M Asadi July 5, 2006
#65 Posted by ahmedmadani on July 8, 2006 7:42:31 pm
Re: # 64
Thank you Mr. M Asadi. I hope if they can study specially``www.asadi.org on the socioeconomic analysis of development and international conflict.``
It is very good.One does not have to agree with your every point but there is trasure from Islamic point of view. I very much liked the picture on your book. Picture tells more than hundred words. Specially that man comin out of fire or light is very heartening and inspiring. Sir, Your thoughts are powerful as they are true. First these retards and semiretards tried to ignore you but you kept in writing and making comments they did not like and could no stomach as they are secular and liberal, I will not not be surprised these morons will start supporting Yoga and oppose to easting on dead bodies and advance vegeterian and other fads. People like you need to lead in developing real ethos instead all are going against islam will their wife and mother father and grandfather to get blessings from technical devoid humanist socieries like eveil white but smater people like USA, england etc.. There is all slavery all around. All leaders are slaves. Today 80% of people of pakistan supports BB and NS and MQM chief and King Urdu hearts are all sitting at mercy of white british monarch and they can not come to country to meet their peopel and its tragedy. They live at mercy of White people. While Ruler genral presidento is willing slave of white american president. Slavery has gone deep in our blood of DNA. All go to have blessings from white chief. Dark colored lady from USA say we should have fair elections and presidents say we will have. BB,NS,MQM all depend on usa and britain while Atta Ullah mengal A. Bugti have started civil war in B.stan. Every day afghan indian raw agents paying to blow uo railtrack, gas line and electric pole and create terrorist activities and they are talking on phone to ameriac and NYT . America is helping BLA and not ready to declare as terror organization. Can they be supplying bombs and stuff keep general uneasy and they may even lead indirectly suppot to partition of BStan . as only 2 million dollars per month can keep pakistani army full with their hands. Things are disintegrating and all army is getting thin stretched on easter borders and spirit of support to FF ( freedom fighter) is going drain. It happennde same way. B.Stan can have permantat tension as in sindh between MQM and Sindhis. Pathan Balochi division can lead to problems. I think your thoughts if people can lead to realization what is ``Really`` happening. I read and studied your writings, and I found its powerful document. But secular liberal will hate as they want to have friendship with india and have just chance to watch movies and visit boliwood rathae than lolywood. This is tragedy our cultured is completely surrounded by eastern neighbour and other hand Jungli afghans wants to stab back at proper time to broke Durand line which they feel is amercan and british tool and pakistan as hany tool of war machinary of usa.
I will eagarly read your writings.
Please they are today rediculing. ( before neglecting, then criticizing) but soon they will copy you and claim as their thoughts and line. It is normal progression of philosopher and his thought. As socrates said depending on wife one can become happy or Philosophers. I support your thoughts as you are passing through wromg thoughts and slavery as hot knife passes passes through soft butter and cut in peaces like panzers divisions advanced destroying enemies with swift and brilliant and out flanking thse mental retards. Please keep on ass they are reduculing next phase is immitating. Good night every body and good luck in surviving in these exciting days when KSE is gyrating like drunk nach girl. But I think one should not sell, short sell at this time, patience will reward. It all patiece nd patiencwe what counts. Waiting for opportunity to buy and sell. good luck.
Thank you Mr. M Asadi. I hope if they can study specially``www.asadi.org on the socioeconomic analysis of development and international conflict.``
It is very good.One does not have to agree with your every point but there is trasure from Islamic point of view. I very much liked the picture on your book. Picture tells more than hundred words. Specially that man comin out of fire or light is very heartening and inspiring. Sir, Your thoughts are powerful as they are true. First these retards and semiretards tried to ignore you but you kept in writing and making comments they did not like and could no stomach as they are secular and liberal, I will not not be surprised these morons will start supporting Yoga and oppose to easting on dead bodies and advance vegeterian and other fads. People like you need to lead in developing real ethos instead all are going against islam will their wife and mother father and grandfather to get blessings from technical devoid humanist socieries like eveil white but smater people like USA, england etc.. There is all slavery all around. All leaders are slaves. Today 80% of people of pakistan supports BB and NS and MQM chief and King Urdu hearts are all sitting at mercy of white british monarch and they can not come to country to meet their peopel and its tragedy. They live at mercy of White people. While Ruler genral presidento is willing slave of white american president. Slavery has gone deep in our blood of DNA. All go to have blessings from white chief. Dark colored lady from USA say we should have fair elections and presidents say we will have. BB,NS,MQM all depend on usa and britain while Atta Ullah mengal A. Bugti have started civil war in B.stan. Every day afghan indian raw agents paying to blow uo railtrack, gas line and electric pole and create terrorist activities and they are talking on phone to ameriac and NYT . America is helping BLA and not ready to declare as terror organization. Can they be supplying bombs and stuff keep general uneasy and they may even lead indirectly suppot to partition of BStan . as only 2 million dollars per month can keep pakistani army full with their hands. Things are disintegrating and all army is getting thin stretched on easter borders and spirit of support to FF ( freedom fighter) is going drain. It happennde same way. B.Stan can have permantat tension as in sindh between MQM and Sindhis. Pathan Balochi division can lead to problems. I think your thoughts if people can lead to realization what is ``Really`` happening. I read and studied your writings, and I found its powerful document. But secular liberal will hate as they want to have friendship with india and have just chance to watch movies and visit boliwood rathae than lolywood. This is tragedy our cultured is completely surrounded by eastern neighbour and other hand Jungli afghans wants to stab back at proper time to broke Durand line which they feel is amercan and british tool and pakistan as hany tool of war machinary of usa.
I will eagarly read your writings.
Please they are today rediculing. ( before neglecting, then criticizing) but soon they will copy you and claim as their thoughts and line. It is normal progression of philosopher and his thought. As socrates said depending on wife one can become happy or Philosophers. I support your thoughts as you are passing through wromg thoughts and slavery as hot knife passes passes through soft butter and cut in peaces like panzers divisions advanced destroying enemies with swift and brilliant and out flanking thse mental retards. Please keep on ass they are reduculing next phase is immitating. Good night every body and good luck in surviving in these exciting days when KSE is gyrating like drunk nach girl. But I think one should not sell, short sell at this time, patience will reward. It all patiece nd patiencwe what counts. Waiting for opportunity to buy and sell. good luck.
