Escalation of Hostilities in Middle East

#629 by soysauce

[Let`s see. Nazis were in power when they rounded up the jews. I guess the difference is apparent to you because coincidentally you happen to live in the country that votes in one set of homicidal maniacs and your loyalty is unexamined and automatic.
The firebombing of dresden or wholesale evisceration of hiroshima or nagasaki are comparable in scale and level of deprivation to the holocaust.
Just because you do one kind of killing from a distance - where you drop missiles with phosphor (as in lebanon) or sharp objects (as in gaza) from air on civilian areas and call it collateral damage, does not differentiate you from a man with a backpack walking into a cafe and blowing everyone up.
Osama calls 9-11 a collateral damage of the reaction to american foreign policy.]


Because you have decided, like Socrates, to examine your life, let me help you examine this particular thought process:


If you asked IDF the question - ``There is a town square full of ONLY Lebanese women and children, but absolutely no Hezbollah operatives, would you want to go bomb them?``, the answer would be ``No``. (Although Islamists keep saying that Israelis want to intentionally kill civilians).

But if you asked terrorists - ``There is a town square full of ONLY Israeli women and children, but absolutely no Israeli army personnel, would you want to go bomb them?``, the answer would be ``You bet!``.

That is the crucial difference.

In the case of Israel, it could choose to turn the town of Bint-Jabil, block by block, into a sandbox, regradless of casualties, and THEN send their army in. But they didn`t. They have sacrificed considerable number of soldier`s lives to instead go in and root out the scum. They have dropped leaflets, and allowed the civilians who wanted to leave, leave. Now a small minority of the civilians remain - they are hardcore HEZ supporters. I hope at theis point IDF does start turning the town into a sandbox.





[If language is all it took to wipe away responsibility, al Quaeda is no longer guilty of anything.]

By your earlier logic, you are saying that Al Quaeda is not guilty of anything, or at the most as guilty as anybody else, like the US or Britain. I hope FBI finds out where you live and examine your life in detail.

By the way, are you from Tamil Nadu? (just curious)

#648 by masadi

....the surplus they extract from my work is worth atleast 50 times...

Masadi, if you`re talking about the theory of `surplus value`, it may be advisable to include the wikipedia link so ppl can understand what you`re talking about.

Cheers!

#640 by bulleya

1)... saudi arabia gave free oil to pakistan, in return for what pakistan did for it. there was one whole division of pakistani military protecting the kings. and there is pakistani labor there building their buildings.

So what you`re saying is Saudis gave Pakistan oil for free between 1998-2004 i.e. 6 years, worth $ billions, in return for some khakis ostensibly protecting the kings. Isn`t it that the US bases there are protecting the kings? But never mind. Let`s move to the next point. Pakistani labor there building their buildings. But I thought they were being paid for their labor seperately, or do you mean they were being paid in oil?

2)...why weren`t they investing in pakistan prior to 9/11....

The banking sector investments in Pakistan by Arabs were made as soon as the sector opened up in the 90s such as Bank Alfalah, Faysal Bank, Oman Bank, Al-Baraka group, Al-Meezan group, Pak-Libya, Pak-Kuwait, Pak-Saudi investment companies. In Telecoms, Egypt`s Orascom (Mobilink) arrived in mid-90s as the very first GSM network. In consumer retailing/leisure, the Cupola group of Dubai also opened in 90s which brought in shopping malls and KFC/franchised restaurants etc. In the social sector, Sheikh Zayed Hospital in Lahore was built in the 90s or perhaps before that, plus a multitude of other UAE/Saudi financed schools, colleges and universities including premier institutes such as SZABIST and GIK Institute of Science & Tech.

If you go further back, when the crippling Pressler amendments came into force, the Abu Dhabi Sheikhs had funded Pakistan in a critical time by lending it $350 million through BCCI against the sale of its future rice crop. Saudia and Libya had placed deposits with Pakistani central bank of about $ 500 million combined in the same period (as did China but that`s not relevant here). Then the unconditional Saudi Oil facility after the nuke tests plus more fiscal and balance of payments support. All this was at a time when Pakistan was sanctioned to the hilt, and the prospect of their recovering their money was at best far from assured. These people have bailed-out Pakistan from sovereign default on a number of occasions when noone else was around and IMF was barred from lending to Pak.

