Waiting for Enlightenment

Dr. sahib you are among the few voices of reason in this stifling culture;God bless you for that, we are living in terrible times indeed, something akin to the Dark Ages of Europe.

This is a wonderful article, and people like Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy are hope of the motherland and their words and noble deeds are worth writing with gold.

Muslims of glorious Baghdad and Andulusia ( Spain) translated Greek philosophies and benefited a lot from them, one of those Greek philosophers, Plato said that soldiers should never rule a nation, and only philosophers and men with brains deserve to be heads of nations.

I dedicate following poem to Dr Hoodbhoy, a great son of Pakistan.

A Nation`s Strength

What makes a nation`s pillars high
And it`s foundations strong?
What makes it mighty to defy
The foes that round it throng?

It is not gold. Its kingdoms grand
Go down in battle shock;
Its shafts are laid on sinking sand,
Not on abiding rock.

Is it the sword? Ask the red dust
Of empires passed away;
The blood has turned their stones to rust,
Their glory to decay.

And is it pride? Ah, that bright crown
Has seemed to nations sweet;
But God has struck its luster down
In ashes at his feet.

Not gold but only men can make
A people great and strong;
Men who for truth and honor`s sake
Stand fast and suffer long.

Brave men who work while others sleep,
Who dare while others fly...
They build a nation`s pillars deep
And lift them to the sky.

--Ralph Waldo Emerson

#67 by masadi

Remove the disease of the West that has ruined out institutions by gearing them to their needs rather than the needs of the people, and we can figure out how to best serve our people. You cannot expect any normal development under conditions of slavery.

Yaar Asadi, who do you think will ``remove the disease of the West``? The plight of Muslims today is much better than the plight of Indians was under British rule. If the feeble and impoverished Indians could still kick the Britishers out, what prevents Muslims from doing the same?

ranjit writes <<< The intellectuals like yourself keep obsessing over the theoretical nuances of the message, when the real need is to come up with a practical way of following Islam that is not in permanent conflict with everyone. It requires a message of reform and interpretation of the faith that focuses on the positive and on development. >>>

Remove the disease of the West that has ruined out institutions by gearing them to their needs rather than the needs of the people, and we can figure out how to best serve our people. You cannot expect any normal development under conditions of slavery

hmmmm well about people who think that ``islam`` is the root of pakistan`s numerous problems:
yaar to be honest although i know the kalima and how to pray but beyond that i dont know any thing about this bird called islam. so i make it a point not to give my uneducated commens about any matter that involves islam .... coz the thing is that before this muslim dark age there was a golden age too during which a lot of very learned, progressive and intelligent men have written tons and tons of material on islam of which i know zero. so i think that it will be disrespect to them on my part if i try to make snobbish comments about what i know nothing. so i think that people of my knowledge level who have commented positively or negatively on islam and pakistan, should refrain from it cause thats the only way to show that one is atleast rational if not educated.

abt ``islamists`` and paksitan:
well i think that all those ppl with my level of knowlege about islam, who are trying to use religion in the name of politics are a very big problem.


abt mr hoodhbhoy and his analysis:
yaar mr pervez why dont you concentrate on physics and get us a nobel prize or somethin.

it is clear masadi has problem with most everyone posting - lchaim, nandam, ranjit - no one can say anything without his followup ranting.

As for books, 6billion people on the planet and only in the top 100,000 - not the top 10 or 100 or even 1000? how arrogant to think this is an achievement! then he posts a bit on chowk and thinks he got a following! Many universities have 100,000 students or more who all read many books, but would anyone say that everything they read they wanted to or learned something from it? I read lots books and otherwise but that don`t mean I agree always with what`s written.....I also buy books I never get around to reading or stop reading part way and wish I never bought. And who says I never read your book OR wrote a book? If I had I would not be stupid enough to post on here that its not a top 10 but a top 100,000! Totally laughable.

But obviously masadi doesn`t read because he says there were no ?s but my #49 post and #43 post BOTH begin with obvious ? marks and therefore questions - but he says there were none. Its easy to ignore or refuse to answer but even funnier how he can only again and again and last in BOLD even show ignorance by refusing to read what he even write/copies- the PEOPLE thought Jesus was going to Jerusalem to set up His kingdom. NOT Jesus. Once again, because they thought this Jesus told the parable to explain that He was never going to set up a kingdom at that time, but at the end of this age - the generation of mankind - as you pull out of the air illogically but supports the Luke parable perfectly! Ahumdiallah!! But Masadi also don`t understand that as he wants to box words into one meaning. Neither the Koran or the Bible do that, but both often use words for many meanings - so one has to understand the flow and context to know the meaning - such as Adam meaning the man OR all mankind, Day could refer to creation or judgment day, people often used for believer or non-believer, etc etc. Rest assured I surely won`t ever buy any book you write cuz obvious you can`t follow your own writings and train of thought, much less try to explain books like the Bible and Koran.