#66 Posted by ballukhan on July 8, 2006 8:58:04 pm
Re: # 65
``Instead of critic M.Asadi why you dont look at his site ``www.asadi.org on the socioeconomic analysis of development and international conflict.``
A propaganda site with no substance but hot air and arm chair theorizing .......... Mr. Madani I did not know that you supported theories and theses which do not have any empiricial studies to substantiate itself..........not to talk about peer reviews.........
``Instead of critic M.Asadi why you dont look at his site ``www.asadi.org on the socioeconomic analysis of development and international conflict.``
A propaganda site with no substance but hot air and arm chair theorizing .......... Mr. Madani I did not know that you supported theories and theses which do not have any empiricial studies to substantiate itself..........not to talk about peer reviews.........
#67 Posted by ballukhan on July 8, 2006 9:11:29 pm
`` There is all slavery all around. All leaders are slaves. Today 80% of people of pakistan supports BB and NS and MQM chief and King Urdu hearts are all sitting at mercy of white british monarch and they can not come to country to meet their peopel and its tragedy.
``
Madani Saheb I hope you are taking your medicines properly! Tell us Dear Sir, you abuse BB or NS and the entire created machinery as if that is not a part of your society? Is Musharaff and his army not a part of your ``slavish`` land that you so dislike? All dependence on the west that you see is self imposed which was consciously done after purifying oneself in the fabled and self created pure land called ``Pakistan``! And every third world needs the technolgy of the christian and jewish west because your brown babus are not capable of any change because it is all ``bidda``..........
Miyan apne girebaan mein jhaaank kar dekho...........do some introspection and find why are you at a political and social mess that you are in now!!! See how YOU have contributed to the mess by participating in it..........you have supported the Islamists and that includes the SUPPORT to charlatans like Masadi and his propaganda website which spreads propaganda about a state of affairs that is neither ``Rational`` nor ``Real``......... Please take your medication seriously ...........
with regards,
``
Madani Saheb I hope you are taking your medicines properly! Tell us Dear Sir, you abuse BB or NS and the entire created machinery as if that is not a part of your society? Is Musharaff and his army not a part of your ``slavish`` land that you so dislike? All dependence on the west that you see is self imposed which was consciously done after purifying oneself in the fabled and self created pure land called ``Pakistan``! And every third world needs the technolgy of the christian and jewish west because your brown babus are not capable of any change because it is all ``bidda``..........
Miyan apne girebaan mein jhaaank kar dekho...........do some introspection and find why are you at a political and social mess that you are in now!!! See how YOU have contributed to the mess by participating in it..........you have supported the Islamists and that includes the SUPPORT to charlatans like Masadi and his propaganda website which spreads propaganda about a state of affairs that is neither ``Rational`` nor ``Real``......... Please take your medication seriously ...........
with regards,
#68 Posted by ferozk on July 8, 2006 11:11:03 pm
Re: masdi # 52
The point is a simple one. Even though, I agree with your general hypothesis of the US dominating the economic levers of Muslim lands, I disagree with you on one of point.
US economic dominance of Muslim lands was made possible by Muslims themselves. Muslims are not as weak as they think or wish to be; afterall, these same nations, whom you say are exploited were able to unify and force the oil crisis upon the west in the 1970s.
If there was a will to say ``no`` to the US and west in 1970s, where is that will now and today?
The point is that Arab and Muslims rulers can resist the US and West, if they wish and their failure to do so, has nothing to do with the US or the West`s exloitive policies as you have suggested.
As to your statement that US-West keeps illegal rulers in power, who oppress their own people, it is no longer true. Ten or even five years ago, this would be a true statement but not after 9-11. There is a growing, though barely noticed, opinion in the west that its was the West`s own policies, which radicalized the Muslims. It due to this, that west is pushing for more democracy in the Arab and Muslim (non-Middle East region) world. This process of bringing freedom and democratic rights are resisted by Arab and Muslim governments, with the active support of the Islamic clergy in those nations.
Ciao
The point is a simple one. Even though, I agree with your general hypothesis of the US dominating the economic levers of Muslim lands, I disagree with you on one of point.
US economic dominance of Muslim lands was made possible by Muslims themselves. Muslims are not as weak as they think or wish to be; afterall, these same nations, whom you say are exploited were able to unify and force the oil crisis upon the west in the 1970s.
If there was a will to say ``no`` to the US and west in 1970s, where is that will now and today?
The point is that Arab and Muslims rulers can resist the US and West, if they wish and their failure to do so, has nothing to do with the US or the West`s exloitive policies as you have suggested.
As to your statement that US-West keeps illegal rulers in power, who oppress their own people, it is no longer true. Ten or even five years ago, this would be a true statement but not after 9-11. There is a growing, though barely noticed, opinion in the west that its was the West`s own policies, which radicalized the Muslims. It due to this, that west is pushing for more democracy in the Arab and Muslim (non-Middle East region) world. This process of bringing freedom and democratic rights are resisted by Arab and Muslim governments, with the active support of the Islamic clergy in those nations.
Ciao
#69 Posted by ballukhan on July 9, 2006 3:11:17 am
Re: # 68
US had no interest in what nonsense social or political sructure these ``Islamic`` lands in the Middle East followed..............US was only interested in having a regime that supported their financial and oil interests..............Infact, US did not interfere to DECIDE upon the fate of tehse ``Islamic`` lands............it was their Elites who decided whether these lands should be ``Islamic`` and it suited their interests because it helped them create slavish Ummah which followed the dictat from the Ulemas subservient to the Sheikhs.........US only helped these Islamic Elites consolidate tehir power because it served their interests............that does not mean these Elites take orders from US.....that thesis is BS!!!
