Islam and the Age of Globalization

#102 by bjk

Of course, no one can predict the future of the would-have-been past, but it is the absence of minorities that seems to have done the present-day Pakistanis in! Like a fire, blind hatred and prejudice grow the fastest when there is nothing to vocally oppose them – to say, “Hey wait – that ain’t right!”

Beej Bhai, isn`t that something Pakis did out of their own volition? First, they chose to migrate to Pakistan voluntarily. No one who stayed back was asked to pack his bags and leave (Thank God, we`re all the more richer for it). Second, they reduced the minorities to second-class citizens, who to escape it chose to convert to Islam, which reduced the number of minorities even more. Third, they indoctrinated children to hate all other religions via their text books.

Pakis chose their own fate. Today they`re suffering because of the choices their forefathers made. The only folks you should feel sorry for are those who were born after Partition and had no say in where they were born but going by Pakis` posts here, they are even more vehement defenders of that old fool, so just leave them alone. Everyone gets what they deserve.

Re: # 129
Harish,
abay, juma juma aat (8) din huay naheen aap logon ko aur challay dunya ko samjhaney....u guys sud be thanking Jinnah for creating Pakistan, had he not u wud still be stuck in your primordial status as a socialist country. And I agree with your advise, ppl sud not only leave others to do as they wish, they sud also be able to respect their right to choose, kiun bhai is`nt that the case in true demo-kratic principles. Aur sunaye, kaisay wachar hein appke....akhir aap humaray parosi huway naa....

#130 by rf786

abay, juma juma aat (8) din huay naheen aap logon ko aur challay dunya ko samjhaney....u guys sud be thanking Jinnah for creating Pakistan, had he not u wud still be stuck in your primordial status as a socialist country.

There was nothing democratic about Pakistan`s creation, because democracy is about equality first and foremost and those who were at the forefront of Partition, despite the bluster, were anything but democrats.

And I agree with your advise, ppl sud not only leave others to do as they wish, they sud also be able to respect their right to choose, kiun bhai is`nt that the case in true demo-kratic principles.

Yaar, I can respect the choice of the folks who left on their own to Pakistan, though I can never justify Pakistan`s creation. But yeah, after knowing Pakis here, I`m beginning to feel a sense of gratitude for Jinnah (and more importantly Sardar Patel and Nehru for agreeing to it) for unknowingly having done a world of good to India.

#130 by rf786

abay, juma juma aat (8) din huay naheen aap logon ko aur challay dunya ko samjhaney....u guys sud be thanking Jinnah for creating Pakistan, had he not u wud still be stuck in your primordial status as a socialist country.

There was nothing democratic about Pakistan`s creation, because democracy is about equality first and foremost and those who were at the forefront of Partition, despite the bluster, were anything but democrats.

And I agree with your advise, ppl sud not only leave others to do as they wish, they sud also be able to respect their right to choose, kiun bhai is`nt that the case in true demo-kratic principles.

Yaar, I can respect the choice of the folks who left on their own to Pakistan, though I can never justify Pakistan`s creation. But yeah, after knowing Pakis here, I`m beginning to feel a sense of gratitude for Jinnah (and more importantly Sardar Patel and Nehru for agreeing to it) for unknowingly having done a world of good to India.

BJK & Arjun,


Do you that this jahangasht is Bina Shah (who`s doing this expletives with ease!)? Wow, she`s a lady with steel b**bs and silver tongue! Bravo!

Friends! It`s admirable that Prof Ahmed did something unintentionally. He did cast the role of J, the real life blood thirsty beast with the celluloid blood thirsty beast i.e Christopher Lee.

We work hard and make money and the Paks too want the same training for them (at Bangalore) and are getting the necessary training here in our midst. Perhaps they too want to work off their arses and feel ten and half feet taller! Wish them good luck.

For Indian friends, pl dont feel for the vomit (Pakistan). You are not going to eat it again.

{There was nothing democratic about Pakistan`s creation, because democracy is about equality first and foremost and those who were at the forefront of Partition, despite the bluster, were anything but democrats.}

democracy is about equality first, totally agree with u, then how come u do not want to give the same right to muslims of the pre-partition sub-continent? As for the muslim leaders of that movement, they were as democratic as those who belonged to Congress ot other political parties of that time.

{But yeah, after knowing Pakis here, I`m beginning to feel a sense of gratitude for Jinnah (and more importantly Sardar Patel and Nehru for agreeing to it) for unknowingly having done a world of good to India.}

there is this famous urdu song which goes as ...`kuch log root ker bhee lagthey hein kithnay pyaray...kuch log`...kiun bhai, hum sey koi ghalthee hogaia other than the Paki creation thing? anyways, the fact u r expressing gratitude shows u have the ability to express human feelings, we can build from there....

#134 by rf786

democracy is about equality first, totally agree with u, then how come u do not want to give the same right to muslims of the pre-partition sub-continent?

One man, one vote, irrespective of religion. What more ``same rights`` did Muslims want?

As for the muslim leaders of that movement, they were as democratic as those who belonged to Congress ot other political parties of that time.

ML leaders were mostly landlords and Nawabs. Please read up more.

Re: # 135

{One man, one vote, irrespective of religion. What more ``same rights`` did Muslims want?}

right of self-determination.