If as Islam teaches God sends ALL people into life as INNOCENT beings - then how can it be illogical that an innocent person is killed? Isn`t the whole goal of a muslim to get back to innocent nature after falling away or being led astray? So if God requires submission to attain innocence then why logically would He NOT send an innocent who could remain totally submitted and innocent as the perfect example how to live? If God is capable of all things as Islam claims then this is not illogical, but MOST logical for Him to say the only way to show man how to live perfect innocent submission is for Me to come down and example for them?

The original article outlined how religion isn`t doing a thing for Pakistan and you claim there is no place for a thread to carry on theological argumentation - then you can`t stop arguing religion with everyone - once again HAHAHAHAHAH! I come back for a good laugh every few days.

But seriously, once again your need is to stop ranting and simply READ and humble yourself as Allah requires and pray understanding of what is written....maybe then when you write a book it will make the top 10 amazon - you know what makes the top 10 EVERY list world-wide - the BIBLE written by God - so its a book everyone should definitely be reading.

Re:masadi#63
[...If you are going to criticize Islam as the ``cause`` of the problems then you have to look at its ``theory``....]

Although I am not a muslim, I have sufficient knowledge of Islam`s theory. I have no beef against the religion per se since it teaches a lot of good things, like any other religion. What I object to is 1) the atrocious manner in which the religion is practiced today and 2) the total lack of intellectual vigor in Islamic societies to challenge this atrocious implementation of their faith.

Even you will agree that most muslims practice a faith that has now become a complete caricature of the original message. Imagine if Prophet Muhammad came to earth today and saw muslims carrying out suicide bombings in his name. How do you think he would feel? How do you think he would feel about beheading civlians or shias and sunnis killing each other`s children?

The sad thing is that there is no one in muslim countries actively countering this caricature or cartoonish implementation of their faith by offering practical solutions. The intellectuals like yourself keep obsessing over the theoretical nuances of the message, when the real need is to come up with a practical way of following Islam that is not in permanent conflict with everyone. It requires a message of reform and interpretation of the faith that focuses on the positive and on development.

When hindu society was in a rotten shape, it is not the pundits with their vedic mumbo-jumbo who salvaged the faith. Rather it was people like Raja Ram Mohan Roy and Dayanand Saraswati who reformed hinduism. Can there be people in Islam who can play that role?

ranjit writes <<< Who cares about theory? Just focus on the way islam is practiced in reality across the length and breadth of this planet by 1.5 billion people. It really $ucks!! Suicide bombings, terrorism, sectrian killings, killing/harassing non-muslims, the list goes on and on. Islam as it is practiced is causing most of the misery in this world. Billions of people all over the world wish this religion would just disappear and let mankind live in peace. >>>

If you are going to criticize Islam as the ``cause`` of the problems then you have to look at its ``theory``. You want to ignore the latter because it does not mesh with you assignment of blame, not only is this illogical it shows the stupidity of your analysis of world events that have wider political and economic causes and not religion at all.

Ranjit,

I think Islam really needs a Martin Luther .Christainity was in the same shape before the whole Reformation and the the Protestant movement(perhaps worse).Priests were corrupt,heresy`s and Inquisitions were conducted and people were burnt at stake.
Reformation brought about the best in human spirit, art in the form of paintings,sculpture
of human bodies. Forget the sculpture would for Islam even paintings of fully clothed people are unIslamic.I dare not even mention the plight of women..........................................women delegation from pakistan when they come to india notice women everywhere in the streets,riding a scooters..its hard for them to imagine women being independant.

You are right Islam has outlived its purpose ,either it need reform -some leader bringing it more intuned to modernity-otherwise it will always create conflict.

Re:masadi#55

[...There is no religious text that deals more with the here and now, real human problems, than the Quran even to the extent of saying that unless people`s basic needs are met your act of worship is worthless......]

