Lament of a Disillusioned Citizen

Re: # 69

Don`t be an ignorant fool by using the convenient baton of generalization to back your argument. But I guess idiots like you can do no better. I wasn`t talking about world issues, my comments were just about the discussion boards here at chowk. So, I repeat my question, don`t you have anything better to do with your pathetic life?

{ Nawaz was so drunk with power that he tried to kill the military general.}

And yahya was so drunk literally and with power that he gladly sacrificed more than half the country. Take your pick!! And if you are going to say that that not every dictator is a Yahya than please first consider that not every democratic leader is a nawaz or benazir. There may be better people in the waiting if only the military will just stick to its own job. You talk about forgetting too soon. Rather its you who has clearly forgotten all the bullshit we have inherited from the military dictators. A booming economy from Ayub all the wealth of which was carelessly lost in a baseless war. I have already talked about Yahya. And Zia with his floods of money due to dear old Afghanistan whom he protected more than he ever cared about the Pakistanis for whom he left legacies like the Hudood Ordinance. Musharraf will be no better with his aid from america and abuses from Pakistan. What has he given us anyway except twisted and unrepresentative statistics which are supposed to be a great economy. A worthless fountain on the sea. Soaring sugar prices and of many other commodities. A big fat lie about the uniform. Increasing terrorist activity. Increasing redundany of public services like electricity, water and transport. If only you would remember much more and stop criticising who remember much more than you do. i do not say that the democracy we have experienced was exemplary but neither was the dictatorship. And adding to the analysis that we have had much more of the latter the only conclusion a sane person can make is give democracy a chance!

{ Nawaz was so drunk with power that he tried to kill the military general.}

And yahya was so drunk literally and with power that he gladly sacrificed more than half the country.

{ They forget the zamindars and the waderas and the jahil high school pass doodh walas who were sitting in the assemblies. they forget the idiots who were our finance ministers. }

Sir, if only someone will give us the chance to forget them. Who do you think are sitting in the assemblies under the great Musharraf ? Enlightened Moderates and righteous messiahs. It is the same bullshit all over again with a different package and with a much longer indefinite term in power. Mr. hasanmahmood the only reason why i support democracy is because atleast there is hope for improvement. Atleast there is hope that one day good leaders will come to power. If we adhere to the constitution atlest there is hope that people will stop raping it. Atleast there will be hope that someday its true spirit will be followed. With democracy and a constitution atleast we have hope. Withe military dictators we do not even have that. Because these generals will gladly piss on the whole country and will get to the assemblies anybody who is ready to lick their boots without giving a damn for the whole country. The situation of the people right now is evidence!!!! And please stop considering a graduate degree to be a mark of perfect knowledge. Many great politicians in the past have been just high school graduates and not even that for that matter. There is a reason why no superpower has ever been ruled by rocket scientists and there is a reason why plato`s philosopher king never got crowned.

What constituion Fareeha? The one that tells all the politicians to ignore the masses or the one which tells them that people WONT even need basic things, or the constitution that allowed Benazir and Nawaz to do what they wanted. Forget Pakistani constitution. It is more worthless that a prostitute`s word or for that matter this article. Spare us the Benazir/Nawaz rhetoric of how good democracy can be. I lived through those years and unlike you I dont have a bad memory.

Hey Hindus read this about your Bharat maa or whatever you call you iece of shit country http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/5125810.stm
Kaptain I totally agree with you. people sit here and tout the democracy horn while conveniently forgetting the wonderful years of Benazir and Nawaz when the country was on the brink of bankruptcy. They forget the mansions, the killings, the illegal accumulation of wealth. They forget that they had no voice in that so called democracy. Just because they hear parts of what the West is telling them they really think they know everything. They forget the zamindars and the waderas and the jahil high school pass doodh walas who were sitting in the assemblies. they forget the idiots who were our finance ministers. they forget the devastation that took place. People were tired of Zia and wanted demcracy. they got it but Benazir and Nawaz really took advantage of people`s fears. They kept accumulating wealth without anyone holding them responsible. On Benazir`s order 1200 men were either killed or heavily injured in Hyderabad. Nawaz was so drunk with power that he tried to kill the military general. When people open their mouths about democracy in Pakistn, remind them that democracy cannot work in Pakistan. The waderas, and zmindars, and industrialists will never let it prosper. Once again Pakistan will go towards bankruptcy and once again a general will come and people will come out on the streets to greet him and once again we will read stupid articles like these after 5 great years in which Pakistan will actually prosper. Why because people again will forget about benazir and nawaz and what they did and will again stupidly ask for DEMOCRACY....

Democracy is nothing but a gateway to make easy money in billions.The Surrey mansions.The Raiwind Palaces. The money in the Swiss banks.

For Lord`s Sake, when would you understand that democracy is nothing but a wheel of illiteracy which runs to feed the few rich politicians who are hell bent over to disintegrate.

Nawaz was opposed to Benazir and so was Benazir; when both had the rule. Now they are respected Brother and Sister. For what?? For you?? Or me??

To hell with constitution. All what is wanted is good and economic and standardised living for the common man with all basic amenities coming in at ground level prices.

With Democracy you vote for corruption and costly IPPs which are till today restricting establishment of Industries. Thanks to Zardari.

These politicians are nothing but pile of human waste given a human face. Mittal`s acquisition runs into some billions. These Political Morons could have thrown in more to have it under their belt. They have more than they count.
They don`t need to. They know they get their westernised and americanised dog food the easy way and more than what they would get from the acquisition of Arcelor.

To hell with Democracy..!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

``Just like the courses of these great rivers don`t meet, our histories, religions and traditions also don`t meet. ``

Actually the Hindu religion, tradition and history ranges from present day China to present day Afghanistan, crossing through the Ganges as well as the Indus. It is your Allah and Mohammad who are Arab citizens, and therefore foreigners in the land of Bharat.

``The subcontinent was just a conglomeration of independent families with their own heads and traditions. Our mother was the Indus Valley and it still is.``

Yeah, the Ganges is my mother, a Punjabi with family ties going back generations to the land of Punjab in the vicinity of Potohar. Whereas Indus is the mother of Jinnah and Liaqat, those who never came close to Indus till they took power based on a religion of Arab traditions. Akbar Ahmed may be able to sell that snake oil to Punjabi Mussulmaans, please don`t try the same with us.

``ncorrect, this is just another manufactured myth to protect Nehru`s hidden private life as a full blown faggot. Lord Mount-Bat- ten met Nehrujee when posted in Singapore, it was love at first sight for both, Lady Mountbatten was just the side dish used as a cover for these two closet gays.``

And the faggot Jinnah was hiding in the closet and jerking off. Heck it was the jealousy that made him mad and strive for Pakistan.

Paki ``civilization`` is based on the banks of denial...and I don`t mean the river in Egypt..

HE is a perfect example...he`s still in denial about the IT export figures..or the war in kargil..

His Excellency #70 {``Just like the courses of these great rivers don`t meet, our histories, religions and traditions also don`t meet. ``}

Whether they meet or not, the fact is that each of these rivers either originates in or traverses Indian territory - Indus, Chenab, Ravi, Jhelum, Sutlej, Beas, Ganga, Jumna. Yes all of them are Indian, except for one - the dirty and muddy Kabul River that joins the Indus in Pakistan.

