Escalation of Hostilities in Middle East

#549 hamidmji
homicidal islamists, homicidal christians/jewish neocons, what`s the diff?
Neither side minds the killing of civilians. Dubya sheds crocodile tears for the civilians dead and the US DOD ships off precision-guided bombs on an expedited basis to israel.

#557
Seems it`s only the civilians that are dying and it`s the civilian infrastructure that`s in tatters and it`s the civilians that are mainly complaining.
Israeli military`s initial justification for destroying bridges and roads and the airport was ``to prevent the kidnapped soldiers from being moved to iran.`` Even they weren`t talking about targetting hizbullah. It`s like bringing democracy to iraq when the initial rationale didn`t pan out.
Israel`s logic and american support for it could easily be used to justify 9/11.

& what is Bhangi Pakistani canine on the Bush-leash upto? Preparing to serve his Maalik, aaqua, maula, Maee Baap.

This drunkard & womaniser is following the footsteps of Yahyaa Khan & is determined to sell-off the country plot-by-plot to his goraa-maasters.

But he knows not what happens to his type. The leash will become his noose.


http://www.irna.ir/en/news/view/menu-234/0607278583002847.htm

Iran, Afghanistan and Tajikistan condemn attacks against Lebanon Dushanbe, July 27, IRNA
Iran-Tripartite-Lebanon
Heads of three regional countries, Iran, Afghanistan and Tajikistan, here on Wednesday night, at the end of their tripartite talks, strongly condemned Israel`s attack against Lebanon, asking for an immediate, unconditional end to the aggressive, occupational move.

Gt,

``Is this more or less where you are comming from?``

In terms of political rhetoric, you can say that but there are specific instances that I know from Pakistani politics that would certain vouch for my comments. Similarly, if you research a little abt the RSS behavior in certain circumstances, you will see what I meant.

Though I must qualify my statement here abt the RSS. RSS is still doing its politics extreme or not, in semi-democratic environments so it does not have to entirely rely on strong arming opposition to achieve its political goals. So, the political environments in India soften its approach.

Whereas in Pakistan, due to the lack of the process or an established political process, the JI and the Mullah would always attempt to strong-arm their opponents first.

I think you need to look at the whole process of terrorism in its true social context to figure out why political parties with similar ideologies behave differently in changed circumstances.

In Pakistan and also in Palestine or in Lebanon, chances of gaining a political upper hand thru muscles are much more easier than in Indian where eventually even the RSS has to comply with the political process to gain seats in the assembly or in the national politics.

I hope I made my point clear.

one man`s terrorist another man`s freedom fighter. iraqi pm, currently visiting the u.s, belongs to dawa party. check out the background of dawa party:

http://hnn.us/roundup/entries/10514.html

The Associated Press

February 11, 1984, Saturday

Trial Of Bomb Blast Defendants Opens

Twenty-one defendants accused of bombing the U.S. and French Embassies last December were formally arraigned today, as their trial began under extreme security.

To be tried in absentia are four defendants who are at large, the prosecutor general said.

Five people were killed and 86 injured in the rash of bombings on Dec. 12. Besides the U.S. and French embassies, four Kuwaiti targets were bombed.

The prosecution has demanded the death penalty for 19 of the defendants...Most of them said they belonged to Al-Dawa (Islamic Call) Party, an Iraqi movement of Shiite Moslem fanatics who are pro-Iranian, said court sources who asked not to be identified.

Re: # 586

HP,

Thanks for making your position clearer. The analogy with the RSS helped. This is how I now understand it:

The RSS does several good things and a lot of other bad (coercive) things. The good things are to be appreciated and coercion, per se, is a necessary evil of political competition. I am ideologically opposed to the RSS ideology. To fight the RSS I need to relatively do more good and/or strategically counter their their coercion such that my ideology wins. In the process if I have to call them ``gangsters`` I will (even when my own tactics allow me to be labelled a ``gangster``). Furthermore, if the RSS were to gain political capital from the the deeds of the Zionists then I would label the Zionists ``gangsters`` too. Is this more or less where you are comming from? Perhaps, this is why my (irrational) sympathy lies with the Hez .... and strangely it is inspite of my being opposed to their ideology. Talk about grey areas!

p.s. Please do not quote me on my Hez. sympathies. I still maintain that both sides are to blame.

here is an interesting account of the creation of hizbullah. unlike jamatis, hizbullah has been in the trenches, it enjoys popular support and its leaders dont go riding around in 4x4. there are jehadis in pak who have been in the trenches. none of them however enjoy popular support:

http://www.aljazeerah.info/Opinion%20editorials/2003%20Opinion%20Editorials/May/7%200/The%20history%20of%20Hizbullah,%20By%20Marc%20Sirois.htm

The history of Hizbullah,

By Marc Sirois
YellowTimes.org

The war between Israel and Hizbullah was not simply born. It was conceived in a seething cauldron of all the things that make the Middle East a snake pit of unending bloodshed, unrivaled bitterness, and unfathomable duplicity.

