Escalation of Hostilities in Middle East

Re: # 567

Dear masadi:

{HP sahib, you are choosing the wrong side in this conflict, the side of fascism which will never promote a liberal agenda. The US will keep the rest of the thrid world in pseudo slavery, making pacts and bonds with them will never benefit out people and will make sure that conditions exist in which the fascists on the other side, the mullah group, fluorishes.}

I don`t think so. US is still the beacon of freedom and humanity in this kind of world. It is the forces of darkness which is resisting to be enlightened, and US will continue to fight these forces.

It is the muslim leaders of this world who are totally fascist and who want to implement their brand of civilization that should be checked and cleared from the annals of humanity.

Respectfully submitted,

after reading the comments here, i think some people just don`t like the fact that hezbollah has the word, ``ollah`` in its name. that is why they are supporting the bombing of lebanon. and the fact that nasrullah has a beard and wears that black round hat.

last names can always be a problem, as can one`s dress sense. perhaps hezbollah should change its name to just, ``hezb.`` and nasrullah should change his name to, ``nasr.`` and he should shave, wear a suit and/or a baseball cap.

seriously speaking, i think a lot of peoples` views on israel`s attack would change.........

all said and done, it is still difficult to figure out what israel is getting all worked up over: two soldies captured and six civilians killed over six years! that`s one civilian per year and one soldier per three years. pretty low numbers for countries which are in a conflict.
india and pakistan used to average this much in one week. israel, itself, regularly hits these numbers in a day. on the other side, in palestine, one israeli soldier has been captured. israel has 10,000 palestinian civilians in jail. i didn`t even know the numbers were this high. 1 vs 10,000. israel should be happy with this ratio. everyone in the world knows about that one guy, i doubt anyone could name any of the 10,000.

in every category of confrontation, israel has a huge lead over lebanon and palestine: no. of people captured, no of people killed, amount of ammo dropped, amount of land occupied. what more does it want.

this could actually set a dangerous precedence. tomorrow india and pakistan would attack lahore and delhi after shelling each other, across the loc or taking each other`s fisherman hostage.......imagine if pakistan launched an assault on delhi, similar to israel`s assualt on beirut, after a shell hit pakistan`s part of kashmir or abdul and javed were taking hostage at the rajastan border.....poeple would say pakistan was nuts.....they would say the same thing about india, if india did the same.......

i still say, israel should send back the nine lebanese prisoners and hezbollah should send back the two israeli guys. they should then continue their small time shelling across the border, which kills one person per year. much like all countries in conflict do.........this is what is eventually going to happen anyways after this conflict is over..........

Re: # 570 by hamidm2 on July 26, 2006 12:58pm PT

Hamid,

{.... i don`t feel any kinship with the arabs and somehow (please don`t ask me to explain why) i just don`t like them - nothing personal, i also don`t like snakes, mormons and barry manilow ......... i am more concerned about the spotted owl and the blue whales ..........}

Agreed, untold miseries have been inflicted upon humanity by arabs, under the banner of Islam. If only today`s arabs can collectively ask for forgiveness, will that quench your anger towards arabs?

Respectfully submitted,

#567 by masadi

Asadi, we are getting deeper in to a discussion that would require whole lot of time for me to spare. I will try but can’t promise a response on this board. However, there is always a need for flexibility when you deal with political matters and imo, politics is not a science, it is still a matter of how you deal with situations at hand or plan for dealing with them in future and how you play different factors and forces in your favor and how you time things.

Now I am not going to repeat the cliché of grey areas here but things are not as one two three as they may appear to many distant observers.

“#568 by echoboom

``I cannot recall the euphoria after meeting Rasool Bux Talpur and Qazi Abid. Sindh still is our thinking crucible left after Bangladesh.”

I have strong family association the late Qazi Abid and had met Rasool Bux Talpur many times. I did meet Bhutto when he was PM. You and I both know what type of politicians they were. I am not sure I ever felt any euphoria abt them but certainly for a young man meeting the PM in close settings was exciting.

You are right abt Sindh, it is tragic that the army with the help of Islamist, has destroyed the intellectual base in Sindh.

Zeema said:
Yaar Hamidm .. Kashmir is NOT our war because Kashmir was CEDED legally to India when YOUR army tried to play tricks in return for India`s doing the same thing on Junagadh and Hyderabad ....

