Escalation of Hostilities in Middle East

There is no need for a cease fire. Muslims are cowards. Where is your bravery now? Stand up and fight the evil Joooo. Instead, the brave Ghazis are pissing in their pants and begging the world to come and save them. Where is your valour and your 1 Ghazi equals 10 Kaffir equation.

Israel should wipe out the Hizb rats. Then Lebanon can will be truly liberated. As long as these hizbollah goondas live in lebanon there can be no ever lasting peace. Just a fake and a temporary one.

The World opinion strongly favours Israel. After 9/11 even the Western World is now fully awake to Leftist + Islamic propaganda. Most westerners now see Islam as fascism and nothing else. European Govts will soon catch up with that sentiment.

krishna_abcd
Here`s something you should pass on to the FBI or your neighborhood vigilance squad -
In my considered opinion, George Bush is infinitely more evil than Osama.
So there!

abcd writes <<< I saw in another post how you were explaining to someone how Islam is the best thing in the world because it creates a great society. >>>

A straw-man fallacy, when unable to deal with what is being argued against, the person invents a ``straw man``- a totally detached scenario, detached from the discussion from the issue and any and every context, showing that he has been completely stumped by what is being discussed. He might call me an idiot but every dimwit argument he has brought forth has been dismantled, and shown to be either juvenile, borrowed and illegally/illogically applied or overused. Create phantoms and fight against them for in the ``real`` world, Mr. abcd you ``intelligence`` (the lack thereof) does not stand a chance.

abcd writes <<< For Serbia, I never heard a peep from any Muslim.

So I do not need a statistical survey. >>>

To make a scientific conclusion you do need a scientific sample not a casual glance based upon your prejudice and making the same argument that Republicans make against Democrats using the same situation, an overused, ill thought out argument of the tu quoque variety. What the TV presents is no measure of ``reality``, it is a matter of what happens to be on their agenda. I didn`t see much coverage or condemnation when the Bosnia massacre of Muslims was going on either, even in Muslim lands, does that ``prove`` that Muslims were cheering it on? The direction of determination goes from the media to public opinion, which contours it, especially in the West and not the other way around. The media does not reflect ``public opinion``. And why should Muslims go out of their way to protest invasion of a country that had been massacring them a few years back? Does it make any sense. Will the Hindu public take to the streets to protest invasion by a third country of Pakistan, if the Pakistanis had run all over India slaughtering Hindus? Get a grip on reality.

#668 Ajeya

[ if you have to read that same boring stuff ad nauseam and have to stand up and sit down five times a day that`s fine, but quit shouting, will you?]

Quit shouting? What do you expect the guy to do - actually work for a living? Keep on hoping.

The track record is impeccable so far. The only ``accomplishment`` the Pakistanis appear to have is how to scare Uncle Sam by shouting ``the Mullahs are coming....`` and grabbing loads of dough - while keeping the same mullahs and their ginned-up boys handy as useful tools to be brought up sooner or later.

Pakistani fauzis are the tops, of course - they have mastered the art of mooching off a whole nation - in perpetuity.

Pakistani ``intellectuals`` - when you are done laughing, just call them cork-less!

The progeny of Jinnah - what a bunch of characters!

Shame? What shame?!

Look ma! Ye umm-maah....uff uie maa!!!

#667 by masadi


[Firstly such a sampling, if what you say is true and you did indeed survey ALL newspapers in arab and Muslim lands and found no mention of it, which I find highly unlikely and quite impossible, would still me unscientific, and that is because the newspapers in those lands do not reflect the profile or the views of the masses- unlike the war on iraq in which actual public surveys have been carried out. ]

I do not have to do such a sampling. Even if you watch TV once in a while, you hear the Muslims screaming day in and day out about Iraq all over the world. It has been difficult to escape, especially when the war started. For Serbia, I never heard a peep from any Muslim.

So I do not need a statistical survey.



[Second, whereas Iraq and Afghanistan are quite familiar to the public in Pakistan, a land like Bosnia or Serbia is quite distant and unfamiliar, which can be another reason. How many stories do you find in the US media about geographical locations in which wars are going on, many in Africa, where the US government has little interest and public opinion is non existent? ]

Iraq is unfamiliar enough to many people as well. Muslims only take notice when their Mullahs start screaming every friday about how some Muslim is being oppressed somewhere somehow. That`s how it spreads. For a Indonesian peasant, Bosnia and Iraq are both very far away. Until the Ummah takes notice.


[So like I suggested to your other friend on the other thread, you have no clothes on, so cover your shame and run along.]

You have the attitude down pat - with all this ``run along``, ``cover your shame`` stuff, but you are very much behind on substance.

You may not realize it, but you are an idiot. On almost every argument, you are demonstrably wrong, although you write volumes about every Islamic issue under the sun. I saw in another post how you were explaining to someone how Islam is the best thing in the world because it creates a great society. Have you ever paused to think that there might be people who are NOT interested in Islamic laws for their society? Who are just fine with the High Court and the Supreme court and democracy? To whom religion means something spiritual? And in any case, have you noticed how Islamic societies are behind everybody else everywhere?

What is it that made you guys this way? Reading that stupid stuff day in and day out, extracting all kinds of quantum physics formulas out of it - what`s wrong with you? Why can`t you just stop and think? I mean, if you have to read that same boring stuff ad nauseam and have to stand up and sit down five times a day that`s fine, but quit shouting, will you?

krishna_abcd <<< There was nothing in the Muslim world when the US attacked Serbia without UN sanctions.

NOW WHY IS THAT NOT GOOD ENOUGH PROOF? >>>>

Firstly such a sampling, if what you say is true and you did indeed survey ALL newspapers in arab and Muslim lands and found no mention of it, which I find highly unlikely and quite impossible, would still me unscientific, and that is because the newspapers in those lands do not reflect the profile or the views of the masses- unlike the war on iraq in which actual public surveys have been carried out.

Second, whereas Iraq and Afghanistan are quite familiar to the public in Pakistan, a land like Bosnia or Serbia is quite distant and unfamiliar, which can be another reason. How many stories do you find in the US media about geographical locations in which wars are going on, many in Africa, where the US government has little interest and public opinion is non existent?

So like I suggested to your other friend on the other thread, you have no clothes on, so cover your shame and run along.

#664 Ajeya

[We are not debating policies of governments here. American policy may have been wrong. Their invasion of Iraq might have been wrong. But they were not targeting civilians when they invaded Iraq. The hugely overwhelming majority of the civilians killed in Iraq WAS DONE BY THE INSURGENTS - a hodge-podge alliance of Baathists and foriegn fighters.]

Well said! Even though it is most likely wasted effort on the hopelessly prejudiced Pakistanis!

#661 by soysauce


[You sound like a cyber jihadi.
Instead of sitting in front of the monitor hoping that one set of people finish off another set,...]


Because I hope that the Israeli finish off the Hezbollah therefore I am a cyber-jehadi?


[...or that the FBI comes after someone whose opinions you don`t value,...]


No.

There is a fight going on in this world today. There is the Al-Quaeda and the Islamists onone side. And there is the US (with its often unjust foreign policy) and Humanity on the other side.

By your own statements, you have drawn an equivalence between Al-Quaeda and the US Government.

So you ARE on the side of Al-Quaeda and the ISlamists. Other than rooting for them, you might be aiding and abetting them - financially and otherwise.

