Ayaan Ali Hirsi and the Big Bad Wolf

#299 Shore writes <<< Perhaps you should do some actual research on America, before you spout your ignorance >>>

I have done more research on it, written more on it, published more on it, taught about at university, than you will ever do. What social services provide is not a drop in a bucket that is why you see women in poverty stay in poverty year after year. Why is it that the largest number of poor in the US, among the poor population are women and children who don`t get enough to eat, have no healthcare and are leading the most miserable kind of life possible? You are the ignorant one not I. Private solutions like provinding ``social service`` is mere distraction while this public issue needs public/state effort to fix it.

One just needs to read your profile, singing the praises of the US, to know the slave mentality you possess.

PM in #298, not interested in taking the discussion into 1001 new avenue, the discussion was only about that verse in the Quran and it is well explained. The ``weeks and months`` signifies a long period while the couple sorts out their problems, it was stated to suggest that the person does not act upon his anger at once. Regarding divorce, the Quran gives a three month braking period before it can be finalized. When it states quit marital relations with them as #2, it is not meant to be for one hour.

It is a fact , i.e. ``realism`` that men and not women get violent more often against the opposite sex, this system is to control men more effectively. Suggesting the same for a woman were she to find a man doing the same would be dumb and dangerous. The woman is not required to be the bread winner even if she earns more than the man, in the Quranic system, if she is that means the roles have been reversed- she is free to get a divorce. When your mother slapped you, she meant it as a ``symbolic`` hit not one to break your jaw. Any other dumb questions you want to ask?

#275 by ShoreSahib

[… when I read the word sex and pear together....I googled the damn thing...]

No harm done. At least you did not go around googling for “sex peer”!

With which your fertile mind would certainly have been able to conjure up vivid images of his peers – Hamidm2 and Masadi perhaps leading the pack!

Highly compromising!

#294 did i say anything different in the past shoresahib? i dont think so. the echobooms of chowk heard from me just as much as the jay thakerays. hamidm has this fantasy that people are fine as long as they drink the right stuff (free if possible), and that reading an ancient book makes them go mad and they start beating their wives and blowing themselves up in boats, trains and aeroplanes.

all i am saying is - and have always said is - that wife abusers beat up wives, not holy books. and mental retards blow themselves up along with innocent people, not holy books. only on chowk would grown men spend an entire day debating this issue. :-)

Re: # 296

Perhaps it would help you to visit a local Department of Human Services and the services they provide for single mothers such as cash assistance, foodstamps, medical care for mother and child, daycare services, educational advancement etc.

Perhaps you should do some actual research on America, before you spout your ignorance.

Last time I checked, the Quran didnt need the likes of you or anyone else to defend it....

You quote the Quran as if you recieved it in your native language directly from God.....Does Allah speak to you directly? Did her Almighty Dhaat tell you personally how to interpret her words.....?

You call yourself Masadi? Do u sit upon the throne of God? then why such pride, such insolence, such confidence that your way is the right way?

Perhaps it would help to learn the golden maxim, ``The more I learn, the more I realize, that the less I Know``.

Why so defensive? Is your Islam so fragile?

Asadi sahib:
Allow me to rephrase my last point into a question, to which I hope you will reply:
Is there any prescribed recourse for a woman should she find that her husband is having his way with his concubines/mistresses, even in a situation where the wife is a co-breadwinner?

Asadi sahib:
When you`re done with your little personal tet-a-tete with hamidm, coul you possibly spare the time to repond to my earlier queries? Would you like me to summarise and reprint them?

I you haven`t the time, inclination or wherewithal otherwise to reply to all my questions and perhaps you could just explain what ``symbolic hitting`` is, and how it is to be distinguished from the knock-on-the-head variety. Also, please calrify whether it is, as 4:34 seems to state, merely the suspicion of infidelity that gives the man the right to emabrk on the Three Step program or must he be reasonably sure of such haraami-pun, as you seem to suggest.

Also, from a Qur`anic standpoint, what recourse, if any, has the wife to a similar offfence by her husband?

Further, please explain ``when the Quran makes it step number 3, it is putting not only a count of ten between people exercising their anger but weeks and months ``

Perhaps I missed something in your posts, but it is not clear how ``weeks and months`` follows from sticking to the three-step method.

And, while it might always be true, as you mention, that women`s evolutionary role has traditionally rendered them, on the whole, more dependent on males than vice-versa, would you not agree that the dependence is an inverse function of paternity laws and penalties enforced by the state. What you call `realism` may not be so at all. I have already pointed out the differences between Pakistan, the US, and Norway in this regard. The only reality is that with the passage of time human society is headed towards a more just system for women and mothers, thus making them less dependent on the whims of their menfolk.