Masadi, stop your nonsense about the theoretical greatness of islam. Who cares about theory? Just focus on the way islam is practiced in reality across the length and breadth of this planet by 1.5 billion people. It really $ucks!! Suicide bombings, terrorism, sectrian killings, killing/harassing non-muslims, the list goes on and on. Islam as it is practiced is causing most of the misery in this world. Billions of people all over the world wish this religion would just disappear and let mankind live in peace.

From a socio-economic perspective, mulims are backward by every metric. Just check out the HDI index for muslim countries anc compare with regional non-muslim counterparts like Pakistan and India. So this religion does not even deliver economically. So what good is it except for some mindless rhetoric that gets repeated over and over again?

Masadi writes ``The so-called IT revolution affects less than 1% of the population of India and coolies of the West don`t transform anything, they are good for propaganda fodder and little else. Your contry is going down the tube as far as the people go, like the rest of the ``third world`` and Hinduism is no factor in its rescue.``

Well I would rather be naked cyber coolie than a slave of this brutal ,barbaric medieval religion .
As for these figures the are official UN figures.
Its strange how hate ,bitterness, exposure to propoganda can make us look obnoxious
but then why blame the person ......blame the ideology

Masadi have you ever visited India??????

nandan writes <<< Masadi get your figures right .According to the latest surveys about 350-400 million people live below the poverty line ,75% of which are in rural India.. >>>

My figures are correct, the way the Indian government measures poverty using the food line is way outdated and deliberately understates poverty, even using the US measure of food time three would easily triple the official rate. I had posted the references in one of the threads long time back, you can locate it under my name on your own time. The so-called IT revolution affects less than 1% of the population of India and coolies of the West don`t transform anything, they are good for propaganda fodder and little else. Your contry is going down the tube as far as the people go, like the rest of the ``third world`` and Hinduism is no factor in its rescue.

Masadi get your figures right .According to the latest surveys about 350-400 million people live below the poverty line ,75% of which are in rural India....thanks to the lack of land reforms.I fear pakistan with its feudal system would be even worse.

I speak of 400 million indian middle class ,educated and sincere in transforming of this beatiful country which has made tremendous progress in last 50 odd years ,Which would still would have made more ground had it not been for our inefficient bureacracy and corrupt poiliticians.

Atleast we dont have the mullahs and the Army.

#56 nandan writes <<< Lets assume your logic is true ,then the Islamic world especially pakistan should be the most developed in all sense.Is honour killing sectarian voilence,fundamentalism development,contempt for the kafirs....maybe for you it is. >>>

In your assumptions, you are assuming that the leaders of Pakistan are concerned about the spirit of the Quran, you are assuming that mullahism is the same as the Quran, you are assuming that countries operate in isolation and begin with uniform histories, you are assuming that just because a few less than 1% of the populations of those ``successful`` countries are prospering those countries are going places. Ask the over 90% in India that languish in debilitating poverty of the over 50% of the population of the US that has lost 80% of its net worth since the 1970s while working more hours on average than they did back then. You have no clothes on, so I suggest you cover up your shame and run along.

Masadi,

lets assume your logic is true ,then the Islamic world especially pakistan should be the most developed in all sense.Is honour killing sectarian voilence,fundamentalism development,contempt for the kafirs....maybe for you it is.
India Insallah would be soon a prosperous country .Atleast we are headed the right way
Hindism,buddhism ,christainity are great religion becuase look at the world with the followers of these religions and see where these countries are headed and look at pakistan...............jesus

Ranjit the theologian writes <<< Hindus never bought into it. But muslims have bought into religious escapism, lock stock and barrel. Nothing can really change that. >>>

That is why they have a society (India) that suffers from over 90% real poverty to show for it. There is no religious text that deals more with the here and now, real human problems, than the Quran even to the extent of saying that unless people`s basic needs are met your act of worship is worthless. On the other hand you have Hinduism which has fully structured whole course of life and life chances through its caste system, and its branch Buddhism that makes the whole purpose of life the attainment of nothingness away from this world. Talk about turbo-charged ``opium of the masses``. And then there is Chiristianity that says that everything goes because Jesus already died for you, just repeat this forumla and heaven is yours, and knowing that bomb every Non-Christian as much as you choose to, because the dark skin sons of Ham are under God`s curse anyway and those sons of the ``wild donkey`` Ishmael, the Arabs, well they are predestined to be violent so do as you will with them. And these damn fools have the audacity to point fingers at Islam.