Ayaan Ali Hirsi and the Big Bad Wolf

Re: # 396

Bhatti Sahib, what you are saying is very true, and Masadi Sahib is aware of the Islamic model. He is just too stubborn to admit that the model is suited only for 6th century Arabia where having sex with slaves was a sign of one’s moral superiority (hey, look Subhanallah, he is so righteous and praise worthy he has sex even with his slaves). Masadi Sahib refuses to see anything wrong with Islam nor favors re-interpretation of the Quran. More and more muslims are rejecting that rigid and outdated ideology. Masadi Sahib knows is very well. He is holding on to this last bit of remnants of hope-rope. At least he listens to his inner voice, if others don`t.

#390 OK genius, so they are only poor and not losers...but point remains...if a household consisting of a husband and wife is poor and below poverty line, how do you expect the woman to get out of poverty by divorcing? They are poor to begin with, whatever the reasons, does not mean woman is getting a raw deal in divorce. They owned zero, they divided zero by 2 and each got zero.


Muslim scholars alway bring mahr as a biggest right that a woman got...for god`s sake it is few hundred dollars...so even if she keeps does not make her rich. tell us honestly, what was the amount you gave as mahr to your wife(or wives) when you married her? then we will discuss how it will help her if she keeps it.

System US has is not perfect..but it is practical and pragmatic..the system you keep on cheering is only on book and even stinks on paper...there is a reason there is not a single state where it is fully in practice. No amount fo scholarship or worshiping will make it any better.

Re: # 392

T Sahib, Not too get into the morality of the issue, but isn’t this type of reasoning actually more harmful to women in Pakistan than the victimization itself? Is there really a need for a “Bhaipana”… can’t women just be women without having a brigade of brothers to protect them? What is wrong with them protecting themselves? I am sure that they are more than capable (much more than the impotent men around them) to take care of themselves.

I can see Teshah Shabi’s point as well. On my last visit to Lahore, I didn’t believe my ears when I heard our intelligentsia getting so uptight about MukhtaraN Mai’s getting international attention. Many so called educated elite were arguing that why is she getting so much attention… why didn’t other victims of rape got attention, blah blah blah…. They all said that the West (and NGOs) was giving MukhtaraN attention to malign Pakistan. You know how our people are, and how their brains are firmly placed inside their ass. So you can give Teshah Sahib a little credit for being in line with the wider and collective thinking of Pakistani intelligentsia.

Re: # 163


muslims claim `` ORIENTALST `` Version of History is Not UN_BAISED.....


because it differs with their version of History......!!

Re: # 392

Well said!!

teshah #389 you write BTW, are those good ladies related to you? The way you took offence on my post it appears that you are a low-caste brat and Mai is your real sister as it was her family who took her to the punchayat whereby she was allegedly gang-raped by Mastoies.

yes. mukhtaran mai is my sister. just as any woman who is bad-mouthed by two-paisa types like you is my sister. just as mukhtaran mai is the sister, and all oppressed women, of every self-respecting man on earth. scum like you can only abuse women when there is no man around to give you scum the thrashing you need.

``you don`t have to define what I mean by ``natural`` or ``functional``, people who can read can get exactly what I mean by them.``


Listen you dumb a$$ you are getting exposed and you do not show any scholarship but bigotry while making those sweeping statements with propaganda words like ``natural``, ``REAL`` ...........including those eulogies about your own `scholarship`.............. you referred to this article which was supposed to support your thesis that women get the best deal changing nappies and tolerating a little bit of domestic violence.................and you quote some article which is supposed to show some evidence that Kids are better are in a two-parent families ......is that a joke or you think I will accept whaever propaganda you mouth because you quote from the books!!!

You remain a bigoted mullah Asadi and think that by referring to ANY study you can substantiate your bigotry.................I think you must have got your graduate degree by cheating and faking through your term papers..............

Ballukhan in #387 & #388, you don`t have to define what I mean by ``natural`` or ``functional``, people who can read can get exactly what I mean by them. You on the other hand want to cloud those concepts with your dim wit bigotry. When I say there is overwhelming social research to point to that fact, it means there is zero evidence to point in any other avenue. I have read profession studies on it, done papers on it, if you are illiterate and don`t want to read that work and the references, it is not my problem. Here is just one confirmation of fresh research from 2005, which comes years after dozens of studies whose findings are being replicated in this one (Kids better off in two-parent families http://www.azcentral.com/families/articles/0913marriagehealth.html )

How many times do I have to stump your dumb a$$ through knowledge before you realize that just because you can throw out the ``P`` (propaganda) word and show your ignorance of the facts and research that you are unto something. The only thing you are unto is BS.


