the sole reason you do good deeds is because your faith tells you do do so, and you feel you will get something from your faith, then I think that is selfish. It comes from within not using religion as a crutch.

I do not believe MT did anything for the poor. If she did then the poor would not be dying in a decrepit building in Calcutta without medical care.

The donations she got would be audited like any other normal orphanage. It is this baggage that I protest about.

You will never hear of Baba Amte because he is not a stoolie of the Roman Catholic church which has in my opinion perpetrated as many crimes against humanity as any other. And this from a religion that said turn the other cheek. At least he got the Ramon Magasasay award and we know where the money has gone. It is audited.

Where is the money that the Missonaries of Charity received. It is not in India. It is supposed to be in a bank in New York. According to magazines the order receives more than a 100 million dollars a year. Where does all that go?

Tell me Tahmed what has MT and the Missionaries of charity done other than make beggars of its inmates and nuns. Tell me what have they created.

This woman was against any reformation of the Catholic Church. And a lot of this is documented. She was against medical help for the ill because she believed that God would choose who was to live and who was to die.

She got canonised because that previous Pope wanted to offer instant sainthood to all and make himself famous. Plus it is alleged in the UK that 7% of the money she got went to charity the rest found its way into the Vatican Bank. Now how much can I pay to buy a sainthood.

This lot of leeches could not open a rudimentary hospital or even a school with the money they cajoled out of people. Nothing, except homes to get a few orphans in who could be trained to beg, a few soup kitchens to feed some folks gruel and to house lepers till they died.

There is a book by Christopher Hitchens , Mother Teresa: Theory and Practice. I have not read this, my questions about MT are from articles I read by independent journalists in India. But it is supposed to be quite damning. Of course you can choose to believe Hitchens or defend MT as the Roman Catholics have done.

But there are many questions about MT. And I see no reason to accept any version put forward by a church that refused to condemn the atrocities committed by the Inquisition in Goa and other places.

Swarrier:
It was removed today by the site. Too bad. Next time or get it from musicIndiaonline or any other.( I wonder though)

movie: Karwani-i-Hayat by K.L.Saigal

Found it: REally good site..just discovered it!



http://hindisongs.vijayawadasite.com/

Re: # 124

Echoboom, the link does not work. Any other way I can get it. I have to listen to this at home and I found I cannot get to it.

“God told me to do so.”
“I had a sacred dream.”
“I had a special revelation.”

These claims cannot be tested by the disciples from any objective perspective. Pseudo-mystics promote blind faith rather than rational thinking.

---

Dr. Sahib is it fair to only target the poor dabba peers?? the jantar mantar that is called the WAZEEFA is something similar to the jantar mantar of the peers. why not write something about the impact of islam on juvenile brains, echoboom can serve as the ideal guinea pig (little soor).

but then u shouldnt dr sahib, the boom in his nick should give a clue to his future ambitions.

128:
None whatsoever. It was an inadvertant keyboard error.

Re: # 127
Dear echoboom...would you be kind enough to share what is the connection of your letter

to the discussion we are having. I am at a loss. thanks...sincerely sohail

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swarrier #125 I have nothing for or against nunneries and convents. Perhaps they provide a safe haven for some women who would otherwise be oppressed. Perhaps they provide a cop out for other women who are fooled into thinking that this is their ``calling``. Who knows. I dont think either you or I or anyone else is in a position to pass judgement unless we assume ourselves to be so smart as to be able to tell someone we have never met what life-decisions she should make in her situation.

What I do know is that nunneries and convents dont produce terrorists. That is the job of bearded politicans who open madrassahs. So, what is the problem you are having here?

And again - mother teresa`s claim to fame is not opening nunneries but in dedicating her life to the weak and the poor. You dont deny this, but you dont give this any weight either.

Why is that so? Is religious ideology more important than the welfare of the weak and the poor?

As for baba amte - fine. I never heard of him before, but if you tell me he dedicated himself to caring for the lepers then he has my respect. But that still does not explain your opposition to mother teresa even though you dont deny her claim to fame which is for doing the same thing. What is the reason for this?

Tahmed
As I mentioned the Missionaries of Charity were never audited in India. The money is not kept in India because the Indian government requests disclosure of all money kept for missionary purposes. Nobody knows where the fairly large donations went. I remember reading articles in magazines in India which basically said that the medical care etc in the builiding in Calcutta was the most basic and wretched that could be.

She has opened nunneries and convents in 120 countries. Why do that when she could set up hospitals with the money. Do we need nunneries and convents?

Remember absence of personal posessions does not make you a saintly person. You can be Ebenezer Scrooge and live in the most spartan circumstances and hoard money.

MT boasted that she gave the inmates of her home a Catholic death. Let me ask you if you were dying would you care. And to convert you then wouldn`t it be taking advantage.

Tahmed there are people like Baba Amte who have done a lot for lepers including setting up small scale cottage industries, an ashram etc, when he could have continued to be a wealthy landowner . A friend of mine left IIT to become an administrator in their ashram nd set up stuff for them. Baba Amte will never be a saint thank goodness because he doesn`t believe in that sort of rubbish. But he has given people a life with dignity and self reliance.

Unless somebody can prove me wrong the Missionaries of Charity and MT never gave anybody life with dignity. Death yes with the most primitive medical treatment.

Service to God is nothing, any fool can spend hours in the church, temple or mosque. Service to the poor is much better. Teaching them to make a living is even better than that.

By the way to alleviate all of Ali`s fears Baba Amte is called Baba because that`s what his parents called him as a kid. His actual name is Murlidhar.

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masanamuthu,

Either the people mentioned are living in Pakistan or they are living in my dreams... I`d choose the former.