US had no interest in what nonsense social or political sructure these ``Islamic`` lands in the Middle East followed..............US was only interested in having a regime that supported their financial and oil interests..............Infact, US did not interfere to DECIDE upon the fate of tehse ``Islamic`` lands............it was their Elites who decided whether these lands should be ``Islamic`` and it suited their interests because it helped them create slavish Ummah which followed the dictat from the Ulemas subservient to the Sheikhs.........US only helped these Islamic Elites consolidate tehir power because it served their interests............that does not mean these Elites take orders from US.....that thesis is BS!!!
#70 Posted by ballukhan on July 9, 2006 3:23:17 am
Re: # 68
``There is a growing, though barely noticed, opinion in the west that its was the West`s own policies, which radicalized the Muslims. ``
Not correct formulation..........the west now recognizes the fascistic tendencies of these ``Islamic`` countries and they cannot ignore them anymore since they become important in the world economy.........since their belligerent and confrontationalist attitude is affecting their oil interests..........west has to force social and political engineering in these countries to ensure there is no deleterious effect on their economy.............so it becomes more of a matter of self interest than any thing else.......West does not care whather these ``Islamic`` countries enslave their women or stone them for whatever reasons.............but now the evil of political Islam is affecting their economic interests and they have been forced to look into these issues.........certainly for the good of the modern world.........
``There is a growing, though barely noticed, opinion in the west that its was the West`s own policies, which radicalized the Muslims. ``
Not correct formulation..........the west now recognizes the fascistic tendencies of these ``Islamic`` countries and they cannot ignore them anymore since they become important in the world economy.........since their belligerent and confrontationalist attitude is affecting their oil interests..........west has to force social and political engineering in these countries to ensure there is no deleterious effect on their economy.............so it becomes more of a matter of self interest than any thing else.......West does not care whather these ``Islamic`` countries enslave their women or stone them for whatever reasons.............but now the evil of political Islam is affecting their economic interests and they have been forced to look into these issues.........certainly for the good of the modern world.........
#71 Posted by bjk on July 9, 2006 9:21:40 am
If anybody gives me any more advice about how ``wrong`` war is because it is being practiced against Muslims, I may have to throw up!
An eyewitness account of stoning – the fine art that does not bother the holier than thou darlings of Jinnah!
From (http://www.liddyshow.us/liddyfile35.php)
….
A deep hole is dug in the ground. A 30 year old lady, tied up from feet to shoulders, as a stick, is lowered alive into this hole, in a standing position. Only her neck and head are visible. …
When the order is given, a man throws a fist-sized stone at her protruding head. The stone hits her head with a thud. She screems in pain as the blood oozes down her face. Another man picks up a stone and scraps the side of her head drawing a lateral line of blood. She cries and screems in excruciating pain. Since it is a free for all, a teenage spectator from this open playing field, tries his luck, but misses her head completely. Another aims at her and flings it with force. The stone hits its intended target, her forehead.
She screems and cries loudly for mercy. There is now a gash on her forehead. Blood spurting out, down her eyes, nose, cheeks, mouth and down to the ground. She cries out for mercy but to not avail. The minutes become an hour, between the many misses, scraps, nicks, chips and strikes. Another spectator flings forcefully at her.
The stone hits the bridge of her nose with another thud. She screems again and again. This time the blood comes down from inside and outside her nose. Probably, her nasal bridge-bone is broken, causing the bleeding from inside her nostrils as well. Though her wounds are grave, as you can imagine, her screems by now are not as vociferous as earlier, and her tears help to wash some of the blood on her cheeks. Her vision has completely gone with the blood coating.The next stone hits her again. A piece of flesh pops out. No, its not, oh god, it really can`t be her eye-ball. It is so bloody that you cann`t really make out. By this time, blood has covered her entire face and the ground in front of her.She still makes groaning sounds. More time pass. Stoning her, continues. Her sounds are less and less audible. Her face has become unrecognisable. Flesh, like mashed meat is her face, but only more bloody, as she now literally has no human face. Small strips of flesh, like locks of hair are hanging from her. Her head is now droopping forward. At this stage a hit on her make splashes of blood. She has stopped making a sound for the last two stone pelting. Two hours have passed. The Islamic authorities check her neck for pulse. It is still beating but barely, due to the loss of blood. A flesh piece drops off her head, as the stoning process continues.
Finally,death comes to this lady. She is then left there for a few more hours for the spectators to see, because this is a public lesson for all muslim females, who commit adultery.Then her father and relatives are allowed to dig her body, and bring it above ground. Pieces of her flesh, lying on the ground, is collected and because she has no face, it is put back on the front of her head, and bundled up. Now readers, imagine that is your mother, or your daughter, or sister, or even you, yourself.
DNA is not accepted in Islam, but at least 4 witnesses of reputable character, should give testimony of the actual penetration of the sexual intercourse to convict him. You might ask, who has sexual intercourse in front of 4 witnesses? I can also ask you ``how can you consider 4 men watching others` sexual intercourse, as reputable characters?``.But, there is no question or denying that this is not a traditonal, customary, cultural or a kangaroo court, but a legal Islamic court, with legal Islamic judges and legal expert Islamic officials, in the muslim state of Bakori ( Nigeria), of the legal Government, democratically elected by the Muslim citizens of this state. These are the undeniable authentic facts, which no amount of words or actions can ever repudiate.
Hear the deafening silence of the 1 billion Muslims worldwide, who are in a vigorous fit of inactivity, calmly pretending not to know. But, the balance 5/6th of the world, (1.5 billion Christians, 1.1 billion Taoists, 1 billion Hindus, 700 million Bhuddists and others) can do something to stop this barbarism of the middle-east.
#73 Posted by ahmedmadani on July 9, 2006 10:59:25 am
Re: # 71
I feel ashamed of what is going on.
Hope you have left unsaid.
Can world bodies prosecute people and rulers who allow such practices? Can our human rights men and women who have all worked on little things have testicular fortitude to say anything. I am ordinary man with limited intelligece. It is not lack of intelligence or knowledge or resources but collapse of morality.
