Chowk Staff July 20, 2006
echo man, we get your drift. now if you would be so kind as to just post the link and maybe a couple of lines from the story. your flooding makes it very difficult to read other people`s posts. thks.
...Btw, biggest liberals don`t change their views based on one situation....
One situation? When they hanged ZAB, the liberal dream was lost. With the next army intervention in Pakistan, whatever was left was trampled underfoot. With rise of Taliban, Pakistan got a gift of kalashnikovs and heroine, and militant Mullahism ... all with US support.
And you term it `one` situation?
It is not difficult to see where the liberals failed. If the Islamists fight, and come to power, they deserve it. After all Pakistan has tried everything else, and nothing has worked. Maybe it is time to give Mullahs a go at it.
I still haven`t forgiven myself for watching, quietly and forlornly, as a student, when ZAB went to the gallows, just with a sense of doom. And no liberal amongst his hundreds of millions of admirers who had his posters stuck on their walls, including myself, did anything to save him.
Perhaps it`s time for some to atone for that.
Offcourse you replied to Zeemax you said
//It is so nice to see the discussion back on track. Thank you Zeemax bulleya and SR.//
as for you not replying to me I would like to cut and paste from one of ur earlier replies #408....
//Please don`t run. What would hindus think about a muslim giving up and running away?//
To tahmed
//aangaara #508 please dont scare echosqueek....he wets his shalwar at the very thought of a dog.//
aji shalwar nahi DENIM, shalwar is for backward, and poor pakistanis. this one is masha-allah rich and in america... although sources tell me that he wore a shalwar for his visa interview.... dont know if the american embassy in pakistan has dogs or not.....
Long John Silver of ``The Treasure Island``--a Muslim? Oh what a romantic story: Remember your RLS. oh how are being kept in the dark by the Ba Ba Blacksheep & the animal-husbands.
Charles Spencer reviews Under The Black Flag at Shakespeare`s Globe TheatreAdvertisements for Simon Bent`s sprawling new pirate play promise ``naked flesh and filthy language``. As Peter Cook observed in similar circumstances, what`s the point of going to the theatre when I can get all that at home?

A long haul: Jacqueline Defferary and Cal MacAninch in Under A Black Flag
The piece is subtitled ``The early life, adventures and pyracies [sic] of the Famous Long John Silver before he lost his leg``, which is certainly an appealing idea. Bent provides Silver`s back-story before we encounter him in Stevenson`s Treasure Island.
He is the son of a con-artist evangelist and Leveller who believes the most direct way to God is through beer, nudity and fornication. After he is press-ganged into the Navy, he is captured by pirates, of whom he soon becomes captain. He also makes an implacable enemy of the Cromwellian Captain Mission, whom Silver maroons after killing his son.
The writing often smells of research. Bent has learnt that pirate ships were far more democratic than those in the Navy and that the buccaneers had their own parliament on the Moroccan Atlantic coast. The dramatist also draws laborious contemporary parallels. Cromwell`s war on pirates is equated with Bush`s and Blair`s war on terror, especially after Silver converts to Islam and marries the daughter of the Sultan of Morocco. Needless to say, in current cowardly dramatic fashion, Islam gets a far better press than Christianity.
What`s missing in the show is swashbuckling flair and narrative momentum. Bent gets bogged down in Shakespearean parallels, and though there are some excellent shafts of sick black comedy, his more serious theme - that violence breeds violence - is both laborious and predictable.
At almost three hours, Roxana Silbert`s production is far too long, and desperately lacking in the ``wow`` factor. The battles are lame, the actors too often inaudible, and it is often hard to work out exactly what`s going on. Surely it ought to have been possible to erects sails in the yard and have people climbing ropes up to the balconies. But Silbert limits the fun like a dour schoolmistress. Orlando Gough`s score is underpowered and far from memorable, but the show does at least offer a couple of good powder-keg explosions.
Few fireworks in the acting department, however. Cal MacAninch is a woefully uncharismatic Silver, without a hint of swagger. The man who should be in the role is Nicolas Tennant, who knows how to buckle his swash and brings a fine insolence to the role of the subsidiary pirate, Kees de Keyser.