A significant point is to see that the investments before 9/11 were all Long-Term. After 9/11 though, some of the short-term investments in quick turnaround businesses has indeed improved, but nothing Long-Term. Reason is that some of the Arab liquidity which had been parked in USA in equities etc has been diverted to projects in Pak such as real-estate development for re-sale which is in fact the largest component of Arab investments as of today.

The point of above paras is that Arab investments in Pak before 9/11 were much more in size and duration and consequently of more benefit to the country, than the hot money flowing in after 9/11.

The fact of the matter is, and it has been proven time and again, that the only friends-in-need Pak has are the Arabs, and China.

Rgds.

Dear Masadi:

You have not been able to rationalize your life because you can not. Being a person of belief you can not respect intellect. As such don`t you ever fool yourself that you are a rational person, because you are not. You spurious and adumberated values are rather obvious.

Besides, the muslim culture that I have grown up in and the one that I like very much has this one of the best qualities. Never trust the intellect, always have faith. A person of faith can never depend on their intellect. Now, you seem to disagree; hence, your flowery rhetoric. You are blowing air through your nostrils like a bull who has seen red. Please stop grunting oink, oink.

Some of my muslim friends would say ``never use brains too much``. Did you know that a fundoos brains are very expensive, since it has never been used?

Masadi, maybe you should listen to your social mores. Over excessive use of your intellect is detrimental to the foundation of your soul. You must never consider yourself an intellectual. On the contrary, you should always consider yourself as a huffing and puffing emotional gorilla, who has all the emotions in the world but no knowledge. Remember knowledge resides in the intellect, which you should have none. Or is it that since you are not a believer of your deen you have no imaan. Would you know where your imaan resides?

Respectfully submitted,

Re: # 653

I dont usually agree with masadi...... but baita behram, you do need some potty training.

Behram sahib,

(You are an emotional pig)

You could have used the name of some other animal to describe Maulana Masadi (RA), the choice of the word pig was highly provocative and unfortunate.

Regards

comrade masadi...The F-16s will be used against the baloch and the tribals from the NWFP.

Here`s a snippet from the house hearing on the sale of the F-16s to Pakiland...

ROHRABACHER: Especially in their own country. The F-16 would be better than, perhaps, an airplane that costs half as much and had the ability, perhaps, not to fly as far, but would cost half as much and deliver the package.

HILLEN: That was a question for the Pakistan and the modernization of air forces.

I would note, Mr. Rohrabacher, that in our structure of the sale, I referred to before a set of documents never before shared in an arms notification process, between the executive branch and Congress, that I made the decision to share.

And it enumerated the technologies were not, that would usually go with an F-16, that are not part of this deal. And they include ones that would allow the F-16 to be used in offensive ways to penetrate airspace of another country that was highly defended. So, I think that`s worth noting.

So the paki F-16s will come without systems required to penetrate AD systems of another country...but the baloch and the tribals have no AD system...so their goose is cooked(with your tax $$ I might add).

behram writes <<< You are a namak haram, because you have not spoken a single good word about this country ever since you have joined this chowk >>>

Nonsense, this country is not defined by the elite that rape it and the rest of the world, it is defined by its people whose oppression I have been talking against time and again, to be opposed by namak harams like you as you support the political elite who have relegated them to a life of miserable servitude.

Since all you can come up with are Ad Hominems that do not deal with any issues in any rational manner, I see no point in carrying on this BS conversation, didn`t you read what I wrote, ``I rest my case``. Now if you have something that deals with issues and facts and not with me, I`ll be willing to consider it. I might be the worst AH on earth, that still does not make my arguments invalid~ comprendey? If not, I suggest you get some education in logic and argumentation.

