Escalation of Hostilities in Middle East

Re: #615 by HP on July 27, 2006 0:32am PT

Dear HP:

I totally disagree with the notion that

{Second, the line of argument that people should not criticize the US if they live here is absolutely childish and basically tells me that person bringing someone’s residence up for discussion is out of legit arguments.}

The mere fact of one being an immigrant shows that the person has rejected his place of birth or upbringing, and came to the new environment. This in and of itself should remove his ability of being authentic in his arguments.

Second, when a person is a believer of different values in a new system of values, it also impairs his vision and his authenticity.

{The US is not some religious object neither is it a place to worship that people should always bow before it. }

Granted, that the US is not some religious place to bow before it. But, when one takes a pledge of allegiance that is exactly what one does, and that is protect and defend the constitution of the US.

{When people criticize the US, they are criticizing the government or the administration and not the country itself. People have every right to criticize the US government no matter what their residence status is.}

Disagreed. The government of the US is by the people of the US, and rightful criticism can only be authentic by those who are by birth the citizen of the US, and not some displaced immigrant who happens to take his pledge of allegiance.

You as a person can criticize whatever and whosoever you want and that is your right as a human, but once you chose to accept the values of this new society, automatically you should remove yourself from criticism. If you can`t and if you want to remain authentic to yourself, then you must practice what you preach.

Respectfully submitted,

Dear masadi:

It is illogical for you to consider yourself intellectual, because you are not. People of faith can not depend upon intellect. You are trying to understand yourself and that is alright by me. By your assertion that some of us are anti-Islam, notwithstanding, makes it obvious that you have a ``holier than thou position`` and that makes you closed minded bigot.

You must resolve whether you practice a religious belief structure or you follow your intellect, and that you can`t follow both. Most of us, who call ourselves the enlightened ones, have given to the fact that the intellect is far superior to our beliefs, and are resigned to the fact that intellect is the one that is logical. By definition a believer becomes illogical.

You are not an intellectual, and no matter the amount of sloganeering that you publish will get you nowhere. Your commie values are actually not even accepted by your ilk in the fundoostan.

Respectfully submitted,

#605 by masadi on July 26, 2006 7:40pm PT

How does it feel knowing your tax $$ are being used to finance the ISraeli war? Look at the bright side tho..you only made 500$ in royalties for your screeds. Imagine the increased tax revenues if you had made more money from royalties.

So keep writing sucky books and deny the GOTUS the tax revenues on royalties...that will be your little contribution towards opposing the war.

#593 by soysauce on July 26, 2006 5:52pm PT


what`s the diff?
Neither side minds the killing of civilians. Dubya sheds crocodile tears for the civilians dead and the US DOD ships off precision-guided bombs on an expedited basis to israel.


The diff is obvious. It`s like the difference between the nazis killing a whole bunch of jews and some jewish slave laborers dying in the American bombing of a nazi factory. an idiot like you would say the two are the same.

#570 by hamidm2

..... at least kashmir is in the neighborhood and i have a lot of kashmiri friends ... i don`t feel any kinship with the arabs ... i just don`t like them...

So what you are saying is that you support Kashmir, but not Palestine because its nearer and Kashmiris are your friends; while you oppose Palestinian struggle because you don`t like Arabs.

Fine. Fair enough. But then your reasoning would be completely based on matters of personal likes/dislikes, and nothing to do with the merits/demerits of each, therefore you should keep your likes/dislikes to yourself as a matter of personal taste, and not propogate these through false reasoning which you have admitted has nothing to do with your own personal choices.

The entire premise of your argument stands demolished, but I think you have intellectual integrity to have admitted to the above.

#615 by HP

...It will be interesting to see the next moves by all the parties in the area.

Well, an indication of the next move is today`s headlines: ``An Israeli general said Wednesday that he expects the combat to continue ``for a few more weeks.``

What are they going to do in a `few more weeks`? More of the same or could it be something different?

#431 by zeemax

Please note that if, Shias/Sunnis THEMSELVES believed that to be true, then streets would have been full of blood upon MERE sucpicion.

Yaar Zee, while you have a valid point here, if there weren`t really any differences between the two sects, it couldn`t have been so easily exploited by the media or other vested interests.

Hope you`re having a good trip. If you`re interested, we may continue this conversation on the Lebanon board because its more active and we may get valuable input from others.

The bad part about the trip is that I`m not getting enough time online. Otherwise, its been a fantastic trip so far. I still have a couple more days before I`m home. I`ve been following this board since this morning and I think the wise thing to do is to carry our little discussion forward some other time, in order not to distract this board from the Israel-Hezbollah conflict.

#586 by HP

The Islamist parties use social work to recruit people. ....Regular political parties work with student unions and labor unions to recruit workers....It is a matter of what method you use to bring people into the political fold...