Robin Soans is memorably sinister as Silver`s implacable enemy, Mission, Jane Murphy touching as Silver`s daughter, who disguises herself as a cabin boy, while Akiya Henry doubles to delightful effect as the sultan`s daughter and the Angel of Death. But heave-ho, me hearties, the show feels like a hell of a long haul and offers far too little rum, bum and concertina. Tickets: 020 7401 9919
Thanks.
HP Bhai, you must be a diplomat. You mentioned each one of my pointed questions, which are quite clear, but successfully avoided answering a single one, and have referred me back to your post. That`s beurocratic.
HP, If you ask me a question, I will give a straightforward response. Try it.
But, as I have said many times, I have tremendous respect for your intellect, and I`ll read your post again to see whether there`re any answers in it. But I`m impatient. My fault. It`s just getting ridiculous out there.
Rgds
I heard that the Unite-Satan was thinking of asking ``muslim`` countries like Pakistan
why not Pakiland? The paki army already whacked a bunch of palis in Jordan...so it`s not like they`re new at this...
http://www.madison.com/wsj/home/local/index.php?ntid=92015&ntpid=3
Wisconsin State Journal
City sees increased interest in Islam SANDY CULLEN 608-252-6137 scullen@madison.com>scullen@madison.com As midday traffic whizzes past on East Washington Avenue near the corner with Milwaukee Street, Salih Erschen steps onto the sidewalk and raises his hand to his mouth.
Speaking in Arabic, the Wisconsin native and amir, or director, of the Madison Muslim Dawa Circle shouts out a call to prayer: "God is great. There is no God but Allah. Come to prayer. Come to prosperity."
The public invitation to prayers that takes place five times a day at the new East Side center is common in Muslim countries, but a rarity in the United States, despite a growing number of Americans who are taking Islam as their religion.
"I haven't seen a call to prayer here in the United States," said Ali Khan, executive director of the American Muslim Center in Chicago.
"We try to keep it very low key," said Khan, whose mosque in northwest Indiana was shot at after the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.
"Most of us, when we're out in the mainstream, try to hide our identity these days," Kahn said, adding the Muslim prophet Muhammad "just became Mo."
But reaction to the call to prayer at the new East Side center "is much more positive than negative," Erschen said.
"We occasionally will get a couple of stares," he said. "We see people across the street - they're like, 'Is he yelling at me?' "
The center is located in space formerly occupied by Yasmin's Meat Market, a couple doors down from the Union House Tavern and across from a plaza housing Papa John's Pizza, Tobacco Deals, and other businesses.
Many of the nearby business are owned or run by Muslims, some who come to the center, Erschen said, adding, "This is one of the highest concentrations of Muslim-owned business in Madison."
Along with fueling anti-Muslim sentiment, the Sept. 11 attacks have raised the visibility of Islam, prompting an increasing number of Americans to explore and to adopt the religion, Khan said.
The number of Muslims in the United States is estimated at between six and 10 million of the 1.5 billion Muslims worldwide, he said.
While many of those who convert to Islam are blacks and Hispanics, Khan said there has been a significant increase in the number of white Americans who are adopting the religion.
"Prior to Sept. 11, it would be something of an oddity to see a Caucasian at a mosque - now it's not an oddity," said Khan, who now sees "one or two whites" a week.
"The first thing we think is it's FBI," he said, adding, "Usually the people that are coming in are always very religious."
"There's a big growth of Islam in Madison," said Erschen, who, like many of those who come to his center, converted to Islam.
Erschen established the center about three months ago as a convenience to Muslims on the city's East Side who might not be able to take time out of their workday to go for prayer at the Islamic centers on the West Side or Downtown, where parking presents an added difficulty.
"We just saw the necessity to fill that void," Erschen said. "Every week, there's more people coming."
On Fridays, when Muslims are encouraged to pray with others, the center is filled with 20 to 30 people, he said.
About 15 children, along with a few adults, take classes in Arabic, the language in which the Quran is written.
