16% UK Muslims Stand by London Bombers
Irena Akbar July 4, 2006
#272 Posted by VRV on July 16, 2006 12:13:36 am
Irena,
Irena behn takes exception to somebody raping a 5 year old girl in Gujarat. I am surprised!
It shud a holier thing to you behn! Your demi-god did it for the mankind b4 somebody emulated him in Gujarat.
Pl take a date and count, who did it more (though this corpse count is a satanic thought), Muslim fundoos or Hindu fundoos. In Indian subcontinent it`s Musloo fundamentalism that gave birth to Hindu fundamentalism. Pl dont equate Indian nationalism with Hindu nationalsim (Seema Mustafa does this very often, for her a bad Hindu is an Ugly Indian but a bad Muslims is not an Ugly Indian!!!???!!).
Irena behn takes exception to somebody raping a 5 year old girl in Gujarat. I am surprised!
It shud a holier thing to you behn! Your demi-god did it for the mankind b4 somebody emulated him in Gujarat.
Pl take a date and count, who did it more (though this corpse count is a satanic thought), Muslim fundoos or Hindu fundoos. In Indian subcontinent it`s Musloo fundamentalism that gave birth to Hindu fundamentalism. Pl dont equate Indian nationalism with Hindu nationalsim (Seema Mustafa does this very often, for her a bad Hindu is an Ugly Indian but a bad Muslims is not an Ugly Indian!!!???!!).
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#271 Posted by santos on July 13, 2006 9:33:53 pm
What happened to all the hindus in Pakistan? Where did they go? What will happen to the remaining few?
#270 Posted by harish_hyd on July 11, 2006 10:38:11 pm
#264 by tahmed32
re-read what you yourself posted. you missed the part where i wrote ``of any community of people on chowk ``. now see if your claim makes any sense.
So you imply that just because Chowk is free of Pakis who hate Indians (even though you know it is a bald lie), all Pakis love Indians and the terrorists who cross the LoC aren`t Pakis? Makes sense?
re-read what you yourself posted. you missed the part where i wrote ``of any community of people on chowk ``. now see if your claim makes any sense.
So you imply that just because Chowk is free of Pakis who hate Indians (even though you know it is a bald lie), all Pakis love Indians and the terrorists who cross the LoC aren`t Pakis? Makes sense?
#269 Posted by swarrier on July 11, 2006 4:42:22 pm
BJK
Irena is a womans name. Greek origin. It means peace.
Cheers.
Irena is a womans name. Greek origin. It means peace.
Cheers.
#268 Posted by bjk on July 11, 2006 1:01:03 pm
#267, #265 lucknawi
Ama Irena (is that a man’s name or a woman’s?)
Let me rephrase some of my thoughts in less provocative ways.
In #267 you use the qualifier “terrorist” Muslims to denote those who use the bomb, but put no such qualifier for “Hindutwa-vaadis”! Why not use the term “terrorist” to denote the act itself, instead of generalizing – are you in a position to vouch that no Muslims have conducted those heinous acts that you ascribe to the other community.
Who the heck appointed you as the sole spokesperson of all Indian Muslims? Are you out there with a movie camera recording what every Indian Muslim is doing around the clock and can you personally guarantee that no Indian Muslim has cut stomachs of pregnant women and burnt other human beings?
How much brain do you need to acquire to realize that acts of barbarism are not community-specific?
Why do you think your forefathers stayed back in India, anyway? You think that one day they got up and had this bright idea – hey, we live among savages, so let us stick around here so that a couple of generations later, our dear Irena can get to enjoy their full flavor!!
And since when did you start trusting politicians? Were you personally present in that Godhra compartment and monitoring who was actually doing the killing? And since when did Laloo become a paragon of virtue?
Of course, nobody needs to apologize except for what they do themselves. It is simple as that. Your statement “The Muslims never killed those 59, so why should they apologize?” is utterly pathetic – because your position is not that people should take responsibility as individuals – you are taking the asinine position that if some Muslims had carried out that outrage – then would be okay for Muslims to go around apologizing. What a numbskull way to look at things!
Why this herd mentality?
Guess what, there is no herd – except perhaps in your mind!
News media is not all that free of bias – it is not much different in the USA, too. Clearly, parts of the Gujarat media were complicit in the post-Godhra riots! These people need to be held accountable. Why don’t those NGO’s bring the necessary lawsuits?
And what is this big deal that you are making about not knowing Urdu? Language is a tool of communication as well as a vehicle of culture and a repository of heritage. If indeed your older generation members know the language but you don’t – you are the one who loses out.
The important thing is to do positive things with that heritage – so it gets even better over time, and not waste time and energy defending stuff which is indefensible.
#267 Posted by lucknawi on July 11, 2006 7:14:59 am
Re: # 211
Indian007:
You said, ``Atleast hindutwavaadis dont give shelter to spies and terrorists
from Pakistan......atleast hindutwavaadis dont plant bombs in school
buses and public places...... .........Indian muslims on the other hand, are
well known for doing all of the above.``
My reply: At least Indian Muslims don`t rape a five-year-old girl. At least
Indian Muslims don`t cut the stomach of a nine-month-pregnant woman and burn
her foetus in front of her eyes. At least they don`t stuff pieces of iron and
wood into the vaginas of raped women. That`s the bastion of the Hinduta-wadi
males..
Terrorist Muslims might be using a weapon of mass destruction like a bomb
but Hindutva-wadis use the weapon of rape. The former weapon is bad, but the
latter is worse.
Irena Akbar
Indian007:
You said, ``Atleast hindutwavaadis dont give shelter to spies and terrorists
from Pakistan......atleast hindutwavaadis dont plant bombs in school
buses and public places...... .........Indian muslims on the other hand, are
well known for doing all of the above.``
My reply: At least Indian Muslims don`t rape a five-year-old girl. At least
Indian Muslims don`t cut the stomach of a nine-month-pregnant woman and burn
her foetus in front of her eyes. At least they don`t stuff pieces of iron and
wood into the vaginas of raped women. That`s the bastion of the Hinduta-wadi
males..
Terrorist Muslims might be using a weapon of mass destruction like a bomb
but Hindutva-wadis use the weapon of rape. The former weapon is bad, but the
latter is worse.
Irena Akbar
#266 Posted by yossarian on July 11, 2006 7:10:47 am
Serial blasts halt Mumbai`s Western Railway
and the a-hole commies are worried about the the improper presentation of surveys by media.
and the a-hole commies are worried about the the improper presentation of surveys by media.
#265 Posted by lucknawi on July 11, 2006 7:06:54 am
Re: # 164
Kedarnathji:
You asked the author two questions:
Q1) How much empathy has been shown by the Muslim world to these 59
innocent pilgrims?
Q2)What was the coverage of these riots in the Indian media especially your
Urdu media?
The author`s reply:
A1)The fire started from inside the train. Remember the Banerjee report?
The Muslims never killed those 59, so why should they apologise?*
A2)Urdu media is not ``my`` media. I maybe a ``Luknawi`` but I don`t know how
to read or write Urdu. However, I do know how the Gujarati-language media
covered the ``riots``. I read about it in a 50-page report that I gathered
from an NGO that visited Gujarat at the time of the genocide. According
to that report, the Guj newspapers published false reports of the rape of
Hindu women by Muslim men. The reports were flashed on the front pages. The
idea was to provoke the Hindus to commit similar crimes against Muslims,
which they so ``gloriously`` did for the three months that followed. Once the
genocide was over by sometime around June 2002, the same Guj newspapers
published small reports stashed away in the corners of inside pages that
apologized for the initial false reports. The small reports were so
invisible, they could have been mistaken for tender-notices.
Peace.
Irena Akbar
Kedarnathji:
You asked the author two questions:
Q1) How much empathy has been shown by the Muslim world to these 59
innocent pilgrims?
Q2)What was the coverage of these riots in the Indian media especially your
Urdu media?
The author`s reply:
A1)The fire started from inside the train. Remember the Banerjee report?
The Muslims never killed those 59, so why should they apologise?*
A2)Urdu media is not ``my`` media. I maybe a ``Luknawi`` but I don`t know how
to read or write Urdu. However, I do know how the Gujarati-language media
covered the ``riots``. I read about it in a 50-page report that I gathered
from an NGO that visited Gujarat at the time of the genocide. According
to that report, the Guj newspapers published false reports of the rape of
Hindu women by Muslim men. The reports were flashed on the front pages. The
idea was to provoke the Hindus to commit similar crimes against Muslims,
which they so ``gloriously`` did for the three months that followed. Once the
genocide was over by sometime around June 2002, the same Guj newspapers
published small reports stashed away in the corners of inside pages that
apologized for the initial false reports. The small reports were so
invisible, they could have been mistaken for tender-notices.
Peace.
Irena Akbar
#264 Posted by tahmed32 on July 11, 2006 6:46:31 am
#262 re-read what you yourself posted. you missed the part where i wrote ``of any community of people on chowk ``. now see if your claim makes any sense.
#263 Posted by harish_hyd on July 11, 2006 2:56:31 am
#236 by zeemax
So, blowing up things wins!
Going by your logic, one would conclude that the US will be the biggest winner given the fact that they seem to be using the greatest amount of explosives per Muslim :-)
So, blowing up things wins!
Going by your logic, one would conclude that the US will be the biggest winner given the fact that they seem to be using the greatest amount of explosives per Muslim :-)
#262 Posted by harish_hyd on July 10, 2006 11:46:08 pm
#182 by tahmed32 on July 7, 2006 11:38am PT
All I can say is that, despite my differences on issues with fellow Pakistanis on chowk, I am very proud of the fact that we dont have such rabid haters of any community of people on chowk in our midst.
Sure..like I said, Pakis crossing the borders armed with AK-47s to kill Indians aren`t ``rabid haters of any community (read Hindus)``. They are full of love for Hindus.
All I can say is that, despite my differences on issues with fellow Pakistanis on chowk, I am very proud of the fact that we dont have such rabid haters of any community of people on chowk in our midst.
Sure..like I said, Pakis crossing the borders armed with AK-47s to kill Indians aren`t ``rabid haters of any community (read Hindus)``. They are full of love for Hindus.
#261 Posted by zeemax on July 10, 2006 10:44:52 pm
#257 by Raw_Dust
There is no contradiction. It seems you gentlemen have mentle blocks which only look for straws to attack Islamic thought in complete ignorance while dispensing with the need to study even the basics of it.
My friend, there are 99 descriptions or `names` of Allah contained in Quran and these include AL-QAHHAR and AL-JABBAR. Go look up in google what that means. Or better yet, look up all the 99. It should add to your knowledge to some extent.
There is no contradiction. It seems you gentlemen have mentle blocks which only look for straws to attack Islamic thought in complete ignorance while dispensing with the need to study even the basics of it.
My friend, there are 99 descriptions or `names` of Allah contained in Quran and these include AL-QAHHAR and AL-JABBAR. Go look up in google what that means. Or better yet, look up all the 99. It should add to your knowledge to some extent.
#260 Posted by echoboom on July 10, 2006 9:51:16 pm
The match is ON!
Secularoons, Liberaloons, Murtadoons, & munafiquoons take note.
Did I read somewhere of ``hedonism`` & ``boheminism`` rearing their ugly heads in Pakistan?
Well Musharraf`s days are numbered after November 2006. Yahyaa Khan was also responsible for the KanjaRR pUn when General Rani , the Madame Naekaa,ruled his roost.
It is no longer ``cool`` to be the westoxicated.
Posted: 2006 Jul 10 - 12:05
• The largest theme park in Sweden changed its uniform regulations after a Muslim female worker who was banned from wearing the Hijab reported her managers to the discrimination ombudsman, SR International reported.
The Muslim worker was denied a summer job at the Liseberg amusement park in Gothenburg because she refused to take off her Islamic headscarf and long-armed top.
