‘Our Liberals’ and Minority Psyche

#47 by Mantolives

Lets put it this way... Jinnah for whatever his faults... was still a thousand times better than the racist casteist misogynist freak that Gandhi was ...

As they say, actions speak louder than words. For all his talk about letting women walk side by side, he couldn`t swallow the fact that his daughter could marry a non-Muslim, something that he himself had done a few years ago. For all the talk about being the ``best ambassador of Hindu-Muslim unity`` he was THE cause for the division between the two communities, and in the process the murder of millions of Hindus and Muslims alike.

I find no one more racist, casteist, misogynist, communalist hypocrite than the old TB-ridden fool.

Ah, Jinnah…. That source of permanent phantasm and climactic exhilaration for the present day Pakistani liberals, with powers far exceeding those of sex – Pakistani style (perhaps a bit biased in favor of the male)!

Jinnah…. The great grand daddy of all Muslim terrorists of the present! The man who believed in “direct action” – the subcontinent’s own day of infamy and his very own brainchild!

Yes, Jinnah….Just the right “adrak” for foolish and naïve minds who fail to see the hypocrisy of the ultimate charlatan who more than anybody else, single-handedly brought their present day misery about!

Misery that surrounds them even as they wallow in their filth of “Muslim exclusivity”!

The unpleasant reality in the present day Pakistan is that if Mohamed Ali Jinnah were to reincarnate and change his name to something different and tried to talk pluralism – he would not be elected dog catcher!

I believe the author, in spite of his obvious bias toward the fundamentalists of his country – is accurate in expressing that such liberals are destined to be sidelined – that unpleasant truth so difficult to face by dishonest liberal creatures.

Re: # 50 BJK and HH please accept that Jinnah, taught Pakistanis a lesson they will not forget soon. The lesson he taught was one which was forgotten by the Muslim Nation in India - that of be martial. The last few years of the Mughals were spent in dressing up and running after women in various khotis and the martial lessons were all forgotten.

Jinnah single handedly taught them this lesson, a lesson which has borne fruit since then. Otherwise how could a flea riddent, moth infested country (I paraphrase the great ``gentleman`` here) be such a thorn in the side of India and continue to be a match for India. Even after all the recent developments, Pakistan is still hypenated with India. Nothing can change that.

Jinnah taught self-respect. He taught how to get it. He provided a framework from which the Muslims can regain their past glories and rule the land between the Indus and the Ganges, The Himalayas and the Indian Ocean. This you cannot take away from him.

If you want to call his lesson a lesson in Jihad, you guys are way off the mark and indicates a lack of understanding of this man and his methods. You need to learn the true nature of him. Please read what Mantolives has written about Jinnah and his methods, his life and speeches.

#51 by iron_mask

[The last few years of the Mughals were spent in dressing up and running after women in various khotis and the martial lessons were all forgotten.]

Ama yaar, who says the Pakistanis have forgotten those lessons?! Are you aware of the current Pakistani birth rate!

They never did!

However, I truly wish that Pakistan can match India some day – when it comes to tolerance for its minorities. But my hopes get dashed every time I observe the hypocrisy of the Pakistani liberals – in such matters as terrorism.

Jinnah was doing in his own way what the hijackers of IC-814 were to repeat decades later – cutting throats to get their own way!

Their “accomplishments” match too.

They both won the round but lost the war.

Because you see my dear, they had lost the game before it even started.

They had already surrendered their souls to the devil!

And so have these fakers – the Pakistani liberals!

#51 by iron_mask
(Addendum)

[He provided a framework from which the Muslims can regain their past glories and rule the land between the Indus and the Ganges, The Himalayas and the Indian Ocean. This you cannot take away from him.]

Ama yaar, they already HAD those lands – it was the creation of the Pakistan which got it out of their possession.

BJ gone crazy as usual... defaecating and polluting the board with his filth because he has
no real arguments... calling Jinnah this or that won`t change one bit the facts of history - if and when people choose to read it...

And the world has begun to realise the reality... On the US Congressional Records there exists a record of Gandhi`s racism... which I produce for the record:


FROM THE US CONGRESSIONAL RECORD:

RACISM OF INDIAN FOUNDER EXPOSED
(Extensions of Remarks - December 13, 2005)

HON. EDOLPHUS TOWNS
OF NEW YORK
IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
TUESDAY, DECEMBER 13, 2005


Mr. TOWNS. Mr. Speaker, the unveiling of a statue of Mohandas K. Gandhi in Johannesburg, South Africa, set off a discussion about the anti-black racism of the founder of India.