The Downtown Islamic Center at 21 N. Orchard, where UW-Madison's Muslim Student Association is based, is Madison's oldest mosque, drawing between 200 and 300 people, Erschen said, adding, "They're looking at an expansion of the facility."
The Madison Muslim Dawa Circle started about six years ago by organizing talks in the community. The word "dawa" means "invitation." About a year and half ago, it began renting space for Friday afternoon prayer at the Warner Park Community Center, where attendance grew to about 20 people.
"Our intention is to help educate people to understand about Islam," said Erschen, who also hosts the weekly "Garden of Truth" show at 7 p.m. Sundays on community television station WYOU.
Part of that education includes dispelling the notion that all Muslims are terrorists. The center has a statement condemning terrorism.
Erschen, 34, who grew up in the Dickeyville area, became a Muslim when he was 21 - one year after meeting his future wife, Yasmin, a Muslim born in Somalia, while visiting friends in Madison. Their relationship prompted him to learn about Islam.
Abdullah Champeon of Madison converted to Islam 12 years ago.
"I used to drink really, really bad," said Champeon, 39, who gave up alcohol and started going to a Presbyterian Church. His love of history prompted him to start reading about religion, beginning with the Roman Empire.
"If this were a war movie, the Christians would be the bad guys and the Muslims would be the ones with the white hats," he said, acknowledging that there have been corrupt rulers of all religions, including Islam. "There have been a number of cases where the Christians went in and just slaughtered, slaughtered, slaughtered."
After being drawn to Islam, Champeon said he had to get over his conception that "Islam equals Arab or Islam equals angry black man in America" and that "it just wasn't a white-guy thing."
His choice to give up "living an American middle-class lifestyle" and convert to Islam still "kind of freaks people out a little," he said. "Even today, people think you're a little weird."
While Champeon doesn't consider his adopted religion to be as strict as other people do, he said, "It's a very different life."
In addition to praying five times a day in a prostrate position with forehead to the floor - symbolizing submission to Allah, whom Muslims hold to be the only God and creator - use of drugs or alcohol is prohibited. Sex outside of marriage, as well as gay and lesbian relationships, also go against Islam's teachings.
Khan describes Islam as more "God-conscious" than many other religions. In praying five times a day, Muslims maintain an awareness of their relationship with God and the teachings of Islam and can quickly right any transgressions, he said.
"The goal is to create a life pattern," Erschen said.
While Muslims do not seek to convert people to Islam, they welcome those who have chosen to practice the religion, Kahn said.
"Everyone I know who has taken on Islam has their own unique story," Erschen said. Among them is a former Jesuit student who was instructed to study the Quran to assist him in doing missionary work with Muslims and ended up converting to Islam.
"Some people are kicked out of their homes right away," Erschen said. "Others' families take it on with them."
unlike the losers here or unlike most modern muslim leaders, the following muslim actually achieved something. check out his views on the m.e:
Mr Jinnah’s presidential address delivered extempore at the annual session of the All-India Muslim League held at Patna, on Dec 26-29, 1938. On Palestine, he said:
“Among the immediate issues we have to grapple with, which may come up before the subjects committee, is the question of Palestine. I know how deeply Muslim feelings have been stirred over the issue of Palestine.
“I know Muslims will not shirk from any sacrifice if required to help the Arabs who are engaged in the fight for their national freedom. You know the Arabs have been treated shamelessly. Men, who are fighting for the freedom of their country, have been described as gangsters and subjected to all forms of repression.
“For defending their homelands they are being put down at the point of the bayonet and with the help of martial laws. But no nation, no people who are worth living as nation, can achieve anything great without making great sacrifices which the Arabs of Palestine are making.
“All our sympathies are with those valiant martyrs who are fighting the battle of freedom against usurpers. They are being subjected to monstrous injustices which are being proppped up by British imperialism with the ulterior motive of placating international Jewry, which commands the money bags. That question we will have to consider.”
and this is how he thought the problem should be handled:
``...We are all passing through perilous times. The drama of power-politics that is being waged in Palestine, Indonesia and Kashmir should serve as an eye-opener to us. It is only by putting up a united front that we can make our voice felt in the `counsels of the world.``
i muat say the more i read about him, the more i am impressed notwithstanding what the man achieved for us.