According to the local newspaper Göteborgs Posten, the woman has been given just two thousand dollars in compensation after reporting her bosses to the discrimination ombudsman, which ruled that she can wear a tailored-made Islamic dress in the theme park’s colors.
A recent survey by the National Integration Board showed that veiled Muslim women in Sweden aren’t only discriminated against but are also violently attacked.
The Hijab is meant to protect Muslim women from the eyes of men outside their families. It has been the subject of heated debate in several European countries for more than a decade.
In 2004, a Hijab ban was imposed on all female Muslim teachers and students in all state schools in France, where Muslims make up about 8% of the population.
In Germany, home to about 5 million Muslims, eight states banned public school teachers from wearing the Islamic headscarf. And in the capital, Berlin, all civil servants are banned from wearing the Hijab.
And last December, the Dutch parliament voted to ban Burqas, which are already banned in the Belgian town of Maaseik.
However, many Muslims in Europe succeeded in integrating themselves into their societies, while preserving their Islamic values and identities - following the basic governing Islamic rule in the relationship between Muslims and non-Muslims: peaceful co-existence. The hard work has led to the recognition of Muslims in many European states, which has seen many Muslims entering the political process.
Sources:Islam Online
Secularoons, Liberaloons, Murtadoons, & munafiquoons take note.
Did I read somewhere of ``hedonism`` & ``boheminism`` rearing their ugly heads in Pakistan?
Well Musharraf`s days are numbered after November 2006. Yahyaa Khan was also responsible for the KanjaRR pUn when General Rani , the Madame Naekaa,ruled his roost.
It is no longer ``cool`` to be the westoxicated.
Posted: 2006 Jul 10 - 12:05
• The largest theme park in Sweden changed its uniform regulations after a Muslim female worker who was banned from wearing the Hijab reported her managers to the discrimination ombudsman, SR International reported.
The Muslim worker was denied a summer job at the Liseberg amusement park in Gothenburg because she refused to take off her Islamic headscarf and long-armed top.
According to the local newspaper Göteborgs Posten, the woman has been given just two thousand dollars in compensation after reporting her bosses to the discrimination ombudsman, which ruled that she can wear a tailored-made Islamic dress in the theme park’s colors.
A recent survey by the National Integration Board showed that veiled Muslim women in Sweden aren’t only discriminated against but are also violently attacked.
The Hijab is meant to protect Muslim women from the eyes of men outside their families. It has been the subject of heated debate in several European countries for more than a decade.
In 2004, a Hijab ban was imposed on all female Muslim teachers and students in all state schools in France, where Muslims make up about 8% of the population.
In Germany, home to about 5 million Muslims, eight states banned public school teachers from wearing the Islamic headscarf. And in the capital, Berlin, all civil servants are banned from wearing the Hijab.
And last December, the Dutch parliament voted to ban Burqas, which are already banned in the Belgian town of Maaseik.
However, many Muslims in Europe succeeded in integrating themselves into their societies, while preserving their Islamic values and identities - following the basic governing Islamic rule in the relationship between Muslims and non-Muslims: peaceful co-existence. The hard work has led to the recognition of Muslims in many European states, which has seen many Muslims entering the political process.
Sources:Islam Online
#259 Posted by Aangaara on July 10, 2006 3:28:33 pm
some moron commented on this thread that muslims in France were CHEERING their TEAM on because of zidane and ribery.........
well they sure were cheering the french DEFEAT by waving algerian and turkish flags.....
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060710/sp_soccer_afp/fblwc2006frapeople_060710051819
one thing that I have noticed about muslim communities in the west is their thankless nature. They would binge on social welfare which is basically a zakat from the infidel, and then they have the audacity to whine about the injustices done to them?
injustices like lets see.. hmm women wearing skirts?? or public display of eating during the holy month of ramazan? or no public holiday on eid?
well let me tell my whiney muslim brothers that if u dont go back to ur pure lands, u might one day find ur daughter/sister/cousin wearing a skirt....... and with a gora ......... out on a date having lunch..... on the 27th of ramazan..... and she might not come back for eid... public holiday or no public holiday. so there is still time... leave u hypocrits leave!.... before your daughters run away.... LEAVE! :P
well they sure were cheering the french DEFEAT by waving algerian and turkish flags.....
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060710/sp_soccer_afp/fblwc2006frapeople_060710051819
one thing that I have noticed about muslim communities in the west is their thankless nature. They would binge on social welfare which is basically a zakat from the infidel, and then they have the audacity to whine about the injustices done to them?
injustices like lets see.. hmm women wearing skirts?? or public display of eating during the holy month of ramazan? or no public holiday on eid?
well let me tell my whiney muslim brothers that if u dont go back to ur pure lands, u might one day find ur daughter/sister/cousin wearing a skirt....... and with a gora ......... out on a date having lunch..... on the 27th of ramazan..... and she might not come back for eid... public holiday or no public holiday. so there is still time... leave u hypocrits leave!.... before your daughters run away.... LEAVE! :P
#258 Posted by echoboom on July 10, 2006 1:56:36 pm
http://www.duluthsuperior.com/mld/duluthsuperior/news/politics/15007386.htm
Posted on Mon, Jul. 10,
UW-Madison will allow controversial instructor to teach
RYAN J. FOLEY
Associated Press
MADISON, Wis. -........
Farrell launched a review after Barrett spoke on a radio talk show last month about his views that the terrorist attacks were a government conspiracy designed to spark war in the Middle East. Barrett is active in a group of scholars who believe, among other things, the twin towers were blown up by U.S. government operatives.
His remarks sparked calls from state Rep. Steve Nass, R-Whitewater, and Republican gubernatorial candidate Mark Green for his immediate dismissal. Gov. Jim Doyle, a Democrat, joined the critics in questioning whether Barrett was competent to teach.
full report
Posted on Mon, Jul. 10,
UW-Madison will allow controversial instructor to teach
RYAN J. FOLEY
Associated Press
MADISON, Wis. -........
Farrell launched a review after Barrett spoke on a radio talk show last month about his views that the terrorist attacks were a government conspiracy designed to spark war in the Middle East. Barrett is active in a group of scholars who believe, among other things, the twin towers were blown up by U.S. government operatives.
His remarks sparked calls from state Rep. Steve Nass, R-Whitewater, and Republican gubernatorial candidate Mark Green for his immediate dismissal. Gov. Jim Doyle, a Democrat, joined the critics in questioning whether Barrett was competent to teach.
full report
#257 Posted by Raw_Dust on July 10, 2006 10:16:24 am
``However one terms it as dictates of Allah`s Truth``
But zeemax`s thick head wont appreciate the contradiction in his poerwful and simple dogma which also states that this Allah also happens to be All Merciful yet All Powerful. The other side make no such claims about any entity let alone issue fatwas on people who dare to disagree with their opinion. Zeemax how old are you exactly?
But zeemax`s thick head wont appreciate the contradiction in his poerwful and simple dogma which also states that this Allah also happens to be All Merciful yet All Powerful. The other side make no such claims about any entity let alone issue fatwas on people who dare to disagree with their opinion. Zeemax how old are you exactly?
#256 Posted by arjun_m on July 10, 2006 9:15:53 am
#255 by echoboom on July 10, 2006 8:39am PT
A good example is a recent Jordanian survey showing that women find it acceptable to be beaten by their husbands!
I`m going to print t-shirts: ``Islam: Because the bitch won`t shut up``
I`m going to make a killing..
A good example is a recent Jordanian survey showing that women find it acceptable to be beaten by their husbands!
I`m going to print t-shirts: ``Islam: Because the bitch won`t shut up``
I`m going to make a killing..
#255 Posted by echoboom on July 10, 2006 8:39:19 am
For the Westoxicated scum in the slavelands where goraa left but left his droppings
....``buy we excell in sniffing the goraa-ass in english ...`` yelp , in american accents, the canines from the cantonement & colonies
The veil is not the issue
According to a recent poll, Muslim women care more about voting and their countries’ problems such as violent extremism, corruption and lack of unity among the countries. It is unfortunate that women did not use the survey as a way to express their “own” problems and needs. If they don’t speak up, nobody will do it for them.
It might be surprising to hear that the veil, or even the burqua, is not the main problem facing Muslim women. None of the women surveyed mentioned this issue.
Maybe people should stop stereotyping veiled women and focus on more important problems. A good example is a recent Jordanian survey showing that women find it acceptable to be beaten by their husbands!
What is really alarming is that more women, married and unmarried, found beating acceptable compared to their male counterparts.
Women are not challenging the status quo. In fact, they might be ingraining it even more. Are they afraid or are they oblivious?
— Gihane Askar, Internet Division, The Washington Times
The problem with Western civilization is they tend to judge everyone by their standard and do not fully comprehend the power of religious belief. In Middle East like you rightly observed, the veil or wife-beating is part of the socio-cultural-religious system. It should not surprise you that Middle East culture is completely at 180 degrees from the West. The West needs more studies like this to fully understand non-Western culture.
Andy Woodward Says:
After 11 eleven years in 3 countries the Mideast I agree the veil is not the issue. There’s no great pressure from women to get rid of it and few are forced to wear it. There’s much more concern about not having access to decent jobs, to being hassled on the street and over the phone by young men, to domestic violence and forced (not arranged) marriages. There’s an awful lot that women worry about in Arab society and the veil is the least of it.
Our belief has the power of Truth to liberate both men and women subject to the erroneous and oppressive morality of a contrary religious conviction.
If we are going to “dialogue” with Islam, we should not tie our religious selves behind our backs. For if we proceed on solely a modern subjective or enlightenment morality, we will fail because they are incapable of pronouncing any reason for its own superiority.
Apparently, nobody in this forum is actually reading these “surveys”.
In nearly all cases, the majority of Jordanian men and women DO NOT believe that striking a woman is justified for any reason other than adultery. It is true that, compared to Americans, Middle East cultures are far less tolerant of adultery.
It would also be helpful if someone noted that domestic violence is also one of the major challenges facing the American society. Estimates of the percentage of American women who have been the victim of domestic violence range as high as 33%.
At best, we can only say that Americans might be slightly more respectful of women. But even that is only true if we ignore pornography, a practice that is virtually nonexistent in Muslim cultures.
All replies are screened by The Washington Times prior to posting. All fields are required. The views expressed are your own and unless specifically stated are not those of The Washington Times. The Washington Times is not responsible for the content of any external sites or comments referenced. If you think the content violates the Terms of Use then please alert the The Washington Times. The Washington Times reserves the right to edit posts as required. Submitting a comment does not imply that it will be posted. Please see the posting guidelines.
....``buy we excell in sniffing the goraa-ass in english ...`` yelp , in american accents, the canines from the cantonement & colonies
The Washington Times
Wednesday, June 28, 2006
The veil is not the issue
According to a recent poll, Muslim women care more about voting and their countries’ problems such as violent extremism, corruption and lack of unity among the countries. It is unfortunate that women did not use the survey as a way to express their “own” problems and needs. If they don’t speak up, nobody will do it for them.
It might be surprising to hear that the veil, or even the burqua, is not the main problem facing Muslim women. None of the women surveyed mentioned this issue.
Maybe people should stop stereotyping veiled women and focus on more important problems. A good example is a recent Jordanian survey showing that women find it acceptable to be beaten by their husbands!
What is really alarming is that more women, married and unmarried, found beating acceptable compared to their male counterparts.
Women are not challenging the status quo. In fact, they might be ingraining it even more. Are they afraid or are they oblivious?
— Gihane Askar, Internet Division, The Washington Times
11 Responses to “The veil is not the issue”
The problem with Western civilization is they tend to judge everyone by their standard and do not fully comprehend the power of religious belief. In Middle East like you rightly observed, the veil or wife-beating is part of the socio-cultural-religious system. It should not surprise you that Middle East culture is completely at 180 degrees from the West. The West needs more studies like this to fully understand non-Western culture.
posted at 1:15 AM
Andy Woodward Says:
After 11 eleven years in 3 countries the Mideast I agree the veil is not the issue. There’s no great pressure from women to get rid of it and few are forced to wear it. There’s much more concern about not having access to decent jobs, to being hassled on the street and over the phone by young men, to domestic violence and forced (not arranged) marriages. There’s an awful lot that women worry about in Arab society and the veil is the least of it.