So it is in MY interest, and the FBI`s, as well as all of Humanity`s, that FBI pay you a visit.

As simple as that.



[...have you considered doing something worthwhile with your life?]


``Worthwhile`` - by your difinition? That would mean joining the jehadis.

I think you and the Jehadis can do without me.

Thanks, but I`ll pass.

#658 by soysauce

[Thanks for the help but your thought experiment is helpful only to illustrate the point that you see things in black and white - there is an organized army and then there are the terrorists - the former are the good guys and the latter the bad guys, etc. etc.. ]

Organized army, terrorists..... that was NOT my point at all. The point is about morality - not whether you are organized or big in size.


[If you rephrased the question and ask ``could you imagine a village full of uninvolved civilians as collateral damage`` the answer i suspect would be ``yes`` from all sides. In this sense there`s no distinction. ]

This is where lefties lose out in the argument. Collateral damage is when you are trying to kill ONLY the armed combatants, but other people ALSO get hurt in the process because the terrorists are using them as cover.

The terrorists, on the other hand, are often trying to kill ONLY civilians.

See the difference? No?



[If you ask was it wrong of one sovereign nation, iraq, to invade another sovereign nation, kuwait, take it over and install a friendly government, the answer from americans would be yes, it was wrong and unacceptable. What should be done to them? Bomb them back a few centuries. If you ask the same question with iraq replaced by the US and kuwait by Iraq, americans would have no problems with that. ]

We are not debating policies of governments here. American policy may have been wrong. Their invasion of Iraq might have been wrong. But they were not targeting civilians when they invaded Iraq. The hugely overwhelming majority of the civilians killed in Iraq WAS DONE BY THE INSURGENTS - a hodge-podge alliance of Baathists and foriegn fighters.



[People in general see themselves as good and moral and it`s the others who are different who are awful and wicked. It`s true of the israelis as it is of the hizbullah. ]

This is irrelevant to this argument.

#662 by masadi

[Really, where is your survey to prove that. Once again a tu quoque to justify barbarism. The Republicans on Fox have used the exact same arguments against anti-war democrats. It is an overused abused bs argument.]

There are millions of articles in the press, TV interviews, talk shows, protests, public outcries - you name it - amongst the Muslims the world over about Iraq.

There was nothing in the Muslim world when the US attacked Serbia without UN sanctions.

NOW WHY IS THAT NOT GOOD ENOUGH PROOF?

HUH?

arjun writes <<< Muslims were ok with the US attacking serbia >>>

Really, where is your survey to prove that. Once again a tu quoque to justify barbarism. The Republicans on Fox have used the exact same arguments against anti-war democrats. It is an overused abused bs argument.

#657
I missed this gem:
By your earlier logic, you are saying that Al Quaeda is not guilty of anything, or at the most as guilty as anybody else, like the US or Britain. I hope FBI finds out where you live and examine your life in detail.

By the way, are you from Tamil Nadu? (just curious)

You sound like a cyber jihadi.
Instead of sitting in front of the monitor hoping that one set of people finish off another set, or that the FBI comes after someone whose opinions you don`t value, have you considered doing something worthwhile with your life?

#659 huh? i said people in general don`t see their own actions as bad. True of muslims, hindus, etc.. Atheists may be an exception since they have their own conscience to deal with, not some phantom entity like god...

#658 by soysauce on July 28, 2006 11:16am PT

Muslims were ok with the US attacking serbia, a country that posed less of a threat than Iraq, without a UN resolution...

#657
Thanks for the help but your thought experiment is helpful only to illustrate the point that you see things in black and white - there is an organized army and then there are the terrorists - the former are the good guys and the latter the bad guys, etc. etc..
If you rephrased the question and ask ``could you imagine a village full of uninvolved civilians as collateral damage`` the answer i suspect would be ``yes`` from all sides. In this sense there`s no distinction.
If you ask was it wrong of one sovereign nation, iraq, to invade another sovereign nation, kuwait, take it over and install a friendly government, the answer from americans would be yes, it was wrong and unacceptable. What should be done to them? Bomb them back a few centuries. If you ask the same question with iraq replaced by the US and kuwait by Iraq, americans would have no problems with that.
People in general see themselves as good and moral and it`s the others who are different who are awful and wicked. It`s true of the israelis as it is of the hizbullah.

#629 by soysauce

[Let`s see. Nazis were in power when they rounded up the jews. I guess the difference is apparent to you because coincidentally you happen to live in the country that votes in one set of homicidal maniacs and your loyalty is unexamined and automatic.
The firebombing of dresden or wholesale evisceration of hiroshima or nagasaki are comparable in scale and level of deprivation to the holocaust.
Just because you do one kind of killing from a distance - where you drop missiles with phosphor (as in lebanon) or sharp objects (as in gaza) from air on civilian areas and call it collateral damage, does not differentiate you from a man with a backpack walking into a cafe and blowing everyone up.
Osama calls 9-11 a collateral damage of the reaction to american foreign policy.]


Because you have decided, like Socrates, to examine your life, let me help you examine this particular thought process:


If you asked IDF the question - ``There is a town square full of ONLY Lebanese women and children, but absolutely no Hezbollah operatives, would you want to go bomb them?``, the answer would be ``No``. (Although Islamists keep saying that Israelis want to intentionally kill civilians).

But if you asked terrorists - ``There is a town square full of ONLY Israeli women and children, but absolutely no Israeli army personnel, would you want to go bomb them?``, the answer would be ``You bet!``.

That is the crucial difference.

In the case of Israel, it could choose to turn the town of Bint-Jabil, block by block, into a sandbox, regradless of casualties, and THEN send their army in. But they didn`t. They have sacrificed considerable number of soldier`s lives to instead go in and root out the scum. They have dropped leaflets, and allowed the civilians who wanted to leave, leave. Now a small minority of the civilians remain - they are hardcore HEZ supporters. I hope at theis point IDF does start turning the town into a sandbox.





[If language is all it took to wipe away responsibility, al Quaeda is no longer guilty of anything.]

By your earlier logic, you are saying that Al Quaeda is not guilty of anything, or at the most as guilty as anybody else, like the US or Britain. I hope FBI finds out where you live and examine your life in detail.

By the way, are you from Tamil Nadu? (just curious)

Re: # 653

I dont usually agree with masadi...... but baita behram, you do need some potty training.

#648 by masadi

....the surplus they extract from my work is worth atleast 50 times...

Masadi, if you`re talking about the theory of `surplus value`, it may be advisable to include the wikipedia link so ppl can understand what you`re talking about.

Cheers!

#640 by bulleya

1)... saudi arabia gave free oil to pakistan, in return for what pakistan did for it. there was one whole division of pakistani military protecting the kings. and there is pakistani labor there building their buildings.

So what you`re saying is Saudis gave Pakistan oil for free between 1998-2004 i.e. 6 years, worth $ billions, in return for some khakis ostensibly protecting the kings. Isn`t it that the US bases there are protecting the kings? But never mind. Let`s move to the next point. Pakistani labor there building their buildings. But I thought they were being paid for their labor seperately, or do you mean they were being paid in oil?

2)...why weren`t they investing in pakistan prior to 9/11....