#70 by HisExcellency

Harish, an Indian blaming Pakistan for creating the Kashmir problem in 1989 is no saner than a Pakistani claiming that India created the Bangladesh problem in 1970.

Yaar I didn`t blame Pakistan for creating the problem, just for turning the problem into a vicious and bloody one.

India losts its izzat the day it forced its Muslim citizens to sing the Vande Matram and bow before the statue of a certain politician Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi, who liked people to treat him like a god.

Are you talking through your hat? Can you please providence evidence to back your statements? Or is it something that you are taught in your text books? Who forced whom to sing the Vandemataram and when did Gandhi ask to be treated as god?

The provinces consituting Pakistan today were part of the Indus civilization that were forcibly occupied by the British in 19th century.

There you go again putting the usual spin on to India`s identity. Not that I care much.

Just like the courses of these great rivers don`t meet, our histories, religions and traditions also don`t meet.

Well, I`m glad the way it is and I`m sure a majority of Indians think like me. After all, I would hate to see Indians associated with terrorism and being subjected to inhuman cavity searches.

Amidst all this, you haven`t bothered to answer my question. I repeat it here:

Why are the ``non-puppet`` candidates in Azad Kashmir required to swear allegiance to Pakistan by signing an undertaking in the nomination form which states that he/she whole-heartedly supports the accession of J&K to Pakistan? Amanullah Khan of the JKLF was refused to contest elections because he refused to sign this undertaking.

sanatani #84, {``Saligram is another name for Bhagwan Shri Krishn and sir lamentably if Ishwar and Allah were one tab to koi fight he nahin thi. ``}

Sanatani bhai,
Then I am honored to be called Saligram. :) That`s right, God, Allah, Ishwar, Khuda, Yahveh, Elohim, and other nomenclatures are indicating the same Almighty Creator. Fight ki koi wajah nahin thi or nahin he. It`s like fighting over who has the best parents? Thanks

Aslam Bhai #85 {``salim i agree with you that biharis should be brought to pakistan, it`s despicable the way they`ve been treated by the ruling elite. compare this to uk`s offer to take 50000 mirpuris displaced by mangla dam.``}

Aslam Bhai,
Now we are getting somewhere. Several kind and compassionate people are coming out and supporting this worthwhile cause that is a blight on the flag of Pakistan and the meaning of Islam. Thank you and please bring this up in every forum that you join. May God bless you for your conscience. Ameen.

Aslam Bhai #85 {``salim i agree with you that biharis should be brought to pakistan, it`s despicable the way they`ve been treated by the ruling elite. compare this to uk`s offer to take 50000 mirpuris displaced by mangla dam.``}

Aslam Bhai,
Now we are getting somewhere. Several kind and compassionate people are coming out and supporting this worthwhile cause that is a blight on the flag of Pakistan and the meaning of Islam. Thank you and please bring this up in every forum that you join. May God bless you for your conscience. Ameen.

salim-chuhan and others
salim i agree with you that biharis should be brought to pakistan, it`s despicable the way they`ve been treated by the ruling elite. compare this to uk`s offer to take 50000 mirpuris displaced by mangla dam.

Re: # 64

Salim ji,

Saligram is another name for Bhagwan Shri Krishn and sir lamentably if Ishwar and Allah were one tab to koi fight he nahin thi.

Regards
Sanatani

P.S. maybe we wcould consider you as Salim only as we took Adnan Sami

hshahbaz #71 {``Mr. Salim Chauhan, i really do hope that one day you would overcome your insecurities as a Mohajir who still feels he does not belong to the country ...I know that the mohajir`s trust has been badly hurt by the punjabis which has been a big mistake but we all have to rise above this mistrust in order to survive.

Shahbaz Sahib,
Very sincere and extremely wise words. You and Mantolives Bhai are two of the extremely few Pakistani Punjabis who have expressed such compassion and goodwill. That is all that would have been necessary to reassure the Bengalis in 1971, the Mohajirs in 1973, 1986, 1989, 1990, and 1991 and the Baluchis in the 70s and even now. You have to be a real minority to understand the meaning of insecurity. When your own soldiers occupy your own city to shoot your people, it is bound to make any loyal citizen rather insecure and less loyal. Decent Pakistani Punjabis have never realized the hatred their soldiers are spreading all over Pakistan at their expense.

Even here on Chowk, we are hearing hateful words and profanity hurled by several Pakistani Punjabis at Mohajirs and some find it humorous to ridicule the misfortunes of the ``stranded`` Pakistanis in Bangladesh. Somehow, they think that by calling them ``Biharis,`` the problem is diminished as one afflicting a lower race of people. While we are on the topic of oppression, it`s about time that Punjabis did the right thing and repeal those stupid laws that discriminate against Ahmadis. They are your own, hard-working, Punjabis who have always been loyal Pakistanis and yes, good Muslims. By the way, I reiterate that I am neither Bihari nor an Ahmedi - certain Pakistani Punjabis have found it convenient to label me as such, again to somehow demean my stance. They feel that if you stand up for an issue, then you must have a dog in the race.

Lastly, Pakistani Punjabis need to understand Mohajirs` way of thinking. During the recent earthquake, the people of Karachi, mostly Mohajirs, outdid themselves in donating, collecting, and sending relief supplies to the earthquake-stricken areas. Very few Mohajirs have relatives or friends among the quake victims, but they were not propelled by any association other than humanitarian and Muslim, and yes, Pakistani. Isn`t it about time that Punjabis displayed some compassion for fellow Muslims and fellow Pakis and did the right thing in bringing home these unfortunate victims from Bangladesh? Nothing less will be enough to redeem our religion and our nation. Thanks.

#77 His Excellency {``And it taught us never to forget that we are Pakistanis and Muslims first... and Punjabis, Sindhis, Mohajirs and Baluchis later.``}

We can start by not forgetting to bring the 300,000 ``stranded`` Pakistani Muslims from BD. :)

#79, His Excellency {``Most Urdu-speaking refugees migrated to Karachi ``}

As pointed out by rf786 below in #78, the Urdu-speakers were not welcome in West Punjab. This fact has been detailed earlier on Chowk by another person who described how Mohajirs from Delhi and western UP were simply led by Punjabi authorities to waiting trains for Karachi. Only Punjabi-speaking East Punjabis were allowed to stay in Punjab en masse.

#77 His Excellency {``This is why we islamized our Army, fought the Russians alongside our Afghan brothers, built a nuclear bomb and shared power with MQM,``}

Sir, do you call the events of 1989, 1990, 1991 spearheaded by BB and NS ``sharing of power?`` I was a little kid then and to this day I am terrified with that ``power sharing.`` But, yes, it was A. Q. Khan, another Mohajir from Bhopal, who built the nuclear bomb for Pakistan. How many A. Q. Khans are living in misery in Bangladesh and how many will convert to Christianity or forced into prostitution to survive?

rf786 #78,
Thank you for correcting the chronology of events - some people forget how we got here.