Op Gulmarg (tribal invasion of Kashmir): 22 Oct, 1947
Op Polo (Indian ``police action`` against Hyderabad): September 12, 1948
Indian Army moves into Junagadh: November 9, 1947

#568 by echoboom

There is none more passionate than a ``liberal`` wronged or scorned.

``hUm ney jiss tarah tujhhay chhorRaa hai, hUm jaantay haiN``.

Echoboom, we have buried our cherished Prince of liberal idealism with tears of blood, six feet down under, and shoveled tons of earth on it, with our own hands.

But few will understand that. As stated in bold letters above ... sirf, ``Hum jaantay haiN.``

Re: # 565

zeemax,

..... at least kashmir is in the neighborhood and i have a lot of kashmiri friends who sell carpets and cheap wooden carvings on canning road .......... and i am not advocating that we should start a war in kashmir unless we are absolutely sure that we can win it - and that won`t happen for at least a hundred years; so there is no point in talking about it because at that point who knows what will happen - with global warming and all .........

........ my point was much much simpler - i don`t feel any kinship with the arabs and somehow (please don`t ask me to explain why) i just don`t like them - nothing personal, i also don`t like snakes, mormons and barry manilow ......... i am more concerned about the spotted owl and the blue whales ..........

guess who else believed in collective security for muslims and injustice in the m.e. would lead to war in the islamic world. hint: islamic world has not produced many like him in recent times:

Duncan Hooper, correspondent of Reuter interviewed Jinnah today. Answering a question about Pakistan`s attitude towards the partition plan for Palestine, Jinnah stated: ``The leader of our delegation to the UNO, Sir Mohammad Zafrullah Khan, has clearly defined out position regarding the latest developments in Palestine and I do still hope that the partition plan will be rejected, otherwise it is bound to be the gravest disaster and unprecendented conflict, not only between the Arabs and the authority that would undertake to enforce the partition plan, but the entire Muslim world will revolt against such a decision which cannot be supported historically, politically or morally.``

Zeemax; HP
``Voh khwaab suhaana toot gaya``

That was the dream of the second generation Pakistanis like me which was blown to smithereens. I had two meetings with ZAB alongwith my Palestinian friends & joined his party at JA Rahim`s house as one of the very first few registrants.

and HP , I cannot recall the euphoria after meeting Rasool Bux Talpur and Qazi Abid. Sindh still is our thinking crucible left after Bangladesh.

We saw salvation then after Faiz had announced `` Chalay chalo kay voh manzil abhhee naheeN aaee``--Continue on the trail, that we have yet to reach that destination.

I am reluctanly opening these wounds for exhibition here. There are many more & I`ll desist.

So who let us down?

Do I have to write it down?
There is none more passionate than a ``liberal`` wronged or scorned.

``hUm ney jiss tarah tujhhay chhorRaa hai, hUm jaantay haiN``.

HP in #504, writes <<< #463 by masadi

I think you are just getting emotional over some of Hamid’s remarks.
A few things Hamid says need serious and rational consideration. >>>

Nothing emotional in my post, just trying to explain to him that his comments on people being vermin flow easily because he can say them without experiencing what those people are going through because of Israeli barbarism. Nothing that he says deserves rational consideration, he merely parrots the official Israeli and adminstration positions, even to the dot, which should be considered plagirism since he doesn`t acknowledge this borrowing.

HP writes <<< The situation does present a dilemma for the liberals in Pakistan and the Middle East. Despite our support for the Arab struggle, could we possibly support two religious/sectarian and fanatic organizations currently at the forefront of this struggle? >>>

As we know and you have agreed, those are products of Israeli manipulation and the situation that predates both those organizations. Describing them as fanatic organizations just because of label is also not justified. They will blend away once the conflict is resolved, the reason for their existence will vanish, they will exist and fluorish when the civil society is destroyed like it was in Afghanistan and as it is being done by Israel in Lebanon and was done in Palestine. Hamid does not want a resolution of the problem, he wants US/Israel overlordship which will ensure that fanatacism fluorishes. Why you side with him on the issue is not because of any rationality that he is presenting but because of your dislike for religion, though using a broad brush to paint religion and Islam in this fashion is also not justified.