{ML leaders were mostly landlords and Nawabs. Please read up more}

If u r a landlord, nawab or pandith does that make u lesser of a person in any way? I thought we were talking about equality? ML was dominated by Jinnah and he was niether of the two. Yes, they did make political alliances in 1946 with the unionist party a feudal dominated party in Punjab, maybe that was`nt the brightest thing to do, but gave ML its much needed muslim votes in Punjab. At the same time, ML entered into political alliances with the socialist in Bengal, the most populace muslim province. Thereofre, your line of argument is niether here or there, maybe its u who needs to do the reading, then again that wud be presumptuous and rude on my part, therefore...jay ram ke...

#136 by rf786

right of self-determination.

If right to self-determination is a democratic right, would you allow Balochistan to secede? There already seems to be a movement to that effect.

If u r a landlord, nawab or pandith does that make u lesser of a person in any way? I thought we were talking about equality? ML was dominated by Jinnah and he was niether of the two.

The point is not that. It is that these feudals and Nawabs had more their own interests in mind and less that of ordinary Muslims. If you see in retrospect, these feudals continue to dominate Pakistan`s polity, while ordinary Pakis are nowhere in the equation, so there.

Re: # 137

{If right to self-determination is a democratic right, would you allow Balochistan to secede? There already seems to be a movement to that effect.}

To be honest, maybe not. Then again, given our experience in East Pakistan I wud certainly give them the right to express their dissent and wud insist on giving them a fair chance. Pakistan messed-up with the Bengalese, we must not repeat the same mistake in Baluchistan.

Wud u follow your own advise in Kashmir or Assam? Its not that simple is it?

{The point is not that. It is that these feudals and Nawabs had more their own interests in mind and less that of ordinary Muslims. If you see in retrospect, these feudals continue to dominate Pakistan`s polity, while ordinary Pakis are nowhere in the equation, so there}

True, Nehru and his congress party was smart enough to break these feudals, rajputs etc immediately after partition, maybe, maybe had Jinnah remained alive for just a few more years things wud have been different for Pakistan, then again to be honest this is just speculation.

Re: # 137

Harish brother,

Avan periya naayi/Vaado pedda Kukka. Ama daani gaadu. Idi vaadi Maaru peru. Slippery candidate.

To familiarise and get latest news on Baloch issue, pl visit:

www.governmentofbalochistan.blogspot.com
www.balochwarna.org
www.bso-na.org
www.balochvoice.com
www.ostomaan.org.

Best.

#138 by rf786

Wud u follow your own advise in Kashmir or Assam? Its not that simple is it?

I already made it very clear that I`m against secession based on religious, linguistic or even regional grounds. In fact, I`m against secession of any kind. The best bet for India is to stick together and thrive in the diversity (which is already hapening) and not bicker over parochial issues. How do you expect me to support such demands?

True, Nehru and his congress party was smart enough to break these feudals, rajputs etc immediately after partition, maybe, maybe had Jinnah remained alive for just a few more years things wud have been different for Pakistan, then again to be honest this is just speculation.

See, that`s the basic flaw in the ML structure. There was just one leader Jinnah. He lacked the foresight to cultivate and mentor a second-rung leadership that could take over when the need arose (something that is being repeated in today`s Pakistan. What after Musharraf?). Do you think the feudals would have sit by idly if Jinnah had tried to move against them? In any case, the feudals used Jinnah (and not the other way round as many would like to believe) to achieve their aims of a more secure future (since the Congress had made it clear that it would abolish the Zamindari system as soon as it came to power). It would have been impossible for him because to a large extent, it was with their support/financial muscle that he could achieve his aim, and they extracted their pound of flesh in the form of their fiefs.

#139 by Folio

Thanks for the link yaar. BTW, are you Telugu or Tamil? And where are you from?

#81 PM writes <<< Its is proving the larger cultural admiration that would help you make your point. >>>

That is where you don`t understand the concept of cultural hegemony and the hundreds of billions spent by America to push its culture, advertising, movies, media etc. When shalwar kameez becomes as popular among the US public like jeans have become in the Muslim world, when movies from India have as wide coverage as hollywood in the third world, then you can talk about reciprocity in cultural recognition, not before. Similarly democracy and freedom might not be only American values, in fact I argue that they don`t even exist in America, but such hegemony has made sure that they are patented as ``American``, and that is the way they are recognized around the globe as well.

Re: # 141


Harish bro,

We can communicate thru` emails. Pl see my ilog. More info in mails.

Thanks.

Re: # 140

{already made it very clear that I`m against secession based on religious, linguistic or even regional grounds. In fact, I`m against secession of any kind. The best bet for India is to stick together and thrive in the diversity (which is already hapening) and not bicker over parochial issues. How do you expect me to support such demands?}

I do not expect anything, Iam merely asking for a response on the right to choose, whether its based on religion, language or regional grounds that is immaterial in the context of our line of discussion. What if tomorrow, gays in India demand the right to choose, exercizing their democratic right, u certainly can oppose or support their demand that wud be your democratic right. Then, why not allow the same right to those who feel disenfranchized, the urge to go their own way Or, provide them with a better alternative. Forcing excuses of diversity or state security or giving them shining Inida placards is all hogwash and in direct contradiction to the basic principles of democracy.