#76 His Excellency {``Poor Biharis have waited 35 years already. They can wait another 10-15 years too. It is also in their interest to return when they`ll be welcomed with open arms.``}

Suppose you go to Bangladesh and give these people the good news that they can return to their country in 10-15 years, Inshallah. The reason for this additional delay is that Pakis are working diligently to give them a great economy with good jobs schools and healthcare when they arrive. Plus it will take that long just to train the marching band for the reception. I suppose Tahmed4, if he is still alive by then, will personally bestow garlands around the neck of each arriving Bihari. By that time there should be only 200,000 left. A man dying of thirst is not impressed by your claim that if he is patient for a few more weeks, he can drink from a golden cup that you have just sent an errand boy after.

rf786 #75, {``Incorrect, this is just another manufactured myth to protect Nehru`s hidden private life as a full blown faggot. Lord Mount-Bat- ten met Nehrujee when posted in Singapore, it was love at first sight for both, Lady Mountbatten was just the side dish used as a cover for these two closet gays. ``}

Now why don`t they teach this important stuff in schools? More importantly, if Jinnah had pictures on the two of them and didn`t use them for Pakistan`s benefits, I am going to be mad as hell. Just wait till I make my next trip to Karachi.

#74, His Excellency {``So in your opinion any Sindhi who opposes repatriation of Biharis is a terrorist??``}
No, but any Sindhi (or Punjabi for that matter) who opposes the repatriation of ``stranded`` Pakis in Bangladesh is not sincere, not compassionate, not a real Muslim, not a good Paki, and should be stripped and flooged in public with wet sawayyaaN until he learns how to be more humane, a better Muslim and a loyal Paki. When you flog Tahmed3, please make sure that the sawayyaaN are extra crispy.

#73, His Excellency {``I have a counter question: What has India gained from occupying Kashmir during the last 60 years? If suppressing Kashmiri Muslims makes India more secure and stable, then this policy should indeed be continued ad infinitum. But if this policy creates terrorism & communal strife (Gujrat, Babri mosque, Bombay riots) within India, then this policy must be revised in the larger interest of India.``}

Let me answer it from an Indian perspective. The legitimate ruler of the Princely State of Jammu and Kashmir, Maharaja Hari Singh, signed the instrument of accession to India. The rules of partition left this decision to each individual ruler with the provision that he take the wishes of his subjects into account. The Maharaja will say that he did exactly that.

Now, Kashmir is a very important part of India`s political existence. As the only Muslim majority state, it reinforces the concepts of diversity and democracy in India, and frankly, if successful, this approach nullifies the need for partition in 1947. A Muslim province, ruled by democratically-elected Muslim politicians, loyal to the Indian Union is a powerful message to the world and counters Pakistan`s existence to any impartial and logical mind.

The problems of Babri Masjid, Gujrat, and Bombay riots are not even remotely associated with Kashmir. However, they are definitely a legacy of the 1947 cruelty of partition. As I said in my post, bringing 5 million Kashmiri Muslims into Pakistan will still leave 115 million Muslims in India - not that anyone in Punjab or Sindh cares.

#72 His Excellency {``Indian Muslims will only suffer if Kashmir`s independence is achieved through the gun. A negotiated settlement, on the other hand, will satisfy the humanitarian problem of Kashmir, build a durable relationship between India and Pakistan, and harmonize the relationship between Hindus and Muslims.``}

I have a better suggestion. It`s called reunification. In one fell swoop we solve Kashmir, the Indus and tributaries` water problem (which after all is the main issue for Punjab and we should forget all this pro-Kashmiri Muslim crap, please), lack of democratic and secular institutions, and defense overspending.

``What has India gained from occupying Kashmir during the last 60 years? ``

Simple.....a free India rejects TNT.........

re: #78

++
Economic imbalance cud have been corrected by opening schools in poor localities, setting up businesses in the interior, diversifying the economy and not murdering it by nationalizing industries and banks
++

In hindsight, nationalization was a mistake. But it was a popular one. Zulfikar Ali Bhutto won a heavy mandate in West Pakistan from a socialist platform. And he wasn`t even Punjabi.

Schools create employable people, but not (enough) employment. For that you need infrastructure projects, which is what Pakistan did during the 1960s and 70s. Organizations like PTCL, WAPDA, PIA, Railways, OGDC, SGNPL, SGSPL, ADBP and Steel Mills were created during this era to create employment for both white collar and blue collar workers. Many Mohajirs got jobs through these organizations.

re: #78

FYI, Punjab was the breadbasket of British India. The British built the most extensive canal system in the world to produce wheat, rice and cotton not only for its troops but also the rest of India. In addition, there were dozens of stud farms (called Remount Depots) across upper Punjab that were used for training the horseback regiments of Police and military.

To manage the revenue from these enterprises, the British recruited thousands of landlords into the British Indian Army and made them tax collectors. This military-agriculture complex created enormous wealth not only for the British but also for the Legharis, Tiwanas, Noons, Daultanas and Sahibzadas who swore loyalty to the British. Although this wealth was concentrated in few hands, at the time of partition, there was enough to feed to the millions of refugees who poured into Lahore.

Most Urdu-speaking refugees migrated to Karachi not because Punjab didn`t have jobs... but because these jobs were agrarian, whereas the Urdu-speaking refugees sought white collar private sector and government jobs that only Karachi could offer. Very soon Karachi become overpopulated.

Re: # 76
HE
Some historical perspective please, APMSO came into being well after the Jeay Sindh, Pushtun Students (PSF), Baluch Students (BSF) and Punjabi students federation. All these student parties were active in Karachi educational institutions while the urdu speaking students wud congregate with JTI or the leftist/liberals. While the four provinces had their active ethnic political parties and were accepted by the major parties, urdu speaking boys and girls were marginalized to mainstream political parties. Not only did these ethnic parties support their kin, they openly differentiated against the urdu speaking population of karachi and hyderabad. Bhutto made it ever more easier to discriminate against the urdu speaking population by imposing quotas in universities and jobs and pursueing policies of disenfranchising mohajirs.

If Punjab was such a huge surplus economy, then why did all migrants come to karachi? Three reasons: Karachi had a small but diverse population, being the capital became the obvious choice for migrants and finally Punjab was unwilling to accept migrants. This economic story holds no water because Pakistan at the time of partition had no economy, everything started from the scratch and was helped in early days by the nawab of junagadh, Habib family and other rich Mohajir families.

Economic imbalance cud have been corrected by opening schools in poor localities, setting up businesses in the interior, diversifying the economy and not murdering it by nationalizing industries and banks. Fact is,such ideas reek of racial tensions and used to suppress minorities.

re: #63

++
Considering how much attention Paki Punjus pay to numbers, where was their sense of counting when they alienated 75 million Bengali Pakis in 1971?
++

1971 taught us a lot of things, including counting. It also taught us that nations with nuclear weapons don`t get invaded. And it taught us never to forget that we are Pakistanis and Muslims first... and Punjabis, Sindhis, Mohajirs and Baluchis later. This is why we islamized our Army, fought the Russians alongside our Afghan brothers, built a nuclear bomb and shared power with MQM, ANP, BNP and MMA when they won a clear majority at the polls.

re: #63

++
There are 15 million Mohajirs. Although they have the highest literacy rate in Pakistan and they account for a large chunk of the GDP, they will never equal in numbers the population of Sindhis
++

Agreed. However, the bone of contention between Sindhis and Mohajirs is not ethnicity. It is economics. In 1947, Punjab had a surplus economy so the millions of refugees who migrated to Punjab were absorbed in the Punjabi economy.