The banking sector investments in Pakistan by Arabs were made as soon as the sector opened up in the 90s such as Bank Alfalah, Faysal Bank, Oman Bank, Al-Baraka group, Al-Meezan group, Pak-Libya, Pak-Kuwait, Pak-Saudi investment companies. In Telecoms, Egypt`s Orascom (Mobilink) arrived in mid-90s as the very first GSM network. In consumer retailing/leisure, the Cupola group of Dubai also opened in 90s which brought in shopping malls and KFC/franchised restaurants etc. In the social sector, Sheikh Zayed Hospital in Lahore was built in the 90s or perhaps before that, plus a multitude of other UAE/Saudi financed schools, colleges and universities including premier institutes such as SZABIST and GIK Institute of Science & Tech.

If you go further back, when the crippling Pressler amendments came into force, the Abu Dhabi Sheikhs had funded Pakistan in a critical time by lending it $350 million through BCCI against the sale of its future rice crop. Saudia and Libya had placed deposits with Pakistani central bank of about $ 500 million combined in the same period (as did China but that`s not relevant here). Then the unconditional Saudi Oil facility after the nuke tests plus more fiscal and balance of payments support. All this was at a time when Pakistan was sanctioned to the hilt, and the prospect of their recovering their money was at best far from assured. These people have bailed-out Pakistan from sovereign default on a number of occasions when noone else was around and IMF was barred from lending to Pak.

A significant point is to see that the investments before 9/11 were all Long-Term. After 9/11 though, some of the short-term investments in quick turnaround businesses has indeed improved, but nothing Long-Term. Reason is that some of the Arab liquidity which had been parked in USA in equities etc has been diverted to projects in Pak such as real-estate development for re-sale which is in fact the largest component of Arab investments as of today.

The point of above paras is that Arab investments in Pak before 9/11 were much more in size and duration and consequently of more benefit to the country, than the hot money flowing in after 9/11.

The fact of the matter is, and it has been proven time and again, that the only friends-in-need Pak has are the Arabs, and China.

Rgds.

Dear Masadi:

You have not been able to rationalize your life because you can not. Being a person of belief you can not respect intellect. As such don`t you ever fool yourself that you are a rational person, because you are not. You spurious and adumberated values are rather obvious.

Besides, the muslim culture that I have grown up in and the one that I like very much has this one of the best qualities. Never trust the intellect, always have faith. A person of faith can never depend on their intellect. Now, you seem to disagree; hence, your flowery rhetoric. You are blowing air through your nostrils like a bull who has seen red. Please stop grunting oink, oink.

Some of my muslim friends would say ``never use brains too much``. Did you know that a fundoos brains are very expensive, since it has never been used?

Masadi, maybe you should listen to your social mores. Over excessive use of your intellect is detrimental to the foundation of your soul. You must never consider yourself an intellectual. On the contrary, you should always consider yourself as a huffing and puffing emotional gorilla, who has all the emotions in the world but no knowledge. Remember knowledge resides in the intellect, which you should have none. Or is it that since you are not a believer of your deen you have no imaan. Would you know where your imaan resides?

Respectfully submitted,

Behram sahib,

(You are an emotional pig)

You could have used the name of some other animal to describe Maulana Masadi (RA), the choice of the word pig was highly provocative and unfortunate.

Regards

comrade masadi...The F-16s will be used against the baloch and the tribals from the NWFP.

Here`s a snippet from the house hearing on the sale of the F-16s to Pakiland...

ROHRABACHER: Especially in their own country. The F-16 would be better than, perhaps, an airplane that costs half as much and had the ability, perhaps, not to fly as far, but would cost half as much and deliver the package.

HILLEN: That was a question for the Pakistan and the modernization of air forces.

I would note, Mr. Rohrabacher, that in our structure of the sale, I referred to before a set of documents never before shared in an arms notification process, between the executive branch and Congress, that I made the decision to share.

And it enumerated the technologies were not, that would usually go with an F-16, that are not part of this deal. And they include ones that would allow the F-16 to be used in offensive ways to penetrate airspace of another country that was highly defended. So, I think that`s worth noting.

So the paki F-16s will come without systems required to penetrate AD systems of another country...but the baloch and the tribals have no AD system...so their goose is cooked(with your tax $$ I might add).

behram writes <<< You are a namak haram, because you have not spoken a single good word about this country ever since you have joined this chowk >>>

Nonsense, this country is not defined by the elite that rape it and the rest of the world, it is defined by its people whose oppression I have been talking against time and again, to be opposed by namak harams like you as you support the political elite who have relegated them to a life of miserable servitude.

Since all you can come up with are Ad Hominems that do not deal with any issues in any rational manner, I see no point in carrying on this BS conversation, didn`t you read what I wrote, ``I rest my case``. Now if you have something that deals with issues and facts and not with me, I`ll be willing to consider it. I might be the worst AH on earth, that still does not make my arguments invalid~ comprendey? If not, I suggest you get some education in logic and argumentation.

---

For the rest consider this real namak-haram-i of the US elite:

11th-hour try to block US F-16 sale to Pakistan
Thu Jul 27, 2006 5:43pm ET

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A handful of U.S. lawmakers have launched an 11th-hour attempt to block the sale of U.S.-made F-16 fighter aircraft to Pakistan but have garnered little immediate support.....Barring a resolution of disapproval in both houses of Congress by this weekend, Bush will have the authority to go ahead with the supply to Pakistan of up to 36 Lockheed Martin Corp. F-16C/D models and related gear worth up to $5.1 billion if all options are exercised....

---

The point is that the unit cost of a third rate F-16, to Pakistan is coming out to be over $130 million when they cost around $25 million in the US, many of them, in the case of war will be destroyed by the IAF on the ground, and yet the Pakistanis are very happy to enrich the military industrialists of the US with enormous profits, then beg the US for a few million in AID out of the billions they`ve given them and take dictations, while conquering its own people at the dictates of the Americans, while the masses have no healthcare, education or even proper nutrition and the tahmeds and hamids on here are not at all bothered by any of this.

Re: # 648 by masadi on July 27, 2006 6:03pm PT

Dear masadi:

So you consider yourself as a namak haram, eh.

{The namak haram-i is done by this nation and those that employ me, the surplus they extract from my work is worth atleast 50 times what they pay me. What they extract from the rest of the world through unjust trade, and gaining contracts from their lackeys is also manifest namak haram-i.}

You are a namak haram, because you have not spoken a single good word about this country ever since you have joined this chowk. You pee in the same katora where you eat food. Is that how you were raised? You have no shame.

You are an emotional pig, always grunting and never making any sense to your intellect. Maybe you have no intellect. Only raw emotions, which are justified only for you because you are a believer. Nothing wrong in being an emotional buffoon as you continue to be.

Do you finally acknowledge that JI has been a religious organization that wants to instill its values on Pakistan? And that you, being a man of faith, can never be an intellectual.

Respectfully submitted,

behram writes <<< you must claim at least some love for this country that you earn your livelihood from. How can you be a namak haram? >>>

The namak haram-i is done by this nation and those that employ me, the surplus they extract from my work is worth atleast 50 times what they pay me. What they extract from the rest of the world through unjust trade, and gaining contracts from their lackeys is also manifest namak haram-i.

Look who weCaptured!

By Arik Diamant, Arab News

It`s the wee hours of the morning, still dark outside. A guerrilla force comes out of nowhere to kidnap a soldier. After hours of careful movement, the force reaches its target, and the ambush is on! In seconds, the soldier finds himself looking down the barrel of a rifle.

