Escalation of Hostilities in Middle East

More interesting info:

- orthodox judaism is defined by a few characteristics that are to be followed. one of these is to follow the thirteen principles laid out by a man named Musa - bin - Maimoon. he was a jewish rabbi, born in cordoba in the time of muslim rule in spain. when the govt. changed there, he was forced to leave and migrated to another muslim country/area: morroco.

from their he moved to egypt and became the grand vizer and possibly the doctor to salauddin ayyubi! tariq ali has musa -bin -maimoon as one of his main characters in his book, ``the book of saladin.``

so the belief system of israel has a major portion laid out by a jewish man who was born and bred and was a part of a muslim society and actually was an employee of saladin - a man whom many muslims cite to reference the re-conquest of palestine........

behram in # 606 <<< Hate is still hate, and I do not compare or evaluate hate >>>

There is distinct difference between someone who hates (like hamidm does) but has little on no power to use it to cause harm and those who hate and can use it to destroy entire countries. BIG difference.

behram writes in #603 <<< In the Islamic world minorities` views and values have been completely wiped out. >>>

Actually the ruling minority (minority of a minority) has all the say while the aspirations of the majorities have been totally wiped out

behram writes <<< Further, fundoos attitude is want needs to be managed in the world. In this regard, I am in total agreement with Hamid and his rants against the fundoos attitudes. >>>

Be honest in what you are saying, by ``fundoo attitude`` you mean religious tendencies among the Muslims, you don`t mean the ``fundoo attitudes`` of the fascists who are imposing US dictatorship around the world. And you and hamid and his ilk want to control all Muslims based on a few bogeymen and their gangster groups. You are a damn hypocrite.

behram writes <<< For this to happen we must marginalize social values of islamist`s amongst us. Those who constantly bad mouth the west and remain tied to the western society must be shown a red card. Their destructive thoughts are not acceptable in today`s world >>>

Great ideas for fascists in training, label anyone whose ideas you don`t like as ``Islamist`` and just by that label (and not any rational argument) you can dismiss their ideas by showing a ``red card`` and ignore the ``destructive thoughts`` that are implemented on a global scale by those the ``Islamists`` (your bogeymen) cannot even dream to equal, except in their rants.

Respectfully submitted!

Dear Masadi:

In Pakistan, all those who have promoted hate are evil. JI is the premier organization that has promoted hate ever since Pakistan`s inception, and that is a fact. Then, of course we have a long list of political parties who have worked towards promoting hate. We all know these days the premier party of hate mongers is the MQM, of course.

So purveyors of hate are all over Pakistan. Some use ak-47, some use knives, and some use hateful words. Hate is still hate, and I do not compare or evaluate hate, maybe you do.

Respectfully submitted,

UN says Israel warned many times before fatal attack
Wed Jul 26, 2006 5:21pm ET

UNITED NATIONS (Reuters) - The United Nations said on Wednesday it asked Israel a dozen times to stop bombing near a U.N. post in Lebanon in the hours before an Israeli air attack destroyed the position killing four peacekeepers.

U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan initially referred to Tuesday`s deadly Israeli strike as the ``apparently deliberate targeting`` of the Khiam U.N. observer post.

the more i read about israeil demographics, the more interesting it gets. following is info from wikipedia, regarding israel proper (not counting west bank and gaza):

- arabic is an official language of israel Hebrew is the only other official Israeli language

- 20% of the population of israel is what is called arab-israelis, i.e. non-jewish arabs who are citizens of israel. 15% in proper israel. and 5% in east jerusalem, which was annexed by israel in 1980. most of them are desecendants of the 150,000 arabs who remained in israel afterthe 48 war

- there are 1.3 million legal muslim citizens in israel (if east jerusalem is counted). hence the % of muslims in israel is higher than the % of muslims in india

- 180,000 of these arab-israeli citizens are christian

- there are 170,000 palestinians illegally living in israel

- there are 200,000 palestinians who have migrated to israel from west bank and gaza, due to marriage and are citizens of israel (now there is a law agains that)

- muslim israelis have nearly twice the birth rate as jewish israelis. hence 25% of the children now being born in israel are muslims 42% of the israeli muslims are under the age of 15, while only 26% of the jewish israelis are under 15

- by 2020, the population of muslims in israel will rise to 25% of the total israeli population

- 12 out of the 120 seats in the Knesset are held by Arab-Israelis

- there is an Arab-Israeli who sits on the Supreme Court bench

- Miss Israel in 2005 was an Arab-Israeli

- The coach of the Palestinian national soccer team is an Arab-Israeli!

People think Indians and Pakistanis have cultural similarities yet political problems. Apparently, they are nothing compared to Israel and Palestine......And I haven`t even touched upon the Jewish-Arab population of Israel, which I think now number the largest the jewish population in israel. not sure, but they may have passed russian jews in israel in number..........

i think israel has more problems on its hands than people realize. it seems to be turning back into where it started from in 47/48, i.e. an area with an equal mixture of muslims and jews..........if one counts the occupied territories as part of israel, it already is that........

Re: # 594 by GT on July 26, 2006 6:24pm PT

Dear GT:

Majority has a right to rule but minorities must be heard, and that is what is usually missing in the muslim world. In the Islamic world minorities` views and values have been completely wiped out.

If these same majorities could only learn how the minorities behave amongst their ranks in the Islamic world, then they could behave totally differently in the west. Their stupid notion that they do not accept geographical boundaries, blah, blah, blah, etc (read masadi`s thoughts) should be challenged and marginalized. Further, fundoos attitude is want needs to be managed in the world. In this regard, I am in total agreement with Hamid and his rants against the fundoos attitudes.

