hamidm: vaat varmints? who you talking to??

bulleya: I dont think I am making myself clear. It does not matter who is to blame. What matters is: how did the lebanese end up in this situation? even more important: are we pakistanis headed for a similar situation 10, 15 years from now? I have provided a number of reasons why i think we need to get serious about these things. Even our blessed nuclear shield - as i mentione earlier - will not remain unbreachable for ever, given technological advances. We cannot enjoy this luxury of looking for blame in conflicts we barely understand in any non-emotional, factual manner.

Okie dokie :D

Hijab-ullah vs Jews (blessed humans) ....

Hezbollah: Israeli onslaught a surprise

... BEIRUT, Lebanon - A senior Hezbollah official said Tuesday the guerrillas did not expect
Israel to react with an all-out offensive after the capture of two soldiers, the first acknowledgment by the group that it had miscalculated the consequences of the raid two weeks ago.

Mahmoud Komati, deputy chief of the Hezbollah`s political arm, also told The Associated Press in an interview that the Shiite militant group will not lay down arms.

``The truth is — let me say this clearly — we didn`t even expect (this) response ... that (Israel) would exploit this operation for this big war against us,`` said Komati. ...

Read the full article. Click on the link above :)

God BLESS the JEWS. An amazing race - makes you wish you were one of them.

tahmad......my points were two-fold:

first of all, one gets the feeling that people are more concerned about WHO is doing the fighting and killing and less concerned about WHO is being killed. would it have been better had the Israelis been christian and the hezbollah been hindu? people tend to map their dislike of maulvis or jews into violence, rather than looking at the ethics behind the actions....

when someone is killed, the blame has to be on the killer. this is why i gave the examples of india and pakistan. they both shell each other. based on the reasoning you have given, pakistan could launch a raid against delhi and bomb it to bits and then state that it is india`s fault since it invited the attack by shelling across the border....when, in fact, both parties are doing it....

using this logic, if lebanon had military prowess over israel, it could have launched the attack on tel-aviv and blamed it on israel taking nine hostages. limited cross-border violence, in which two countries/groups are involved, should not be allowed to elevate into all out slaughter of one by the other......

in the end, hardly anyone from the israeli army will be killed, since they are too well gaurded. hardly anyone from hezbollah will be killed, since they will go underground. so what is the point of raising the ante to such high levels.....

why not just swap prisoners? israel should say, look we caught you off-guard and took nine of your guys. you caught us off-guard and took two of ours. lets trade. you have killed six or our civilians, we have killed quite a few more of yours. lets just keep it at this level....

don`t waste your compassion on varmints .............

........ when i came home today there was a note on the front door from the critter control man: `` there was nothing in the trap today, i will be back tomorrow``........ needless to say, i was disappointed - the varmint has been terrorizing mrs hamidm and the girls by making all kinds of noises in the attic ......... now i know what the poor israelis feel like with the hezbollah critters making all kinds of noises across the border .......... it is quite immaterial that they have managed to kill only six people in the last few years - after all, the poor varmint hasn`t done anything and i am lusting for his blood ...........

................ look guys, don`t waste your compassion on the jihadi fools ............ even though i feel really bad about the poor lebanese civilians caught in the crossfire, it is the price we all have to pay for freedom from terror ...........

#472 agreed that hezbullah is considered to militarily stronger than the lebanese military, and also their social services. the fact remains that hezbullah is no match for the israelis, whom they gave enough reason to attack lebanon that there is no strong movement on the part of any country - india, china, russia, muslim countries - let alone the US to bring this bloodshed to and end. So what good is their ``military strength`` and their ``social work`` for the ordinary lebanese?

i agree with most of what you say in #476. and, per your last sentence there, deterrence is no doubt an anti-dote to violence. But let us not get too smug in our deterrence capacity - for reasons I provided in that last para. of my previous post to you which i have repeated again for shehrbano to consider.

while we are critical of india and pakistan going on and on with fighting, one has to admit that the two countries have been able to maintain quite a bit of sanity, within their violence.