Our belief has the power of Truth to liberate both men and women subject to the erroneous and oppressive morality of a contrary religious conviction.
If we are going to “dialogue” with Islam, we should not tie our religious selves behind our backs. For if we proceed on solely a modern subjective or enlightenment morality, we will fail because they are incapable of pronouncing any reason for its own superiority.
posted at 2:32 PM
Apparently, nobody in this forum is actually reading these “surveys”.
In nearly all cases, the majority of Jordanian men and women DO NOT believe that striking a woman is justified for any reason other than adultery. It is true that, compared to Americans, Middle East cultures are far less tolerant of adultery.
It would also be helpful if someone noted that domestic violence is also one of the major challenges facing the American society. Estimates of the percentage of American women who have been the victim of domestic violence range as high as 33%.
At best, we can only say that Americans might be slightly more respectful of women. But even that is only true if we ignore pornography, a practice that is virtually nonexistent in Muslim cultures.
All replies are screened by The Washington Times prior to posting. All fields are required. The views expressed are your own and unless specifically stated are not those of The Washington Times. The Washington Times is not responsible for the content of any external sites or comments referenced. If you think the content violates the Terms of Use then please alert the The Washington Times. The Washington Times reserves the right to edit posts as required. Submitting a comment does not imply that it will be posted. Please see the posting guidelines.
#254 Posted by VRV on July 10, 2006 6:38:37 am
Re: # 249
Warrier,
I do agree to what u said. I am an unalloyed non-believer but want the system of democracy, where people`s ideas are allowed to flourish. Belief (religious) system is not going to be humanistic.
Science educaton (School text books) in India use to have a first chaper on ``Quest for Truth``. They deleted it now.
I once read an illuminating article by George Monbiot on this subject of humans as a collection of complex molecules with no purpose or agenda.
On any day (in future) we could be slammed by an errant meteorite, then the Islamists or any other religious zealots would find their final moments of realisation that there is no god, leave alone Allah.
Best wishes.
VRV
Warrier,
I do agree to what u said. I am an unalloyed non-believer but want the system of democracy, where people`s ideas are allowed to flourish. Belief (religious) system is not going to be humanistic.
Science educaton (School text books) in India use to have a first chaper on ``Quest for Truth``. They deleted it now.
I once read an illuminating article by George Monbiot on this subject of humans as a collection of complex molecules with no purpose or agenda.
On any day (in future) we could be slammed by an errant meteorite, then the Islamists or any other religious zealots would find their final moments of realisation that there is no god, leave alone Allah.
Best wishes.
VRV
#253 Posted by zeemax on July 10, 2006 12:42:31 am
#250 by anil
Regarding including believers and non-believers, I just wonder why did you need to add this line...(a) you genuinely want non-believers to accept you ;... or you cannot see the differences between the reasons for non-believing and reasons for believing.
I had written ``but that is how it is and not only the believers, but non-believers ... and everyone else follows the same truths at one time or another...``
Reference to believers/non-believers was merely in a manner of speaking and meant muslims and non-muslims. You can substitute accordingly and nothing further was intended to be read into it. It was only meant to illustrate that both muslims and non-muslims essentially practice the same unpalatable truths. However one terms it as dictates of Allah`s Truth, while the other terms it as political necessity/expediency, security, freedom, axis of evil, threats to civilization and so forth ... it`s all the same.
Regarding including believers and non-believers, I just wonder why did you need to add this line...(a) you genuinely want non-believers to accept you ;... or you cannot see the differences between the reasons for non-believing and reasons for believing.
I had written ``but that is how it is and not only the believers, but non-believers ... and everyone else follows the same truths at one time or another...``
Reference to believers/non-believers was merely in a manner of speaking and meant muslims and non-muslims. You can substitute accordingly and nothing further was intended to be read into it. It was only meant to illustrate that both muslims and non-muslims essentially practice the same unpalatable truths. However one terms it as dictates of Allah`s Truth, while the other terms it as political necessity/expediency, security, freedom, axis of evil, threats to civilization and so forth ... it`s all the same.
#252 Posted by pmishra2 on July 9, 2006 5:25:25 pm
Poor zeemax, the moron thinks that achievements of french or german muslims show only the glory of islam. On the contrary, it shows that these societies are dynamic and able to absorb people of different backgrounds. The glory is to France and Germany, not to a bunch of people with strange beliefs.
The day Saudi Arabia highlights its acceptance of its jewish minorities or Pakistan shows off the achievements of its hindus, is the day we will accept that islam has many positives. Until then, we will stay on guard.
The day Saudi Arabia highlights its acceptance of its jewish minorities or Pakistan shows off the achievements of its hindus, is the day we will accept that islam has many positives. Until then, we will stay on guard.
#251 Posted by echoboom on July 9, 2006 2:27:47 pm
France Muslim School Noted for Excellence
By Hadi Yahmid, IOL
Correspondent
Students at a class in Ibn Rushd
school.
PARIS — The first batch to graduate from France`s
sole Muslim secondary school has scored impressive final results, with
hijab-clad students topping the chart.
"Success rate reached more than 75 percent,
thank God," Ammar Al-Asfar, the principal of Ibn Rushd school,
told IslamOnline.net on Sunday, July 8.
Of the 20 alumni, fifteen male and female students
have succeeded, he said, adding that a majority of 12 hijab-donned
students had scored excellent remarks.
"We are proud of these results for a start.
"We have remarkably ironed out the first
obstacle that faced us since the school came into being," noted
Asfar.
The first batch of graduates tossed their
graduation hats into the air on Friday, July 7.
In July of 2003, the French government approved the
establishment of Ibn Rushd school in Lille, where Muslims make up 25
percent of the one million population.
Seventy students are enrolled in the school, which
came as a source of relief for Muslim girls, who had to leave their
state-run school because of their hijab.
France adopted in November 2004 a controversial law
banning hijab and religious symbols like Jewish skullcaps, crucifixes
and Sikh turbans in public schools.
French Muslims — a sizeable six-million minority
— along with practicing Jews, Sikhs and international human rights
groups strongly condemned the law, saying it violated the freedom of
religion right in secular France.
No Discrimination
Asfar said that the school`s hijab-donned students
were treated well at the state-supervised exam centers in Lille.
"They were neither discriminated against nor
harassed," he said. "They were treated with respect."
Asfar said that the anti-hijab law cut both ways as
it badly harmed French Muslims, but prompted them to establish their
own schools like other minorities.
The controversial law forced many French Muslim
girls to enroll in schools in neighboring European countries or at
private schools at home.
Belgium, Switzerland, Turkey and Britain are among
the countries that were sought by a growing number of hijab-clad
students.
Others have opted for charge-free tutorials
provided by French Muslims.
A number of private schools have also opened
special sections for hijab-clad students shunned by state schools.
The second Muslim secondary school is expected to
open next academic year in Lyon, central France.
#250 Posted by anil on July 9, 2006 1:14:55 pm
Re: # 241
Zeemax Sahib:
``3:60 The truth (comes) from Allah alone; so be not of those who doubt. ``
This is entirely a matter of belief.... over 80% of the humanity does not subscribe to it...
I have not read Quran, but I can point to you even this Ayat is so strong.... to define... binaries as the rule... ``do this or else...`` This can be an intepretation.
Regarding including believers and non-believers, I just wonder why did you need to add this line. Of many reasons a couple I can think are: (a) you genuinely want non-believers to accept you (for this you must not worry those who like you they will); or you cannot see the differences between the reasons for non-believing and reasons for believing.
Anil
Zeemax Sahib:
``3:60 The truth (comes) from Allah alone; so be not of those who doubt. ``
This is entirely a matter of belief.... over 80% of the humanity does not subscribe to it...
I have not read Quran, but I can point to you even this Ayat is so strong.... to define... binaries as the rule... ``do this or else...`` This can be an intepretation.
Regarding including believers and non-believers, I just wonder why did you need to add this line. Of many reasons a couple I can think are: (a) you genuinely want non-believers to accept you (for this you must not worry those who like you they will); or you cannot see the differences between the reasons for non-believing and reasons for believing.
Anil
#249 Posted by swarrier on July 9, 2006 12:37:13 pm
Re: # 243
VRV
It`s not sweet. It`s true. The world is exactly what it is. We are programmed to try to survive just like any microbe. What is good for us is not exactly good for other things. And contrary to all the judgement day ideas , one day perhaps the microbes or something else will take over again.
I quoted the Gayatri Mantra in translation a few posts back on the search for truth.
It is better to gear up to fight for what you believe. If some people believe that violence is the only way to go to change things then if you want to protect your ideas it will come at a cost.
Osama doesn`t think he is evil. He thinks he is a good guy. I and many other people would prefer to look at him over the sights of a SIG-9. So to him I`m the bad guy.
In the end you agree to their way of thinking or you destroy them or mediate, if that is possible. You will have won for some time or they will have .
However the struggle will continue anyway. The very act of creation means that death is inevitable.
VRV
It`s not sweet. It`s true. The world is exactly what it is. We are programmed to try to survive just like any microbe. What is good for us is not exactly good for other things. And contrary to all the judgement day ideas , one day perhaps the microbes or something else will take over again.
I quoted the Gayatri Mantra in translation a few posts back on the search for truth.
It is better to gear up to fight for what you believe. If some people believe that violence is the only way to go to change things then if you want to protect your ideas it will come at a cost.
Osama doesn`t think he is evil. He thinks he is a good guy. I and many other people would prefer to look at him over the sights of a SIG-9. So to him I`m the bad guy.
In the end you agree to their way of thinking or you destroy them or mediate, if that is possible. You will have won for some time or they will have .
However the struggle will continue anyway. The very act of creation means that death is inevitable.
#248 Posted by echoboom on July 9, 2006 11:28:14 am
The march is ON!
PARIS — One day before the World Cup final
against Italy on Sunday, July 9, French Muslims are walking on the air
with their soccer team and with superstar Muslim footballers Zinedine
Zidane and Franck Ribery.
French Muslims Proud of Zidane, Ribery
By Hadi Yahmid, IOL Correspondent
Zidane and his successor Ribery played a key role in France`s World Cup victories.
PARIS — One day before the World Cup final
against Italy on Sunday, July 9, French Muslims are walking on the air
with their soccer team and with superstar Muslim footballers Zinedine
Zidane and Franck Ribery.
"We are proud of our French soccer team and
playmaker Zinedine Zidane," Lhaj Thami Breze, chairman of the
Union of French Islamic Organizations (UOIF), told IslamOnline.net.
"We are confident Les Bleus (the nickname for
the French soccer team) will defeat Italy and win the World Cup,"
he added.
Led by legend Zidane, France will go head-to-head
against Italy on Berlin`s 69,000-capacity Olympic Stadium in the world
tournament final on Sunday.
The French team reached the final after winning a
semi-final game against Portugal 1-0 by playmaker legend and
three-time FIFA World Player of the Year Zidane.
Now, the French are only 90 minutes away from the
second World Cup in eight years, the crowning achievement in a decade
of glory that began when France, and Zidane, reached the semi-finals
of the 1996 European Championship.
France won the 1998 World Cup against Brazil 3-0,
two of which scored by Zidane.
Now a global audience of 1.5 billion will focus
their gaze in the final to see if the French magician can pull off one
last, glorious conjuring trick.
Glory
"It is really a source of pride that Zidane is
of an Arab and Muslim origin," said Samira, a female fan of
Algerian origin, told IOL.
"He has contributed to make France`s football
glory," she added.
As France booked a final World Cup place, thousands
of French fans of immigrant origin took to the streets to celebrate
the French win.