It is sad of believers they work up on little things like cartoons. They can not do any thing they know that. A society or civilision is useless and impotent which does not do little that they can do and do not do big things as they are difficult and does nothing big or small. some time cruelity becomes norm and affects every body. I always felt in fact never went out at Id times when people buture animals. May be I am different but many have told me same things. The way the animals are butured with festivity surrouned by people. Its heart breaking. It is sick thing ang nobody bothers, city is is bloody with slaughtered animals.
For this I do not like ``Moderates`` as they are worst type hypocrite people. They walk around life supporting ideas which are good at same time allowing things to go as they are.
Little tinkering are not going help. Hope there is large body of young men and women who have courage and faith to bypass and set trail blazing new path. I have come to conclusion the moderates will led and help fanatics by conceding always and never telling to stop wrong things. Moderates will never ask to stop barbaric ways but justify those and suggest ``moderare`` changes. They are for evolution but that is slow and all will be dead before in improvement.
We suffer in personal life due this fanatic things.
What is dangerous is most men and women who go to usa etc instead of becoming cultured ( I do not say liberal as it has no meaning left and fanatics even call themselves liberal). they are becoming moderate. They go around but still give justification for oppressive social and religigous customs. Then they produce children who get involved in terrorist type thinking and take frustration on women. I have met many our young women( who return to Karachi for vacation) who are frustrated by their husbands bad behaviour. Like they drink beer and alcohol do zina sex but beat their daughters even at hint of of their daughter talking to unbelivers. Fortunately many have inferority complex and habit of putting in fingures in nose while talking so whitew women keep away from them. They are hypocrite as they encourage thier male hare to have white women friends as that kalu will feel better if if get milkwhite child but will not allow dauhter to do same. As ``moderate`` thinks daughter is property like cow or goat and he knows better. Some daughter they give them lesson by running away with american dark Muslim person and they he can not do any thing. It just all sickening haveing all moderates. Like president is moderate and under his watch moderation goes. I do not know what will happen with moderates on judgement day? They will burn eeternally in hellfire.
I think many leftist if the hold their fire on usa and give attention internally can help lot as that is something they can do. But left suffers from intelluctual impotency from 1970s and they do not want to do more than seminar, then lunch and tea attend rallies march against usa but quite on home front. I think instead of working on usa domination etc if prople like prof. Msadi work on real things in islamic world which are more oppressive than usa domination can get better results. As otherwise lefts consderable intellect and energy is wasted on firing duds as USA does not give damn to lrflist barrages.
This world is not for women at least in Islamic world. Premchand said 80 years ago `` story of woman breasts full of milk and eyes full of tear``. It appears our eastern and south women folk are slowly but surely coming of stone ages and still we are glorifying stone age and killing women for things like sexual discretions while men can go on boasting about such things.``
Hope things impoove.
I feel ashamed of what is going on.
Hope you have left unsaid.
Can world bodies prosecute people and rulers who allow such practices? Can our human rights men and women who have all worked on little things have testicular fortitude to say anything. I am ordinary man with limited intelligece. It is not lack of intelligence or knowledge or resources but collapse of morality.
It is sad of believers they work up on little things like cartoons. They can not do any thing they know that. A society or civilision is useless and impotent which does not do little that they can do and do not do big things as they are difficult and does nothing big or small. some time cruelity becomes norm and affects every body. I always felt in fact never went out at Id times when people buture animals. May be I am different but many have told me same things. The way the animals are butured with festivity surrouned by people. Its heart breaking. It is sick thing ang nobody bothers, city is is bloody with slaughtered animals.
For this I do not like ``Moderates`` as they are worst type hypocrite people. They walk around life supporting ideas which are good at same time allowing things to go as they are.
Little tinkering are not going help. Hope there is large body of young men and women who have courage and faith to bypass and set trail blazing new path. I have come to conclusion the moderates will led and help fanatics by conceding always and never telling to stop wrong things. Moderates will never ask to stop barbaric ways but justify those and suggest ``moderare`` changes. They are for evolution but that is slow and all will be dead before in improvement.
We suffer in personal life due this fanatic things.
What is dangerous is most men and women who go to usa etc instead of becoming cultured ( I do not say liberal as it has no meaning left and fanatics even call themselves liberal). they are becoming moderate. They go around but still give justification for oppressive social and religigous customs. Then they produce children who get involved in terrorist type thinking and take frustration on women. I have met many our young women( who return to Karachi for vacation) who are frustrated by their husbands bad behaviour. Like they drink beer and alcohol do zina sex but beat their daughters even at hint of of their daughter talking to unbelivers. Fortunately many have inferority complex and habit of putting in fingures in nose while talking so whitew women keep away from them. They are hypocrite as they encourage thier male hare to have white women friends as that kalu will feel better if if get milkwhite child but will not allow dauhter to do same. As ``moderate`` thinks daughter is property like cow or goat and he knows better. Some daughter they give them lesson by running away with american dark Muslim person and they he can not do any thing. It just all sickening haveing all moderates. Like president is moderate and under his watch moderation goes. I do not know what will happen with moderates on judgement day? They will burn eeternally in hellfire.
I think many leftist if the hold their fire on usa and give attention internally can help lot as that is something they can do. But left suffers from intelluctual impotency from 1970s and they do not want to do more than seminar, then lunch and tea attend rallies march against usa but quite on home front. I think instead of working on usa domination etc if prople like prof. Msadi work on real things in islamic world which are more oppressive than usa domination can get better results. As otherwise lefts consderable intellect and energy is wasted on firing duds as USA does not give damn to lrflist barrages.
This world is not for women at least in Islamic world. Premchand said 80 years ago `` story of woman breasts full of milk and eyes full of tear``. It appears our eastern and south women folk are slowly but surely coming of stone ages and still we are glorifying stone age and killing women for things like sexual discretions while men can go on boasting about such things.``
Hope things impoove.
#74 Posted by ahmedmadani on July 9, 2006 11:06:27 am
Re: # 72
Sir life is not compartmental, its related what is going in world.
I have respect for you and I read your comment and learn ot from them. Good night every body.
Sir life is not compartmental, its related what is going in world.