HP writes <<< We sure wouldn’t like mullah Fazal or Qazi Hussain to lead Pakistan in the near or distant future. We have fought with them and their allies in the streets in our youth and sure wouldn’t like to do that allover again. They are simply not acceptable if Pakistan and Pakistanis have to make some progress in future >>>

Neither would I, their wrath is directed more against Muslims that might differ from their narrow understanding of ``Islam`` moreso than any liberals, and I have witnessed their wrath firsthand. What you are missing in this is the ``big`` picture, these forces got strenghtened by the military institution in Pakistan when it was in the intererst of the Americans that the military in Pakistan behave in that fashion, now you think that the major ``cause`` of this problem, the Americans by fact or proxy, are going to solve this issue for the benefit of Pakistan? They will never solve it when it is to their advantage to keep this farcial ``war on terror`` going. You are going down the wrong path my friend. America has always led the third world into one catastrophy after another, it will do nothing to fix it and you cannot form a bond with dictators like Musharraf, kept in place due to American geostrategy, to push a ``liberal`` agenda. That is just totally inconsistent and consistency is a major principle in rationality, which you are asking me to practice, and I have been in all my posts.

Tahmed cries crocodile tears about love for Pakistan and Muslims, while calling for US dictatorship in that area, just like the crocodile tears Rice is crying in Lebanon even as she does not ask for a ceasefire or the crocodile tears that the Neo Cons were crying in their ``care`` for the Iraqis as pretext for the war in which total barbarism is going on as we speak. You talk about rationality, look at their statements, calls for a ceasefire are brushed aside in favor of a ``substantive ceasefire`` by which they mean war until the enemy is defeated. Well, that my friends is called surrender not a ceasefire. You can describe a sh*t pile as chocolate cake but it doesn`t make it so.

Whoever opposes the fasist agend of America in the third world, which considers the vast majority of human beings on earth, even their own people as vermin and works for power to the people while maintianing principles of justice and rationality, is my friend, I don`t care what label he or she carries. You are a smart person, don`t let prejudice guide attribution of blame and decisions regarding justice.

HP sahib, you are choosing the wrong side in this conflict, the side of fascism which will never promote a liberal agenda. The US will keep the rest of the thrid world in pseudo slavery, making pacts and bonds with them will never benefit out people and will make sure that conditions exist in which the fascists on the other side, the mullah group, fluorishes. That is not the way to go, these AHs like hamid want that to exist otherwise the whole purpose behind their dim wit rant is taken away.

#563 by VRV

Sure :-)

#554 by hamidm2

Yaar Hamidm .. Kashmir is NOT our war because Kashmir was CEDED legally to India when YOUR army tried to play tricks in return for India`s doing the same thing on Junagadh and Hyderabad .... now if Kashmiris want something else they need to fight on their own as a secessionist movement ... it is upto them .... why`re we destroying what is left of Pakistan over this? What do Palestinians got to do with it? Kashmir is LEGALLY a part of India and anyone who supports a secessionist movement is interfering illegally. Just like you blame India in helping East Pakistan to secede ...

Got it? I guess not ...

#562 by zeemax on July 26, 2006 12:36pm PT


And yes, I do not believe 7/7 was carried out by three Pak immigrants


They weren`t immigrants..They were brit-born...with opportunities that the majority of a billion Indians and 150 million pakis can only dream about..

your belief in their innocence has everything to do with the fact that the accused are muslim and you follow the ``muslim = innocent victims`` school of jurisprudence...what`re the chances that you don`t believe Rajiv Gandhi was whacked by a tamil tiger suicide bomber? Nada..

Re: # 562

Zeemax,

I dont think we need to say apologies. Anyway, nice of you.

I dont like to change your opion on 7/7.

We can meet on some other board firing at each other!?...

VRV

#551 by VRV

VRV, thanks for this post, and in return I offer my sincere apology for what I had said before to you, despite your provocations in the past. I hope you`ll accept it.

You are a humanist ... just like me. I have no hesitation in saying that, whether Hindu, Muslim, or Jew.

And yes, I do not believe 7/7 was carried out by three Pak immigrants and a black carribean immigrant. But that`s neither here nor there.