A smash in the face with the butt of the gun and the soldier falls to the ground, bleeding. The kidnappers pick him up, quickly tie his hands and blindfold him, and disappear into the night.

This might be the end of the kidnapping, but the nightmare has just begun. The soldier`s mother collapses, his father prays. His commanding officers promise to do everything they can to get him back, his comrades swear revenge. An entire nation is up in arms, writhing in pain and worry.

Nobody knows how the soldier is: Is he hurt? Do his captors give him even a minimum of human decency, or are they torturing him to death by trampling his honor? The worst sort of suffering is not knowing. Will he come home? And if so, when? And in what condition? Can anyone remain apathetic in the light of such drama?

This description, you`ll be surprised to know, has nothing to do with the capture of Gilad Shalit (the Israeli soldier taken prisoner in Gaza). It is the story of an arrest I carried out as an IDF soldier, in the Nablus casbah, about 10 years ago. The ``soldier`` was a 17-year-old boy, and we kidnapped him because he knew ``someone`` who had done ``something.``

We brought him tied up, with a burlap sac over his head, to a Shin Bet interrogation center known as ``Scream Hill`` (at the time we thought it was funny). There, the prisoner was beaten, violently shaken and sleep deprived for weeks or months. Who knows.

No one wrote about it in the paper. European diplomats were not called to help him. After all, there was nothing out of the ordinary about the kidnapping of this Palestinian kid. Over the 40 years of occupation we have kidnapped thousands of people, exactly like Gilad Shalit was captured: Threatened by a gun, beaten mercilessly, with no judge or jury, or witnesses, and without providing the family with any information about the captive.

When the Palestinians do this, we call it ``terror.`` When we do it, we work overtime to whitewash the atrocity.

Some people will say: The IDF doesn`t ``just`` kidnap. These people are ``suspects.`` There is no more perverse lie than this. In all the years I served, I reached one simple conclusion: What makes a ``suspect``? Who, exactly suspects him, and of what?

Who has the right to sentence a 17-year-old to kidnapping, torture and possible death? A 26-year-old Shin Bet interrogator? A 46-year-old one? Do these people have any higher education, apart from the ability to interrogate? What are his considerations? If all these ``suspects`` are so guilty, why not bring them to trial?

Anyone who believes that despite the lack of transparency, the IDF and Shin Bet do their best to minimize violations of human rights is na�ve, if not brainwashed. One need only read the testimonies of soldiers who have carried out administrative detentions to be convinced of the depth of the immorality of our actions in the occupied Palestinian territories.

To this very day, there are hundreds of prisoners rotting in Shin Bet prisons and dungeons, people who have never been - and never will be - tried. And Israelis are silently resolved to this phenomenon.

The day Gilad Shalit was captured I rode in a taxi. The driver told me we must go into Gaza, start shooting people one by one, until someone breaks and returns the hostage. It isn`t clear that such an operation would bring Gilad back alive.

Instead of getting dragged into terrorist responses, as Palestinian society has done, we should release some of the soldiers and civilians we have kidnapped. This is appropriate, right, and could bring about an air of reconciliation in the territories.

Hell, if this is what will bring Gilad home safe and sound, we have a responsibility to him to do it.

- Arik Diamant is an IDF (Israeli Defense Forces) reservist and the head of the Courage to Refuse organization.

masadi

//They want to stifle and stop all reason and argumentation//

coming from a muslim its simply laughable. salman rushdie and taslima nasrin are two of the many victims of this ideology of peace...... what exactly does masadi think about the death penalty for apostates of islam? stifling? no?

#643 by masadi on July 27, 2006 1:00pm PT


They want to stifle and stop all reason and argumentation


Has someone knocked down your door and taken away your computer? No...you`re still posting and arguing right?

so stfu about being a victim..cause you`re not...

Re: # 643 by Masadi on July 27, 2006 1:00pm PT

Dear Masadi:

{They want to stifle and stop all reason and argumentation}

Again, Masadi, you cannot have argument because you are a believer. Your religion and its dogma should answer all your questions. You have no intellect except your firm believe of your scripture.

Is that not true? Would you then agree that JI is a terror organization that spreads hatred amongst innocent Pakistanis? Do you love Pakistan more than your religion Islam?

First, you have to learn being authentic.

{Nothing is beyond reason, not religion, not Allah and certainly not the US constitution.}

Then be bold and profess that nationalism is far greater than your religious belief.

{I pee on that document when it goes against basic human rights and reason,}

But, Masadi, your peeing notwithstanding, you must claim at least some love for this country that you earn your livelihood from. How can you be a namak haram? But, due to your continuous disease of hatred against the non-muslim west you are unable to consider this as namak harami.

Is that true? How shameful can you be with your assertion that you believe in Allah and at the same time you can provide intellectual argument.

Wow! The location of your intellect is close to your pubic hair.

Respectfully submitted,

behram writes to HP <<< You as a person can criticize whatever and whosoever you want and that is your right as a human, but once you chose to accept the values of this new society, automatically you should remove yourself from criticism. >>>

Like I said these people are fascists in training. They want to stifle and stop all reason and argumentation and let the elite do whatever the hell they choose to do based upon, by hook or crook, (amendments and what not) association with a document written by rich white slave owners (who own behram`s mind, he is a slave to them for all intents and purposes) to consolidate their wealth. Nothing is beyond reason, not religion, not Allah and certainly not the US constitution. I pee on that document when it goes against basic human rights and reason, and for your information there is no monolith of US ``values``, people differ, debate and protest over them all the time, and you certianly are in no position, intellectual or moral to define what they are, regarless of the a$$ licking you do of the elite which do not define the values of the vast majority of Americans.

#639 zarqawi is getting worried because his new found shia friend mullah nasrullah is getting all the attention from zeemax!! :-)

HP writes <<< Second, the line of argument that people should not criticize the US if they live here is absolutely childish and basically tells me that person bringing someone’s residence up for discussion is out of legit arguments. The US is not some religious object neither is it a place to worship that people should always bow before it >>>

Very well stated. These people on here are walking talking logical fallacies. It is not about me but let me illustrate with an example. A few months back when I had started posting here for the first time and was talking about poverty in the US, these people didn`t know that I reside here so their argument was that he does not know anything about the US since he does not reside here, then when they ``discovered`` that I reside here they did a total flip and now their argument was, don`t reside here if you don`t like the system. Both arguments in which they have been totally inconsistent have nothing to do with the logic of argumentation. If they had logical validity we would be obliged to throw out the scholarhsip of all Americans that reside in America but do social research here that shows shortcomings in the system, and if we take their previous argument (of not having a clue if you don`t reside somewhere), we would be obliged to throw out all scholarship of Americans who write about other countries while not residing in them. That would effectively shut down all universities in the US for lack of material to study. I rest my case, regardless of damn fools like behram who will beat a dead dog till they are blue in the face.

zeemax............ When was the last time they met in a non-arab country? Just answer the first question after the italics.

the OIC, which oraganized the summit meetings, meets everywhere from malaysia to afghanistan, to iran, new york, mali etc. on a regular basis.... two major summit meetings were held in senegal and iran.......both outside the arab world. the official language of iran being farsi and senegal being french............i hope that answers your question........