one would be hard pressed to find two countries who have carried out more cross-border or cross-demarcation shelling than india and pakistan. there are also probably very few countries that have captured more of each others citizens than india and pakistan. yet the two countries have never bombed each other`s civilian establishments.

india and pakistan, for years, would regularly shell each other across the loc in kashmir. this was an hourly, in fact minute by minute occurence uptil a few years ago. constant shelling. in addition, civilians are regularly caught and jailed along the punjab and sind border and fishing lanes.

during the past six years, hezbollah has killed six israeli civilians and taken two soldiers hostage. hardly anything in comparison to what india and pakistan regularly do. israel has taken nine lebanese hostage (i could not find figures on how many they have killed). again a fraction of what india and pakistan do.

ironically, indians and pakistanis seem very concerned about lebanese and israelis firing missiles at each other. yet there is no mention or concern of indians and pakistanis doing far more shelling on each other. even though they are their own countries. could it be that people are willing to tolerate missiles and hostage takings as long as it is not done by jews or by mullahs.

interestingly, pakistan and india never attacked each other over such violence, in a manner than israel has attacked lebanon. the last time a bomb was dropped on lahore or delhi was 35 years ago. this goes to show that deternce is a very powerful antidote to violence.

shehrbano: I think you are wrong in lumping mullahs with majority muslims. The majority muslims in Pakistan have routinely trashed mullahs in elections, and they have come to power only because the military government finds them convenient. Also, remember that the concept of a priesthood or intercessors of any kind is condemned most vigorously in the Quran.

As a muslim I know your emotional feelings for fellow muslims. I had the same feelings myself when I was younger - with the passage of time, I have come to realize that the distinction between muslim and nonmuslim is very arbitrary. It is because I care about muslims that I have hundreds, perhaps thousands, of posts on chowk alone where I have challenged posts written by hindus that have sought to ridicule muslims or to demonize there religion. Look on the other hand at the armchair jehadis on chowk and see how many times they have bothered to do this.

If I present you with reality - it is because I love Pakistan and my fellow Pakistanis and see them heading in the wrong direction. You keep ignoring the main point I repeated below (in bold). Please think about it.

shehrbano writes regarding tahmed <<< Just listing some of the heinous crimes of the US around the world would make your hatred for mullas & muslims justified. If that is not the case then I am afraid that you are no different than those you love to hate >>>

He will never do it (unless possibly now just to prove me wrong). He does not condemn colonization, the genocide of native americans, the atlantic slave trade, US babarism in Vietnam, the rampant racism that has relegated one third of young african americans to a criminal justice system or the debilitating sanctions that killed near a million children in Iraq, or life for the 26 million in Iraq or the millions in occupied Palestine that are miserable because of American policy.

He will do none of this, he worships them unconditionally while ranting against the Mullah, because it is popular to do that even though such blind rant, even against the Mullah is unjustified in my opinion and amounts to prejudice, among them are decent, hard working though misguided people who deserve much better than what either their society or those guided by prejudice give them, they are products of a social system and the AHs who rant against them in many cases have constructed the environment in which they, the mullahs default to their unenlightened position.

Re: # 471

> ...and his two wives was the grand statement he made to the west ...

the disease is too deep. May the patient meet his creator. Soon.

tahmad......the ability of providing social services at the grassroots level by Hamas and Hezbollah in a relatively corruption-free manner is recognized across the board, by Western and Eastern scholars. This is a reason for Hamas being elected in Palestine, over the corrupt and incompetent govt. of Mahmood Abbass. There was a documentary on CNN (no friend of Hezbollah) on Hezbollah, where they highlighted their social services network.

As for the fighting capabilities of militant organizations, they are generally recognized as superior to those of most local militaries of the countries they belong to. This may not mean they are very good at fighting, but they seem to be better at fighting then the militaries of countries surrouding Israel (not counting the fight Egypt put up in 73). This is, again, recognized by Western groups also, when they highlight that Hezbollah is the only organization that has been able to militarily remove Israel from any territory.