To understand how this violent relationship might evolve in the future, and how the international community can most effectively seek to keep it under control, it is best to start at the beginning - the real one, rather than the red herrings bred by a mainstream media that is alternately guilty of gross ignorance and shameless fabrication.


...In effect, the Arab world`s major players had abandoned two of its weakest links to one another. All that remained was for the Israelis to appreciate the gulf that had been opened up and dive in.

...On the Muslim side, a new split was shaping up. By 1978, Lebanon`s Shiites, a badly neglected under-class, were probably the largest religious group in the country if not yet an outright majority. Heavily represented in the South, their towns and villages bore the brunt of Israeli reprisals for Palestinian attacks. In addition, once the border strip was taken over, the proximity of Israeli combat forces put the Palestinians under greater strain than ever. They reacted by implementing tougher security measures, eventually imposing a de facto government on what had become known as ``Fatahland`` after the PLO`s dominant faction, Yasser Arafat`s Fatah.


...Just over six months after the Israelis arrived in the South, the kettle of rage among a community that had once invited them into their homes finally boiled over. On Nov. 11, a suicide bomber destroyed an eight-story building housing the IDF`s headquarters in the occupied city of Tyre. At least 75 Israeli troops and members of its proxy militia, the South Lebanon Army, were killed.

Hizbullah did not yet exist as we know it today but the ingredients for a Shiite ``awakening`` were all on hand, and the catalyst of Israeli occupation was drawing them to the same place.

...Like their co-religionists everywhere else in the Islamic world, their Sunni counterparts had long treated Lebanon`s Shiites as second-class citizens. By the mid-1970s, despite being the country`s most populous sect, they were tired of a political system that froze them out of key leadership positions. The set-up, based on the colonial model imposed by the French, guaranteed half of the country`s parliamentary seats and Cabinet positions including key portfolios like the defense and interior ministries to Christians. The Presidency was reserved specifically for a Maronite Christian.

...Shiites were denied even a proper share of the remainder, with Sunni representation among the ruling elite remaining unduly heavy and even the tiny Druze sect holding more than its share of influence. Those Shiites who were politically active were fragmented, operating under the banner of secular groupings like the Baathists, the Communists, and the Nasserites.

One man tried mightily to change all that. Musa Sadr, an Iranian cleric whose family is said to have originally come from Lebanon, was invited to lead the Lebanese Shiite community in 1959. Tall and exceedingly charismatic, he captured the imagination of his followers and eventually inspired them to demand their rights.