i am quite aware of uae investing in pakistan. quite a bit has started after 9/11. you, being in the finance field should know that businessmen don`t invest for goodwill. they invest to make money. its not a favor. that is like saying pakistani bankers work in uae banks and hence they are doing a favor to uae. they aren`t. they are just trying to make money......

saudi arabia gave free oil to pakistan, in return for what pakistan did for it. there was one whole division of pakistani military protecting the kings. and there is pakistani labor there building their buildings.

all of this, should not allow anyone to have a racist attitude towards pakistanis. i can say with certainity saudis do.

as for palestinians, once again, whatever their reasons maybe, they are more pro-india than pro-pakistan. even though india is so close to israel now. do highglight when was the last time yasir arafat visited pakistan or saddam hussein gave a statement in favor or pakistan.

look at this as a humanitarian issue. not an ummah issue. ummah generally gives two hoots about pakistan. why weren`t they investing in pakistan prior to 9/11. obviously they were getting higher returns in new york..........

so the boss of Al-zarqawi is outraged at the israeli aggression against the shias???.... I wonder what mr. nasrullah has to say about this outburst of sympathy..... on the one hand are the bombers of the tomb of ali and on the other are the ones who still wail outside the walls of aqsa... i wonder whom mr. nasrullah considers the bigger aggressor? .... humm!! tough choice, no?

Whose fake nick is bulleya? Looks like a saboteur to me in disguise.

#636 by bulleya

...arab leaders meet many times a year for summits and conferences. they met in lahore over 30 years ago! what does that prove........

When was the last time they met in a non-arab country?

And you said they don`t give ... what ... two hoots?

Do you expect them to respect Pakistanis still after Pak military went and put down the Palestinians in Jordan? After Pakistan has been after them with a begging bowl since they got rich? Do you know that the UAE Arabs have the biggest share of FDI flowing into Pakistan right now? Do you know that the Saudis gave Pak free oil since after the nuke tests in 1998 till 2004?

No you don`t know all that. Please don`t make me change your opinion of you.

Just answer the first question after the italics.

Thanks.

zeemax/soysauce............i have travelled to saudi arabia and to uae. i have discussed issues with palestinians. i visit arab restaurants and social hangouts regularly. i talk with a lot of people who work in various capacities in various arab countries..........

soysauce`s assessment is probably correct. but just because someone does menial jobs, doesn`t mean they should be discriminated agaisnt. at the very least, those who are being discriminated against, shouldn`t feel good about it!

arab leaders meet many times a year for summits and conferences. they met in lahore over 30 years ago! what does that prove........

i oppose the actions of israel on a humanitarian basis. it is and has committed massive human rights violations. much of it is hidden to the usa audience, due to the very biased media, which is why some of the pakistani interactors from us on this site seem to be so ill-informed and are caught up in with us-or against us propoganda....

but rest assured, pakistan nor pakistanis have never been on top of any arab agenda......

#633 by soysauce

... the attitude that arabs are accused of are probably classist in nature rather than racist, what with a vast majority of subcontinentals working in rich arab countries as laborers...

You`ve explained this perfectly. This is the reason some rich arabs look down upon nationalities of menial workers. It is proven by the fact that they treat filipinos, sri lankans even worse whose women work as domestic servants.

hamidm #626 No need to berate all arabs. Just stick to the Arab bootlickers on chowk. These are the individuals who stink to high heaven (or hell, which is where they are no doubt headed in my simple muslim mind). I have in fact seen a palestinian put one of these bootlickers in their place in real life when the bootlicker in question started harping about ``Islamic Ummah``. They palestinian replied that he was in fact christian, his wife muslim, and the two of them were happy to be just palestinians.

#630
I have been to egypt and the bedouins i met there were very friendly and wanted to discuss bollywood. Unfortunately i know very little about movies but we found other things to talk about.
I suspect that the attitude that arabs are accused of are probably classist in nature rather than racist, what with a vast majority of subcontinentals working in rich arab countries as laborers. We`d behave the same way if the tables were turned.

Zeemax #631 I heard an even funnier thing: the sunni mullah Zawahiri lending support to the Shia Hezbullah. The two would be at each other`s throats if there was no israel.

And even more funny: a pakistani expat getting all worked up about the ``plight of the Noble White Arabs``, while blissfully unconcerned with misery of ``fellow`` Pakistanis inside Pakistan.

Zeemax - I am beginning to think that it is you, not Masadi, who is the greater genius on Chowk. It`s a tough call to make though. You are both so brilliant. :-)

Funniest thing I heard today. A Fox expert was dismissing today`s Zawahiri video as just trying to gain publicity from a major event, because they do not have the capability to actually do anything.

Will wonders never cease? I mean, I actually thought the war-on-terror was against Al-Keyda. Such a big war against an enemy without any capability?

Strange. Upside down world.

#628 by bulleya

Ok. Then why did all the Arab heads of state gather in Lahore for a summit if they didn`t give two hoots?

You and hamidm are speaking from adverse personal experiences, and generalising them to a whole people. I have different experiences. One of my cousins is married to a Palestinian, and moroccans/algerians have been my neighbors.

#622 arjun_m
Let`s see. Nazis were in power when they rounded up the jews. I guess the difference is apparent to you because coincidentally you happen to live in the country that votes in one set of homicidal maniacs and your loyalty is unexamined and automatic.
The firebombing of dresden or wholesale evisceration of hiroshima or nagasaki are comparable in scale and level of deprivation to the holocaust.
Just because you do one kind of killing from a distance - where you drop missiles with phosphor (as in lebanon) or sharp objects (as in gaza) from air on civilian areas and call it collateral damage, does not differentiate you from a man with a backpack walking into a cafe and blowing everyone up.
Osama calls 9-11 a collateral damage of the reaction to american foreign policy. If language is all it took to wipe away responsibility, al Quaeda is no longer guilty of anything.

hamid2`s remarks about arabs` treatment of pakistanis are quite accurate. i am speaking from personal experience to some extent. also arabs don`t really give two hoots about pakistan. many of them are amongst the most racist towards pakistanis. palestinians are more pro-india than pro-pakistan. they sent a delegation to india when india was about to attack pakistan a few years ago.....i have had discussions with palestinians on kashmir, and they have no clue about it. i have never heard yasir arafat or anyone speak about it...

thus i am also always surprised why pakistanis are so attached to arabs and to palestine from a religious point of view. shouldn`t it be a two-way street.

having said that, as human beings, one should still highlight the way the human rights of palestinians and lebanese have and are being violated, with or without hamas and hezbollah. but, in my opinion, not as an islamic ummah of some sorts, until they do the same when pakistan is in a similar situation.....

#626 by hamidm2

....their supercilious and often demeaning attitude towards pakis....

I haven`t been to Saudi Arabia so I don`t know, but you put forth Saudia as if the only Arabs in the world are Saudis. How come you make such a sweeping statement? What about the Arabs from all kinds of places in Dearborn. Have they treated you in a demeaning manner?

Re: # 621

zeemax,

....... no, no.... you are oversimplifying my answer ...... i don`t oppose the palestinian struggle as such if it does not call for the destruction of isreal and does not lead to an islamist state led by hamas ......... and i would have supported (with words only, like the rest of us) the lebanese resistance if it was not led by islamo-fascist hezbollah ........... in my view political islam is the biggest threat to mankind (and me personally) since nazism ...........