I have respect for you and I read your comment and learn ot from them. Good night every body.
#75 Posted by Behram1 on July 9, 2006 12:07:57 pm
Dear Masadi:
It appears that the following article is quite appropriate in this forum. Some of your power elite questions are being answered by this writer.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2088-2261812,00.html
No offence, imam, but we must call it Islamic terror
Michael Portillo
After the terrorist outrages of July 7, 2005, most Londoners have continued to travel by bus, train and Underground. They are more vigilant, but few seem to experience anxiety about a repeat attack during their journey. That is remarkable because objectively the chances of another massacre must be higher than a year ago.
Last year the bombs were the first shock. The second was to discover that the terrorists were suicide bombers and British. We could have coped with the outrage more easily had the murderers been foreigners, raised in squalor, brainwashed under a theocratic dictatorship and shipped here to massacre people for whom they had no kindred feelings.
It is more plausible that we could defend the country against an exterior threat than defeat one that comes from within. We can hope to monitor comings and goings at our airports and to keep tabs on people who stand out because they are visitors. But the task is almost hopeless if the perpetrators live among us. If four young men who had enjoyed the advantages of life in Britain decide to kill themselves and as many others as possible, then why should there not be 400 or 4,000 more?
Once we understand that, we feel less safe. Also, things have got worse over the past year. Although there has been no anti-Islamic backlash it seems that many British Muslims feel victimised by the authorities’ response to terror. They think they face discrimination when stopped and searched. The bungled police operation in Forest Gate has become an emblem of supposed repression.
Even peace-loving Muslim spokesmen feel obliged to give credence to the perception that their community is being unfairly harassed. It causes some young Muslim men to withdraw further from a British society claimed to be hostile. At best that surrounds the terrorists with a penumbra of disaffected Muslims who may not condemn their crimes or denounce their murderous plots. At worst it enlarges the pool from which new bombers can be recruited.
It is there that Al-Qaeda has scored its greatest success. More significant for the long term than the bombs is the impact that terror has in dividing the groups that make up our society, and in increasing the appeal of militancy to those who can be duped into seeing themselves as repressed.
Muslim complaints about being victimised are perversely directed. Muslims are victims of the bombers, not of the state or the police. It is the terrorists who make Muslims potential objects of suspicion and fear because the bombers murder in the name of Islam. Muslims have every right to be outraged, but their fury should focus on the men of violence. The police action in Forest Gate was cack-handed and the shooting of one of the “suspects” was indefensible. But given the profile of the terrorists, Muslims are bound to be more affected. By analogy, when police are looking for a rapist they interview males without anyone believing them to be institutional men haters.
There are those who in the interests of community relations denounce linking the word Islamic to “violence” or “extremism”. They object that we did not call the IRA “Catholic terrorists”, nor do we speak of “Christian extremism” or link Christian fundamentalism to violence.
There are good reasons for that. Although the IRA is rooted in the Catholic community, its aims are political and secular. Although there certainly are Christian extremists today, just now they are not murdering people in the name of purifying the world. By contrast, across the globe human beings are being slaughtered in large numbers by Muslims quoting from the Koran and vowing death to infidels, including other Muslim sects. Their objectives are political and religious.
So to try to condemn the expression “Islamic violence” is a dangerous attempt at censorship that would hamper our understanding of the threat we face. The term is certainly offensive to Muslims, but the offence is caused by the bombers, not by those who describe the process.
Last week Tony Blair caused a furore by calling on Muslims to do more to control, denounce or deliver up the men who preach and practise violence. Some Muslim spokesmen said that was a divisive remark that stigmatised Muslims instead of recognising that the problem was one for British society as a whole.
The prime minister’s exhortation was valid. The bombers are not casualties of British society. Shehzad Tanweer, the Aldgate murderer, was only 22 yet left £121,000 after tax. The bombers’ grievances cannot be bought off with more money for schools or a new youth centre. They were corrupted, I assume, by theoreticians of annihilation from within their community. Their training was probably perfected in an Al-Qaeda camp in Pakistan.
Abdur-Raheem Green is an imam who believes that he preached to some of the 7/7 murderers and hopes that nothing he said encouraged them. When asked last week whether he would turn over to the authorities young men who were moving towards terrorism, his answer was ambiguous. He argued that it would be better for him to dissuade them rather than denounce them because that would risk creating further alienation. That is not the response that Blair, speaking for most Britons, is seeking.
There is another disagreeable ambiguity when some spokesmen link terror to British foreign policy. Anas Altikriti, the director of the Islam Expo (now taking place at Alexandra Palace in north London), wrote last week: “We will not stand for our country and people being terrorised nor will we stand for our government terrorising any other peoples.” That is presumably a reference to Iraq and Afghanistan. What does “will not stand for” mean?
Even Dr Taj Hargey, chairman of the Muslim Educational Centre of Oxford, a brave opponent of the fundamentalists who argues that the Koran does not authorise violence, calls on Britain to reappraise its foreign policy. In many Muslim minds, apparently, terrorism in Britain has to be understood (even if not condoned) as a reaction to Afghanistan and Iraq.
The chronology undermines that argument. The allied invasion of Afghanistan was a response to the terrorist murder of nearly 3,000 civilians in New York and Washington. No serious figure denies that Al-Qaeda organised the crime from its bases in Taliban-controlled Afghanistan.
Iraq is a more controversial case. It has become a mess. But relatively few Iraqis died when we invaded and overthrew their genocidal dictator. The vast majority of Muslims who have been killed since have been murdered by other Muslims — by Al-Qaeda, by Sunni and Shi’ite extremists or by Saddam Hussein loyalists. Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the late Al-Qaeda leader in Iraq and a Sunni, urged death to Shi’ites whom he described as poisonous snakes and atheists. Al-Qaeda is determined to destroy the West, but in the short term most of its victims will be Muslims in any place where it can topple their government to replace it with a regime as repressive and homicidal as the Taliban’s was.