But Sindh always had a deficit economy with little agriculture. Most Mohajirs migrated to Pakistan in the 1950s for economic reasons. These immigrants were educated, urbanized and therefore preferred to settle in Karachi, the biggest city. As a result, the already weak economy of Sindh came under more pressure. Mohajirs dominated the bureaucracy and white collar jobs of Pakistan until the 1970s when Z.A.Bhutto redressed the economic imbalance between Sindhis and Mohajirs with a quota system. This led to unemployment, prejudice, urban crime and the APMSO.

As the economy gathers pace, there will be plenty of jobs and resources for both Sindhis and Mohajirs. That will transform the Sindhi-Mohajir relationship from a competitive one to a cooperative one. When that happens, Sindhis will not feel threatened by the influx of 30,000 biharis and MQM will not try to gain political mileage from this influx either.

Poor Biharis have waited 35 years already. They can wait another 10-15 years too. It is also in their interest to return when they`ll be welcomed with open arms.

Unlike Kashmir, this is a humanitarian problem that can be solved through dialogue and economic growth.

Re: # 68

{I must come to the defense of the late Mr. Jawaharlal Nehru, formerly of Allahabad and Kashmir. Mr. Nehru, while proven to have banged Edwina Mountbatten, among many others, never had any intimate relations with Lord Louis - other than sharing a Cuban with the King`s cousin now and then}

Incorrect, this is just another manufactured myth to protect Nehru`s hidden private life as a full blown faggot. Lord Mount-Bat- ten met Nehrujee when posted in Singapore, it was love at first sight for both, Lady Mountbatten was just the side dish used as a cover for these two closet gays.

re: #63

++
As for requesting extremists to soften their views, why don`t you request Al Kayda and the Tally Ban if they would consider softening their views (and actions)?
++

So in your opinion any Sindhi who opposes repatriation of Biharis is a terrorist??

re: #63

I have a counter question: What has India gained from occupying Kashmir during the last 60 years? If suppressing Kashmiri Muslims makes India more secure and stable, then this policy should indeed be continued ad infinitum. But if this policy creates terrorism & communal strife (Gujrat, Babri mosque, Bombay riots) within India, then this policy must be revised in the larger interest of India.

re: #63

Indian Muslims will only suffer if Kashmir`s independence is achieved through the gun. A negotiated settlement, on the other hand, will satisfy the humanitarian problem of Kashmir, build a durable relationship between India and Pakistan, and harmonize the relationship between Hindus and Muslims.

Two of the three parties to this conflict are today ready for a negotiated settlement. It is the third party which has stead fastly refused to settle this issue through dialogue. So your question should be posed to New Delhi. After all, it is their troops who are patrolling the streets, lakes, forests, highways, valleys, mosques, schools and bazaars of Kashmir.

Mr. Salim Chauhan, i really do hope that one day you would overcome your insecurities as a Mohajir who still feels he does not belong to the country he was born in( which of course i assume). If only we could move on from our own social problems and face other problems (like these indians on these forums blatantly abusing pakistan while we fight). I know that the mohajir`s trust has been badly hurt by the punjabis which has been a big mistake but we all have to rise above this mistrust in order to survive.

Before i go, i will just add: hats off to akpower for showing the mirror to these indians who would bow before the racist gandhi but die before accepting that what jinnah did was a direct consequence of the stubborn congress who left no choice for jinnah, a die-hard nationalist to give up his idealism and look at the reality, which meant to accept atleast the ``moth-eaten Pakistan`` than rather burn in Gujarat.

re: #harish_hyd

Harish, an Indian blaming Pakistan for creating the Kashmir problem in 1989 is no saner than a Pakistani claiming that India created the Bangladesh problem in 1970.

A mother that treats some of its children as second-class citizens, does not deserve to be respected. India losts its izzat the day it forced its Muslim citizens to sing the Vande Matram and bow before the statue of a certain politician Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi, who liked people to treat him like a god.

So what you really call `mother India` is a myth, an artificial entity created by the British during the 18th and 19th centuries. The provinces consituting Pakistan today were part of the Indus civilization that were forcibly occupied by the British in 19th century.

Save that mother allegory for your `nickerwallah` brethren. The subcontinent was just a conglomeration of independent families with their own heads and traditions. Our mother was the Indus Valley and it still is. Your mother is the Ganges valley. Just like the courses of these great rivers don`t meet, our histories, religions and traditions also don`t meet.

#67 by akpower on June 23, 2006 10:29am PT


from site to site and forum to forum to bash Pakistan or Pakistanis


That`s right...People who ``bash`` Pakiland by posting news articles are why the world looks at Pakis as terrorists...
If weren`t for these ``bashing`` Indians, Pakis wouldn`t be singled out for ``special`` treatment when they landed at western airports..a whole bunch of pakis, from california to virginia to maryland to georgia to canada to the UK to australia, wouln`t be busted for terrorism...


the power of Indians to influence reality by posting on a web message board continues to amaze me...

#67 akpower {``Mr. Nehru had intimate relations with Lord Mountbatten``}

Sir Power,
I don`t want to butt in during your public discourse with bjk, a fine Indian friend of Chowk. Nevertheless, I must come to the defense of the late Mr. Jawaharlal Nehru, formerly of Allahabad and Kashmir. Mr. Nehru, while proven to have banged Edwina Mountbatten, among many others, never had any intimate relations with Lord Louis - other than sharing a Cuban with the King`s cousin now and then. This is OK because the cigar smoking preceded Bill Clinton and Monica Lewnisky by at least half a century. On the other hand, the intimate meeting between Lord Louis and Hazrat Janab Mohtaram Quaid-e-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah Sahib Rahmatullahalaih must have been quite interesting. How can one explain an otherwise brilliant yet elderly man agreeing to the ``bag of goods,`` the proverbial ``Brooklyn Bridge,`` that Mountbatten sold him and he called a ``moth-eaten Pakistan?``

Re: # 52

BJK, I feel I know you. Are you not one of those pathetic indians that go from site to site and forum to forum to bash Pakistan or Pakistanis?? Yeah i think i guessed it right, your one of those pathetic, lifeless and misrebale individuals who have still come to terms with the India/Pakistan divide 59 yrs ago. Or maybe it is the fact that Ur Mahatmi Gandhi was considered toothless and a liar by some of your own people?? Or could it be that another one of your leaders Mr. Nehru had intimate relations with Lord Mountbatten. I`m not sure what it is, bu the frustrations truly run deep!

It eats you from within and I truly hope someday it drives you insane. There are quite a few of you here on Chowk who will poison every sensible discussion. I would never care to reply to jerks like you, but I felt enough was enough and I had to do just this one time!