..... as for the arabs, i don`t like them not only because of what they did to poor grandpa gopinath, but also because of their supercilious and often demeaning attitude towards pakis and other lesser people ........ you must admit that, even after 9/11, pakis are treated much better in the us than in saudi arabia .......... i say, let the bas&$ds fight their own battles - we have enough problems of our own ...........

Re: #615 by HP on July 27, 2006 0:32am PT

Dear HP:

I totally disagree with the notion that

{Second, the line of argument that people should not criticize the US if they live here is absolutely childish and basically tells me that person bringing someone’s residence up for discussion is out of legit arguments.}

The mere fact of one being an immigrant shows that the person has rejected his place of birth or upbringing, and came to the new environment. This in and of itself should remove his ability of being authentic in his arguments.

Second, when a person is a believer of different values in a new system of values, it also impairs his vision and his authenticity.

{The US is not some religious object neither is it a place to worship that people should always bow before it. }

Granted, that the US is not some religious place to bow before it. But, when one takes a pledge of allegiance that is exactly what one does, and that is protect and defend the constitution of the US.

{When people criticize the US, they are criticizing the government or the administration and not the country itself. People have every right to criticize the US government no matter what their residence status is.}

Disagreed. The government of the US is by the people of the US, and rightful criticism can only be authentic by those who are by birth the citizen of the US, and not some displaced immigrant who happens to take his pledge of allegiance.

You as a person can criticize whatever and whosoever you want and that is your right as a human, but once you chose to accept the values of this new society, automatically you should remove yourself from criticism. If you can`t and if you want to remain authentic to yourself, then you must practice what you preach.

Respectfully submitted,

Dear masadi:

It is illogical for you to consider yourself intellectual, because you are not. People of faith can not depend upon intellect. You are trying to understand yourself and that is alright by me. By your assertion that some of us are anti-Islam, notwithstanding, makes it obvious that you have a ``holier than thou position`` and that makes you closed minded bigot.

You must resolve whether you practice a religious belief structure or you follow your intellect, and that you can`t follow both. Most of us, who call ourselves the enlightened ones, have given to the fact that the intellect is far superior to our beliefs, and are resigned to the fact that intellect is the one that is logical. By definition a believer becomes illogical.

You are not an intellectual, and no matter the amount of sloganeering that you publish will get you nowhere. Your commie values are actually not even accepted by your ilk in the fundoostan.

Respectfully submitted,

#605 by masadi on July 26, 2006 7:40pm PT

How does it feel knowing your tax $$ are being used to finance the ISraeli war? Look at the bright side tho..you only made 500$ in royalties for your screeds. Imagine the increased tax revenues if you had made more money from royalties.

So keep writing sucky books and deny the GOTUS the tax revenues on royalties...that will be your little contribution towards opposing the war.

#593 by soysauce on July 26, 2006 5:52pm PT


what`s the diff?
Neither side minds the killing of civilians. Dubya sheds crocodile tears for the civilians dead and the US DOD ships off precision-guided bombs on an expedited basis to israel.


The diff is obvious. It`s like the difference between the nazis killing a whole bunch of jews and some jewish slave laborers dying in the American bombing of a nazi factory. an idiot like you would say the two are the same.

#570 by hamidm2

..... at least kashmir is in the neighborhood and i have a lot of kashmiri friends ... i don`t feel any kinship with the arabs ... i just don`t like them...

So what you are saying is that you support Kashmir, but not Palestine because its nearer and Kashmiris are your friends; while you oppose Palestinian struggle because you don`t like Arabs.

Fine. Fair enough. But then your reasoning would be completely based on matters of personal likes/dislikes, and nothing to do with the merits/demerits of each, therefore you should keep your likes/dislikes to yourself as a matter of personal taste, and not propogate these through false reasoning which you have admitted has nothing to do with your own personal choices.

The entire premise of your argument stands demolished, but I think you have intellectual integrity to have admitted to the above.

#615 by HP

...It will be interesting to see the next moves by all the parties in the area.

Well, an indication of the next move is today`s headlines: ``An Israeli general said Wednesday that he expects the combat to continue ``for a few more weeks.``

What are they going to do in a `few more weeks`? More of the same or could it be something different?

#431 by zeemax

Please note that if, Shias/Sunnis THEMSELVES believed that to be true, then streets would have been full of blood upon MERE sucpicion.

Yaar Zee, while you have a valid point here, if there weren`t really any differences between the two sects, it couldn`t have been so easily exploited by the media or other vested interests.

Hope you`re having a good trip. If you`re interested, we may continue this conversation on the Lebanon board because its more active and we may get valuable input from others.

The bad part about the trip is that I`m not getting enough time online. Otherwise, its been a fantastic trip so far. I still have a couple more days before I`m home. I`ve been following this board since this morning and I think the wise thing to do is to carry our little discussion forward some other time, in order not to distract this board from the Israel-Hezbollah conflict.

#586 by HP

The Islamist parties use social work to recruit people. ....Regular political parties work with student unions and labor unions to recruit workers....It is a matter of what method you use to bring people into the political fold...

This is probably correct. However all said and done, at the end of the day, these recruiters through social work end up doing a hell of a lot of good, rather than the recruiters through student unions and labor unions, who are content with sloganeering in the street or sit-ins on some factory gates ... or gherao/jalao.

Example is earthquake relief.

#588 by GT

...Perhaps, this is why my (irrational) sympathy lies with the Hez .... and strangely it is inspite of my being opposed to their ideology. Talk about grey areas!...

This is exactly what I meant through my question that how does one support a legitimate cause without supporting the fighters for that cause who happen to be Islamist `Terrorists`?

Also, some people (HP?) have floated the idea that Islamists can`t really manage after they have won, and that is why they should not be supported. To this I ask the question that is it fair to say we should let the Islamists fight, and kill, and be killed for OUR shared causes, and if/when they win, they should stand aside and let the liberals manage, because they all have degrees in Political Science and Public Administration.

That`s really a weird notion.

#593 by soysauce

...US DOD ships off precision-guided bombs on an expedited basis to israel....

Yes. That is why the UN observer compound was demolished with pinpoint accuracy `regrettably` by mistake with a non-precision guided bomb, because the precision shipment had not yet arrived.

The SOBs did it on purpose for two reasons. One, to get rid of observers so they can`t observe the war crimes perpetrated and planned further; and two, to scare away imposition by UN of any peace-keeping forces being talked about for a cease-fire, because that will mean their going back to barracks without defeating Hazb, and that would mean they lost the war.

#582 by mohar11

....let the fools kill and die as they please....

Correct for bystanders. But the very least one can do, is not to laugh and jeer at the civilians while they are being massacred and hounded to their deaths, as some of our interactors are doing.

#576 by bulleya

...after reading the comments here, i think some people just don`t like the fact that hezbollah has the word, ``ollah`` in its name. that is why they are supporting the bombing of lebanon. and the fact that nasrullah has a beard and wears that black round hat.

Interesting observation. I agree. If they were to do that, they`ll probably become freedom fighters, or rebels, or guerrilas ... instead of terrorists. (example: Maoist guerillas are not terrorists).

That is why I say it is not `war on terror`, it is `war on muslims`; regardless of whether religion has anything to do with their causes or not.