“I still haven`t received any reply from the question I posed a hundred posts ago ...:
How does a liberal Muslim support all these legitimate causes without being labelled a terrorist sympathiser?”
My post deals with that issue. As I said, we are dealing with a complex situation and there is no need to jump the gun.
“I was the biggest liberal and now I am inexorably drawn towards the Islamic struggle led by the Islamists,”
I think you are way smarter than that. I suggest you read my post again and try to put two and two together yourself. You will also reach the conclusion that while we do condemn Israeli atrocities in Lebanon, we cannot ignore the fact that the sectarian or the religious fanaticism cannot bring a rational solution to the problems faced by the Palestinians and Arabs. Btw, biggest liberals don`t change their views based on one situation.
“Is that the formulation of a liberal and progressive path that the US helped in through getting that most liberal of all, ZAB, hanged by the neck through Zia and supporting his regime for 11 years and getting the Hudood ordinances passed which are still impossible to reverse?”
This is separate discussion and we will have to discuss that separately. The US role in the current Pakistan is different than what it was in the early 80s.
I would say slowdown and read my post again for clarity…
Hamidm, this is just the kind of blind acceptance of all BS when you reproduce, as proof, THIS:
...inability of Lebanon to control Hezbollah or even to strengthen its own army...
Do you mean the Lebanon Government failed to buy a couple of anti-aircraft guns to protect its airport? Do you think it didn`t have the money? Or is there a small, very slight possibility that noone was willing to sell it to them? As the Lebanese PM said point blank in Rome today, that they are relying totally on Hazballah for Lebanon`s border security, did you even pause to consider why Lebanon is doing that?
I leave it open to your judgement, but perhaps there`s a teeny weeny possibility that there`s an un-written arms embargo on Lebanon, so all they can rely on is a guerilla force. Or they would have been physically run over by now. So far their infrastructure is gone, but the country remains. If there was no Hazballah, there would be no more Lebanon ... only greater Israel.
But do answer my questions in para 2.
Thanks.
hate to interupt...
But this sites claims ....these photos won`t be shown by CNN....etc...
http://fromisraeltolebanon.info/
....the first two are the cute.... moral boasters...where the innocent israeli girls write messages on the shells.... because they were fearfull after 5 days in the bunkers....
.....and look where those shells went...and what they did to the other non-israeli children.
Liberaloons?
They want to run with the hare & hunt with the hounds. They do not want to risk their corrupt ``good`` life. Hence they do not have the passion.
They are doomed.
Liberaloons are the ones Martin Luther King jr. warned us about. The Klan & the red-neck are easy to identify & liquidated. The liberaloons are the trojan-ass among the muslims.
Like our tahmed32 & hamidm2: See how they exhibit their chameleon Muslimness when outed?
and they are the kind US is on the lookout as well. All the 9/11 ones drank , were chikna-shaven, and had all the attributes of a liberaloon...so watchout h2 & t32.
See how the worms are now squirmming & wetting their chUDDies! Some superpower LWQ.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/iran-syria-snub-puts-ceasefire-in-doubt/2006/07/26/1153816254821.htmlRead 2nd page as well
Paul McGeough Chief Herald Correspondent in Beirut and agencies
July 27, 2006
Page 1 of 2 | Single page
WORLD diplomats in Rome for crisis talks on Lebanon pledged yesterday to work urgently for a ``lasting, permanent and sustainable`` ceasefire.
``Participants express their determination to work immediately to reach with the utmost urgency a ceasefire that puts an end to the current violence and hostilities,`` said the joint declaration, read at the end of the meeting by Italian Foreign Minister Massimo D`Alema.
The United Nations Secretary-General, Kofi Annan, called for a Security Council resolution on an immediate ceasefire.
But he also said it was important to include both Iran and Syria to reach an agreement to end fighting in Lebanon.