Hamidm2 #51 {``salim mian,
.......... i think you are being totally ridiculous about this punjabi thing .... heck most punjabis don`t even speak punjabi once they get an eighth grade education .......... it is a dying breed and nobody seems to care ......``}

Hamidm Sahib,
Will they hurry it up, please?

Seriously, if nobody cares, the message did not get through to Mullah Tahmed4, Ali1, and Atif2 - all numerically-suffixed Paki Punjus gloating over their racist, prejudiced, and shameless bigotry while proclaiming superiority of Punjuhood.

hshahbaz #61

Shahbaz Sahib,
Thank you for your decent and sincere post. In principle, I agree with your desire to have a democratic Pakistan. How we get there is the issue. As far as Mushy is concerned, I am under no delusions concerning his sense of morality or justice. After all, he is a product of the Paki Army - an institution that has never won a war outside its borders and has lost one or two within. I prefer Mushy over the Sindhi/Punju ``democratic`` politicians for the simple fact that, being a Mohajir, somehow restrains him from committing the blatant massacres perpetrated by his predecessors. It`s akin to the Jewish overseers at Nazi concentration camps - they were slightly less cruel than the real animals.

As I mentioned before, democracy is the solution - provided that the prerequisites be in place for its permanence and effectiveness. I had stated some suggestions (dividing up the four provinces into 12 or more, English as official national language, secular state, repeal of anti-Ahmadi nonsense, and repatriation of ``stranded`` Pakis from BD). Thanks for listening.

Contray to common Punju propaganda on Chowk, I am neither Ahmadi nor Bihari and do not have any relatives or friends in these communities. My passion for their suffering is based solely on morality, decency, and the fact that the same could happen to people like me.

Sanatani #62, {````Paki Mohajir general`` is like Holy Roman Empire not Holy, not at all Roman much less an Empire. ``}

Sanatani,
That is funny LOL. Thank you for suggesting some excellent names for my use. I kind of like the Saligram one - before I change, what does it mean?

By the way, is your name ``sanatani`` somehow pertaining to ``Suntan?`` Jai Shree Ram, Khuda aap ko khush rakhey, mere bhai. Allah Ishwar ek hi naam - I mean it.

His Excellency #45 {``If Punjabis support repatriation, Sindhis will hate them for imposing their will and turning Sindhis into a minority in their own province. If Punjabis don`t support repatriation, some Mohajirs will hate them for not letting them increase their votebank.

Punjabis will get the flak either way. But opposing repatriation with draw less flak because there are more Sindhis than Mohajirs :)``}

#47 {``So repatriation of 1 million Biharis is more important than providing jobs to 35 million Sindhis? I thought you were a logical person.
...Until then, why don`t you think about convincing the Sindhis and Khatam-e-Rasaalat Committee to soften its position on repatriation and Anti-Ahmediyya laws??``}

Your Excellency,
Thank you for answering my long-suffering question. You are the first Paki Punjabi to provide a real answer - I appreciate your decency and honesty in this matter. Also, thank you for putting the response in such clear metrics. I am pleased to note that Paki Punjus can count and also tell wind direction. As long as morality, decency, legality, and the right thing to do are expressed in numbers, let me indulge in some numerology myself:

There are 15 million Mohajirs. Although they have the highest literacy rate in Pakistan and they account for a large chunk of the GDP, they will never equal in numbers the population of Sindhis - thanks to the latter`s productive use of polygamy. Repatriation of 300,000 ``stranded`` Urdu-speaking Muslim Pakis from BD will not alter that balance. Yes, there are now only approximately 300,000 stranded Pakis there, instead of the 1 million you stated. Perhaps the embarrassingly high infant mortality rate among Sindhis may undo what you guys want to avoid. Maybe your emphasis is on the wrong approach.

Many Mohajirs don`t give a damn about Kashmir. Why would we want to add another 5 million or so to the numbers of our tormentors and create another group of ``sons of the soil - pisser-e-zameen?`` Also, if miraculously (over Arjun`s dead body), if Kashmir ever did become part of Pakistan, the Muslims of India, many of them being the Mohajirs` relatives, would have to pay the price with riots, massacres, rapes, looting, and arson. Please be logical. Is the facade of independence for 5 million Kashmiri Muslims worth the lives and safety of 115 million plus Indian Muslims? It`s a game of numbers, isn`t it?

Considering how much attention Paki Punjus pay to numbers, where was their sense of counting when they alienated 75 million Bengali Pakis in 1971? Also, why did Maha Punju dictator, Zia-ul-Haq, admit 3 million Afghan refugees that destroyed the fabric of a nation of 130 million? Somehow, I think that the Paki Punju sense of numerology and logic is quite subjective and not all that metric as you would have us believe. Thanks for your honesty, anyway.

As for requesting extremists to soften their views, why don`t you request Al Kayda and the Tally Ban if they would consider softening their views (and actions)?

Re: # 26

Saligram er sorry, Shatrughan er sorry, Shankar er sorry, Sahejendra er sorry, Salim Chauhan writes ``Gen. Aslam Baig, a Paki Mohajir general``.

``Paki Mohajir general`` is like Holy Roman Empire not Holy, not at all Roman much less an Empire.

Regards
Sanatani

Shailendra Singh Chauhan Ghar Vapsi Kariye. Jai Shree Ram

Mr. Salim Chauhan, why don`t you understand that if a person supports democracy that does not mean in anyway that he necessarily supports any of the existing parties. I am not trying to prove that NS and BB were saints or something, i am saying that the only way democracy can be improved is by democracy only. Is it not true that Musharraf will readily team up with any of the two if they agree to his terms. Is it also not true that Musharraf is working with the same corrupt politicians who solidified Nawaz`s rule. Why is it that only Nawaz gets the blame. Each and every supporter of mushy is the same who vehemently supported Nawaz`s curroption. Plus, how much is Musharraf doing about the Biharis??? nothing as far as i know. Probably even you would be abusing him tommorow if MQM goes out of the govt. and riots become abundant in khi once again because mushy is not going to give a rat`s ass for the karachites as long as he is in power.

With these comments i should make clear that i in no way support khi bashing, it is only that throught the true establishment of democracy can we achieve the aims u outlined. and not by partial democracy which only runs for a few years and then a general comes in again donning a saviour`s suit. democracy should be given a chance!!!!!

#59
[On a side note, Art Buchwald has been in a hospice for some time and may conk out soon. Your dialogues appear largely influenced by his style. How about your taking over .. i.e. if you have a longer shelf-life ...:) ]

Ama yaar, for old H₂ to seamlessly step into those shoes - the name would have to be
Art Buck-waas.

#51 by hamidm2

.......... it is a dying breed and nobody seems to care ......

It`s a real shame. It appears Punjabis only switched to Urdu post-partition in a desire for an identity seperate and distinct from their East Punjab counterpart, as well as Urdu being the national language and all that necessary to compete in services etc..

Is there any other reason?