"Zidane is France`s president... Mercy
Zidane," was among the slogans chanted by the jubilant French.
The French fans are confident that their team is
going to beat the Azzurri (Italy) because they hold the skeleton key.
"We have Zidane and they (Italy) don`t,"
French defender Willy Sagnol told Agence France-Presse (AFP) Saturday.
Marcello Lippi, Zidane`s manager of the French
maestro for three years at Juventus, agreed.
"Zidane is probably the best player there has
been in the past 20 years," he said.
France and Italy have met five times in major
tournaments, in which the French team has beaten the Azzurri three
times.
Their most recent victory over the Azzurri came in
the final of Euro 2000, when Italy were just 17 seconds away from
winning before France equalized and David Trezeguet struck a memorable
golden goal winner.
Ribery
Zidane`s expected successor, Frank Ribery, has also
added to the jubilance of the French Muslims.
"Seeing Ribery while raising his hands and
supplicating to God as any typical Muslims do makes me feel
proud," said Hamid, of Moroccan origin.
The 23-year-old Ribery has stolen the limelight
during France`s opener in the World Cup against Switzerland when he
was caught while raising his hands and supplicating to God as any
other Muslims do.
"French Muslims feel that Ribery`s
supplication notice is a sign of dignity and honor for the French
suburbanites, most of whom are of Muslim origin," Breze added.
Ribery, who did not make his international debut
until late May, is expected to start the World Cup final on Sunday
against Italy.
The 23-year-old forward has brought energy and pace
to a veteran lineup, his fearless runs causing panic among opposing
defenders and creating regular scoring opportunities.
Named to the World Cup roster without having played
in an international game, Ribery showed his value during three tune-up
matches when he entered in the second half.
The Olympique Marseille right-sided winger and
midfielder is believed to have reverted to Islam after marrying a
Muslim women, of Moroccan origin.
Though he rarely speaks about how he found the
Muslim faith, he recently told Le Paris Match magazine that he felt
"safe" with Islam.
France is home to some six to seven million
Muslims, the largest Muslim minority in Europe.
#247 Posted by echoboom on July 9, 2006 11:10:38 am
The march is ON!
German Teacher to Wear Headscarf By Zaman, Stuttgart Published:Saturday, July 08, 2006 zaman.com
Dorris G., a German-Muslim teaching at a primary and secondary school who has criticized the headscarf ban implemented by Germany’s Baden-Wurttemberg province has won a legal case against the Stuttgart Administrative Court.
The Stuttgart Administrative Court declared the school administration’s ban on headscarves unlawful since it was contrary to the equity principal and European Human Rights Accord.
The Court decided that Dorris G. may teach while wearing a headscarf. Having taught in Stuttgart since 1973 and converting to Islam in 1984, Dorris G. wears a headscarf that doesn’t cover her shoulders.
The court determined that Dorris G. was unfairly treated because the nuns teaching at public schools in Baden-Württemberg province while wearing their specific dress.
Meanwhile, Nuray A., who taught at a nursery school in Baden-Wurttemberg province was dismissed for wearing a headscarf.
However, the court awarded Nuray A. an 8,000 Euro-composition payment.
German Teacher to Wear Headscarf By Zaman, Stuttgart Published:Saturday, July 08, 2006 zaman.com
Dorris G., a German-Muslim teaching at a primary and secondary school who has criticized the headscarf ban implemented by Germany’s Baden-Wurttemberg province has won a legal case against the Stuttgart Administrative Court.
The Stuttgart Administrative Court declared the school administration’s ban on headscarves unlawful since it was contrary to the equity principal and European Human Rights Accord.
The Court decided that Dorris G. may teach while wearing a headscarf. Having taught in Stuttgart since 1973 and converting to Islam in 1984, Dorris G. wears a headscarf that doesn’t cover her shoulders.
The court determined that Dorris G. was unfairly treated because the nuns teaching at public schools in Baden-Württemberg province while wearing their specific dress.
Meanwhile, Nuray A., who taught at a nursery school in Baden-Wurttemberg province was dismissed for wearing a headscarf.
However, the court awarded Nuray A. an 8,000 Euro-composition payment.
#246 Posted by echoboom on July 9, 2006 10:22:36 am
Zeemax:
`tuum` ko uun sey vafa kee hai Ummeed
jo naheeN jaantay vafa kya hai.............Ghalib
Sateeza kaar raha hai Azal sey taa imrooz
Charaagh-i muustafavi sey charagh-i bu`lahabi..........Allama Iqbal.
Laakh Hakeem sr`b`jaib, eik Kaleem sr`b`kaf: Million intellectuals in the head; & just one Moses with a band around the head (ready to fight)..........Allama Iqbal.
IlmooN bUss kreeN O yaar!
anything new?
`tuum` ko uun sey vafa kee hai Ummeed
jo naheeN jaantay vafa kya hai.............Ghalib
Sateeza kaar raha hai Azal sey taa imrooz
Charaagh-i muustafavi sey charagh-i bu`lahabi..........Allama Iqbal.
Laakh Hakeem sr`b`jaib, eik Kaleem sr`b`kaf: Million intellectuals in the head; & just one Moses with a band around the head (ready to fight)..........Allama Iqbal.
IlmooN bUss kreeN O yaar!
anything new?
#245 Posted by mohar11 on July 9, 2006 9:54:50 am
Re: # 233
[...The powerful thing in this verse is that it recognises change can only be brought about by a few, not many....]
Not always.... sometimes changes are brought about by mass movements... one is going on in Nepal right now.... so not only this verse NOT powerful - it`s actually a false sermon... it is asking people to wait for messiahs - instead of making their own fate....
[...The powerful thing in this verse is that it recognises change can only be brought about by a few, not many....]
Not always.... sometimes changes are brought about by mass movements... one is going on in Nepal right now.... so not only this verse NOT powerful - it`s actually a false sermon... it is asking people to wait for messiahs - instead of making their own fate....
#244 Posted by bjk on July 9, 2006 9:44:17 am
Perhaps the author thinks that somebody simply misunderstands this “cleric” - bad poll numbers, of course!
Excerpted from The Sunday Times, July 9, 2007.
Joking Muslim cleric mocks victims of London blasts
A SPEECH by an extremist Muslim cleric praising the London bombers and mocking victims of suicide attacks has been broadcast on the internet to coincide with the anniversary of the July 7 attacks.
The audience laughs as Omar Brooks, a British Muslim convert who also uses the name Abu Izzadeen, makes fun of non-Muslims as “animals” and “cowards”.
Brooks — who has previously described the London bombers as “completely praiseworthy” — identifies with the views of Mohammad Sidique Khan, the ringleader of the London attacks.
He contrasts the supposed bravery of Khan’s suicide to the “kuffar” (non-Muslims) who are characterised as debauched binge-drinkers who vomit and urinate in the street.
The speech is peppered with jokes that bring laughter from his audience at the Small Heath youth and community centre in Birmingham, where it was filmed last Sunday.
At one point he announces dramatically that the September 11 attacks on the World Trade Center “changed many people’s lives”. After a pause, he brings the house down by adding: “Especially those inside.”
…..
The video of last Sunday’s speech was posted on the Al-Ghurabaa website ahead of Friday’s memorial service for the 52 people who were killed by the four suicide bombers.
Brooks is dismissive of calls for reconciliation. “I know as Friday approaches there will be many epitaphs and speeches and sermons, and maybe the archbishop of somewhere or other is going to come out and say, you know, we’ll call for peace around the world blah, blah, blah.
“But if we took the time to read Mohammad Sidique Khan’s will [the video confession broadcast after the attacks], we will see the answer for our problems.”
Khan, whose bomb killed six people on a Tube at Edgware Road, is held up as an example by Brooks because he didn’t fear death. “We’re talking about people who want to die the way you like to live,” he said.
#242 Posted by swarrier on July 9, 2006 5:13:26 am
Re: # 241
Aye Zeemax, but I don`t believe there is an Allah, or an Ishwar or the Holy Spirit or something like that in an image of man...
I like the unknown. And of course truth can be very unpalatable. But that is because we are used to believing that we are the pinnacle of existence.
But we could just be an accident of nature. Everything can exist without us, maybe for the better. -)
Aye Zeemax, but I don`t believe there is an Allah, or an Ishwar or the Holy Spirit or something like that in an image of man...
I like the unknown. And of course truth can be very unpalatable. But that is because we are used to believing that we are the pinnacle of existence.
But we could just be an accident of nature. Everything can exist without us, maybe for the better. -)
#241 Posted by zeemax on July 9, 2006 2:35:26 am
#238 by swarrier
Sidharata Gautam was the ultimate searcher of `truth`, but I think he found the truth too elusive to be found so he turned to negation of any truth as the ultimate truth. Only `self` and `now` were the truths for him. That is why the Tibetan culture will shrink to extinction in a few years.
Quran however resolves the problem here once and for all. Noone needs to meditate for the truth:
3:60 The truth (comes) from Allah alone; so be not of those who doubt.
That truth, includes a lot of unpalatable stuff ... but that is how it is and not only the believers, but non-beleievers ... and everyone else follows the same truths at one time or another, whether they write it down anywhere or not. So maybe these are indeed the `ultimate` truths. Islam just wrote these down in an in-the-face manner.
Sidharata Gautam was the ultimate searcher of `truth`, but I think he found the truth too elusive to be found so he turned to negation of any truth as the ultimate truth. Only `self` and `now` were the truths for him. That is why the Tibetan culture will shrink to extinction in a few years.
Quran however resolves the problem here once and for all. Noone needs to meditate for the truth:
3:60 The truth (comes) from Allah alone; so be not of those who doubt.
That truth, includes a lot of unpalatable stuff ... but that is how it is and not only the believers, but non-beleievers ... and everyone else follows the same truths at one time or another, whether they write it down anywhere or not. So maybe these are indeed the `ultimate` truths. Islam just wrote these down in an in-the-face manner.
#240 Posted by bjk on July 8, 2006 10:16:42 pm
There is a very practical reason while some individuals deliberately overlook the sordid deeds of fellow Islamists and carp on forever regarding the “evil west”!
It is called the sense of self-preservation.
They are aware of what happens to those who actually dare to speak out against such “fellows”! For example, how does one spell RUSH-DIE?!
A fatwa is not a good thing in life! Highly non-kosher!
So they select their targets “safely”! What they can get away with, or so they think!
The cowardly carpers are not really good at sticking their necks out when there is a chance that it may get chopped off!
#239 Posted by bjk on July 8, 2006 9:54:05 pm
#Article
Those darn commies are the worst serpents!
Those darn “Muslims are exclusive” Islamists are the worst serpents, too!
A combination of the two – is a total disaster! No matter what cloak it wears!
I believe that justice requires that such individuals should be forced to go and LIVE under the conditions of (1) an Islamic Republic, (2) a Communist dictatorship.
#238 Posted by swarrier on July 8, 2006 9:11:33 pm
Re: # 237
Anil , Zeemax
On, the quest for truth, inspiring the search for knowledge. You may know what these lines are the translation of
We contemplate the ultimate reality
That is in the earth, the sky, the heaven
Let us bring our minds to meditate in
The glory of the divine truth
May truth inspire our reflection.
Anil , Zeemax
On, the quest for truth, inspiring the search for knowledge. You may know what these lines are the translation of
We contemplate the ultimate reality
That is in the earth, the sky, the heaven
Let us bring our minds to meditate in
The glory of the divine truth
May truth inspire our reflection.
#237 Posted by anil on July 8, 2006 1:34:24 pm
Re: # 233
Zeemax:
The search for absolute truth has been going on from the day a human raised his / her head toward the sky and look at the Sun rising from the East and setting in the West, and asked how so... The first intellectuals rationalized and came with the answer that the Sun goes around the Earth, now of course hardly any intellectual believes so, instead believe the opposite that the Earth goes around the Sun.
Can you say the truth changed or the knowledge changed?