This is probably correct. However all said and done, at the end of the day, these recruiters through social work end up doing a hell of a lot of good, rather than the recruiters through student unions and labor unions, who are content with sloganeering in the street or sit-ins on some factory gates ... or gherao/jalao.

Example is earthquake relief.

#588 by GT

...Perhaps, this is why my (irrational) sympathy lies with the Hez .... and strangely it is inspite of my being opposed to their ideology. Talk about grey areas!...

This is exactly what I meant through my question that how does one support a legitimate cause without supporting the fighters for that cause who happen to be Islamist `Terrorists`?

Also, some people (HP?) have floated the idea that Islamists can`t really manage after they have won, and that is why they should not be supported. To this I ask the question that is it fair to say we should let the Islamists fight, and kill, and be killed for OUR shared causes, and if/when they win, they should stand aside and let the liberals manage, because they all have degrees in Political Science and Public Administration.

That`s really a weird notion.

#593 by soysauce

...US DOD ships off precision-guided bombs on an expedited basis to israel....

Yes. That is why the UN observer compound was demolished with pinpoint accuracy `regrettably` by mistake with a non-precision guided bomb, because the precision shipment had not yet arrived.

The SOBs did it on purpose for two reasons. One, to get rid of observers so they can`t observe the war crimes perpetrated and planned further; and two, to scare away imposition by UN of any peace-keeping forces being talked about for a cease-fire, because that will mean their going back to barracks without defeating Hazb, and that would mean they lost the war.

#582 by mohar11

....let the fools kill and die as they please....

Correct for bystanders. But the very least one can do, is not to laugh and jeer at the civilians while they are being massacred and hounded to their deaths, as some of our interactors are doing.

#576 by bulleya

...after reading the comments here, i think some people just don`t like the fact that hezbollah has the word, ``ollah`` in its name. that is why they are supporting the bombing of lebanon. and the fact that nasrullah has a beard and wears that black round hat.

Interesting observation. I agree. If they were to do that, they`ll probably become freedom fighters, or rebels, or guerrilas ... instead of terrorists. (example: Maoist guerillas are not terrorists).

That is why I say it is not `war on terror`, it is `war on muslims`; regardless of whether religion has anything to do with their causes or not.

First, I think this is too good a topic to be wasted by squabbling over inane issues.

Second, the line of argument that people should not criticize the US if they live here is absolutely childish and basically tells me that person bringing someone’s residence up for discussion is out of legit arguments. The US is not some religious object neither is it a place to worship that people should always bow before it. When people criticize the US, they are criticizing the government or the administration and not the country itself. People have every right to criticize the US government no matter what their residence status is. In fact, after Al Gore invented the net, everyone, regardless of their citizenship status, is fully empowered to criticize any government anywhere in the world. It would be irrational to assume that I cannot criticize India or Pakistan because I am not a citizen of both countries.

#594 by GT
GT
“Thus, patience is required. It is here that I disagree with the pseudo liberal cabal in the US. They want to get things right their way and immediately..”

You are absolutely right but there is no liberal cabal in the US that wants to set things right immediately. We have a conservative government in the US that after being cornered in Iraq is looking to find one excuse after another to justify its misadventure in the ME.

That brings to an interesting situation that perhaps would interest some posters here.

The US is bogged down in Iraq and now cannot extract itself as any unilateral withdrawal would perhaps allow the Islamist to claim victory against the West. (Even though I doubt that the resistance in Iraq is purely Islamist). The US is looking for ways to soften the impact its withdrawal from Iraq would have on the streets in the ME.

The US media has already revived Izzat Hossain, a former vice president of Iraq to claim that the resistance in Iraq is: 1) led by the Baathist and 2) the former Iraqi army is doing all the fighting. The US Amb in Iraq has also mentioned that the Iraqi nationalists are leading the resistance. This is contrary to what we were hearing just a couple of months ago when all fighters were either Zarqavi’s followers or were foreign fighters. This shift, though at this time appears to be just a trial balloon, shows that the US realizes its increasingly perilous position in Iraq. The fear that any US withdrawal from Iraq would be an Islamist victory is giving headache and rightly so to the US planners.

The current Israel response and since it appears to have bogged down in Lebanon proves that the US and its allies are making serious errors of judgment in their war against the non state actors. If Israel fails after the US failure in Iraq, the Islamist would have another victory to boot and that does not augur well for the liberals in many countries. The misstep by Israel with the definite US approval has placed the whole war on terrorism in jeopardy.

About the war itself; The Israel response in Lebanon is disproportionate to what the Hezbollah did. It is also indiscriminate as the Israeli targets in Lebanon are not even remotely connected with Hezbollah. Its strafing and bombing of the Christian neighborhoods and the civilian structure clearly shows the desperation of the Israel government to close this war as soon as possible but so far this effort is failing. If Israel finally ends up accepting a cease-fire that ends in exchange of prisoners and leaves Hezbollah in place then no one can stop the Islamist from claiming victory in Lebanon too.

