Escalation of Hostilities in Middle East

HP writes <<< Second, the line of argument that people should not criticize the US if they live here is absolutely childish and basically tells me that person bringing someone’s residence up for discussion is out of legit arguments. The US is not some religious object neither is it a place to worship that people should always bow before it >>>

Very well stated. These people on here are walking talking logical fallacies. It is not about me but let me illustrate with an example. A few months back when I had started posting here for the first time and was talking about poverty in the US, these people didn`t know that I reside here so their argument was that he does not know anything about the US since he does not reside here, then when they ``discovered`` that I reside here they did a total flip and now their argument was, don`t reside here if you don`t like the system. Both arguments in which they have been totally inconsistent have nothing to do with the logic of argumentation. If they had logical validity we would be obliged to throw out the scholarhsip of all Americans that reside in America but do social research here that shows shortcomings in the system, and if we take their previous argument (of not having a clue if you don`t reside somewhere), we would be obliged to throw out all scholarship of Americans who write about other countries while not residing in them. That would effectively shut down all universities in the US for lack of material to study. I rest my case, regardless of damn fools like behram who will beat a dead dog till they are blue in the face.

zeemax............ When was the last time they met in a non-arab country? Just answer the first question after the italics.

the OIC, which oraganized the summit meetings, meets everywhere from malaysia to afghanistan, to iran, new york, mali etc. on a regular basis.... two major summit meetings were held in senegal and iran.......both outside the arab world. the official language of iran being farsi and senegal being french............i hope that answers your question........

i am quite aware of uae investing in pakistan. quite a bit has started after 9/11. you, being in the finance field should know that businessmen don`t invest for goodwill. they invest to make money. its not a favor. that is like saying pakistani bankers work in uae banks and hence they are doing a favor to uae. they aren`t. they are just trying to make money......

saudi arabia gave free oil to pakistan, in return for what pakistan did for it. there was one whole division of pakistani military protecting the kings. and there is pakistani labor there building their buildings.

all of this, should not allow anyone to have a racist attitude towards pakistanis. i can say with certainity saudis do.

as for palestinians, once again, whatever their reasons maybe, they are more pro-india than pro-pakistan. even though india is so close to israel now. do highglight when was the last time yasir arafat visited pakistan or saddam hussein gave a statement in favor or pakistan.

look at this as a humanitarian issue. not an ummah issue. ummah generally gives two hoots about pakistan. why weren`t they investing in pakistan prior to 9/11. obviously they were getting higher returns in new york..........

so the boss of Al-zarqawi is outraged at the israeli aggression against the shias???.... I wonder what mr. nasrullah has to say about this outburst of sympathy..... on the one hand are the bombers of the tomb of ali and on the other are the ones who still wail outside the walls of aqsa... i wonder whom mr. nasrullah considers the bigger aggressor? .... humm!! tough choice, no?

Whose fake nick is bulleya? Looks like a saboteur to me in disguise.

#636 by bulleya

...arab leaders meet many times a year for summits and conferences. they met in lahore over 30 years ago! what does that prove........

When was the last time they met in a non-arab country?

And you said they don`t give ... what ... two hoots?

Do you expect them to respect Pakistanis still after Pak military went and put down the Palestinians in Jordan? After Pakistan has been after them with a begging bowl since they got rich? Do you know that the UAE Arabs have the biggest share of FDI flowing into Pakistan right now? Do you know that the Saudis gave Pak free oil since after the nuke tests in 1998 till 2004?

No you don`t know all that. Please don`t make me change your opinion of you.

Just answer the first question after the italics.

Thanks.

zeemax/soysauce............i have travelled to saudi arabia and to uae. i have discussed issues with palestinians. i visit arab restaurants and social hangouts regularly. i talk with a lot of people who work in various capacities in various arab countries..........

soysauce`s assessment is probably correct. but just because someone does menial jobs, doesn`t mean they should be discriminated agaisnt. at the very least, those who are being discriminated against, shouldn`t feel good about it!

arab leaders meet many times a year for summits and conferences. they met in lahore over 30 years ago! what does that prove........

i oppose the actions of israel on a humanitarian basis. it is and has committed massive human rights violations. much of it is hidden to the usa audience, due to the very biased media, which is why some of the pakistani interactors from us on this site seem to be so ill-informed and are caught up in with us-or against us propoganda....

but rest assured, pakistan nor pakistanis have never been on top of any arab agenda......

#633 by soysauce

... the attitude that arabs are accused of are probably classist in nature rather than racist, what with a vast majority of subcontinentals working in rich arab countries as laborers...

You`ve explained this perfectly. This is the reason some rich arabs look down upon nationalities of menial workers. It is proven by the fact that they treat filipinos, sri lankans even worse whose women work as domestic servants.

hamidm #626 No need to berate all arabs. Just stick to the Arab bootlickers on chowk. These are the individuals who stink to high heaven (or hell, which is where they are no doubt headed in my simple muslim mind). I have in fact seen a palestinian put one of these bootlickers in their place in real life when the bootlicker in question started harping about ``Islamic Ummah``. They palestinian replied that he was in fact christian, his wife muslim, and the two of them were happy to be just palestinians.