On a side note, Art Buchwald has been in a hospice for some time and may conk out soon. Your dialogues appear largely influenced by his style. How about your taking over .. i.e. if you have a longer shelf-life ...:)

#57 by majumdar

Kalam can`t be a momin, he has to start carpet bombing Waziristan and Wana at the behest of the Americans before he can call himself a momin.

Any Muslim who doesn`t act in accordance with Paki perceptions of a given situation (however far from reality it be), he isn`t a Momeen.

Harishbhai/HE sahib

(Either he isn`t a momin... or he doesn`t like to pray for the Kashmiris and Gujrati Muslims who are suffering because of his country`s army or the party that made him President. )

Kalam can`t be a momin, he has to start carpet bombing Waziristan and Wana at the behest of the Americans before he can call himself a momin.

Regards

#55 by harish_hyd

Amanullah Khan of the JKLF was refused to contest elections because he refused to sign this undertaking.

should read:

Amanullah Khan of the JKLF was not allowed to contest elections because he refused to sign this undertaking.

#46 by HisExcellency

New Delhi installed puppet govts in Kashmir from day one... and crushed even political demands with military force.

So tell us why are the ``non-puppet`` candidates in Azad Kashmir required to swear allegiance to Pakistan by signing an undertaking in the nomination form which states that he/she whole-heartedly supports the accession of J&K to Pakistan? Amanullah Khan of the JKLF was refused to contest elections because he refused to sign this undertaking.

#38 by HisExcellency

Either he isn`t a momin... or he doesn`t like to pray for the Kashmiris and Gujrati Muslims who are suffering because of his country`s army or the party that made him President.

Your knowledge of India`s polity is as good as your knowledge of anything else, which is pathetic. The BJP didn`t elect the President. It only proposed his name. It is upto the electoral college which comprises of state legislature members and the Parliament that elects him. Usually, Presidents are elected unanimously and in the case of Abdul Kalam, it was overwhelmingly unanimous. Kalam is the slap in the Paki face. A Muslim who spearheaded India`s missile development program and a Muslim President when all along, Pakis were taught that Hindus discriminated against Muslims.

Again, going by your logic, if the Indian Army oppresses Kashmiris, why didn`t it do that before 1989 when Pakistan started training and arming terrorists? And why is there such a huge turnout of voters (sometimes it exceeds that of other states in India) whenever there is an election. Mind you, these elections are not the referendum-type when Mushy declared he had 97% endorsement. There were international observers deployed throughout the state.

And Gujarati Muslims are suffering because of the Indian Army? There you go again displaying your utter lack of knowledge. The Gujarat riots started to abate only after the Army took over from the local police. Sometimes it pays to read neutral newspapers.

Re: # 26

Salim Chauhan writes ``may I suggest that Pakistan reunify with really democratic India and stop this tinkering with pseudo-democratic facades``.

Shri Chauhan we dont want you back till you people do Shuddhi and become Hindu. (Take your pick Sahejendra, Saligram, Shatrughan, Shiv, Shankar, Shatrujit ... you get the point)

Also take the large majority (no all) of your cousins here with you. Then you will become a majority and then you can give the Punjabi Mussalmans the boot and make them Muhajirs (by sending them to Afghan aapne yeh to nahin socha we would take them in Sri Bharat Varsha). Though I have my doubts whether Afghan would take them.

You have an obsession for the Biharis in BDesh, my obsession is similar the Hindus in Pak and BDesh (I yearn for the day there would be a law that would give evry Hindu, Sikh, Budh and Jain the right of return to India from these nations). But sir there is a difference the Hindus have tried their best to adapt to the circumstances and accepted that under Islam they will at best be 2nd class citizens. But let us look at the conduct of the Biharis? Or let us not would be too painful for you.

Regards and Sympathies (You could also express the same to me)
Sanatani

#50 by HisExcellency

[I only fire arguments. There you would have to face bullets fired by Kashmiri Muslims.]

Ummah yaar, the problems with your lot is you think that (1) Kashmiri Muslims are one block of humanity just waiting in unison to cross over to the land of the Pure (2) they carry a disproportionate number of arms – or are better fighters than those who are on the Indian side.

Both of these assumptions are false. Clearly, Kashmiris are either not very enthusiastic about the idea, or are too lazy, or incompetent to fight – or you guys won’t be sending in foreign fighters!

Those “respectable” Pakistanis who look the other way and are not vocal about these slimey tactics are the scum of the earth (Guys like you are not the scum, of course! There is no need to insult the same object!) – and the main reason why that country finds itself in the pits that it is in today.

And all the lipstick on the pig of Islamic terrorism being waged by Pakistan in Kashmir will be wasted lipstick. The world sees it for what it is – but more important, Indians of all sections and sects see it for what it is!

I don’t hold any particular community in Pakistan (e.g., Punjabis) responsible for this current sorry state of affairs – the chicanery, the lack of balls to face the truth, and the lack of courage to make a bold new start by admitting the wrongs of the past in an open manner.

I think it is the mindset!

The mindset that was perhaps latent well beforehand but got incurably reinforced by that first Islamic terrorist of the subcontinent – that haraami Jinnah – your “father”!

Guess what, dear “children” of Jinnah – your “father” committed rape to create you! And he raped his own “mother” – the one that gave him birth and sustenance!

That makes all of you – yes, ALL of you Jinnah lovers – illegitimate offspring of your rapist “father”!

It is only natural that you try to avenge this dishonor – by killing the weaker sections of your society!

It is the Pakistani way!

Because it is the Jinnah way!

salim mian,

.......... i think you are being totally ridiculous about this punjabi thing .... heck most punjabis don`t even speak punjabi once they get an eighth grade education .......... it is a dying breed and nobody seems to care ......

re: #49

Try this chest thumping in Srinagar... I only fire arguments. There you would have to face bullets fired by Kashmiri Muslims.

#46 by HisExcellency on June 22, 2006 3:03pm PT


Kashmiri Muslims are the majority in their state.


non-Kashmiri Indians are a majority in India and if they say Indian Kahmir is part of India, there ain`t anything you can do about it..

reality...you should try it sometime..

re: #43

The APHC`s refusal to talk to Manmohan Singh without Pakistan proves that Pakistan enjoys the confidence of Kashmiris despite the repatriation (non)issue. Clearly, your fears about this issue damaging Pakistan`s Kashmir cause are unfounded.

re: #43

So repatriation of 1 million Biharis is more important than providing jobs to 35 million Sindhis? I thought you were a logical person.

Let`s talk about present issues, instead of past ones. Let`s also talk about issues that affect most Pakistanis, instead of a small minority. Repatriation and Anti-Ahmediyya laws are non issues for the vast majority of Pakistanis. This might change in 10 years when income levels and literacy rates improve more.

Until then, why don`t you think about convincing the Sindhis and Khatam-e-Rasaalat Committee to soften its position on repatriation and Anti-Ahmediyya laws??

re: #44

Why would Kashmiri Muslims want freedom from India when they are already governing Kashmir

New Delhi installed puppet govts in Kashmir from day one... and crushed even political demands with military force. The Kashmir freedom struggle is an ideological one linked to the Two Nation Theory. Kashmiri Muslims are the majority in their state. This majority has been denied the right of self-determination.