The US Secretary of State, Condoleezza Rice, speaking at a news conference with Mr Annan said: ``What we agreed upon is there should be an international force under UN mandate that will have a strong and robust capability to help bring about peace and help humanitarian efforts.``
She also said there was deep concern about the role of Iran adding that Syria also needed to do its part.
The Rome conference held a minute`s silence for the victims of the 15-day-old conflict.
Vowing to sue Israel for the ``barbaric destruction`` of his country, the Lebanese Prime Minister, Fouad Siniora, asked in a speech: ``Is the value of human rights in Lebanon less than that of citizens elsewhere? Are we children of a lesser God?``
Earlier Mr Annan urged Hezbollah to stop ``deliberate targeting of Israeli population centres`` and Israel ``to end its bombardments, blockades and ground operations``. Saying a truce and deployment of a peace force could ``give us the beginnings of a way out of this crisis``, Mr Annan asked the conference ``to urge the Security Council to call for an immediate cessation of hostilities``.
As Washington canvassed support for an international force of up to 30,000 troops for Lebanon, diplomats arriving at the conference had been pessimistic about an early ceasefire in a war that already has claimed more than 400 civilian lives.
There was anger too over the exclusion of Iran and Syria and deepening anxiety about the brutal conflict spreading beyond Lebanon lowered expectations before the meeting began.
There was a menacing suggestion that Israel had yet to witness the full extent of Hezbollah`s Iran-supplied firepower, when the militia`s leader, Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah, threatened to launch missiles deeper into Israel.
Tehran lashed out angrily at being snubbed, along with Damascus and their Hezbollah allies who show no signs of faltering in the face of more than two weeks of an intense Israeli air and ground campaign.
Israeli jets continued bombing targets in Beirut and in southern Lebanon yesterday.
The Rome conference was attended by the US, Canada, Britain, France, Spain, Germany, Turkey, Russia, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Jordan, as well as the United Nations and the World Bank.
The Hezbollah leader rejected any plan for an international force, confronting the conference with the reality that its options would be to send forces to impose, rather than keep the peace; or to allow Israel to press ahead with its newly articulated plan to occupy a buffer zone inside Lebanon.
However, speculation that two of Hezbollah`s key demands might be included in a draft statement to be issued by the meeting - an exchange of the prisoners held by both sides and the return to Lebanon of the disputed Shebaa Farms region which Israel has occupied since 1982 - would rob Hezbollah of its primary reasons for war.
Quoting unnamed Lebanese officials who had met the US Secretary of State, Condoleezza Rice, during her visit to Beirut on Monday, CNN reported that Dr Rice had suggested an initial force of up to 10,000 Turkish and Egyptian peacekeepers, under the command of either NATO or the UN, if a ceasefire could be agreed.
In time, she reportedly proposed, they would be replaced by a force of up to 30,000 foreign troops who would help the Lebanese Government impose its authority over Hezbollah`s border-region enclave.
During a meeting with the Hezbollah-aligned Speaker of the Lebanese parliament, Nabih Berri, she was told that her insistence on a package deal was unlikely to succeed.
The US delegation to Rome also was confronted with Arab and European demands that an immediate ceasefire should be the priority.
You know, HP, Masadi is completely rational, though he goes overboard sometimes. So is Urstruly. So is Echoboom. I was the biggest liberal and now I am inexorably drawn towards the Islamic struggle led by the Islamists, of-course who else, because the liberals have done zilch. Someone has to resist, and isn`t it the Islamists who are doing it?
When you say:
The US is helping Pakistan in formulating a liberal and progressive path.
Is that the formulation of a liberal and progressive path that the US helped in through getting that most liberal of all, ZAB, hanged by the neck through Zia and supporting his regime for 11 years and getting the Hudood ordinances passed which are still impossible to reverse?
I have to ask you, my learned friend, what exactly are you talking about, Sir?
I still haven`t received any reply from the question I posed a hundred posts ago ...:
How does a liberal Muslim support all these legitimate causes without being labelled a terrorist sympathiser?
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