#630
I have been to egypt and the bedouins i met there were very friendly and wanted to discuss bollywood. Unfortunately i know very little about movies but we found other things to talk about.
I suspect that the attitude that arabs are accused of are probably classist in nature rather than racist, what with a vast majority of subcontinentals working in rich arab countries as laborers. We`d behave the same way if the tables were turned.

Zeemax #631 I heard an even funnier thing: the sunni mullah Zawahiri lending support to the Shia Hezbullah. The two would be at each other`s throats if there was no israel.

And even more funny: a pakistani expat getting all worked up about the ``plight of the Noble White Arabs``, while blissfully unconcerned with misery of ``fellow`` Pakistanis inside Pakistan.

Zeemax - I am beginning to think that it is you, not Masadi, who is the greater genius on Chowk. It`s a tough call to make though. You are both so brilliant. :-)

Funniest thing I heard today. A Fox expert was dismissing today`s Zawahiri video as just trying to gain publicity from a major event, because they do not have the capability to actually do anything.

Will wonders never cease? I mean, I actually thought the war-on-terror was against Al-Keyda. Such a big war against an enemy without any capability?

Strange. Upside down world.

#628 by bulleya

Ok. Then why did all the Arab heads of state gather in Lahore for a summit if they didn`t give two hoots?

You and hamidm are speaking from adverse personal experiences, and generalising them to a whole people. I have different experiences. One of my cousins is married to a Palestinian, and moroccans/algerians have been my neighbors.

#622 arjun_m
Let`s see. Nazis were in power when they rounded up the jews. I guess the difference is apparent to you because coincidentally you happen to live in the country that votes in one set of homicidal maniacs and your loyalty is unexamined and automatic.
The firebombing of dresden or wholesale evisceration of hiroshima or nagasaki are comparable in scale and level of deprivation to the holocaust.
Just because you do one kind of killing from a distance - where you drop missiles with phosphor (as in lebanon) or sharp objects (as in gaza) from air on civilian areas and call it collateral damage, does not differentiate you from a man with a backpack walking into a cafe and blowing everyone up.
Osama calls 9-11 a collateral damage of the reaction to american foreign policy. If language is all it took to wipe away responsibility, al Quaeda is no longer guilty of anything.

hamid2`s remarks about arabs` treatment of pakistanis are quite accurate. i am speaking from personal experience to some extent. also arabs don`t really give two hoots about pakistan. many of them are amongst the most racist towards pakistanis. palestinians are more pro-india than pro-pakistan. they sent a delegation to india when india was about to attack pakistan a few years ago.....i have had discussions with palestinians on kashmir, and they have no clue about it. i have never heard yasir arafat or anyone speak about it...

thus i am also always surprised why pakistanis are so attached to arabs and to palestine from a religious point of view. shouldn`t it be a two-way street.

having said that, as human beings, one should still highlight the way the human rights of palestinians and lebanese have and are being violated, with or without hamas and hezbollah. but, in my opinion, not as an islamic ummah of some sorts, until they do the same when pakistan is in a similar situation.....

#626 by hamidm2

....their supercilious and often demeaning attitude towards pakis....

I haven`t been to Saudi Arabia so I don`t know, but you put forth Saudia as if the only Arabs in the world are Saudis. How come you make such a sweeping statement? What about the Arabs from all kinds of places in Dearborn. Have they treated you in a demeaning manner?

Re: #615 by HP on July 27, 2006 0:32am PT

Dear HP:

I totally disagree with the notion that

{Second, the line of argument that people should not criticize the US if they live here is absolutely childish and basically tells me that person bringing someone’s residence up for discussion is out of legit arguments.}

The mere fact of one being an immigrant shows that the person has rejected his place of birth or upbringing, and came to the new environment. This in and of itself should remove his ability of being authentic in his arguments.

Second, when a person is a believer of different values in a new system of values, it also impairs his vision and his authenticity.

{The US is not some religious object neither is it a place to worship that people should always bow before it. }

Granted, that the US is not some religious place to bow before it. But, when one takes a pledge of allegiance that is exactly what one does, and that is protect and defend the constitution of the US.

{When people criticize the US, they are criticizing the government or the administration and not the country itself. People have every right to criticize the US government no matter what their residence status is.}

Disagreed. The government of the US is by the people of the US, and rightful criticism can only be authentic by those who are by birth the citizen of the US, and not some displaced immigrant who happens to take his pledge of allegiance.

You as a person can criticize whatever and whosoever you want and that is your right as a human, but once you chose to accept the values of this new society, automatically you should remove yourself from criticism. If you can`t and if you want to remain authentic to yourself, then you must practice what you preach.

Respectfully submitted,