Here is the contrast...

Mohajirs are a minority in Sindh. Ever since they formed a political party and won elections, they have been running the government of Karachi. They have been running KMC, the largest metropolitan corporation in Pakistan. Yet instead of creating employment for Mohajir youth, the MQM recruited killers like Fahim Commando in the KMC. When fellow Mohajirs objected, the MQM turned its guns on them.

This is because the MQM is not an ideological party. It has no ideology except to protect the Mohajirs. The injustices it seeks to address occurred 20-30 years ago. But Mohajirs have moved on. They are now part and parcel of Pakistani society whereas MQM is still living in the past.

Mohajirs are losing faith in MQM. Not in Pakistan.

re: #41

If Punjabis support repatriation, Sindhis will hate them for imposing their will and turning Sindhis into a minority in their own province. If Punjabis don`t support repatriation, some Mohajirs will hate them for not letting them increase their votebank.

Punjabis will get the flak either way. But opposing repatriation with draw less flak because there are more Sindhis than Mohajirs :)

HisExcellency #42 {``Why would Mohajirs lose loyalty to Pakistan when they are already governing Pakistan? There are Mohajir generals, Mohajir governors, Mohajir ministers and Mohajir bureaucrats... ``}

Your Excellency,
Here we go again. Let me just go back to my Indian example and you will immediately note the senseless nature of that statement.

Why would Kashmiri Muslims want freedom from India when they are already governing Kashmir - democratically may I add? There are Kashmiri Muslim general, Kashmiri Muslim governors, Kashmiri Muslim ministrs, and Kashmiri Muslim bureaucrats.

Your Excellency #42,

The repatriation of ``stranded`` Pakis is one of the two most embarrassing, harmful, and pernicious issues affecting Pakistan`s image and position. The other one is the ``legalized`` persecution and oppression of the Ahmedis.

How can Pakistan claim to be for the ``freedom`` of Kashmiri Muslims when it refuses to acknowledge its own Muslim citizens ``stranded`` in Bangladesh?

How can Pakistan appear to be sincere about the suffering of Palestinians, when it cannot alleviate the suffering of its own citizens ``stranded`` in Bangladesh?

Am I the only one who can see the ridiculous position that Pakistan has put itself into? Are our Paki Punju citizens so mired in hatred of Mohajirs that they can`t see the harm being done to Pakistan?

re: #36

Why would Mohajirs lose loyalty to Pakistan when they are already governing Pakistan? There are Mohajir generals, Mohajir governors, Mohajir ministers and Mohajir bureaucrats... There are Mohajirs who vote for MQM... and Mohajirs who vote against him. There are Mohajirs who live in Karachi... and there are Mohajirs who have settled in Lahore.

You are painting them as a monolithic community (which they are not) and a suppressed minority (which they once were, 20 years ago).

#40, HisExcellency {``Repatriated Biharis will probably settle in Sindh, so why would the Punjabis object? ... If you can convince your Sindhi brethren (if you are prepared to accept them as such), then Punjabis, Pashtuns and Balochis will also support you.

Will Mumtaz Bhutto, Rasool Bux Palijo and Dr. Qadir Magsi agree to repatriation? Isn`t it reasonable to build consensus first? ``}

Your Excellency,
Here we go again, Paki Punjus playing good copy/bad cop. Yes, pass the problem off to the Sindhis and then wash your hands off. Good strategy, that is exactly why I am picking on the Punjabis - the real culprits and the real power in Pakistan. Just consider the opposition right here on Chowk - mostly Paki Punjus, led by Tahmed2, passionately resisting any mention of the ``stranded`` Pakis.

Also, why should the right of Pakis to return to their own country become a matter of consensus for other Pakis? Maybe, they should realize reality and forget about the whole mess. A number of them have converted to Christianity and may easily obtain visas to emigrate to the West. Then we Pakis will have another motivated group to hate Pakistan - joining the Ahmedis, the Baluchis, and Gilgitis, along with the Mohajirs.

re: #36

Repatriated Biharis will probably settle in Sindh, so why would the Punjabis object? Even if they chose to settle in Punjab, the Punjabi economy can absorb them. If you can convince your Sindhi brethren (if you are prepared to accept them as such), then Punjabis, Pashtuns and Balochis will also support you.

Will Mumtaz Bhutto, Rasool Bux Palijo and Dr. Qadir Magsi agree to repatriation? Isn`t it reasonable to build consensus first?

#37, HisExcellency {``Altaf killed more fellow Karachiites and Mohajirs than any fauji or Punjabi``}

Your Excellency,
Why do so many Paki Punjus use this tactic of stating some fault of others to justify or minimize their unacceptable actions? I have said before that just because Muslims kill five babies in comparison to Christians killing ten babies, it doesn`t make Islam twice as good as Christianity.

Now, please respond to the point I raised in my post #36 - and don`t post another problem as a response to the problem I presented. Thanks.

re: #33

``By the way, the President of India is a momin``

Either he isn`t a momin... or he doesn`t like to pray for the Kashmiris and Gujrati Muslims who are suffering because of his country`s army or the party that made him President.

re: #33

Altaf killed more fellow Karachiites and Mohajirs than any fauji or Punjabi. Faujis and Punjabis only use soccer grounds for wedding parties, but Altaf uses them as torture cells. Ever heard of Khajji ground, Azeem Ahmed Tariq & Hakeem Saeed?

#32 HisExcellency {``or Punjabis aren`t as prejudiced toward Mohajirs as you think.``}

Your Excellency,

I try to be a logical person. Here is my problem. By refusing to repatriate the ``stranded`` Pakis in BD, the Paki Panjabis are sending a very clear and strong message to the Mohajirs of Karachi. Since the Paki Punjabis have no real quarrel with the ``stranded`` Pakis in BD(or ``Biharis`` as they prefer to call them and thus degrade them in some strangely racist manner), it is obvious that there is only one reason for the Paki Punjabis` stiff resistance to the repatriation. The Paki Punjabis do not want to add to the numbers of Mohajirs living in Pakistan. And, since this is type of thinking is behind the Government of Pakistan`s policy on the matter, how can any Mohajir feel loyalty toward a country that wants to keep its type of people out at all costs? I hope you understand why Mohajirs are rapidly losing their loyalty to Pakistan and how Paki Punjabis are quickly becoming the most hated people in Pakistan. Thanks for listening.

#34, When Benazir and Nawaz talked about roti, petrol, makaan, and kapra, they meant these things and more for themselves and their relatives - as far away as Surrey. :)

Uniform and constitution are issues for the pseudo-intellectuals. The common man is interested in roti, petrol, makaan and kapra. Sure Benazir and Nawaz talked about these things too. But Mushy actually has a working strategy...

Kuwait to setup $1.2 billion refinery at Port Qasim
June 20, 2006

UAE company (Emaar) to invest $20.4 billion in Pakistan`s real estate sector
June 1, 2006

UAE`s telecom giant Etisalat wins PTCL bidding with $2.6 billion bid
June 19, 2005

#32, Mushy is a Mohajir who does almost all of Punjab`s bidding except slaughtering of his fellow Karachiites.
By the way, the President of India is a momin. Does that make India an Islamic Repulbic? Either he isn`t Muslim ... or Indians aren`t as prejudiced toward Muslims as Pakis think. :)

re: #31

It was the Punjab Assembly that passed the resolution to allow Musharraf to hold two offices. Mushy`s power base is the Punjab. So either he isn`t Mohajir... or Punjabis aren`t as prejudiced toward Mohajirs as you think.