Many British people object to Blair’s foreign policy. But only Muslim suicide bombers claim it as a justification for murder. In Tanweer’s videotape released last week he links his crime to Afghanistan and Iraq. But just in case anyone is tempted to think that Britain could avoid terrorism by withdrawing from those countries, Tanweer also calls on us to end our military and financial links with America and Israel. The United States was attacked in 2001 not because it had invaded another country (except to save Muslim lives in Bosnia), but because it is rampantly secular and supports Israel’s right to exist.
If the drifting apart of the Muslim and non-Muslim communities in Britain has increased the danger of terror, it follows that reconciliation and integration would make us safer. I do not mean what I write here to exacerbate the divisions in any way. Rather I believe that we can move closer if we are more honest about what is happening. Mayhem is being unleashed globally in the name of Islam. There is no point denying it, especially since most of those butchered have been Muslim. The British state is not the problem but part of the solution. A tolerant society can survive only if it bands together to suppress intolerance because we are all victims of that intolerance.
Every Briton must join in that effort, no ifs, no buts and no excuses.
Respectfully submitted,
It appears that the following article is quite appropriate in this forum. Some of your power elite questions are being answered by this writer.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2088-2261812,00.html
No offence, imam, but we must call it Islamic terror
Michael Portillo
After the terrorist outrages of July 7, 2005, most Londoners have continued to travel by bus, train and Underground. They are more vigilant, but few seem to experience anxiety about a repeat attack during their journey. That is remarkable because objectively the chances of another massacre must be higher than a year ago.
Last year the bombs were the first shock. The second was to discover that the terrorists were suicide bombers and British. We could have coped with the outrage more easily had the murderers been foreigners, raised in squalor, brainwashed under a theocratic dictatorship and shipped here to massacre people for whom they had no kindred feelings.
It is more plausible that we could defend the country against an exterior threat than defeat one that comes from within. We can hope to monitor comings and goings at our airports and to keep tabs on people who stand out because they are visitors. But the task is almost hopeless if the perpetrators live among us. If four young men who had enjoyed the advantages of life in Britain decide to kill themselves and as many others as possible, then why should there not be 400 or 4,000 more?
Once we understand that, we feel less safe. Also, things have got worse over the past year. Although there has been no anti-Islamic backlash it seems that many British Muslims feel victimised by the authorities’ response to terror. They think they face discrimination when stopped and searched. The bungled police operation in Forest Gate has become an emblem of supposed repression.
Even peace-loving Muslim spokesmen feel obliged to give credence to the perception that their community is being unfairly harassed. It causes some young Muslim men to withdraw further from a British society claimed to be hostile. At best that surrounds the terrorists with a penumbra of disaffected Muslims who may not condemn their crimes or denounce their murderous plots. At worst it enlarges the pool from which new bombers can be recruited.
It is there that Al-Qaeda has scored its greatest success. More significant for the long term than the bombs is the impact that terror has in dividing the groups that make up our society, and in increasing the appeal of militancy to those who can be duped into seeing themselves as repressed.
Muslim complaints about being victimised are perversely directed. Muslims are victims of the bombers, not of the state or the police. It is the terrorists who make Muslims potential objects of suspicion and fear because the bombers murder in the name of Islam. Muslims have every right to be outraged, but their fury should focus on the men of violence. The police action in Forest Gate was cack-handed and the shooting of one of the “suspects” was indefensible. But given the profile of the terrorists, Muslims are bound to be more affected. By analogy, when police are looking for a rapist they interview males without anyone believing them to be institutional men haters.
There are those who in the interests of community relations denounce linking the word Islamic to “violence” or “extremism”. They object that we did not call the IRA “Catholic terrorists”, nor do we speak of “Christian extremism” or link Christian fundamentalism to violence.
There are good reasons for that. Although the IRA is rooted in the Catholic community, its aims are political and secular. Although there certainly are Christian extremists today, just now they are not murdering people in the name of purifying the world. By contrast, across the globe human beings are being slaughtered in large numbers by Muslims quoting from the Koran and vowing death to infidels, including other Muslim sects. Their objectives are political and religious.
So to try to condemn the expression “Islamic violence” is a dangerous attempt at censorship that would hamper our understanding of the threat we face. The term is certainly offensive to Muslims, but the offence is caused by the bombers, not by those who describe the process.
Last week Tony Blair caused a furore by calling on Muslims to do more to control, denounce or deliver up the men who preach and practise violence. Some Muslim spokesmen said that was a divisive remark that stigmatised Muslims instead of recognising that the problem was one for British society as a whole.
The prime minister’s exhortation was valid. The bombers are not casualties of British society. Shehzad Tanweer, the Aldgate murderer, was only 22 yet left £121,000 after tax. The bombers’ grievances cannot be bought off with more money for schools or a new youth centre. They were corrupted, I assume, by theoreticians of annihilation from within their community. Their training was probably perfected in an Al-Qaeda camp in Pakistan.
Abdur-Raheem Green is an imam who believes that he preached to some of the 7/7 murderers and hopes that nothing he said encouraged them. When asked last week whether he would turn over to the authorities young men who were moving towards terrorism, his answer was ambiguous. He argued that it would be better for him to dissuade them rather than denounce them because that would risk creating further alienation. That is not the response that Blair, speaking for most Britons, is seeking.
There is another disagreeable ambiguity when some spokesmen link terror to British foreign policy. Anas Altikriti, the director of the Islam Expo (now taking place at Alexandra Palace in north London), wrote last week: “We will not stand for our country and people being terrorised nor will we stand for our government terrorising any other peoples.” That is presumably a reference to Iraq and Afghanistan. What does “will not stand for” mean?
Even Dr Taj Hargey, chairman of the Muslim Educational Centre of Oxford, a brave opponent of the fundamentalists who argues that the Koran does not authorise violence, calls on Britain to reappraise its foreign policy. In many Muslim minds, apparently, terrorism in Britain has to be understood (even if not condoned) as a reaction to Afghanistan and Iraq.
The chronology undermines that argument. The allied invasion of Afghanistan was a response to the terrorist murder of nearly 3,000 civilians in New York and Washington. No serious figure denies that Al-Qaeda organised the crime from its bases in Taliban-controlled Afghanistan.