One must look at these points objectively. For example, I don`t agree with the Israelis killing so many people. But that does not mean they are not a very efficient fighting machine.

467:
That`s kind of disappointing, to say the least.

In order to show your character, as you put it, could you please enlist what in your opinion is wrong with the US? or is your hatred reserved only for the mullas & majority muslims?

Just listing some of the heinous crimes of the US around the world would make your hatred for mullas & muslims justified. If that is not the case then I am afraid that you are no different than those you love to hate. It is just that you do not see yourself that way. You disappointed me again.

I being a woman would still see my sons fighting the oppression in the world being waged on muslims & non-muslims alike. The partners of the U.S in such crimes are such ``muslims`` Saudis, Pakistan, Israel, Egypt, Jordan, Morroco, Libya, Tunis etc.

It is no achievement to be with the Jagirdaar , the establishment & the powerful, any lowlife is capable of that & live on that rubbed off lustre. I do not think that except for just working in US, you can lay any claim to have achieved anything worthwile in sciences or art..like Abdul Salaam for e.g. He took everything good from the west, and still was not a sell-out. His Nobel prize address in Urdu, his dress, and his two wives was the grand statement he made to the west as to where he stood in the ``pride`` department. Or would you call him ``characterless`` to exhibit such pride. Even though he was an ahmedi, he was simply a ``mozlum`` to the west.

arjun writes

<<< comrade masadi: do the math...

71% of Indians + 41% of Chinese >= muslim population of the world... >>>

And your point is? Whatever it is, it is more than offset by 29% of Indians, 59% of Chinese and the vast majority of the rest of the world. Please get an education or I will have to write to your parents informing them how they wasted their hard earned money on paying your tuition, now run along.

bulleya: I am sorry but I dont share your faith in the mullah`s fighting abilities or their capacity for social service. Also please see my post #467 below for more on this.

[HP] -> This guy is friends with our own 5th columnists....
[Masadi] -> This guy is a gem. Is always ready with a rant on how US is bad, but refuses to
leave the country :P
[faisaluno] -> He is the guy from samarkand :D
[...various...]

Hamid sahib seems to have set a lot of momeen salwars on fire ... :)

shehrbano: I am actually very comfortable with being a Pakistani and a muslim, and have never felt any reason in my entire life to identify myself as being anything else. Do you feel differently? (I ask this because it is not clear from your post)

Notice I use the word ``comfortable``, not ``proud``. Let me explain why: I think only insecure people seek ``pride`` in their nationality, religion or some other ``herd`` that they wish to associate it. The only thing one can be proud of is of having thinking as ratinally as possible and acting accordingly . Thus, e.g., if I am proud of anything, it is that I have spoken to street vendors and to national ministers, to subordinates and bosses, to domestic servants and their employers, to - and treated them all the same, i.e. as my equals and fellow human beings. And if course there are some things I have or have not done that I am not so proud of: the list is so long that I wont burden you with it :-). But being a Pakistani or a muslim or being born rich or poor or black or white or brown is not on that list. Like I said, I am very comfortable with my ``identity``.

As for ``respect``: they say ``reputation`` is what people think you are, ``character`` is what you really are. What matters in the long run is not ``image`` or ``reputation``, but character. Since it is character that makes destiny, not image. Thus: does it matter to the lebanese whether or not the world ``respects`` hzabullah, or lebanese? They have real problem to deal with, something that the armchair jehadists on chowk dont have to be concerned with.

And this brings me to the most important point I was trying to make seems to have gone unnoticed with you, i.e. my last para in #455, which I will repeat for you to consider: Of course these mullahs should be disarmed and military power should be controlled only by properly elected leaders who are accountable to their people for acting in a responsible manner. And if muslims dont do it, there is no shortage or capability in the rest of the world to do it. As the israelis are demonstrating. That is the lesson of lebanon that we pakistanis must learn. Even the nuclear shield gives us protection for only a decade or two I think, given technological advancements - after that all bets are off.