---

For the rest consider this real namak-haram-i of the US elite:

11th-hour try to block US F-16 sale to Pakistan
Thu Jul 27, 2006 5:43pm ET

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A handful of U.S. lawmakers have launched an 11th-hour attempt to block the sale of U.S.-made F-16 fighter aircraft to Pakistan but have garnered little immediate support.....Barring a resolution of disapproval in both houses of Congress by this weekend, Bush will have the authority to go ahead with the supply to Pakistan of up to 36 Lockheed Martin Corp. F-16C/D models and related gear worth up to $5.1 billion if all options are exercised....

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The point is that the unit cost of a third rate F-16, to Pakistan is coming out to be over $130 million when they cost around $25 million in the US, many of them, in the case of war will be destroyed by the IAF on the ground, and yet the Pakistanis are very happy to enrich the military industrialists of the US with enormous profits, then beg the US for a few million in AID out of the billions they`ve given them and take dictations, while conquering its own people at the dictates of the Americans, while the masses have no healthcare, education or even proper nutrition and the tahmeds and hamids on here are not at all bothered by any of this.

behram writes <<< you must claim at least some love for this country that you earn your livelihood from. How can you be a namak haram? >>>

The namak haram-i is done by this nation and those that employ me, the surplus they extract from my work is worth atleast 50 times what they pay me. What they extract from the rest of the world through unjust trade, and gaining contracts from their lackeys is also manifest namak haram-i.

Re: # 648 by masadi on July 27, 2006 6:03pm PT

Dear masadi:

So you consider yourself as a namak haram, eh.

{The namak haram-i is done by this nation and those that employ me, the surplus they extract from my work is worth atleast 50 times what they pay me. What they extract from the rest of the world through unjust trade, and gaining contracts from their lackeys is also manifest namak haram-i.}

You are a namak haram, because you have not spoken a single good word about this country ever since you have joined this chowk. You pee in the same katora where you eat food. Is that how you were raised? You have no shame.

You are an emotional pig, always grunting and never making any sense to your intellect. Maybe you have no intellect. Only raw emotions, which are justified only for you because you are a believer. Nothing wrong in being an emotional buffoon as you continue to be.

Do you finally acknowledge that JI has been a religious organization that wants to instill its values on Pakistan? And that you, being a man of faith, can never be an intellectual.

Respectfully submitted,

Look who weCaptured!

By Arik Diamant, Arab News

It`s the wee hours of the morning, still dark outside. A guerrilla force comes out of nowhere to kidnap a soldier. After hours of careful movement, the force reaches its target, and the ambush is on! In seconds, the soldier finds himself looking down the barrel of a rifle.

A smash in the face with the butt of the gun and the soldier falls to the ground, bleeding. The kidnappers pick him up, quickly tie his hands and blindfold him, and disappear into the night.

This might be the end of the kidnapping, but the nightmare has just begun. The soldier`s mother collapses, his father prays. His commanding officers promise to do everything they can to get him back, his comrades swear revenge. An entire nation is up in arms, writhing in pain and worry.

Nobody knows how the soldier is: Is he hurt? Do his captors give him even a minimum of human decency, or are they torturing him to death by trampling his honor? The worst sort of suffering is not knowing. Will he come home? And if so, when? And in what condition? Can anyone remain apathetic in the light of such drama?

This description, you`ll be surprised to know, has nothing to do with the capture of Gilad Shalit (the Israeli soldier taken prisoner in Gaza). It is the story of an arrest I carried out as an IDF soldier, in the Nablus casbah, about 10 years ago. The ``soldier`` was a 17-year-old boy, and we kidnapped him because he knew ``someone`` who had done ``something.``

We brought him tied up, with a burlap sac over his head, to a Shin Bet interrogation center known as ``Scream Hill`` (at the time we thought it was funny). There, the prisoner was beaten, violently shaken and sleep deprived for weeks or months. Who knows.

No one wrote about it in the paper. European diplomats were not called to help him. After all, there was nothing out of the ordinary about the kidnapping of this Palestinian kid. Over the 40 years of occupation we have kidnapped thousands of people, exactly like Gilad Shalit was captured: Threatened by a gun, beaten mercilessly, with no judge or jury, or witnesses, and without providing the family with any information about the captive.

When the Palestinians do this, we call it ``terror.`` When we do it, we work overtime to whitewash the atrocity.