Iraq is a more controversial case. It has become a mess. But relatively few Iraqis died when we invaded and overthrew their genocidal dictator. The vast majority of Muslims who have been killed since have been murdered by other Muslims — by Al-Qaeda, by Sunni and Shi’ite extremists or by Saddam Hussein loyalists. Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the late Al-Qaeda leader in Iraq and a Sunni, urged death to Shi’ites whom he described as poisonous snakes and atheists. Al-Qaeda is determined to destroy the West, but in the short term most of its victims will be Muslims in any place where it can topple their government to replace it with a regime as repressive and homicidal as the Taliban’s was.
Many British people object to Blair’s foreign policy. But only Muslim suicide bombers claim it as a justification for murder. In Tanweer’s videotape released last week he links his crime to Afghanistan and Iraq. But just in case anyone is tempted to think that Britain could avoid terrorism by withdrawing from those countries, Tanweer also calls on us to end our military and financial links with America and Israel. The United States was attacked in 2001 not because it had invaded another country (except to save Muslim lives in Bosnia), but because it is rampantly secular and supports Israel’s right to exist.
If the drifting apart of the Muslim and non-Muslim communities in Britain has increased the danger of terror, it follows that reconciliation and integration would make us safer. I do not mean what I write here to exacerbate the divisions in any way. Rather I believe that we can move closer if we are more honest about what is happening. Mayhem is being unleashed globally in the name of Islam. There is no point denying it, especially since most of those butchered have been Muslim. The British state is not the problem but part of the solution. A tolerant society can survive only if it bands together to suppress intolerance because we are all victims of that intolerance.
Every Briton must join in that effort, no ifs, no buts and no excuses.
Respectfully submitted,
#76 Posted by masadi on July 9, 2006 5:58:17 pm
#68 ferozk writes <<< US economic dominance of Muslim lands was made possible by Muslims themselves. Muslims are not as weak as they think or wish to be; afterall, these same nations, whom you say are exploited were able to unify and force the oil crisis upon the west in the 1970s.
If there was a will to say ``no`` to the US and west in 1970s, where is that will now and today? >>>
That `no` happened to be what was desired by these elite at the time, given the short time the embargo lasted. It happened to be extremely profitable and as contingency plans, according to documents recently released the West had plans for forcible seizure of the oil fields if need be. The ``no`` had no backbone to it, it was merely symbolic, otherwise it would have produced structural effects and more independence in the Arab lands and a move towards unity. It accomplished none of these.
Then he writes <<< The point is that Arab and Muslims rulers can resist the US and West, if they wish and their failure to do so, has nothing to do with the US or the West`s exloitive policies >>>
It has everything to do with the disparity of power and their support (in by positive and negative incentives) by the US given the non-representative nature of their governments. Move back in history and follow through how the colonials have dealt with that region and te amount of surplus they extract from it. You all blame Muslims for the lack of democracy in that region while at the same time recognizing the non representative nature of their government which are strengthened through external crisis if not actual military domination. These two claims don`t connect. That area is totally dominated by the US and throwing in one incident in the 1970, which achieved no change, while ignoring the 1001 others that reveal US hegemony in the area, does not prove a single thing.
That the West is keeping the rulers in Kuwait, UAE and SA in power through various mechansims is totally true. Do you think the public, if a people`s government were to come to power there would allow them to be used as US military satellites or would allow US companies to dominate their economies? Surveys show otherwise, on the other hand do you think the US will tolerate any disruption of the profits of their corporations and their hegemony in that region? Absolutely not and they have a whole tradition of manipulation of the political process, even using indigeneous military leaders to ensure that the setup that favors them is respected. You are totally off on this one.
If there was a will to say ``no`` to the US and west in 1970s, where is that will now and today? >>>
That `no` happened to be what was desired by these elite at the time, given the short time the embargo lasted. It happened to be extremely profitable and as contingency plans, according to documents recently released the West had plans for forcible seizure of the oil fields if need be. The ``no`` had no backbone to it, it was merely symbolic, otherwise it would have produced structural effects and more independence in the Arab lands and a move towards unity. It accomplished none of these.
Then he writes <<< The point is that Arab and Muslims rulers can resist the US and West, if they wish and their failure to do so, has nothing to do with the US or the West`s exloitive policies >>>
It has everything to do with the disparity of power and their support (in by positive and negative incentives) by the US given the non-representative nature of their governments. Move back in history and follow through how the colonials have dealt with that region and te amount of surplus they extract from it. You all blame Muslims for the lack of democracy in that region while at the same time recognizing the non representative nature of their government which are strengthened through external crisis if not actual military domination. These two claims don`t connect. That area is totally dominated by the US and throwing in one incident in the 1970, which achieved no change, while ignoring the 1001 others that reveal US hegemony in the area, does not prove a single thing.
That the West is keeping the rulers in Kuwait, UAE and SA in power through various mechansims is totally true. Do you think the public, if a people`s government were to come to power there would allow them to be used as US military satellites or would allow US companies to dominate their economies? Surveys show otherwise, on the other hand do you think the US will tolerate any disruption of the profits of their corporations and their hegemony in that region? Absolutely not and they have a whole tradition of manipulation of the political process, even using indigeneous military leaders to ensure that the setup that favors them is respected. You are totally off on this one.
#77 Posted by masadi on July 9, 2006 6:06:55 pm
#75, behram, not only is your article irrelevant on this thread, it is based on deliberately clouding the issue by giving prominence to a group of lunatics and thereby clouding the real issues. Sectarian ``religious`` violence by the IRA is similarly brushed aside by the article by terming it ``political and secular``- and even the rhetoric of the lunatics among the Muslims has a history and that history is rooted in political and secular problems, having nothing to do with religion.
This is exactly what I mean by bigotry and raw hate that Behram and the Hindus display on here. They will try to bend and mold articles to deliberately divert the discussion to Islam and then use their dim wit mentality to attack it, either copy pasted, as in this article, or garbled up from age old crusader arguments- that represents their own caricature of Islam rather than what Islam really is.
Behram get the hell away from this thread if you don`t have anything relevant to say.