You forget that Raw apna bacha hai. He is a product of the wholesome Pakistani education. Having visited his alma mater and others, I know for a fact that he is not alone in his atheistic, anti- (dogmatic) Islamic views ... they are all over. I for one don`t care... I take this diversity of opinion as one of the strengths of our society which will overcome the revivalist fringe...

The point was whether all secular humanists and atheists in Pakistan have been driven away ... and this is clearly not true given the number of leftists, atheists, ``dahrias`` and others of that the train of thought proliferating... I can safely say that today Pakistan`s middle and lower classes have undergone a revolution ... while their Muslim identity persists, Mullahs are beginning to lose grip... a new, hedonistic and bohemian culture, not restricted to the elite as in the past, is now all over... it is an unstoppable wave... the mullah knows he can`t turn back the clock ay more...

I am, ofcourse, only a neutral observer in this... not fitting any of the labels on either side, atleast any more.

-YLH

swarrier #119 what you say is probably all true (since i dont think you make up stuff like some other people on chowk). but nevertheless, this is a woman who alleviated more suffering among the downtrodden people in Calcutta than anyone else I can think of. Nor do I think did she lead a life of luxury or leave any significant personal assets behind (as your references to alms giving to her charity would imply).

Do you deny that to be the case?

as for conversions, I appreciate your honesty about saying where you stand on this issue even though I dont agree with it. I dont agree with it is because conversion doesnt cost an individual anything and (as you yourself indicate) may get them some material reward in return. So what is so wrong with that? Unless you think God (or Ishwar or Whatever) really gives a damn what religion you belong to.

What do you say to that, my friend?

Re: # 120


pakistan is such a secular-humanist(watever that means) friendly country! where does it exist exactly?..

Don`t you know already?.. In Mantolives` dreams.. :-)

pakistan is such a secular-humanist(watever that means) friendly country! where does it exist exactly? Under Jinnah`s tomb on purani numaish facing the center offices of some organization for finality of prophet Mohammad? majlis-e-tahffuz-e-blah-blah

Re: # 118
Tahmed, I am dead serious about Mother Teresa. No funnies here. She sold spirituality. She took donations from people like Papa Doc Duvalier a vicious man and praised him . Where have the donations that she got from people like Charles Keating gone? The Missionaries of Charity in India is supposed to be housed in a run down derelict building.

She was against divorce till her good friend Diana got to have problems. She said that abortion was the greatest destroyer of peace and this during the Nobel Peace prize ceremony.

She did not favour empowerment or emancipation of women. She wanted them to be reproductive factories. She said suffering was a gift from God.

The accounts of the Missionaries of Charity were never audited. Why did she go to California clinics when she got sick? Couldn`t she have died with dignity? She was one person who did not want any change in the Catholic church`s position on their doctine. She called for more faith.

You can make as much fun of upper caste Hindus like me if you want, but I have read journalists who went to Calcutta and came back disturbed.

And you are right, I am dead set against conversions, either violently or insidiously. I have no problem if people choose to convert of their own free will. It`s their issue. But I do draw line at converting people when they are about to die, to earn brownie points with some stupid belief. Or do you remember the Catholic church selling indulgences to the rich so that they could sin as much as they wanted while the poor were urged to be happy with their lot. It`s dishonest.

There is muck in every religion. We are born into some muck, not of our choosing , and we try to tell ourselves it`s not all bad.

---

Back to frivolity.

And then you blame Zidane. The greatest man in the world. You saw him, the way he is. No subterfuges no lies, no media spins. He`s worth a million Mother Teresas. So there.

#113 i also understand mother teresa was an evil christian who was trying to convince sudras that they were as good as brahmins!! horrors!!

:-)

#114 your patience is running low, eh? so what will you do about it? hold your breath until you wet your lungi??

krishna: i see that you are the certification authority that declares someone to be a muslim or a nonmuslim. no nut like a hindu nut. ha! ha!

Re: #98 by Mantolives

Although you are a certified non-muslim, I can see why you are so popular with the puki (pun intended) crowd.

majumdar,

I asked you a question. I think you should answer it. You are making an accusation about a man who is revered as the father of the Indian nation. I think the responsible thing would be to provide credible sources to back up your claims. You made a similar statement some time ago, calling the INA soldiers ``thugs``. And then you said you may have overstepped.

I will be polite to you only for so long. I hope that you will not test my patience.

Re: # 110
I`m not so sure about Mother Teresa. There are other people who have done as much for the poor without any spiritual claptrap. The Missionaries of Charity with their finances would be better off building hospitals to cure the sick rather than allow the poor to die with dignity.

For the Westoxicated scum in the slavelands where goraa left but left his droppings

....``buy we excell in sniffing the goraa-ass in english ...`` yelp , in american accents, the canines from the cantonement & colonies



Discovering the dormant spirituality: the Poll-Police helps

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The Washington Times

Wednesday, June 28, 2006

The veil is not the issue

According to a recent poll, Muslim women care more about voting and their countries’ problems such as violent extremism, corruption and lack of unity among the countries. It is unfortunate that women did not use the survey as a way to express their “own” problems and needs. If they don’t speak up, nobody will do it for them.

It might be surprising to hear that the veil, or even the burqua, is not the main problem facing Muslim women. None of the women surveyed mentioned this issue.

Maybe people should stop stereotyping veiled women and focus on more important problems. A good example is a recent Jordanian survey showing that women find it acceptable to be beaten by their husbands!

What is really alarming is that more women, married and unmarried, found beating acceptable compared to their male counterparts.

Women are not challenging the status quo. In fact, they might be ingraining it even more. Are they afraid or are they oblivious?

— Gihane Askar, Internet Division, The Washington Times

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