I would say that the knowledge changed and will continue to grow more and not less. The Universe is so simply big. Newton`s famous quote about he playing with marbles by the ocean is so apt.
Therefore, if someone or some book - doesn`t matter whose it is - puts a finality of human thoughts or knowledge in the name of some super imagination or being.... is bothersome and should be bothersome to all intelligent humans.
The example of the Earth and the Sun illustrates my point. When human knowledge evolved, beliefs evolved and changed.
Can you imagine, a world which was forced to believe that the Sun revolved around the Earth today?
No one could have hold humans back, the Church tried.... burned people alive on-stake. This I believe is the biggest challenge to Islam, its closeness and acceptance as absolute final truth. Especially when you just the abstractness of the single ayat, can unleash wars. Those who believe others must be forbidden, as it is sacntioned by this ayat.
Therefore, I do not believe the truth is important. Perception is more important. Increasing human knowledge is even more important. So that humans can continually improve knowledge and hence the search for ``the truth``, if you insist. This search could not have ended in the 7th century... may be for the nomads of Arabia. Certainly not for tomorrow`s Knowledge society.
Anil
Zeemax:
The search for absolute truth has been going on from the day a human raised his / her head toward the sky and look at the Sun rising from the East and setting in the West, and asked how so... The first intellectuals rationalized and came with the answer that the Sun goes around the Earth, now of course hardly any intellectual believes so, instead believe the opposite that the Earth goes around the Sun.
Can you say the truth changed or the knowledge changed?
I would say that the knowledge changed and will continue to grow more and not less. The Universe is so simply big. Newton`s famous quote about he playing with marbles by the ocean is so apt.
Therefore, if someone or some book - doesn`t matter whose it is - puts a finality of human thoughts or knowledge in the name of some super imagination or being.... is bothersome and should be bothersome to all intelligent humans.
The example of the Earth and the Sun illustrates my point. When human knowledge evolved, beliefs evolved and changed.
Can you imagine, a world which was forced to believe that the Sun revolved around the Earth today?
No one could have hold humans back, the Church tried.... burned people alive on-stake. This I believe is the biggest challenge to Islam, its closeness and acceptance as absolute final truth. Especially when you just the abstractness of the single ayat, can unleash wars. Those who believe others must be forbidden, as it is sacntioned by this ayat.
Therefore, I do not believe the truth is important. Perception is more important. Increasing human knowledge is even more important. So that humans can continually improve knowledge and hence the search for ``the truth``, if you insist. This search could not have ended in the 7th century... may be for the nomads of Arabia. Certainly not for tomorrow`s Knowledge society.
Anil
#236 Posted by zeemax on July 8, 2006 12:02:32 pm
#235 by arjun_m
Arjuna ... Arjuna ... how many times do I have to repeat this ... now listen and listen carefully. Terrorism has nothing to do with being Muslim or not. It is a battle tactic to bring about change, validated over and over. And .... terrorism i.e. blowing up things works!
The first terrorist was no other than T.E. Lawrence who used to blow up railway tracks ... and shoot at the hapless passengers trying to escape the derailed trains, and he won.
Then there was Menachem Begin, who also used to blow up a lot of things so much so that the British put up a reward on his head during their mandate .. but he won too and became Prime Minister ...
Then there were the biggest blower-ups of them all ... the IRA, who really used to blow up a hell of a lot of things. I went to Harrods to pick up my trousers one day in 1983 which I had purchased in the morning and left for hemming, but found out IRA had bombed the ground floor including the Men`s Store so I lost my trousers. They gave me another one but IRA won too ...
So, blowing up things wins!
Arjuna ... Arjuna ... how many times do I have to repeat this ... now listen and listen carefully. Terrorism has nothing to do with being Muslim or not. It is a battle tactic to bring about change, validated over and over. And .... terrorism i.e. blowing up things works!
The first terrorist was no other than T.E. Lawrence who used to blow up railway tracks ... and shoot at the hapless passengers trying to escape the derailed trains, and he won.
Then there was Menachem Begin, who also used to blow up a lot of things so much so that the British put up a reward on his head during their mandate .. but he won too and became Prime Minister ...
Then there were the biggest blower-ups of them all ... the IRA, who really used to blow up a hell of a lot of things. I went to Harrods to pick up my trousers one day in 1983 which I had purchased in the morning and left for hemming, but found out IRA had bombed the ground floor including the Men`s Store so I lost my trousers. They gave me another one but IRA won too ...
So, blowing up things wins!
#235 Posted by arjun_m on July 8, 2006 10:34:12 am
#231 by anil on July 8, 2006 9:05am PT
Who decides who and what is right
Muslims are right...Didn`t you read zeemax`s posts...he doesn`t think the perps of 9/11 or 7/7 were muslim..to the extent that he thinks terrorism is wrong, he think there is no way muslims can do it..i.e. muslims can do no wrong..
The US attacked Yugoslavia without a declaration of war and a security council resolution...Do you think he`s spinning conspiracy theories about that(other than the ones where the US deliberately let muslims die)?
Why do all his conspiracy theories arrive at the same conslusion: muslims are innocent..it`s a variation of the innocent until proven guilty jurisprudence..it`s the muslims ergo innocent school of jurisprudence..
Who decides who and what is right
Muslims are right...Didn`t you read zeemax`s posts...he doesn`t think the perps of 9/11 or 7/7 were muslim..to the extent that he thinks terrorism is wrong, he think there is no way muslims can do it..i.e. muslims can do no wrong..
The US attacked Yugoslavia without a declaration of war and a security council resolution...Do you think he`s spinning conspiracy theories about that(other than the ones where the US deliberately let muslims die)?
Why do all his conspiracy theories arrive at the same conslusion: muslims are innocent..it`s a variation of the innocent until proven guilty jurisprudence..it`s the muslims ergo innocent school of jurisprudence..
#234 Posted by zeemax on July 8, 2006 10:24:07 am
#228 by arjun_m
So ol`mo predicted the rise of the beatles..cool..
Perhaps he did. After all they did sing `Come Together` ...
So ol`mo predicted the rise of the beatles..cool..
Perhaps he did. After all they did sing `Come Together` ...
#233 Posted by zeemax on July 8, 2006 10:18:58 am
#229 by mohar11
The powerful thing in this verse is that it recognises change can only be brought about by a few, not many. This is a startling observation which has proven true over centuries but a surprising thing to say in 7th century given the great empires in existance at the time. It shows a trust in people`s ability, and motivates them. Then it goes on to promise of reward. All in two sentences.
#230 by masanamuthu
Yes I do mean the Jihadis. I think this verse is the primary motivation for them.
#231 by anil
Who decides who and what is right....
Fair question. You see there can only be ONE truth, not more than one. So where does one find that particular truth, or spend a lifetime searching and experimenting? On the other hand, the truths stated in Quran are actually what are the closest to reality including mayhem, murder, vengeance, war, cruelty, and so forth. Then there`s a lot of kindness as well, and concern for the underdog. That is what we see around us everyday. However there`s a vital difference. Islam asks a person to engage in all of the foregoing for the sake of the afterlife, not this one. That creates a certain selflessness in people who will do anything to attain that truth in the path of Allah. They make great revolutionaries.
Thanks for your kind comments. I have said many times on these boards that I am not a religious fanatic ... far from it. My best friends are jews and hindus who are closer to me than any muslim. I do not wear any goggles of bias or prejudice. I know all people are essentially the same and everyone bleeds when cut. But it is also in the nature of humans (as indeed in other species) to partake of the weak, perhaps dating back to the hunter-gatherer cultures. But that`s no way to live. If we are superior to animals in any way, then the big fish must not devour the small fish, otherwise there will be conflict and blood will flow. Period. I`m sure this planet can support the entire human race in an equitable fashion for a further few milleniums to come.
Of-course, notwithstanding Saima Shah`s fears of global warming:)
The powerful thing in this verse is that it recognises change can only be brought about by a few, not many. This is a startling observation which has proven true over centuries but a surprising thing to say in 7th century given the great empires in existance at the time. It shows a trust in people`s ability, and motivates them. Then it goes on to promise of reward. All in two sentences.
#230 by masanamuthu
Yes I do mean the Jihadis. I think this verse is the primary motivation for them.
#231 by anil
Who decides who and what is right....
Fair question. You see there can only be ONE truth, not more than one. So where does one find that particular truth, or spend a lifetime searching and experimenting? On the other hand, the truths stated in Quran are actually what are the closest to reality including mayhem, murder, vengeance, war, cruelty, and so forth. Then there`s a lot of kindness as well, and concern for the underdog. That is what we see around us everyday. However there`s a vital difference. Islam asks a person to engage in all of the foregoing for the sake of the afterlife, not this one. That creates a certain selflessness in people who will do anything to attain that truth in the path of Allah. They make great revolutionaries.
Thanks for your kind comments. I have said many times on these boards that I am not a religious fanatic ... far from it. My best friends are jews and hindus who are closer to me than any muslim. I do not wear any goggles of bias or prejudice. I know all people are essentially the same and everyone bleeds when cut. But it is also in the nature of humans (as indeed in other species) to partake of the weak, perhaps dating back to the hunter-gatherer cultures. But that`s no way to live. If we are superior to animals in any way, then the big fish must not devour the small fish, otherwise there will be conflict and blood will flow. Period. I`m sure this planet can support the entire human race in an equitable fashion for a further few milleniums to come.
Of-course, notwithstanding Saima Shah`s fears of global warming:)
#232 Posted by echoboom on July 8, 2006 9:44:43 am
A liberating veil?
One thing you can safely guess about the burqa: It`s hot at this time of year Beyond that, GTA women who don it may defy your assumptions, writes Heba Aly
The Toronto star: July 8, 2006
Jul. 8, 2006. 03:55 AM
HEBA ALY
STAFF REPORTER
Like other mothers, Halima Mirza takes her children to the museum, on camping trips, and to the beach.
And she does it all wearing a burqa — a garment that has provoked curiosity, dismay and even suspicion as news events have forced conservative Muslim women into the media spotlight.
The head-to-toe covering might be hot in July, but Mirza says it doesn`t stop her from living her life. She has non-Muslim friends, goes out in public and even wears jeans, tank tops and makeup — under the garment.
``I don`t know why people have the idea that we`re oppressed,`` she says in perfect English, the language she uses with her children. ``We do everything ... we have fun.``
The 32-year-old mother of four started wearing the garb in her late teens, in gradual steps: first the hijab, a scarf covering the head. Then the jilbab, a long, loose coat-like garment. Finally, the niqab, a veil covering the face. Now, the combination — often referred to as the burqa when combined with mesh covering the eyes — might as well be part of her body, she says.
``I wouldn`t take my hijab off for anything.``
Why the attachment to a piece of cloth widely viewed as a symbol of the subjugation of women?
``I felt the importance of it, the obligation of it,`` she says. ``A Muslim woman is supposed to cover her hair, her body.
``It`s for your own protection. It`s for your modesty.``
Yet some Muslim women in the West say the burqa is less a symbol of class than an individual spiritual choice.
When Madihah Yarkhan, a 21-year-old psychology graduate from the University of Toronto, decided to cover her face in her last year of high school, her parents tried to talk her out of it. They worried that people would look at her differently.
She had been wearing a headscarf since she was young and wanted to take ``that extra step.``
Yarkhan agrees that it`s not absolutely required, ``but it`s just something I wanted to do, that level I wanted to reach.``
Back at high school in September, she approached her teacher and said, ``Miss, guess who?``
``It`s Madihah,`` her teacher replied.
``How did you know?``
``Of course! I know you by your eyes.``
And so it was. She was the first to wear the veil in her North York school. While it took some getting used to, she says she didn`t get any negative attention. In fact, ``a lot of non-Muslims supported me more than extended family members.``
For Bullock, the University of Toronto lecturer, the decision to wear a headscarf was much more difficult.
An immigrant from Australia, and an atheist at the time, she was ``quite hostile`` to the concept when she first engaged in conversation with Muslims in her master`s program.