This does appear to be a catch 22 situation, where Israel cannot extract itself with dignity nor can it continue to fight this war indefinitely as the civilian loss of life would continue to mount thus raising the international opinion against the Israeli disproportionate and indiscriminate response in Lebanon.

It will be interesting to see the next moves by all the parties in the area.

behram writes <<< Are you a man or a women? Maybe your estrogen level is getting too high. Your intellectual level is so rudimentary and stupid that sometimes I wonder about you? >>>

Keep wondering and pushing your Anti-Islam ``fundamentalism`` by imagining conditions and scenarios that do not exist, like the Iraqi WMDs. Regarding my intellectual level, I do not consider your intellectual level to be of a calibre to judge it. What I write stands on its own merits and those merits are not sloganeering and nonsense analogies (like comparing pregnancy to hate) like your posts.

Re: # 611 by masadi on July 26, 2006 8:33pm PT

Dear masadi:

{What else can we expect from your posts except sloganeering?}

Screw sloganeering. Are you a believer or not? That is the question. If you are then you can not be an intellectual. Why do you always adumbrate the issue at hand?

{ Just because Musharraf is a Sunni Muslims means that there is majority rule in Pakistan.}

The majority of Pakistani Power Elite are sunnis, are they not? What brand is another variable. It is common in intellectual circles (unlike your fundoostan`s philosophy) that majorities have a right to rule, whereas minorities have a right to be heard.

Which part of this sentence is so difficult?

Why are the muslims in the west complaining then? Being a minority in the west they perceive that they are not being heard. It is another matter that they promote politically nonsensical ideas from their history and culture.

{ You need to patent your new definition of ``democracy`` before somebody else steals it. People on here can tell by our posts, who has better ability to use their ``intellect``. Sloganeering does not prove anything.}

Your muslim fundoos are master of sloganeering. As for the intellect, it has long been dead in the deserts of bedounistan.

Respectfully submitted,

Re: # 608 by masadi on July 26, 2006 7:49pm PT

Dear masadi:

And that is what JI is, a Pakistani hate group.

{There is distinct difference between someone who hates (like hamidm does) but has little on no power to use it to cause harm and those who hate and can use it to destroy entire countries. BIG difference.}

Again you are comparing hate. It is like suggesting being a little pregnant is OK.

You are just one of the wonders of the universe thinking others on this board do not understand your flip flops. To dilute the argument of JI and their hate ideology you compared it with a bigger hate and then you brought ak-47 into the argument.

Are you a man or a women? Maybe your estrogen level is getting too high. Your intellectual level is so rudimentary and stupid that sometimes I wonder about you?

Respectfully submitted,

behram writes <<< But, masadi, you are not a rational human being. You can never be a rational human being. Rational beings by definition have to use their intellect which a believer, like yourself, can not >>>

What else can we expect from your posts except sloganeering? Just because Musharraf is a Sunni Muslims means that there is majority rule in Pakistan. You need to patent your new definition of ``democracy`` before somebody else steals it. People on here can tell by our posts, who has better ability to use their ``intellect``. Sloganeering does not prove anything.

Re: # 607 by masadi on July 26, 2006 7:46pm PT

Dear masadi:

How can a believer like you ever be rational?

{Actually the ruling minority (minority of a minority) has all the say while the aspirations of the majorities have been totally wiped out }

Your word-smithy not withstanding, Pervez Musharaff is still a sunni muslim and he is part of the majority.

{Be honest in what you are saying, by ``fundoo attitude`` you mean religious tendencies among the Muslims, you don`t mean the ``fundoo attitudes`` of the fascists who are imposing US dictatorship around the world. And you and hamid and his ilk want to control all Muslims based on a few bogeymen and their gangster groups. You are a damn hypocrite. }

I mean the fanaticism of some muslims against everything under the sun. Fundoos don`t like music and demand me (a non-muslim) to go for prayers in their mosque.

Why do the fundoos dare promote their faith on a bona fide non-muslim (such as myself) in the US? And on top of that they even try to convince me why my pajama should be six inches above my ankle. And then they incessantly continue with jazaak-ullah, and all the ullah`s that they can muster. Why?

{Great ideas for fascists in training, label anyone whose ideas you don`t like as ``Islamist`` and just by that label (and not any rational argument) you can dismiss their ideas by showing a ``red card`` and ignore the ``destructive thoughts`` that are implemented on a global scale by those the ``Islamists`` (your bogeymen) cannot even dream to equal, except in their rants.}

But, masadi, you are not a rational human being. You can never be a rational human being. Rational beings by definition have to use their intellect which a believer, like yourself, can not. I thought we had already covered this on a different board.

Respectfully submitted,