This is exactly what I mean by bigotry and raw hate that Behram and the Hindus display on here. They will try to bend and mold articles to deliberately divert the discussion to Islam and then use their dim wit mentality to attack it, either copy pasted, as in this article, or garbled up from age old crusader arguments- that represents their own caricature of Islam rather than what Islam really is.
Behram get the hell away from this thread if you don`t have anything relevant to say.
#78 Posted by ballukhan on July 9, 2006 6:22:41 pm
``ignoring the 1001 others that reveal US hegemony in the area``
Please state those 1001 other things that reveal the hegemony?.
``keeping the rulers in Kuwait, UAE and SA in power through various mechansims is totally true``
Please tell us about these mechanisms.?
``Surveys show otherwise, ``
Please tell uis about WHICH surveys you refer to?
``.........whole tradition of manipulation of the political process, ``
Please tell us about which manipulations you refer to ??
..........putting half baked conspiracy theories and buttressing them with claims like ``surveys show...`` or ``there is evidence to show....`` or ``research has proved...`` in the garb of `scholarly` replies is the biggest propagandist FRAUD that we can see from Mr. Asadi.........only a bigot would be taken in by his propaganda............
Please state those 1001 other things that reveal the hegemony?.
``keeping the rulers in Kuwait, UAE and SA in power through various mechansims is totally true``
Please tell us about these mechanisms.?
``Surveys show otherwise, ``
Please tell uis about WHICH surveys you refer to?
``.........whole tradition of manipulation of the political process, ``
Please tell us about which manipulations you refer to ??
..........putting half baked conspiracy theories and buttressing them with claims like ``surveys show...`` or ``there is evidence to show....`` or ``research has proved...`` in the garb of `scholarly` replies is the biggest propagandist FRAUD that we can see from Mr. Asadi.........only a bigot would be taken in by his propaganda............
#79 Posted by masadi on July 9, 2006 6:55:21 pm
ballukhan, #78, get off this thread, you have nothing to add to the discussion or to counter what I say, simply blurting out ``propaganda`` does not prove anything. Countering facts by saying ``please show us`` just will not do, everytime I open my mouth, I don`t have to follow that up with books and webpages that document that. Does Kuwait, the UAE and Saudi Arabia not station US troops, have US troops not used those points to attack another Arab nation, that posed absolutely no threat to the US. Does the US not support its lackeys in these Arab nations, does it not provide massive AID to the non democratic regime in Egypt and ensure in a very public manner that it supports the regime in SA? Do the Arabs according to every survey research conducted to date, not support democracy and distrust and detest the US dominating their economies and its support of Israel?
By strengthning the militaries in these countries, setting up lucrative business deals with them. The US has a long tradition of supporting autocratic regimes all across the globe, like the regime of the Shah of Iran who was fulfilling much the same role as these Saudi royals while it conspired against any attempt at unity by Nasser or democracy in Iran by Mossadeq. In Latin America it did the same thing. If the US was pressuring the Saudis for democracy and helping their opposition, it could be readily achieved. It will not because the US does not want democracy in the region. These are facts, I will not do your homework for you, if you have been asleep for the past decade or so, do some readup on it.
There is zero propaganda in my writing, the facts that I use, if not documented are widely known truisms or the various treaties etc are provided for people to check up. Hiding behind slogans like you are, proves nothing, it only shows that you are a damn idiot who has no clue about anything.
By strengthning the militaries in these countries, setting up lucrative business deals with them. The US has a long tradition of supporting autocratic regimes all across the globe, like the regime of the Shah of Iran who was fulfilling much the same role as these Saudi royals while it conspired against any attempt at unity by Nasser or democracy in Iran by Mossadeq. In Latin America it did the same thing. If the US was pressuring the Saudis for democracy and helping their opposition, it could be readily achieved. It will not because the US does not want democracy in the region. These are facts, I will not do your homework for you, if you have been asleep for the past decade or so, do some readup on it.
There is zero propaganda in my writing, the facts that I use, if not documented are widely known truisms or the various treaties etc are provided for people to check up. Hiding behind slogans like you are, proves nothing, it only shows that you are a damn idiot who has no clue about anything.
#80 Posted by masadi on July 9, 2006 7:44:22 pm
ballukhan writes in #66 <<< Mr. Madani I did not know that you supported theories and theses which do not have any empiricial studies to substantiate itself........ >>>
The articles on my site that are written as papers are fully documented and lush with empirical studies. This idiot, ballukhan has not read any of them, cannot approach them in literary merits but merely throws out distractions like ``propaganda`` without being able to counter a single claim. It is like Bill Oreilly asking the person he`s debating to show him whether Saudi Arabia is located in the Middle East or at the south end of Latin America. That is how smart ballukhan appears when he asks for me to document whether the stationing of US troops as attack forces in Kuwait amounts to support or lack thereof by its rulers of the US. Further he does not have any clue about the scientific methodology. Theorising cannot operate without empirical analysis in sociology. It is not philosopy where the person uses his mind and logical connections. The work of C.W. Mills that I have quoted most often is full of empirical analysis based upon the time he was writing, I merely extend it using current documented pheonomenon. If anyting I have said in this article is false, provide your evidence, otherwise shut up.
The articles on my site that are written as papers are fully documented and lush with empirical studies. This idiot, ballukhan has not read any of them, cannot approach them in literary merits but merely throws out distractions like ``propaganda`` without being able to counter a single claim. It is like Bill Oreilly asking the person he`s debating to show him whether Saudi Arabia is located in the Middle East or at the south end of Latin America. That is how smart ballukhan appears when he asks for me to document whether the stationing of US troops as attack forces in Kuwait amounts to support or lack thereof by its rulers of the US. Further he does not have any clue about the scientific methodology. Theorising cannot operate without empirical analysis in sociology. It is not philosopy where the person uses his mind and logical connections. The work of C.W. Mills that I have quoted most often is full of empirical analysis based upon the time he was writing, I merely extend it using current documented pheonomenon. If anyting I have said in this article is false, provide your evidence, otherwise shut up.
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