They were ``such nice, friendly people`` that she began to question the image she had of them. ``I started to wonder why there were people in the modern world that still believed in God.``
When she got engaged to a Muslim man, her intrigue grew. Despite a temporary return to church, she was drawn to Islam ``like a moth to a flame,`` which scared her tremendously.
She tried to fight it, until ``finally, I couldn`t resist anymore.``
She converted a year and a half after marrying, but felt ``depressed`` that she would have to wear the hijab because she believed it was obligatory.
Wearing it around campus drew some hostility, she says.
``I was a very strong feminist. They just couldn`t fathom it.``
But as time passed, she found links between the hijab and her feminism.
``I explain it as a release from the pressures of the consumer-capitalist society that we live in,`` she says. ``Women`s bodies are put up as commodities, to help sell anything from cars to fridges to cigarettes.
``By covering up, I felt liberated from those pressures. I didn`t have to be thin. I didn`t have to be beautiful. My beauty was now a private thing; it was not for public consumption.``
This transition had all the more impact because she had always had anxieties about her body, leading to ``borderline anorexia`` and low self-esteem, Bullock said.
``It gives me more courage and confidence as a woman,`` says Yarkhan. ``It`s actually the opposite of oppression. I feel liberated when I wear it.``
Yarkhan, Bullock and Mirza recognize that in some places the burqa or hijab are not choices. But they insist that`s not the case in Canada, where the garments take many forms. They say it`s a matter of spirituality.
Emon argues it might be more than that.
``Yarkhan agrees her niqab shapes her identity as a Muslim. But when she`s out having a picnic or driving a car, and especially when she`s ice skating, ``I consider myself just as Canadian as anyone else.``
One thing you can safely guess about the burqa: It`s hot at this time of year Beyond that, GTA women who don it may defy your assumptions, writes Heba Aly
The Toronto star: July 8, 2006
Jul. 8, 2006. 03:55 AM
HEBA ALY
STAFF REPORTER
Like other mothers, Halima Mirza takes her children to the museum, on camping trips, and to the beach.
And she does it all wearing a burqa — a garment that has provoked curiosity, dismay and even suspicion as news events have forced conservative Muslim women into the media spotlight.
The head-to-toe covering might be hot in July, but Mirza says it doesn`t stop her from living her life. She has non-Muslim friends, goes out in public and even wears jeans, tank tops and makeup — under the garment.
``I don`t know why people have the idea that we`re oppressed,`` she says in perfect English, the language she uses with her children. ``We do everything ... we have fun.``
The 32-year-old mother of four started wearing the garb in her late teens, in gradual steps: first the hijab, a scarf covering the head. Then the jilbab, a long, loose coat-like garment. Finally, the niqab, a veil covering the face. Now, the combination — often referred to as the burqa when combined with mesh covering the eyes — might as well be part of her body, she says.
``I wouldn`t take my hijab off for anything.``
Why the attachment to a piece of cloth widely viewed as a symbol of the subjugation of women?
``I felt the importance of it, the obligation of it,`` she says. ``A Muslim woman is supposed to cover her hair, her body.
``It`s for your own protection. It`s for your modesty.``
Yet some Muslim women in the West say the burqa is less a symbol of class than an individual spiritual choice.
When Madihah Yarkhan, a 21-year-old psychology graduate from the University of Toronto, decided to cover her face in her last year of high school, her parents tried to talk her out of it. They worried that people would look at her differently.
She had been wearing a headscarf since she was young and wanted to take ``that extra step.``
Yarkhan agrees that it`s not absolutely required, ``but it`s just something I wanted to do, that level I wanted to reach.``
Back at high school in September, she approached her teacher and said, ``Miss, guess who?``
``It`s Madihah,`` her teacher replied.
``How did you know?``
``Of course! I know you by your eyes.``
And so it was. She was the first to wear the veil in her North York school. While it took some getting used to, she says she didn`t get any negative attention. In fact, ``a lot of non-Muslims supported me more than extended family members.``
For Bullock, the University of Toronto lecturer, the decision to wear a headscarf was much more difficult.
An immigrant from Australia, and an atheist at the time, she was ``quite hostile`` to the concept when she first engaged in conversation with Muslims in her master`s program.
They were ``such nice, friendly people`` that she began to question the image she had of them. ``I started to wonder why there were people in the modern world that still believed in God.``
When she got engaged to a Muslim man, her intrigue grew. Despite a temporary return to church, she was drawn to Islam ``like a moth to a flame,`` which scared her tremendously.
She tried to fight it, until ``finally, I couldn`t resist anymore.``
She converted a year and a half after marrying, but felt ``depressed`` that she would have to wear the hijab because she believed it was obligatory.
Wearing it around campus drew some hostility, she says.
``I was a very strong feminist. They just couldn`t fathom it.``
But as time passed, she found links between the hijab and her feminism.
``I explain it as a release from the pressures of the consumer-capitalist society that we live in,`` she says. ``Women`s bodies are put up as commodities, to help sell anything from cars to fridges to cigarettes.
``By covering up, I felt liberated from those pressures. I didn`t have to be thin. I didn`t have to be beautiful. My beauty was now a private thing; it was not for public consumption.``
This transition had all the more impact because she had always had anxieties about her body, leading to ``borderline anorexia`` and low self-esteem, Bullock said.
``It gives me more courage and confidence as a woman,`` says Yarkhan. ``It`s actually the opposite of oppression. I feel liberated when I wear it.``
Yarkhan, Bullock and Mirza recognize that in some places the burqa or hijab are not choices. But they insist that`s not the case in Canada, where the garments take many forms. They say it`s a matter of spirituality.
Emon argues it might be more than that.
``Yarkhan agrees her niqab shapes her identity as a Muslim. But when she`s out having a picnic or driving a car, and especially when she`s ice skating, ``I consider myself just as Canadian as anyone else.``
#231 Posted by anil on July 8, 2006 9:05:44 am
Re: # 227
Zeemax Sahib:
``3:104 Let there arise out of you a band of people inviting to all that is good, enjoining what is right, and forbidding what is wrong: They are the ones to attain felicity.``
Who decides who and what is right.... certainly Osama Bin Ladin thinks he is, and who decideds who and what is wrong, certainly Bush things Osama Bin Ladin is wrong and should be forbidden.
Can you not see the problem with such a abstract verse..... can you not?
Anil
BTW, I do appreciate your commitment to your thoughts and cause.
Zeemax Sahib:
``3:104 Let there arise out of you a band of people inviting to all that is good, enjoining what is right, and forbidding what is wrong: They are the ones to attain felicity.``
Who decides who and what is right.... certainly Osama Bin Ladin thinks he is, and who decideds who and what is wrong, certainly Bush things Osama Bin Ladin is wrong and should be forbidden.
Can you not see the problem with such a abstract verse..... can you not?
Anil
BTW, I do appreciate your commitment to your thoughts and cause.
#230 Posted by masanamuthu on July 8, 2006 8:57:33 am
Re: # 229 mohar
.. What`s so ``powerful`` about that verse 3:104?.....
I think `zee` implies the verse applies to `jihadis`.. But i believe it also equally applies to the `gang of Bush`.. It`d be nice to watch the battle though.. :-)
.. What`s so ``powerful`` about that verse 3:104?.....
I think `zee` implies the verse applies to `jihadis`.. But i believe it also equally applies to the `gang of Bush`.. It`d be nice to watch the battle though.. :-)
#229 Posted by mohar11 on July 8, 2006 8:49:01 am
Re: # 227 zee
What`s so ``powerful`` about that verse 3:104?.....
What`s so ``powerful`` about that verse 3:104?.....
#228 Posted by arjun_m on July 8, 2006 6:16:55 am
#227 by zeemax on July 8, 2006 0:36am PT
3:104 Let there arise out of you a band of people
So ol`mo predicted the rise of the beatles..cool..
3:104 Let there arise out of you a band of people
So ol`mo predicted the rise of the beatles..cool..
#227 Posted by zeemax on July 8, 2006 12:36:19 am
#212 by mohar11
But so far - we don`t see no utopia yet.... the alternate system ain`t working.... 7th-century texts don`t make 21st-century nations....
Well .. this 7th century text seems pretty powerful stuff to me ...
3:104 Let there arise out of you a band of people inviting to all that is good, enjoining what is right, and forbidding what is wrong: They are the ones to attain felicity.
But so far - we don`t see no utopia yet.... the alternate system ain`t working.... 7th-century texts don`t make 21st-century nations....
Well .. this 7th century text seems pretty powerful stuff to me ...
3:104 Let there arise out of you a band of people inviting to all that is good, enjoining what is right, and forbidding what is wrong: They are the ones to attain felicity.
#226 Posted by zeemax on July 8, 2006 12:26:09 am
This, is why a re-establishment of order is needed.
An Israeli army bulldozer razes Palestinian greenhouses Thursday as part of the military operation in northern Gaza.
Are Palestenian greenhouses a threat to Israel? Probably not but Palestenians are. Therefore a genocide continues ...
#225 Posted by zeemax on July 8, 2006 12:19:57 am
#220 by dullabhatti
...in year 1999 who was crying tears of blood because his beloved country was taken hostage by a tin pot dictator ...
Yes. And nothing has changed since then, has it? Things have become progressively worse. That is what I mean by a re-establishment of the order having become an indispensible necessity for the sustenance of the common Abdul and others like him. This re-establishing cannot be done by earlier revolutionary forces which have since been defeated and have lost credibility. It can however be done by these new forces which have all the necessary ingredients. Nothing fanatical about that. I`m not a fanatic by a mile.
As for Mr. Tanweer, whether he is or is not in that picture has no bearing on whether picture no 3 is the same person as 1 & 2. You are avoiding the question which I posed as did everyone else. Noone has so far come out and said that it is the same person, but merely obfuscating and obscuring the issue through circular reasoning and false dilemmas.
...in year 1999 who was crying tears of blood because his beloved country was taken hostage by a tin pot dictator ...
Yes. And nothing has changed since then, has it? Things have become progressively worse. That is what I mean by a re-establishment of the order having become an indispensible necessity for the sustenance of the common Abdul and others like him. This re-establishing cannot be done by earlier revolutionary forces which have since been defeated and have lost credibility. It can however be done by these new forces which have all the necessary ingredients. Nothing fanatical about that. I`m not a fanatic by a mile.
As for Mr. Tanweer, whether he is or is not in that picture has no bearing on whether picture no 3 is the same person as 1 & 2. You are avoiding the question which I posed as did everyone else. Noone has so far come out and said that it is the same person, but merely obfuscating and obscuring the issue through circular reasoning and false dilemmas.
#224 Posted by zeemax on July 8, 2006 12:00:08 am
#220 by dullabhatti
...in year 1999 who was crying tears of blood because his beloved country was taken hostage by a tin pot dictator ...
Yes. And nothing has changed since then, has it? Things have become progressively worse. That is what I mean by a re-establishment of the order having become an indispensible necessity for the sustenance of the common Abdul and others like him. This re-establishing cannot be done by earlier revolutionary forces which have since been defeated and have lost credibility. It can however be done by these new forces which have all the necessary ingredients. Nothing fanatical about that. I`m not a fanatic by a mile.
As for Mr. Tanweer, whether he is or is not in that picture has no bearing on whether picture no 3 is the same person as 1 & 2. You are avoiding the question which I posed as did everyone else. Noone has so far come out and said that it is the same person, but merely obfuscating and obscuring the issue through circular reasoning and false dilemmas.
...in year 1999 who was crying tears of blood because his beloved country was taken hostage by a tin pot dictator ...
Yes. And nothing has changed since then, has it? Things have become progressively worse. That is what I mean by a re-establishment of the order having become an indispensible necessity for the sustenance of the common Abdul and others like him. This re-establishing cannot be done by earlier revolutionary forces which have since been defeated and have lost credibility. It can however be done by these new forces which have all the necessary ingredients. Nothing fanatical about that. I`m not a fanatic by a mile.