For this to happen we must marginalize social values of islamist`s amongst us. Those who constantly bad mouth the west and remain tied to the western society must be shown a red card. Their destructive thoughts are not acceptable in today`s world.

Respectfully submitted,

Re: # 543

If Israelis don`t want any dead civilians, push jews out of Arab lands...

#600 behram writes <<< How can you compare evils? >>>

Just as you would compare the destructive ability of an ak-47 with a nuclear weapon.

Re: # 595 by masadi on July 26, 2006 6:31pm PT

Dear Masadi:

It is obvious that you are on a mission. How can you compare evils?

If you accept the notion that {The Jamaat`s leadership might be thugs as you say but their thuggery is small potatoes compared to the thuggery that the Neo-Colonials, }

Being a Zoroastrain, maybe my opinion does not count, but from a Pakistani`s perspective JI and the society that they aspire is evil, and most muslims would say that.

Respectfully submitted,

Mujahid Margolis
What a great analysis.

HP <<< Now I am not going to repeat the cliché of grey areas here but things are not as one two three as they may appear to many distant observers >>>

In the present time there has come about a great uniformity in global affairs, as the world has become smaller and domination has concentrated. In that context, it has become much more predictible. The paragon of capitalism is an inhumane mess both inside and outside, defaulting back to what has produced major global problems isn`t advisible and the hamidm`s and tahmed`s on here are suggesting that while not having a clue on how to formulate their arguments in a rational manner. You, on the other hand are much smarter than they are, that is why I am suggesting that you not let your prejudice against Islam or religion, guide your reasoning. We can use our reason and sense and uniqueness to come to solutions we don`t have to default to either the fascism of the West or groups like Jamaat.

Israeli Ministers, MKs Blast Belligerent Olmert
The news you seldom get on the Gangster-media.

The opposition to war in Israel. Over 5000 protest in Tel Aviv. An Mk( member of Knesset) writes. He is jewish.


http://www.islam-online.net/English/News/2006-07/23/01.shtml

IslamOnline.net & Newspapers


``I fear that this war deviates from the limits we set initially. We must warn against sinking anew in the Lebanese mud,`` said Mk Haim Oron.

CAIRO —With thousands of Israelis taking to the streets of Tel Aviv to protest the bloody assault on Lebanon, Israeli ministers and Members of Knesset have blasted Prime Minster Ehud Olmert for expanding the attacks and refusing to pursue a diplomatic track to defuse the crisis, an Israeli newspaper reported on Sunday, July 23.

Juan Cole

HP writes <<< Asadi, I cannot pass this statement w/o a comment. I think you are missing on some basic information abt these organizations. Please study the rise of Ikhawans in Egypt and Jamat Islami in Pakistan.

They will not blend away they will have to be politically defeated and in the current environments in many Muslim countries, that is the most difficult task for any government or political operatives. There is nothing in their ideology that suggests melting away. >>>

HP sahib, external causes and not something exclusively internal is what provides legitimacy to these organizations. Regarding Hamas and Hizb, they do provide genuine social service, be it using the people`s money, are grass roots movements in their communities that have been destroyed by outsiders. If a vibrant economic instituion emerges in their nations that were devastated by this Israeli conflict, I can guarantee you that these services which provide them legitimacy will vanish and so will they.

The Jamaat`s leadership might be thugs as you say but their thuggery is small potatoes compared to the thuggery that the Neo-Colonials, who have created conditions like lack of education~ explicitly through their institutional domination and militarism~ that ensures that these small time thugs get big time support. Just because you disagree with the lifestyle enforced in their narrow domains by these ``gangsters`` as you call them, as do I, as does the Quran, does not mean you default to the American way of globalized inhumaity. Also note that ``standard of living`` is not determined by quantity of consumption and waste where everything human including families and social traditon and culture are destroyed for uniformity of a scale no coersively enforced system can ever dream of achieving.

We need to be cultural technicians, inventors of our unique ways rather than default to one fascism or the other. In this clash of fascisms the Jamaat and others are small time players leeching off the bigger gangsters, we need to reject them both.

Re: # 590

HP,

Your point is well taken. Where people are free to impose (temporarily perhaps) their ideology through imperfect means like majority voting, and hence ready to live under (again temporarily perhaps) opposing ideologies, the need to resort to violence diminishes greatly. The negation leads to violence as seen readily even in parts of India like Kashmir, Assam etc. For the above mentioned condition to hold there needs to be some kind of trust in the fact that EVENTUALLY people will get it right. Thus, patience is required. It is here that I disagree with the pseudo liberal cabal in the US. They want to get things right their way and immediately. This has mostly lead to disasters. Once one is commited to democracy, one has to accept fundamentalists in Waziristan (?), Gujrat, Iran, Tunisia or the Communists in Bengal or what have you. You will agree that there is much more democracy in Iran than in Saudi Arabia (or Pakistan?), though just after the revolution there was much more ``fundamentalism`` in Iran. My point is that to let democratic institutions develop, you may choose to fight the Jamaat politically but you cannot take away their right to democratically (and that includes recruiting workers through social service) capture the state. You may say then what next, what if they destroy democracy? I say so be it, because I believe that EVENTUALLY people will get it right. Moreover, the democracy so evolved would be much stronger than the democracy imposed from above.

Regards.