First, I think this is too good a topic to be wasted by squabbling over inane issues.

Second, the line of argument that people should not criticize the US if they live here is absolutely childish and basically tells me that person bringing someone’s residence up for discussion is out of legit arguments. The US is not some religious object neither is it a place to worship that people should always bow before it. When people criticize the US, they are criticizing the government or the administration and not the country itself. People have every right to criticize the US government no matter what their residence status is. In fact, after Al Gore invented the net, everyone, regardless of their citizenship status, is fully empowered to criticize any government anywhere in the world. It would be irrational to assume that I cannot criticize India or Pakistan because I am not a citizen of both countries.

#594 by GT
GT
“Thus, patience is required. It is here that I disagree with the pseudo liberal cabal in the US. They want to get things right their way and immediately..”

You are absolutely right but there is no liberal cabal in the US that wants to set things right immediately. We have a conservative government in the US that after being cornered in Iraq is looking to find one excuse after another to justify its misadventure in the ME.

That brings to an interesting situation that perhaps would interest some posters here.

The US is bogged down in Iraq and now cannot extract itself as any unilateral withdrawal would perhaps allow the Islamist to claim victory against the West. (Even though I doubt that the resistance in Iraq is purely Islamist). The US is looking for ways to soften the impact its withdrawal from Iraq would have on the streets in the ME.

The US media has already revived Izzat Hossain, a former vice president of Iraq to claim that the resistance in Iraq is: 1) led by the Baathist and 2) the former Iraqi army is doing all the fighting. The US Amb in Iraq has also mentioned that the Iraqi nationalists are leading the resistance. This is contrary to what we were hearing just a couple of months ago when all fighters were either Zarqavi’s followers or were foreign fighters. This shift, though at this time appears to be just a trial balloon, shows that the US realizes its increasingly perilous position in Iraq. The fear that any US withdrawal from Iraq would be an Islamist victory is giving headache and rightly so to the US planners.

The current Israel response and since it appears to have bogged down in Lebanon proves that the US and its allies are making serious errors of judgment in their war against the non state actors. If Israel fails after the US failure in Iraq, the Islamist would have another victory to boot and that does not augur well for the liberals in many countries. The misstep by Israel with the definite US approval has placed the whole war on terrorism in jeopardy.

About the war itself; The Israel response in Lebanon is disproportionate to what the Hezbollah did. It is also indiscriminate as the Israeli targets in Lebanon are not even remotely connected with Hezbollah. Its strafing and bombing of the Christian neighborhoods and the civilian structure clearly shows the desperation of the Israel government to close this war as soon as possible but so far this effort is failing. If Israel finally ends up accepting a cease-fire that ends in exchange of prisoners and leaves Hezbollah in place then no one can stop the Islamist from claiming victory in Lebanon too.

This does appear to be a catch 22 situation, where Israel cannot extract itself with dignity nor can it continue to fight this war indefinitely as the civilian loss of life would continue to mount thus raising the international opinion against the Israeli disproportionate and indiscriminate response in Lebanon.

It will be interesting to see the next moves by all the parties in the area.

behram writes <<< Are you a man or a women? Maybe your estrogen level is getting too high. Your intellectual level is so rudimentary and stupid that sometimes I wonder about you? >>>

Keep wondering and pushing your Anti-Islam ``fundamentalism`` by imagining conditions and scenarios that do not exist, like the Iraqi WMDs. Regarding my intellectual level, I do not consider your intellectual level to be of a calibre to judge it. What I write stands on its own merits and those merits are not sloganeering and nonsense analogies (like comparing pregnancy to hate) like your posts.

Re: # 611 by masadi on July 26, 2006 8:33pm PT

Dear masadi:

{What else can we expect from your posts except sloganeering?}

Screw sloganeering. Are you a believer or not? That is the question. If you are then you can not be an intellectual. Why do you always adumbrate the issue at hand?

{ Just because Musharraf is a Sunni Muslims means that there is majority rule in Pakistan.}

The majority of Pakistani Power Elite are sunnis, are they not? What brand is another variable. It is common in intellectual circles (unlike your fundoostan`s philosophy) that majorities have a right to rule, whereas minorities have a right to be heard.

Which part of this sentence is so difficult?

Why are the muslims in the west complaining then? Being a minority in the west they perceive that they are not being heard. It is another matter that they promote politically nonsensical ideas from their history and culture.

{ You need to patent your new definition of ``democracy`` before somebody else steals it. People on here can tell by our posts, who has better ability to use their ``intellect``. Sloganeering does not prove anything.}

Your muslim fundoos are master of sloganeering. As for the intellect, it has long been dead in the deserts of bedounistan.

Respectfully submitted,

Re: # 608 by masadi on July 26, 2006 7:49pm PT

Dear masadi:

And that is what JI is, a Pakistani hate group.

{There is distinct difference between someone who hates (like hamidm does) but has little on no power to use it to cause harm and those who hate and can use it to destroy entire countries. BIG difference.}

Again you are comparing hate. It is like suggesting being a little pregnant is OK.

You are just one of the wonders of the universe thinking others on this board do not understand your flip flops. To dilute the argument of JI and their hate ideology you compared it with a bigger hate and then you brought ak-47 into the argument.

Are you a man or a women? Maybe your estrogen level is getting too high. Your intellectual level is so rudimentary and stupid that sometimes I wonder about you?

Respectfully submitted,

behram writes <<< But, masadi, you are not a rational human being. You can never be a rational human being. Rational beings by definition have to use their intellect which a believer, like yourself, can not >>>

What else can we expect from your posts except sloganeering? Just because Musharraf is a Sunni Muslims means that there is majority rule in Pakistan. You need to patent your new definition of ``democracy`` before somebody else steals it. People on here can tell by our posts, who has better ability to use their ``intellect``. Sloganeering does not prove anything.

Re: # 607 by masadi on July 26, 2006 7:46pm PT

Dear masadi:

How can a believer like you ever be rational?

{Actually the ruling minority (minority of a minority) has all the say while the aspirations of the majorities have been totally wiped out }

Your word-smithy not withstanding, Pervez Musharaff is still a sunni muslim and he is part of the majority.

{Be honest in what you are saying, by ``fundoo attitude`` you mean religious tendencies among the Muslims, you don`t mean the ``fundoo attitudes`` of the fascists who are imposing US dictatorship around the world. And you and hamid and his ilk want to control all Muslims based on a few bogeymen and their gangster groups. You are a damn hypocrite. }

I mean the fanaticism of some muslims against everything under the sun. Fundoos don`t like music and demand me (a non-muslim) to go for prayers in their mosque.

Why do the fundoos dare promote their faith on a bona fide non-muslim (such as myself) in the US? And on top of that they even try to convince me why my pajama should be six inches above my ankle. And then they incessantly continue with jazaak-ullah, and all the ullah`s that they can muster. Why?

{Great ideas for fascists in training, label anyone whose ideas you don`t like as ``Islamist`` and just by that label (and not any rational argument) you can dismiss their ideas by showing a ``red card`` and ignore the ``destructive thoughts`` that are implemented on a global scale by those the ``Islamists`` (your bogeymen) cannot even dream to equal, except in their rants.}

But, masadi, you are not a rational human being. You can never be a rational human being. Rational beings by definition have to use their intellect which a believer, like yourself, can not. I thought we had already covered this on a different board.