As for Mr. Tanweer, whether he is or is not in that picture has no bearing on whether picture no 3 is the same person as 1 & 2. You are avoiding the question which I posed as did everyone else. Noone has so far come out and said that it is the same person, but merely obfuscating and obscuring the issue through circular reasoning and false dilemmas.
#223 Posted by masanamuthu on July 7, 2006 4:23:31 pm
.. That`s because ``your rabid haters`` are out planning terrorist attacks and being busted in Virginia, California, Maryland, Ohio, UK, Australia and Iraq.
Trust me..The non-paki world would rather ``your rabid haters`` come to chowk and vent instead of planning to blow up subways or set of chemical devices or behead the Canadian PM or poison beer..
LOL.. well said..
Trust me..The non-paki world would rather ``your rabid haters`` come to chowk and vent instead of planning to blow up subways or set of chemical devices or behead the Canadian PM or poison beer..
LOL.. well said..
#222 Posted by dullabhatti on July 7, 2006 3:56:16 pm
CAIRO, Egypt - One of the four suicide bombers who attacked London a year ago appeared on an Internet video Friday accusing his country of declaring war on Islam and oppressing Muslims in Palestine, Afghanistan, Iraq and Chechnya.
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``For the non-Muslims in Britain, you may wonder what you have done to deserve this,`` Shehzad Tanweer told Britons on the tape, an excerpt of which was broadcast on the pan-Arab satellite channel Al-Jazeera on Thursday.
Britons continue to oppress ``our mothers and children, brothers and sisters from the east to the west in Palestine, Afghanistan, Iraq and Chechnya,`` he said, speaking with a thick north English accent.
``Your government has openly support for the genocide of more than 150,000 innocent Muslims in Fallujah,`` he said, referring to the west Iraqi town where U.S. forces fought Islamic militants for several weeks.
``You have openly declared war on Islam,`` he added.
Glancing down at his text, which was off-camera, Tanweer said: ``I tell every British citizen to stop your support to your lying British government and to the so-called war on terror. And ask yourselves: why would thousands of men be ready to give their lives for the cause of Muslims?.``
Tanweer, 22, killed seven people and himself aboard a London Underground train on July 7, 2005. All four of the July 7 suicide bombers were British.
At the Tanweer family home in Beeston, West Yorkshire, 200 miles north of London, a front window bore a sign Friday telling journalists to stay away. [they seem to recognize their son..atleats they are not in denial]
After an excerpt of the tape appeared on Al-Jazeera on Thursday, a friend of the family, Irshad Hussain, said Tanweer`s relatives would be ``devastated`` to see the video.
``What you have witnessed now is only the beginning of a series of attacks that will continue and increase in strength until you withdraw your soldiers from Afghanistan and Iraq,`` Tanweer said in the excerpt broadcast Thursday.
ADVERTISEMENT
``For the non-Muslims in Britain, you may wonder what you have done to deserve this,`` Shehzad Tanweer told Britons on the tape, an excerpt of which was broadcast on the pan-Arab satellite channel Al-Jazeera on Thursday.
Britons continue to oppress ``our mothers and children, brothers and sisters from the east to the west in Palestine, Afghanistan, Iraq and Chechnya,`` he said, speaking with a thick north English accent.
``Your government has openly support for the genocide of more than 150,000 innocent Muslims in Fallujah,`` he said, referring to the west Iraqi town where U.S. forces fought Islamic militants for several weeks.
``You have openly declared war on Islam,`` he added.
Glancing down at his text, which was off-camera, Tanweer said: ``I tell every British citizen to stop your support to your lying British government and to the so-called war on terror. And ask yourselves: why would thousands of men be ready to give their lives for the cause of Muslims?.``
Tanweer, 22, killed seven people and himself aboard a London Underground train on July 7, 2005. All four of the July 7 suicide bombers were British.
At the Tanweer family home in Beeston, West Yorkshire, 200 miles north of London, a front window bore a sign Friday telling journalists to stay away. [they seem to recognize their son..atleats they are not in denial]
After an excerpt of the tape appeared on Al-Jazeera on Thursday, a friend of the family, Irshad Hussain, said Tanweer`s relatives would be ``devastated`` to see the video.
``What you have witnessed now is only the beginning of a series of attacks that will continue and increase in strength until you withdraw your soldiers from Afghanistan and Iraq,`` Tanweer said in the excerpt broadcast Thursday.
#221 Posted by kedarnathji on July 7, 2006 3:43:07 pm
#218 by Netizen on July 7, 2006 2:10pm PT
I believe that 13% and 7% are part of that 16%. Some of them who stand by them (7/16) also feel that violence against British civilians is justified and some of them (13/16) who stand by them believe in these guys are martyrs. Anyway, 16% itself is a very high and instead of try to sugar-coat this sh!t it would be better if the Islamic community pondered upon it. See my post #164 where I have responded to Irena.
I believe that 13% and 7% are part of that 16%. Some of them who stand by them (7/16) also feel that violence against British civilians is justified and some of them (13/16) who stand by them believe in these guys are martyrs. Anyway, 16% itself is a very high and instead of try to sugar-coat this sh!t it would be better if the Islamic community pondered upon it. See my post #164 where I have responded to Irena.
#220 Posted by dullabhatti on July 7, 2006 3:42:15 pm
Zeemax`s #76:
Zeeemax, sir there was a video recording that came out (probably from your country) on the web yesterday where al-Zawahri made some claims about Shehzaad Tanweer and the guy in your post. Do you think it is a genuine video? do you think the person in the video is al-Zawahri? or you think it is some Natha Singh from Jalandhar posing as al-Zawahiri?
Secondly, in the same video Tanwee is clearly stating his jihadi proclaimations. Do you think it is Shehzaad Tanweer or someone else? If you think it is someone else, why so? also, it is only you who have made this claim about the person in photo not being Siddique...can you spport your claim from say their families?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060707/ap_on_re_mi_ea/britain_bombings_video_3;_ylt=AhShbIfpJc_JebvMx9iuof29Q5gv;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl
here is exceprt froma report from London:
``After an excerpt of the tape appeared on Al-Jazeera on Thursday, a friend of the family, Irshad Hussain, said Tanweer`s relatives would be ``devastated`` to see the video.
``What you have witnessed now is only the beginning of a series of attacks that will continue and increase in strength until you withdraw your soldiers from Afghanistan and Iraq,`` Tanweer said in the excerpt broadcast Thursday.
``
So is Irshad hussein wrong in identifying Tanweer? is he is show us some claims from his family or close friends saying this guy on video is not Tanweer.
Sir, I stil remember a guy on Chowk named Zeemax in year 1999 who was crying tears of blood because his beloved country was taken hostage by a tin pot dictator from their army. In respect of that Zeemax, I humbly ask you to take this fanatical veil off your face and open you eyes...denials won`t take you any where.
Zeeemax, sir there was a video recording that came out (probably from your country) on the web yesterday where al-Zawahri made some claims about Shehzaad Tanweer and the guy in your post. Do you think it is a genuine video? do you think the person in the video is al-Zawahri? or you think it is some Natha Singh from Jalandhar posing as al-Zawahiri?
Secondly, in the same video Tanwee is clearly stating his jihadi proclaimations. Do you think it is Shehzaad Tanweer or someone else? If you think it is someone else, why so? also, it is only you who have made this claim about the person in photo not being Siddique...can you spport your claim from say their families?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060707/ap_on_re_mi_ea/britain_bombings_video_3;_ylt=AhShbIfpJc_JebvMx9iuof29Q5gv;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl
here is exceprt froma report from London:
``After an excerpt of the tape appeared on Al-Jazeera on Thursday, a friend of the family, Irshad Hussain, said Tanweer`s relatives would be ``devastated`` to see the video.
``What you have witnessed now is only the beginning of a series of attacks that will continue and increase in strength until you withdraw your soldiers from Afghanistan and Iraq,`` Tanweer said in the excerpt broadcast Thursday.
``
So is Irshad hussein wrong in identifying Tanweer? is he is show us some claims from his family or close friends saying this guy on video is not Tanweer.
Sir, I stil remember a guy on Chowk named Zeemax in year 1999 who was crying tears of blood because his beloved country was taken hostage by a tin pot dictator from their army. In respect of that Zeemax, I humbly ask you to take this fanatical veil off your face and open you eyes...denials won`t take you any where.
#219 Posted by mohar11 on July 7, 2006 2:13:33 pm
Re: # 214 echo
Looks like france and britain have large percentages... good going folks - so many years before the french and the brits are conquered by islam?...
Looks like france and britain have large percentages... good going folks - so many years before the french and the brits are conquered by islam?...
#218 Posted by Netizen on July 7, 2006 2:10:13 pm
Re: # 213
swarrier:
``The headline could well have been, “64 per cent UK Muslims against London bombers”. (The report added that 13 percent of the Muslims polled thought the bombers were martyrs while seven percent felt suicide attacks on British civilians were justified in some circumstances.) Agreed 16 per cent is a large chunk of people and 36 per cent is even larger but isn`t 64 per cent the largest of all and that it deserves to be the headline? ``
above is the arithmetic.
its 16+ 13+7 =36 ................. who stand by+ call them matyrs + feel justified.
64 % are against not 84.
isn`t it irena?
swarrier:
``The headline could well have been, “64 per cent UK Muslims against London bombers”. (The report added that 13 percent of the Muslims polled thought the bombers were martyrs while seven percent felt suicide attacks on British civilians were justified in some circumstances.) Agreed 16 per cent is a large chunk of people and 36 per cent is even larger but isn`t 64 per cent the largest of all and that it deserves to be the headline? ``
above is the arithmetic.
its 16+ 13+7 =36 ................. who stand by+ call them matyrs + feel justified.
64 % are against not 84.
isn`t it irena?
#217 Posted by arjun_m on July 7, 2006 2:03:41 pm
#182 by tahmed32 on July 7, 2006 11:38am PT
All I can say is that, despite my differences on issues with fellow Pakistanis on chowk, I am very proud of the fact that we dont have such rabid haters of any community of people on chowk in our midst.
That`s because ``your rabid haters`` are out planning terrorist attacks and being busted in Virginia, California, Maryland, Ohio, UK, Australia and Iraq.
Trust me..The non-paki world would rather ``your rabid haters`` come to chowk and vent instead of planning to blow up subways or set of chemical devices or behead the Canadian PM or poison beer..
All I can say is that, despite my differences on issues with fellow Pakistanis on chowk, I am very proud of the fact that we dont have such rabid haters of any community of people on chowk in our midst.
That`s because ``your rabid haters`` are out planning terrorist attacks and being busted in Virginia, California, Maryland, Ohio, UK, Australia and Iraq.
Trust me..The non-paki world would rather ``your rabid haters`` come to chowk and vent instead of planning to blow up subways or set of chemical devices or behead the Canadian PM or poison beer..
#216 Posted by mohar11 on July 7, 2006 2:02:02 pm
Re: # 213 sw
[...Tahmed never said that the train/bus bombers were nice folks...]
correct... nobody does, not in public.... His theory of ``86% do not support`` is good on paper.... in practice - it doesn`t cut it... There is a good article in today`s WSJ on that... how the 86% actually behave - the author calls it the ``yes-but-however`` syndrome.... yes bus-bombing is bad.... but it`s because of this and that..... however it will continue if the west doesn`t do such and such....
[...Tahmed never said that the train/bus bombers were nice folks...]
correct... nobody does, not in public.... His theory of ``86% do not support`` is good on paper.... in practice - it doesn`t cut it... There is a good article in today`s WSJ on that... how the 86% actually behave - the author calls it the ``yes-but-however`` syndrome.... yes bus-bombing is bad.... but it`s because of this and that..... however it will continue if the west doesn`t do such and such....