When the eight-foot high Gandhi statue was unveiled, portraying him as a young human-rights lawyer, many leaders attacked Gandhi`s anti-black statements. “Gandhi had no love for Africans,`` said one letter in The Citizen, a South African newspaper. “To him, Africans were no better than the `Untouchables` of India.``

As you may know, Mr. Speaker, the dark-skinned aborigines of the subcontinent, known as Dalits or “Untouchables,`` occupy the lowest rung on the ladder of India`s rigid and racist caste system. The caste system exists to protect the privileged position of the Brahmins, the top caste. Although it was officially banned by India`s constitution in 1950, it is still strictly practiced in Hindu India.

Others have pointed out that Gandhi ignored the suffering of black people during the colonial occupation of South Africa. When he was arrested and forced to share a cell with black prisoners, he wrote that they were “only one degree removed from the animal.`` In other words, Mr. Speaker, he described blacks as less than human. We condemn anyone who says this in our country, such as the Ku Klux Klan and others, as we should. Why is Gandhi venerated for such statements?

In addition, G.B. Singh, a Gandhi biographer, has looked through many pictures of him and never seen one single black person. Gandhi also attacked white Europeans.

Gandhi is honored as the founder of India. These statements and attitudes reveal the racist underpinning behind the secular, democratic facade of India. It explains a worldview that permits a Dalit constable to be stoned to death for entering the temple on a rainy day, that allows the murders of over 300,000 Christians in Nagaland, over 250,000 Sikhs in Punjab, Khalistan, over 90,000 Muslims in Kashmir, tens of thousands of Christians and Muslims elsewhere in the country, including Graham Staines and his two young sons, and tens of thousands of Assamese, Bodos, Dalits, Manipuris, Tamils, and other minorities. It explains why the pro-Fascist, Hindu militant RSS is a powerful organization in India, in control of one of its two major political parties.

India must abandon its racist attitudes and its exploitation of minorities. It must allow the enjoyment of full human rights by everyone. Until it does so, we should stop our aid and trade with India. Furthermore, Mr. Speaker, the essence of democracy is the right to self-determination. India must allow self-determination for Kashmir, as it promised the United Nations in 1948, in Punjab, Khalistan, in Nagaland, and wherever the people seek to free themselves from the boot of Indian oppression. We should put this Congress on record in support of self-determination for the people of the subcontinent in the form of a free and fair plebiscite on the question of independence. Khalistan declared its independence on October 7, 1987. The people have never been allowed to have a simple, democratic vote on the matter. Instead, India continues to oppress the people there with over half a million troops.

Mr. Speaker, reporter Rory Carroll of The Guardian wrote an excellent article on the controversy about the Gandhi statue. I would like to place it in the Record at this time.

[The Guardian, Friday Oct. 17, 2003]

GANDHI BRANDED RACIST
AS JOHANNESBURG HONOURS FREEDOM FIGHTER
(By Rory Carroll)

It was supposed to honour his resistance to racism in South Africa, but a new statue of Mahatma Gandhi in Johannesburg has triggered a row over his alleged contempt for black people. The 2.5 metre high (8ft) bronze statue depicting Gandhi as a dashing young human rights lawyer has been welcomed by Nelson Mandela, among others, for recognising the Indian who launched the fight against white minority rule at the turn of the last century.

But critics have attacked the gesture for overlooking racist statements attributed to Gandhi, which suggest he viewed black people as lazy savages who were barely human.

Newspapers continue to publish letters from indignant readers: “Gandhi had no love for Africans. To [him], Africans were no better than the `Untouchables` of India,`` said a correspondent to The Citizen.

Others are harsher, claiming the civil rights icon “hated`` black people and ignored their suffering at the hands of colonial masters while championing the cause of Indians.

Unveiled this month, the statue stands in Gandhi Square in central Johannesburg, not far from the office from which he worked during some of his 21 years in South Africa.

The British-trained barrister was supposed to have been on a brief visit in 1893 to represent an Indian company in a legal action, but he stayed to fight racist laws after a conductor kicked him off a train for sitting in a first-class compartment reserved for whites.

Outraged, he started defending Indians charged with failing to register for passes and other political offences, founded a newspaper, and formed South Africa`s first organised political resistance movement. His tactics of mobilising people for passive resistance and mass protest inspired black people to organise and some historians credit Gandhi as the progenitor of the African National Congress, which formed in 1912, two years before he returned to India to fight British colonial rule.

However, the new statue has prompted bitter recollections about some of Gandhi`s writings.

Forced to share a cell with black people, he wrote: “Many of the native prisoners are only one degree removed from the animal and often created rows and fought among themselves.``

He was quoted at a meeting in Bombay in 1896 saying that Europeans sought to degrade Indians to the level of the “raw kaffir, whose occupation is hunting and whose sole ambition is to collect a certain number of cattle to buy a wife with, and then pass his life in indolence and nakedness``.

The Johannesburg daily This Day said GB Singh, the author of a critical book about Gandhi, had sifted through photos of Gandhi in South Africa and found not one black person in his vicinity.

The Indian embassy in Pretoria declined to comment, as it prepared for President Thabo Mbeki`s visit to India.