Where were all these aspirants of ``democratic`` rule when President General Zia was in power for 11 years? Where were the anger, the lament, and concern for the constitution of Pakistan? Does the fact that Zia was a Punjabi general and Mushy is a Mohajir general interrupt the craving lust for ``democracy`` among our Paki Punjabi hypocrites?

hasanmahmood #28 and #29 {``Because we still have people like mr Shahbaz here who will probably go out and vote for either the Oxford dropout (because here faher for some reason is considered a shaheed in Pakistan - what a pity) or mian sahib (because he is from Lahore yaar)``}


Hasan Sahib,
I apologize for irritating you with my lengthy response to Mr. Shahbaz. Having said that, let me compliment you on your accuracy regarding the perception of ``democracy`` in Pakistan. Thanks.

Re # 14

``I feel that the author has spoken a much needed truth and rather than complaining about the minor mistakes in the govt. has identified the responsible source, the President
is through an established democracy and civilian rule.``

Ms. Choudary,
now you know why democracy will never work in Pakistan. Because we still have people like mr Shahbaz here who will probably go out and vote for either the Oxford dropout (because here faher for some reason is considered a shaheed in Pakistan - what a pity) or mian sahib (because he is from Lahore yaar)

``Is he the only one in this land of fourteen million people who has an IQ high enough to understand the intricacies of the problems we face?``

Actually with the number of people still wanting Benazir and Nawaz, maybe he is the only one with a high IQ because those people certainly are not very smart....

``Why this supreme arrogance of assuming that the masses have no brains and cannot tell right from wrong and thus like errant children need to be told what is best for them? If given democracy in its truest form, even if the masses are not fully enlightened and in all likelihood get swayed by passionate rhetoric, still, how long will they keep voting the wrong people into power?``

Seeing our history people of Pakistan will never learn - mainly because in cities they are emotionally involved with these parties and in villages the fuedal lords will never let them vote for a change.


Do you know why he can do what he is doing - because the previous corrupt politicians never did anything for this country so people would still rather have him than the Oxford dropout or mian sahib and their cronies. Do you really think it will be any different if any of them come into power. It will be worse....


AND SHAHBAZ AND SALIM PLEASE DONT BE LIKE THOSE PAKISTANIS WHO ARE IN EVERY GET TOGETHER AND PARTIES. IF YOU WANNA WRITE AN ARTICLE WHILE INTERACTING THEN POST YOU ARTICLE SOMEWHERE ELSE. DONT START SHOWING YOUR GREAT WRITING SKILLS IN THE INTERACTION. NOONE WANTS TO READ ANOTHER LONG POST OF ASININE STUFF.

#25 by FARAZ-AHMED on June 22, 2006 5:18am PT


media is independant and free


Sure...it`s free...depends on how you define free, of course..

hshahbaz #14, {``Mr. Saleem Chauhan you have certainly enlightened us with many problems that face us before elections, democracy and civilian rule but may I ask you who exactly will fulfill these demands. Mr. President, maybe, who has nothing more important to do than to hang on to power ( or his uniform). ``}

Shahbaz Sahib,
May I ask you who is going to facilitate the implementation of ``democracy`` under the old, failed, and unfair rules? The same person - yes, Mr. President, the general. If I am told correctly, it was another Mohajir general, Mirza Aslam Baig, who conducted the last transition to ``democracy.`` This was one of the two or three times in Pakistan`s history when a government in power allowed a new government to take over without the benefit of a war, a defeat, riots, or a coup.

{``Sir, please first read the article which clearly states that democracy evolves through mistakes and you cannot abolish democracy for the reason that one or two leaders were a failure. Sir, USA did not put aside democracy after the Watergate scandal. ``}

Again Mr. Shabaz,
I read the article and found it to be a rather lengthy rehash of the same old arguments for the restoration of ``democracy`` or ``legalized looting.`` A few mistakes here and there may be acceptable, but now come on - even baseball, that most boring of human interactions, has a ``three strikes and you are out`` rule. Democracy is not a recent invention that needs to be refined through a trial and error ordeal. United India, from which Pakistan was painfully extracted, started as a democracy and has matured into a viable nation without resorting to gimmicks that are intended to ensure the hegemony of one selfish province. If democracy is paramount, may I suggest that Pakistan reunify with really democratic India and stop this tinkering with pseudo-democratic facades. Why must Pakis insist in ``discovering`` a vaccine against polio when there are other diseases such as AIDS that really need a cure?


{``Although I might disagree with some of your points I do agree with them on the whole and the only way they will ever be implemented is through an established democracy and civilian rule. ``}

Sir, let me guess. The point that you disagree with me is the repatriation of ``stranded`` Pakis in Bangladesh. Obviously, you too must be from Punjab. No need to defend yourself, Mr. Tahmed3 has already performed a passionate display of racism, hatred, provincialism, while totally ridiculing his pretensions of being Muslim in the process.

{``As far the Punjabi part goes you seem to be a much more biased man against Punjab than the author is against any region. How do you propose to control an even further divided Pakistan while already the provinces are being kept together through the barrel of the military’s gun? I feel that the author has spoken a much needed truth and rather than complaining about the minor mistakes in the govt. has identified the responsible source, the President. ``}

Shabash, Mr. Shahbaz,
There you go again. While defending the author`s attempt to guarantee Punjabi hegemony over the rest of Pakistan, you are accusing me of being biased. Sir, from its inception, Pakistan has been plagued by Punjabi designs to ensure their ascendancy. Let`s look at some of the ridiculous yet effective means by which Punjabis have skirted around democracy. In United India, where Hindus had the majority, one man one vote was not good enough - parity was needed. In the former united Pakistan, where Bengalis were a slight majority, one man one vote was not good enough - parity was established, even using the stupid idea of ``One Unit.`` After losing East Pakistan by ignoring the results of an election, the Punjabis now want to install ``democracy,`` based on one man one vote. Please use some common sense. The first time you make fools out of us, shame on you. The second and third times you do that, shame on us. The people of Karachi are not going to sit idly by while you Punjabis once again use ``democracy`` to install corrupt regimes and use the Paki Army to slaughter our people and loot our city.

As for general and democracy, let me give you a history lesson. George Washington, a general, helped to create and foster what is called American democracy. Kemal Ataturk, another military genius, forcefully brought democracy to Turkey. Gen. Aslam Baig, a Paki Mohajir general, restored democracy to the nation. Unfortunately, the Benazir and Nawaz ``democratic`` governments alternated in their grotesque looting of Pakistan. Mushy might not be the brightest or the best, but can we really afford another round with these corrupt ``sons and daughters of the soil?`` Perhaps, your issue and the author`s lament are driven by the fact that Mushy is a Mohajir?