#215 Posted by echoboom on July 7, 2006 2:00:39 pm
#214 Posted by echoboom on July 7, 2006 1:51:21 pm
S`rashk-e chashm-e muslim meiN hai NaisaaN kaa asar paida
Khaleel Allah kay daryaa meiN hogay phir guhur paida
Kitaab-i millat-i baiza kee phir sheeraza bandi hai
Yeh shaakh-i Hashmi krnay ko hai phir br`g O b`r paida.....Allama Iqbal
and
Dabaa rakhhaa hai iss ko zakhma-var kee cheera dastee nay
bohut neechay suuroaN meiN hai abhee europe ka vaavaila...........Allama Iqbal.
ENJOY!
Islam in europe: Click on the country on the map.
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/12757599/
Khaleel Allah kay daryaa meiN hogay phir guhur paida
Kitaab-i millat-i baiza kee phir sheeraza bandi hai
Yeh shaakh-i Hashmi krnay ko hai phir br`g O b`r paida.....Allama Iqbal
and
Dabaa rakhhaa hai iss ko zakhma-var kee cheera dastee nay
bohut neechay suuroaN meiN hai abhee europe ka vaavaila...........Allama Iqbal.
ENJOY!
Islam in europe: Click on the country on the map.
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/12757599/
#213 Posted by swarrier on July 7, 2006 1:50:34 pm
Re: # 210
Damn , I`m begining to sound very tolerant which I`m not . -)
Mohar, Tahmed never said that the train/bus bombers were nice folks. He`s just cribbing that the 86% who don`t support them don`t receive fair press.
Then it gets into the usual Hindu Muslim bashing. So now each post merits it`s own answer and not as a part of the chain.
The big thing is what do the 84% do because they may be the only people that the 16% of potential twits listen to.
Damn , I`m begining to sound very tolerant which I`m not . -)
Mohar, Tahmed never said that the train/bus bombers were nice folks. He`s just cribbing that the 86% who don`t support them don`t receive fair press.
Then it gets into the usual Hindu Muslim bashing. So now each post merits it`s own answer and not as a part of the chain.
The big thing is what do the 84% do because they may be the only people that the 16% of potential twits listen to.
#212 Posted by mohar11 on July 7, 2006 1:46:48 pm
Re: # 184 zee
[...There is no land run according to Islam....]
Not true..... Saudis are running according to islam... pakis are getting there, starting from north-west side... Iran is running on islam for 30+ years... last heard - malaysia is thinking about it - indonesia too.... And if things go on the way they are - some parts of canuckistan will run on islam.....
But so far - we don`t see no utopia yet.... the alternate system ain`t working.... 7th-century texts don`t make 21st-century nations.... no matter how many tunnels you blow up....
[...There is no land run according to Islam....]
Not true..... Saudis are running according to islam... pakis are getting there, starting from north-west side... Iran is running on islam for 30+ years... last heard - malaysia is thinking about it - indonesia too.... And if things go on the way they are - some parts of canuckistan will run on islam.....
But so far - we don`t see no utopia yet.... the alternate system ain`t working.... 7th-century texts don`t make 21st-century nations.... no matter how many tunnels you blow up....
#211 Posted by Indian007 on July 7, 2006 1:41:58 pm
Also Irena...tell me, what is more dangerous to India ? Hindutwa or Muslims ? Atleast fascist hindutwavadis dont cheer for Pakistan at cricket....Atleast hindutwavaadis dont give shelter to spies and terrorists from Pakistan......atleast hindutwavaadis dont plant bombs in school buses and public places......
.........Indian muslims on the other hand, are well known for doing all of the above.
As much as you hate Narendra Modi and gang, you and your people are a much greater threat to India and its people. What do you think ?
Dont you think you people will be happier in Pakistan , the Land of The Pure ? What are you doing in our idol worshipping polythest kufr country ?
.........Indian muslims on the other hand, are well known for doing all of the above.
As much as you hate Narendra Modi and gang, you and your people are a much greater threat to India and its people. What do you think ?
Dont you think you people will be happier in Pakistan , the Land of The Pure ? What are you doing in our idol worshipping polythest kufr country ?
#210 Posted by mohar11 on July 7, 2006 1:35:08 pm
Re: # 208
swarrier, if I may - takhmed is a known self-righteous jacka##.... I mean - even if the hindu men in chowk are all evil-incarnate - so what?.... it`s not hinuds who are in this clash of civilization... it`s not them blowing up tunnels, buildings, subways.... they are not thumping 7-century texts as ``alternate systems``..... they don`t participate in global jihad against civilized nations.... muslims do... hinud men in chowk are just pointing the obvious fact....
takhmed cant handle the truth- that`s not hinud men`s fault....
swarrier, if I may - takhmed is a known self-righteous jacka##.... I mean - even if the hindu men in chowk are all evil-incarnate - so what?.... it`s not hinuds who are in this clash of civilization... it`s not them blowing up tunnels, buildings, subways.... they are not thumping 7-century texts as ``alternate systems``..... they don`t participate in global jihad against civilized nations.... muslims do... hinud men in chowk are just pointing the obvious fact....
takhmed cant handle the truth- that`s not hinud men`s fault....
#209 Posted by Indian007 on July 7, 2006 1:32:26 pm
Irena Akbar - since you claim to be an Indian muslim , can you tell what is the % of Indian muslim population that cheers for Pakistan when India-Pakistan play cricket ?
#208 Posted by swarrier on July 7, 2006 1:23:19 pm
Re: # 197
Tahmed
Somewhere on this board our wires have been crossed. I did not say you abused me. The context was that any amount of haranguing on message boards (either in the form of posts or abuse) w ill rarely change set opinions of people like echo, masadi , me , arjun, you etc.
I ain`t defending Arjun, he`s a grown lad and can do that himself.
Believe me all Arjuns are evil. My younger son is also Arjun and he`s given us a heck of a lot more trouble than the older one. They come armed with the Gandiva and Deva-datta. -)
Tahmed
Somewhere on this board our wires have been crossed. I did not say you abused me. The context was that any amount of haranguing on message boards (either in the form of posts or abuse) w ill rarely change set opinions of people like echo, masadi , me , arjun, you etc.
I ain`t defending Arjun, he`s a grown lad and can do that himself.
Believe me all Arjuns are evil. My younger son is also Arjun and he`s given us a heck of a lot more trouble than the older one. They come armed with the Gandiva and Deva-datta. -)
#207 Posted by mohar11 on July 7, 2006 1:12:49 pm
Re: # 198 mullah32
Did I ever let you down... keep counting...
Did I ever let you down... keep counting...
#206 Posted by Netizen on July 7, 2006 1:10:29 pm
Re: # 205
tahmed:
you can`t do this to me again :(
tell us about how righteous you are and answer #201.
why are you running away from answering such a simple question.........
tahmed:
you can`t do this to me again :(
tell us about how righteous you are and answer #201.
why are you running away from answering such a simple question.........
#205 Posted by tahmed32 on July 7, 2006 1:07:18 pm
ok all you brilliant products of india. i have had enough of your wisdom, or lack thereof, and have things to attend to. pulling honest answers out of you is like pulling hens teeth - there arent any there.
#204 Posted by Netizen on July 7, 2006 1:06:47 pm
Re: # 202
so you have your answer.
now answer #201.
be quick don`t take much time
so you have your answer.
now answer #201.
be quick don`t take much time
#203 Posted by Netizen on July 7, 2006 1:04:42 pm
Re: # 200
tahmed:
i stand by that word. yes i truly believe that islamist are homicidal jihadis, just look at zeemax.
i thought that your nimble mind thought that a ``hindu mind`` came up with that word. but sadly no, it didn`t. i just didn`t want to take the credit of using the word first time because it was used by some one else. i wish i have coined it though. maybe next time.
tahmed:
i stand by that word. yes i truly believe that islamist are homicidal jihadis, just look at zeemax.
i thought that your nimble mind thought that a ``hindu mind`` came up with that word. but sadly no, it didn`t. i just didn`t want to take the credit of using the word first time because it was used by some one else. i wish i have coined it though. maybe next time.
#202 Posted by tahmed32 on July 7, 2006 1:02:28 pm
#199 and dont try to change the subject either. either stand by your equation of islamic with homicidal. or acknowledge that no one taught you any better and maybe it is time you start learning for yourself not to demonize other communities.
#201 Posted by Netizen on July 7, 2006 1:01:05 pm
Re: # 199
tahmed:
lets see how moral and upright person you are:
do you, as a person of age of reason, condone or condemn such activity....like banging a maid
tahmed:
lets see how moral and upright person you are:
do you, as a person of age of reason, condone or condemn such activity....like banging a maid
#200 Posted by tahmed32 on July 7, 2006 12:59:02 pm
netizen: it is not nonsense to point out that when you use a word, it is coming from you. you cant weasel out of it by claiming ``others`` say it. what are you then if you refuse to stand by your own words? a mindless tape recorder that simply replays what is recorded? or a parrot maybe??
#199 Posted by Netizen on July 7, 2006 12:58:57 pm
tahmed:
more on my words that i stand by:
mo was the gangleader of the kabila and the biggest homicidal jihadi.
did you know he banged the maid. tell me what kind of married man bangs a maid. in the county that i come from only a perverted dirty old man.
more on my words that i stand by:
mo was the gangleader of the kabila and the biggest homicidal jihadi.
did you know he banged the maid. tell me what kind of married man bangs a maid. in the county that i come from only a perverted dirty old man.
#198 Posted by tahmed32 on July 7, 2006 12:56:11 pm
mohar: i count 2 more posts from you. only 15 more to go and you will reach the magic number. you can do it!! dont let me down.
#197 Posted by tahmed32 on July 7, 2006 12:55:01 pm
#182 swarrier: did i say you were taking pleasure at anyone`s misfortunes? I think i very clearly said it was arjun. nor have i written any abuse to you, and in fact have maintained the same friendly tone that you have. so please try to stay fair. dont feel you have to defend an idiot just because he happens to be a ``fellow`` anything.
#196 Posted by Netizen on July 7, 2006 12:53:00 pm
Re: # 192
abay tahmad:
what nonsense are you talking....
first you accuse me of having such a viewpoint and when i say that it was expressed first by some one else, then you are accusing me of hiding behind others?
i am just using the words that were coined by someone that i do agree with. whats wrong with that????
or all these words that you use are invented by you???
if you don`t have any counter-point don`t reply just for the sake of it.
abay tahmad:
what nonsense are you talking....
first you accuse me of having such a viewpoint and when i say that it was expressed first by some one else, then you are accusing me of hiding behind others?
i am just using the words that were coined by someone that i do agree with. whats wrong with that????
or all these words that you use are invented by you???
if you don`t have any counter-point don`t reply just for the sake of it.
#195 Posted by tahmed32 on July 7, 2006 12:51:56 pm
#189 mishra shrikant lal jee: you cant have it both ways - if you berate others on the basis of their religion, in doing you also establish your own chowk presence on the basis of your religious identity, namely that of a hindu man. and you provide living proof how even educated hindus are no better than the mobs of street scum that attack minorities in india.
kapeesh, mishrajee??
kapeesh, mishrajee??
#194 Posted by mohar11 on July 7, 2006 12:49:28 pm
Re: # 187 mullah 32
Yep - my morning doesn`t go well unless I kick your behind(PUBH) a few times... so far - it`s 4 times, including this one.... But you don`t have to hold the pain inside until the kicks gets to 20, you can let it out now.... :)
Yep - my morning doesn`t go well unless I kick your behind(PUBH) a few times... so far - it`s 4 times, including this one.... But you don`t have to hold the pain inside until the kicks gets to 20, you can let it out now.... :)
#193 Posted by mohar11 on July 7, 2006 12:43:52 pm
Re: # 189
Yep - when nothing works, blame it on hinuds .... that`s the proven paki way - used to work every time... but not any more..... :)
Yep - when nothing works, blame it on hinuds .... that`s the proven paki way - used to work every time... but not any more..... :)