GT

I appreciate your post.
There is a background to what I wrote. If you are not familiar with that, you will find my comments simplistic. But if you study the phenomenon, you will get the context right.

````Hamas and the Hez. provide relief, (informal) insurance and credit markets through networks,``

Companies need to recruit new hires; politicians and political parties need to recruit workers that can be turned in to ideological soldiers. The Islamist parties use social work to recruit people. That is the investment they make to get people to work with them politically.

Jammat Islami has a huge wing for social work and they use the whole thing to attract workers and locate people that are sympathetic to their cause.

Regular political parties work with student unions and labor unions to recruit workers....It is a matter of what method you use to bring people into the political fold.

I would recommend you look at the RSS methods of recruitment and you will find the same pattern...There is no fear of god factor here...it is all abt workers...

GT:
The real gangsters are the US & its acolyte ``muslim`` rulers. If the US is against them then it is a clear sign that they are , no matter how misguided, a friend of ours. In this respect even China & Russia are playing a good game of letting US bleed in Afghanistan & Iraq.

Once these thuGGs get properly bludgeoned , bloodied, and beaten they wil try to work to save face. Just as they did in VietNam , Cuba, Nicaragua & so many other places.

They are hated by most people in the world. It is axiomatic. Of course their slaves keep on harping `` `` Massa! are WE sick``.

Re: # 582

PS: I mean - these people are killing each other centuries in worst possible ways - but we have never heard anyone of them saying ``enough is enough``... that this is where it ends... that we need to move on... that we are human beings and can muster enough brain-power to solve this ``dispute``.... that we can co-exist like civilized people.... That our children should never ever have to die with butterfly concussions or holes in their backs....

No sir - this will never happen... good sense will never prevail among them... it`s so primal, the hatred is so overwheling....

Re: # 579

HP:

``imo, the Jammat Isalmi and the mullah in Pakistan are not politicians but are gangsters who take advantage of the political process. Hamas and Hezballah fall in the same category. They just operate in different environments to show their true colors.``

I do not know anything about the Jammat, but it is very simplistic to term the Hamas and the Hez. as gangsters. Ever heard of Robin Hood? Hamas and the Hez. provide relief, (informal) insurance and credit markets through networks, platforms for dispute resolution etc. Sure they also provide ``justice`` and protect the ``sovereignity`` of their ``people``. You may disagree with their methods but how different are these methods from the methods of the Indian and Pakistani states? Can ``extortions`` be equated with ``taxes``. Ultimately, you side with or oppose Robin Hood on the basis of his ideology versus yours. As you said earlier, I think, it is ultimately a battle between ideologies - or the norms of civilization. Furthermore, in a fight between two ideologies a third ideology need not ally itself with either. For me, in this war both sides are to blame. I think the Hez. knew exactly what Israel`s reaction would be. It wanted this reaction and got it. It is Israel who got it wrong this time.

In the previous paragraph I have abstracted from the ground realities of Pakistani politics. It could very well be true that in the political context of Pakistan, one needs to take sides. I do not clearly understand why though.

zeemax, VRV

The images are horrible - the image of a child with a hole on his back brought tears to my eyes...

We have Israeli girls writing on bombs and we have pali families dressing up their toddlers in suicide bomber outfits... we have lebanese children with holes in their backs and israeli children dead with ``butterfly effect`` [from concussion of the suicide bombs]...

Like I said before - this is tribal warfare - these people will never learn to live together... they will continue to kill and brutalize each other until hell freezes over... these people have no future....

So, horrible as the images are - there is nothing we can do for these people - except to wag our heads in disgust and get on with our lives.... let the fools kill and die as they please....

Re: # 579

hp,

.......... exactly my position on this islamic parties of various hues - they will not go away that easily........ defeating them ``politically`` sounds like a good idea on paper, but i firmly believe that if they were to gain power, like they did in iran, it will be very difficult to get rid of them and will involve a lot of bloodshed ............. remember we are not talking about ordinary political parties that believe in a man made constitution - these people take their instructions directly from god ............. and personally i don`t trust people who hear voices

Re: # 537 by hamidm2 on July 26, 2006 11:18am PT

Dear Hamid:

Please don`t be intellectually honest by saying

{......... it is about time we came out from under the effect of arab imperialism and gave up on this notion that somehow we have anything in common with them

...... next time you meet a hindoo, look into his eyes and you will see your ancestor`s soul in them; look into an arab`s eyes and you will see your ancestors` tormentor ............ }

Generally, for muslims for the most part arab imperialism is Islam. Is it not? Poor muslim souls have so much anguish and so much torment. Why are you a thinking man?

When will ya`ll be able to resolve it?

If the arabs to ask for forgiveness collectively, will that resolve it?

Respectfully submitted,

#567 by masadi
“Describing them as fanatic organizations just because of label is also not justified. They will blend away once the conflict is resolved, the reason for their existence will vanish,”

Asadi, I cannot pass this statement w/o a comment. I think you are missing on some basic information abt these organizations. Please study the rise of Ikhawans in Egypt and Jamat Islami in Pakistan.

They will not blend away they will have to be politically defeated and in the current environments in many Muslim countries, that is the most difficult task for any government or political operatives. There is nothing in their ideology that suggests melting away.

imo, the Jammat Isalmi and the mullah in Pakistan are not politicians but are gangsters who take advantage of the political process. Hamas and Hezballah fall in the same category. They just operate in different environments to show their true colors.

Re: # 558

Zeemax:

``Did Israel miscalculate?``

I think that they seriously miscalculated. An ex major and an ex captain, with no credible fighting history and under populist political pressure, got things very wrong. Now they are in a major fix: they showed the world that the hez. is a major fighting force. Israel cannot retreat now, they cannot heed calls for a cease-fire. They have to show that they can deal with the hez. For that they have to commit ground troops and bear major casualties. Right now there seems to be a muzzle on the Israeli press. But I would be surprised if the process has not started as we talk.