Respectfully submitted,

More interesting info:

- orthodox judaism is defined by a few characteristics that are to be followed. one of these is to follow the thirteen principles laid out by a man named Musa - bin - Maimoon. he was a jewish rabbi, born in cordoba in the time of muslim rule in spain. when the govt. changed there, he was forced to leave and migrated to another muslim country/area: morroco.

from their he moved to egypt and became the grand vizer and possibly the doctor to salauddin ayyubi! tariq ali has musa -bin -maimoon as one of his main characters in his book, ``the book of saladin.``

so the belief system of israel has a major portion laid out by a jewish man who was born and bred and was a part of a muslim society and actually was an employee of saladin - a man whom many muslims cite to reference the re-conquest of palestine........

behram in # 606 <<< Hate is still hate, and I do not compare or evaluate hate >>>

There is distinct difference between someone who hates (like hamidm does) but has little on no power to use it to cause harm and those who hate and can use it to destroy entire countries. BIG difference.

behram writes in #603 <<< In the Islamic world minorities` views and values have been completely wiped out. >>>

Actually the ruling minority (minority of a minority) has all the say while the aspirations of the majorities have been totally wiped out

behram writes <<< Further, fundoos attitude is want needs to be managed in the world. In this regard, I am in total agreement with Hamid and his rants against the fundoos attitudes. >>>

Be honest in what you are saying, by ``fundoo attitude`` you mean religious tendencies among the Muslims, you don`t mean the ``fundoo attitudes`` of the fascists who are imposing US dictatorship around the world. And you and hamid and his ilk want to control all Muslims based on a few bogeymen and their gangster groups. You are a damn hypocrite.

behram writes <<< For this to happen we must marginalize social values of islamist`s amongst us. Those who constantly bad mouth the west and remain tied to the western society must be shown a red card. Their destructive thoughts are not acceptable in today`s world >>>

Great ideas for fascists in training, label anyone whose ideas you don`t like as ``Islamist`` and just by that label (and not any rational argument) you can dismiss their ideas by showing a ``red card`` and ignore the ``destructive thoughts`` that are implemented on a global scale by those the ``Islamists`` (your bogeymen) cannot even dream to equal, except in their rants.

Respectfully submitted!

Dear Masadi:

In Pakistan, all those who have promoted hate are evil. JI is the premier organization that has promoted hate ever since Pakistan`s inception, and that is a fact. Then, of course we have a long list of political parties who have worked towards promoting hate. We all know these days the premier party of hate mongers is the MQM, of course.

So purveyors of hate are all over Pakistan. Some use ak-47, some use knives, and some use hateful words. Hate is still hate, and I do not compare or evaluate hate, maybe you do.

Respectfully submitted,

UN says Israel warned many times before fatal attack
Wed Jul 26, 2006 5:21pm ET

UNITED NATIONS (Reuters) - The United Nations said on Wednesday it asked Israel a dozen times to stop bombing near a U.N. post in Lebanon in the hours before an Israeli air attack destroyed the position killing four peacekeepers.

U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan initially referred to Tuesday`s deadly Israeli strike as the ``apparently deliberate targeting`` of the Khiam U.N. observer post.

the more i read about israeil demographics, the more interesting it gets. following is info from wikipedia, regarding israel proper (not counting west bank and gaza):

- arabic is an official language of israel Hebrew is the only other official Israeli language

- 20% of the population of israel is what is called arab-israelis, i.e. non-jewish arabs who are citizens of israel. 15% in proper israel. and 5% in east jerusalem, which was annexed by israel in 1980. most of them are desecendants of the 150,000 arabs who remained in israel afterthe 48 war

- there are 1.3 million legal muslim citizens in israel (if east jerusalem is counted). hence the % of muslims in israel is higher than the % of muslims in india

- 180,000 of these arab-israeli citizens are christian

- there are 170,000 palestinians illegally living in israel

- there are 200,000 palestinians who have migrated to israel from west bank and gaza, due to marriage and are citizens of israel (now there is a law agains that)

- muslim israelis have nearly twice the birth rate as jewish israelis. hence 25% of the children now being born in israel are muslims 42% of the israeli muslims are under the age of 15, while only 26% of the jewish israelis are under 15

- by 2020, the population of muslims in israel will rise to 25% of the total israeli population

- 12 out of the 120 seats in the Knesset are held by Arab-Israelis

- there is an Arab-Israeli who sits on the Supreme Court bench

- Miss Israel in 2005 was an Arab-Israeli

- The coach of the Palestinian national soccer team is an Arab-Israeli!

People think Indians and Pakistanis have cultural similarities yet political problems. Apparently, they are nothing compared to Israel and Palestine......And I haven`t even touched upon the Jewish-Arab population of Israel, which I think now number the largest the jewish population in israel. not sure, but they may have passed russian jews in israel in number..........

i think israel has more problems on its hands than people realize. it seems to be turning back into where it started from in 47/48, i.e. an area with an equal mixture of muslims and jews..........if one counts the occupied territories as part of israel, it already is that........

Re: # 594 by GT on July 26, 2006 6:24pm PT

Dear GT:

Majority has a right to rule but minorities must be heard, and that is what is usually missing in the muslim world. In the Islamic world minorities` views and values have been completely wiped out.

If these same majorities could only learn how the minorities behave amongst their ranks in the Islamic world, then they could behave totally differently in the west. Their stupid notion that they do not accept geographical boundaries, blah, blah, blah, etc (read masadi`s thoughts) should be challenged and marginalized. Further, fundoos attitude is want needs to be managed in the world. In this regard, I am in total agreement with Hamid and his rants against the fundoos attitudes.

For this to happen we must marginalize social values of islamist`s amongst us. Those who constantly bad mouth the west and remain tied to the western society must be shown a red card. Their destructive thoughts are not acceptable in today`s world.

Respectfully submitted,

Re: # 543

If Israelis don`t want any dead civilians, push jews out of Arab lands...

#600 behram writes <<< How can you compare evils? >>>

Just as you would compare the destructive ability of an ak-47 with a nuclear weapon.

Re: # 595 by masadi on July 26, 2006 6:31pm PT

Dear Masadi:

It is obvious that you are on a mission. How can you compare evils?

If you accept the notion that {The Jamaat`s leadership might be thugs as you say but their thuggery is small potatoes compared to the thuggery that the Neo-Colonials, }

Being a Zoroastrain, maybe my opinion does not count, but from a Pakistani`s perspective JI and the society that they aspire is evil, and most muslims would say that.

Respectfully submitted,

Mujahid Margolis
What a great analysis.

HP <<< Now I am not going to repeat the cliché of grey areas here but things are not as one two three as they may appear to many distant observers >>>

In the present time there has come about a great uniformity in global affairs, as the world has become smaller and domination has concentrated. In that context, it has become much more predictible. The paragon of capitalism is an inhumane mess both inside and outside, defaulting back to what has produced major global problems isn`t advisible and the hamidm`s and tahmed`s on here are suggesting that while not having a clue on how to formulate their arguments in a rational manner. You, on the other hand are much smarter than they are, that is why I am suggesting that you not let your prejudice against Islam or religion, guide your reasoning. We can use our reason and sense and uniqueness to come to solutions we don`t have to default to either the fascism of the West or groups like Jamaat.