Khulekani Ntshangase, a spokesman for the ANC Youth League, defended Gandhi, saying the critics missed the bigger picture of his immense contribution to the liberation struggle.

Gandhi`s offending comments were made early in his life when he was influenced by Indians working on the sugar plantations and did not get on with the black people of modern-day KwaZulu-Natal province, said Mr. Ntshangase.



Harish mian,

What you think or don`t think is immaterial.

The fact of the matter is that it was Gandhi who was racist and is recorded as such... it was Gandhi who was a casteist bigot and he was exposed as such. So you can go on repeating the same old ...

``However, I truly wish that Pakistan can match India some day – when it comes to tolerance for its minorities.``

God forbid...

I for one would never let it happen... mass state sponsored pogroms is what India`s minorities suffer... lets face the facts. Catholic Priests and their young sons were not burnt alive in Pakistan ... they were burnt alive in India... and it is India where thousands of people were maimed mercilessly for the crime of being a Muslim... God forbid that we ``match`` the record of a caste ridden Hindu fanatic society when it comes to minorities... Atleast now the hapless millions of India have a choice of illegally being transported to Pakistan...


And god forbid ... if Pakistan decides to match India`s penchant for female foeticide...

PS: Those who really want to see the reality of Indian Muslims and their plight in India ... ought to visit NADRA offices in Lahore ... or the Machine Readable Passport Offices in Garden Town ...

Everyday - and this anyone can go and check- you will find many emaciated poverty stricken Indian Muslims surrendering their Indian Passports and applying for Pakistani citizenship...

These are the hard facts... the fact that for a common Indian, Pakistan is nothing less than paradise ... that there is mass and large scale Indian Muslim migration that continues even to this day .. that has forced me to conclude that all is not well in BJK`s utopian Indian Republic...

#56 atleast they are able to make it to pakistan in tact....thanks the lord for small mercies!
their souls can be regenerated and their minds renewed - free from the torments visited upon them. They are the faces of Indian Discrimination. Thank the lord Pakistan doesnot have to suffer the same ignominy and you donot see such scenes on the other side.

BTW Mantolives, howz your nazi organisation coming along. Heard you were a supporter of the Nazis and considered Hitler and his men to be great visionaries. More power to you man! Thats the way to go forward. You should be really proud and pleased to have found something which makes your heart grow fonder.....apart from jinnah

Re: # 52
now, now BJK whats this? Do I detect a small note of dissatisfaction here? Pakistani Liberals are a great lot and are the ones who should be watched. they are the weather wanes (banes) of the country. You can detect which way the wind blows by reading their thoughts and watching their actions.
So dont go denigrating them.

You need tea leaves at the bottom of the cup to be able to read them. The pakistani Liberals are like those tea leaves.

There is no contradiction here.. If I hate one Nazi ... aka Gandhi... I hate the other one equally... Adolf Hitler and Mahatma Gandhi were two sides of the same coin... their racial views even match word to word... read Gandhi`s statements on Indo-German Racial stock and you`d think he was in touch with ``Brother Hitler`` (as he called him) through out his life...

PS: No wonder... both of them were the finalists of the Nobel Peace Prize award the same year...

Manto mian,

(Catholic Priests and their young sons were not burnt alive in Pakistan ...)

But a Bishop did burn himself in protest and a few non-Muslim blasphemers have been dealt with appropriately.

(Atleast now the hapless millions of India have a choice of illegally being transported to Pakistan)

How come I don`t see a mad scramble for Pakistan even among India`s Muslims.

(Pakistan is nothing less than paradise)

Very true sir. But to go paradise, ..... you have to die first

(And god forbid ... if Pakistan decides to match India`s penchant for female foeticide... )

Should not be an issue for Pakistan at least. Your Pathan citizens can teach you how to substitute boys for girls if they are in short supply.

(that has forced me to conclude that all is not well in BJK`s utopian Indian Republic)

For once I agree with you wholeheartedly, India has a long way to go before it even reaches a second world status, some parts will have to wait 50 years for even third world status.

Regards

Re: # 60 who am I to disagree with you, man! But heard you sympathised with Hitler and the Nazis and considered them to be great visionaries and wished that the pakistan leadership had the same abilities.

Man imagine where Pakistan would have been had this been the case.

BTW mantolives, can you nominate Jinnah for the Nobel posthumously? I am sure such a case can be made. maybe you should do it, nominate him, and get someone to support him. The forms etc should be available on-line - if you go to this site you should be able to get all the information and the nomination procedure

http://nobelprize.org/nomination/

even if it is not possible, you should nominate him, and see what the committee thinks of the nomination. Even if they it is a good nomination, unfortuantely we cannot consider him becuase he is dead, you can declare victory - for it is more than what the other got......

Re: # 56

Mantoo Yaar, shouldn’t the stranded Biharis be given the same opportunity to apply for Pak passport (good only for wiping one’s ass).