In any case, I think it a little disingenuous to invoke `realism` and to characterize the three-step as humane and just when there seems to be NO recourse for woman should she find that her husband is having his way with his concubines/mistresses, even in a situation, I presume, where the wife is a co-breadwinner.

regards,
PM

PM writes <<< The law, by the way does not state that there is equal retaliation allowed only for `injury`, by which i presume you mean injury of a more lasting, serious, nature. The law provides for retaliation for ANY act of unlawfuldarb >>>>

We were discussing the Quran and not US law, and according to the Quran there is equal compensation/retailiation allowed for injury. The Quran`s recommendations are situational but the situation is defined by its context not by your propagandistic versions of a utopian world which does not exist. Different roles, many biologically circumscribed like child bearing will result in women having an economically disadvantageous positon, as they do in the US, that needs to be compensated for by special preferential treatment and not mere sloganeering as in the US, the so called pargon of women`s lib (which is a mere slogan to sell products by flouting what men consider attractive, even as women are treated as objects, a large percentage of whom suffer from post traumatic stress disorder due to misery and violence in the home).

#286 behram, that info comes from bukhari`s own introduction to his work. Since all those hadith collectors whose books are accepted as ``canon`` through mullah decree happened to be Persian, you might have a point, they also brought in a whole lot of Biblical Judeo Christian gibberish under the fold of Islam, like stoning adulterer etc.

Hamidm, jumping from one deliberate deception to another arent you? What I wrote is very clear and can be accessed by people who want to read what I wrote in its entirety at http://women.rationalreality.com rather than bits and pieces that you reproduce. Don`t waste my time. You all managed to drag me back into this site, considering the attitude of Chowk editors who have shamelessly censored my articles, I was planning not to return. Now, let me resume my leave from on here. I will be posting on my journal for those who are interested, otherwise I am not interested in aimlessly interacting with the usual AHs like hamidm on here.

Regarding his dim wit assertion about Islam, Islam not only gave equal human staus and equal rights based upon justice to women, it was truly revolutionary in how it raised their status in society. The mullah`s and hadith thumpers perverted its clear message for which the Quran or Islam bears no responsibility, the idiots among the so-called Muslims do.

Re: # 291

I like this new Tahmed..... You are so much funnier and laid back after the removal of the ten foot islamic poker from where the sun dont shine........I am so glad you excised the damn thing.....now only if Echodoom could go through a brain transplant..... hey it can happen.....

Refreshing.....

Continue... Tahmed Miyan.......

Re: # 292

Hear, Hear!!!!!

The man has a valid point...........

Re: # 285

masadi,

.... make up your mind - can we or can`t we beat our wives and concubines ..... what the heck does this mean: `` I said no such thing. The system set in place by the Quran is functional, not emotive.`` .......... stop confusing us .... i demand a yes or no answer !

....... bearded charlatans and the watwani crowd always give these gol mol answers when they are caught with their shalwars down ........ what is it with you guys ? ...... why don`t you simply come out and say that in islam, like in all other religions, women have an inferior status and are essentially the property of men .......... once you admit that, we can work on a solution to fix this problem ......... if we stay in denial there will never be a solution and women will continue to be treated like chattel ..........

#273 echodoom: ha! ha! they let him out for fresh air once every two months. then put him back in the straitjacket, and show him movies of white folks who turned muslim. that keeps him happy. :-)

hamidm #276 sure you can beat mrs. hamidm. you are presumably stronger than her. and a spouse abuser doesnt need any holy books to sanction wife abuse.

what matters of course is what happens after that - in Pakistan, the missus would get you a thrashing from her brothers (if that option is available). or suffer in silence (if that option is not available). in the US, she would call 911 and have you carted off to jail for assault.

Like i said - this isnt the 7th century, nor are you some rural landlord who can still get away with wife abuse.

problem solved. next problem?

#279 that is more gibberish. like i said, first provide me the cut and paste of what i wrote that so i can understand exactly what qualifies an individual to be an evil mullah in hindu eyes.

#281 netizen: i dont know what you are trying to say. sounds like gibberish. where is the cut and paste from what i wrote that i asked you to provide so i understand exactly what the term ``mullah`` means to you??

Hamid:

If you want to continue this tradition then please just don`t get caught with the authorities, as Darya Khan did on the other chowk board.

Respectfully submitted,