Some people will say: The IDF doesn`t ``just`` kidnap. These people are ``suspects.`` There is no more perverse lie than this. In all the years I served, I reached one simple conclusion: What makes a ``suspect``? Who, exactly suspects him, and of what?

Who has the right to sentence a 17-year-old to kidnapping, torture and possible death? A 26-year-old Shin Bet interrogator? A 46-year-old one? Do these people have any higher education, apart from the ability to interrogate? What are his considerations? If all these ``suspects`` are so guilty, why not bring them to trial?

Anyone who believes that despite the lack of transparency, the IDF and Shin Bet do their best to minimize violations of human rights is na�ve, if not brainwashed. One need only read the testimonies of soldiers who have carried out administrative detentions to be convinced of the depth of the immorality of our actions in the occupied Palestinian territories.

To this very day, there are hundreds of prisoners rotting in Shin Bet prisons and dungeons, people who have never been - and never will be - tried. And Israelis are silently resolved to this phenomenon.

The day Gilad Shalit was captured I rode in a taxi. The driver told me we must go into Gaza, start shooting people one by one, until someone breaks and returns the hostage. It isn`t clear that such an operation would bring Gilad back alive.

Instead of getting dragged into terrorist responses, as Palestinian society has done, we should release some of the soldiers and civilians we have kidnapped. This is appropriate, right, and could bring about an air of reconciliation in the territories.

Hell, if this is what will bring Gilad home safe and sound, we have a responsibility to him to do it.

- Arik Diamant is an IDF (Israeli Defense Forces) reservist and the head of the Courage to Refuse organization.

masadi

//They want to stifle and stop all reason and argumentation//

coming from a muslim its simply laughable. salman rushdie and taslima nasrin are two of the many victims of this ideology of peace...... what exactly does masadi think about the death penalty for apostates of islam? stifling? no?

#643 by masadi on July 27, 2006 1:00pm PT


They want to stifle and stop all reason and argumentation


Has someone knocked down your door and taken away your computer? No...you`re still posting and arguing right?

so stfu about being a victim..cause you`re not...

behram writes to HP <<< You as a person can criticize whatever and whosoever you want and that is your right as a human, but once you chose to accept the values of this new society, automatically you should remove yourself from criticism. >>>

Like I said these people are fascists in training. They want to stifle and stop all reason and argumentation and let the elite do whatever the hell they choose to do based upon, by hook or crook, (amendments and what not) association with a document written by rich white slave owners (who own behram`s mind, he is a slave to them for all intents and purposes) to consolidate their wealth. Nothing is beyond reason, not religion, not Allah and certainly not the US constitution. I pee on that document when it goes against basic human rights and reason, and for your information there is no monolith of US ``values``, people differ, debate and protest over them all the time, and you certianly are in no position, intellectual or moral to define what they are, regarless of the a$$ licking you do of the elite which do not define the values of the vast majority of Americans.

Re: # 643 by Masadi on July 27, 2006 1:00pm PT

Dear Masadi:

{They want to stifle and stop all reason and argumentation}

Again, Masadi, you cannot have argument because you are a believer. Your religion and its dogma should answer all your questions. You have no intellect except your firm believe of your scripture.

Is that not true? Would you then agree that JI is a terror organization that spreads hatred amongst innocent Pakistanis? Do you love Pakistan more than your religion Islam?

First, you have to learn being authentic.

{Nothing is beyond reason, not religion, not Allah and certainly not the US constitution.}

Then be bold and profess that nationalism is far greater than your religious belief.

{I pee on that document when it goes against basic human rights and reason,}

But, Masadi, your peeing notwithstanding, you must claim at least some love for this country that you earn your livelihood from. How can you be a namak haram? But, due to your continuous disease of hatred against the non-muslim west you are unable to consider this as namak harami.

Is that true? How shameful can you be with your assertion that you believe in Allah and at the same time you can provide intellectual argument.

Wow! The location of your intellect is close to your pubic hair.

Respectfully submitted,

#639 zarqawi is getting worried because his new found shia friend mullah nasrullah is getting all the attention from zeemax!! :-)