#385 DB, you have no clue about reading social data do you? Just because the vast majority of those that get divorced have zero or negative net worth, does not say that they are losers, it says that this economic system is robbing them blind by ensuring that the top 1% monopolize the net worth in this country. Further, when women divorce they suffer in their financial standing, not because of net worth but again becauce of an economic institution that offers them very little by wage and work segmentation and assigns the total care of the kids to the mothers both physically and financially while freeing the father for market activities. Finally, the Quran not only set a system that would ensure equal standing of women by ensuring that a widow be provided not only out of the share she gets of the property of her husband, keep her mahr and to top that off, ONE YEAR maintainence and residence, and help with remarriage but also that divorced women be provided with maintainence on similar scale until they remarry. The system of tyranny that exists in the US today regarding the family, cannot hold a candle up to the just system of the Quran regarless of the BS that ballukhan is spouting comparing marriage to slavery.

Re: # 366

I would, of course, welcome being gang-raped but only by the opposite sex including, if you like, those you mentioned in you post. I won`t mind even `Chhitrol` after that.

Faiz had said:

Aae kuchh abr kuchh shirab aae
phir iske bahd aae jo azaab aae

BTW, are those good ladies related to you? The way you took offence on my post it appears that you are a low-caste brat and Mai is your real sister as it was her family who took her to the punchayat whereby she was allegedly gang-raped by Mastoies. Why don`t you try yourself the charishma of Mastoies` rape which has made Mai the envy of all women, nay, a role-model of a sort. They, the Mastoies, would be saying:

Ham ko duaaein do tujhe qaatil bana dia

In fact you are showing the same attributes.

``.........and a most secure way for women to prosper.....``


Slave runners used to give exactly similar arguments to justify slavery...........IT IS THE BEST OFFER FOR THE SLAVES.........

Re: # 384

``..I call it the most natural/functional structure of the ``family`` ........``

Just like wife beating is NATURAL to an Islamist! and by FUNCTIONAL you mean functional to keep your 7th century social order in equilibrium? ....you are again trying to play around with the words and trying to pass off your propaganda by calling every other social order as a ``crude aberration``.......................

Re: # 384
``There is overwhelming social research...``

Before you open your mouth next time.......please provide proper reference and not some stupid `read-the-asadi.org-answer` . Provide the exact quotation from the empirical researches and do not try to talk jargon like `metaphsic of War` without explaining what you mean by it on this Board.

You have been trying to pass of propaganda as `research`. So much for intellectual honesty!!

#385 ``The people affected the most by divorce in the US have zero or negative net worth, half of zero is zero, unlike this BS the Quran mentions maintainence and sustainence be provided and the man be responsible for ``

---

Masadi, so a woman is a loser..marries a loser and 2 losers are getting a divorce and now you think she should somehow come out of it affluent? So in Qoranic system only rich are affected by the divorce? poor people don`t have divorce?

Single moms don`t suffer as much as they would have if stayed married to the wrong guy they chose...e.g. most of the divorced Desi women I know in US are doing much better than when were married...yes it is hard to raise kids when single, but it is doable and lot of people are doing it. I personally know this lady who married an abusive husband for few years..had 2 daughters from him and then got divorced...no alimony...no property as they did not have any...but still found job(s) and raised the girls..both now doctors..one medical and one a scientist (the real one..not some religious science).

btw we all see how married women suffer in Qoranic society.

ballukhan writes in #376 <<< Thanks God..............that horrible Patriarchal god ordained ``durable` institution called `Family` is breaking........ >>>

You might call it ``God ordanined`` if you so choose to, I call it the most natural/functional structure of the ``family`` with everything else being crude aberrations. There is overwhelming social research to point to the fact that a two parent family is best for the social, psychological, financial and emotional development of kids and a most secure way for women to prosper~ we see how single moms suffer in this society.

PM writes quoting ballukhan <<< ``It is well known that the western civil marriage courts order greator compensation and maintenance than any of your Hadith or non-Hadith inspired Islamic court do...`` >>>

Nonsense. The people affected the most by divorce in the US have zero or negative net worth, half of zero is zero, unlike this BS the Quran mentions maintainence and sustainence be provided and the man be responsible for the kids, unlike the system here where the mother has take the burden of bringing the kid up by themselves, and the child support system with its many absconders is next to nothing. The fact show that women lose their financial standing by almost a third after divorce while men gain by 10%- this is empirical proof that what you talk about as ``greater compensation`` is total BS.

#381

I know it is the wrong board.

But does anybody else?

And does anybody care?