Waiting for Enlightenment

Ranjit,

I think Islam really needs a Martin Luther .Christainity was in the same shape before the whole Reformation and the the Protestant movement(perhaps worse).Priests were corrupt,heresy`s and Inquisitions were conducted and people were burnt at stake.
Reformation brought about the best in human spirit, art in the form of paintings,sculpture
of human bodies. Forget the sculpture would for Islam even paintings of fully clothed people are unIslamic.I dare not even mention the plight of women..........................................women delegation from pakistan when they come to india notice women everywhere in the streets,riding a scooters..its hard for them to imagine women being independant.

You are right Islam has outlived its purpose ,either it need reform -some leader bringing it more intuned to modernity-otherwise it will always create conflict.

Re:masadi#55

[...There is no religious text that deals more with the here and now, real human problems, than the Quran even to the extent of saying that unless people`s basic needs are met your act of worship is worthless......]

Masadi, stop your nonsense about the theoretical greatness of islam. Who cares about theory? Just focus on the way islam is practiced in reality across the length and breadth of this planet by 1.5 billion people. It really $ucks!! Suicide bombings, terrorism, sectrian killings, killing/harassing non-muslims, the list goes on and on. Islam as it is practiced is causing most of the misery in this world. Billions of people all over the world wish this religion would just disappear and let mankind live in peace.

From a socio-economic perspective, mulims are backward by every metric. Just check out the HDI index for muslim countries anc compare with regional non-muslim counterparts like Pakistan and India. So this religion does not even deliver economically. So what good is it except for some mindless rhetoric that gets repeated over and over again?

Masadi writes ``The so-called IT revolution affects less than 1% of the population of India and coolies of the West don`t transform anything, they are good for propaganda fodder and little else. Your contry is going down the tube as far as the people go, like the rest of the ``third world`` and Hinduism is no factor in its rescue.``

Well I would rather be naked cyber coolie than a slave of this brutal ,barbaric medieval religion .
As for these figures the are official UN figures.
Its strange how hate ,bitterness, exposure to propoganda can make us look obnoxious
but then why blame the person ......blame the ideology

Masadi have you ever visited India??????

nandan writes <<< Masadi get your figures right .According to the latest surveys about 350-400 million people live below the poverty line ,75% of which are in rural India.. >>>

My figures are correct, the way the Indian government measures poverty using the food line is way outdated and deliberately understates poverty, even using the US measure of food time three would easily triple the official rate. I had posted the references in one of the threads long time back, you can locate it under my name on your own time. The so-called IT revolution affects less than 1% of the population of India and coolies of the West don`t transform anything, they are good for propaganda fodder and little else. Your contry is going down the tube as far as the people go, like the rest of the ``third world`` and Hinduism is no factor in its rescue.

Masadi get your figures right .According to the latest surveys about 350-400 million people live below the poverty line ,75% of which are in rural India....thanks to the lack of land reforms.I fear pakistan with its feudal system would be even worse.

I speak of 400 million indian middle class ,educated and sincere in transforming of this beatiful country which has made tremendous progress in last 50 odd years ,Which would still would have made more ground had it not been for our inefficient bureacracy and corrupt poiliticians.

Atleast we dont have the mullahs and the Army.

#56 nandan writes <<< Lets assume your logic is true ,then the Islamic world especially pakistan should be the most developed in all sense.Is honour killing sectarian voilence,fundamentalism development,contempt for the kafirs....maybe for you it is. >>>

In your assumptions, you are assuming that the leaders of Pakistan are concerned about the spirit of the Quran, you are assuming that mullahism is the same as the Quran, you are assuming that countries operate in isolation and begin with uniform histories, you are assuming that just because a few less than 1% of the populations of those ``successful`` countries are prospering those countries are going places. Ask the over 90% in India that languish in debilitating poverty of the over 50% of the population of the US that has lost 80% of its net worth since the 1970s while working more hours on average than they did back then. You have no clothes on, so I suggest you cover up your shame and run along.

Masadi,

lets assume your logic is true ,then the Islamic world especially pakistan should be the most developed in all sense.Is honour killing sectarian voilence,fundamentalism development,contempt for the kafirs....maybe for you it is.
India Insallah would be soon a prosperous country .Atleast we are headed the right way
Hindism,buddhism ,christainity are great religion becuase look at the world with the followers of these religions and see where these countries are headed and look at pakistan...............jesus

Ranjit the theologian writes <<< Hindus never bought into it. But muslims have bought into religious escapism, lock stock and barrel. Nothing can really change that. >>>

That is why they have a society (India) that suffers from over 90% real poverty to show for it. There is no religious text that deals more with the here and now, real human problems, than the Quran even to the extent of saying that unless people`s basic needs are met your act of worship is worthless. On the other hand you have Hinduism which has fully structured whole course of life and life chances through its caste system, and its branch Buddhism that makes the whole purpose of life the attainment of nothingness away from this world. Talk about turbo-charged ``opium of the masses``. And then there is Chiristianity that says that everything goes because Jesus already died for you, just repeat this forumla and heaven is yours, and knowing that bomb every Non-Christian as much as you choose to, because the dark skin sons of Ham are under God`s curse anyway and those sons of the ``wild donkey`` Ishmael, the Arabs, well they are predestined to be violent so do as you will with them. And these damn fools have the audacity to point fingers at Islam.

Ichaim writes in #53 <<< Masadi, I can only say it is most interesting to me that you never actually answered any of the questions I posed. >>>

Actually you didn`t have a question, all you had were claims based on your prejudice and lack of knowledge about Islam, interspaced with trying to push a system that says that it is alright for an innocent man to be killed in order to wash away the sins of the guilty. That is supreme injustice, that tolerates the evil of the guilty by punishing the innocent, just like what Christian nations, like the US are doing all over the globe. You point fingers at Muslim nations, even though their rulers have absolutely nothing to do with Islam or religion, neither does their progess in the global arena yet forget your own barbaric endeavours throughout the colonial era and before where Christians have been the most unenlightened barbarians, burning women as witches, plundering the earth, Killing Jews as Christ killers and inter-religious wars second to none in human history.

Apparently you don`t even know your own Bible, the context of Luke 19:27, if you read verse 11 is

11While they were listening to this, he went on to tell them a parable, because he was near Jerusalem and the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once.,

Ichaim writes <<< If someone presents a different point of view and Islam is supposed to teach tolerance, why can’t you tolerate other viewpoints? >>>

I was more tolerable that baselessly accusing your religion of advocating murder and rape as you were doing for Islam. Further, my tolerance regarding you evangelical is at its end, I have dealt with you back home, pushing your BS and I have dealt with you on campus here pushing your holier than thou, racial superiority, colonial BS as ``love and tolerance``.

Ichaim writes <<< You may write books but who reads them? >>>

You haven`t so you are in no position to comment on it. Out of all the books, the Christianity book I wrote is read the most 5 years after publication it hovers in the top 100,000 on amazon out of over 2 million, so I would say enough people are reading it.

Ichaim writes <<< Maybe if Kaku returned to reading the Bible he would understand that the only time earthly time will end and a new time dimension will take over completely is when Jesus returns to institute eternal time again for man as it has always existed as that is where God was/is, not in earthly time but omnipresent time, right? >>>

More BS all those prophecies are fake given the premise of what Jesus himself said and what your gospels record

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things are fulfilled. Matthew 24:34

Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. Mark 13:30

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Luke 21:32


Now tell me how many generations have passed since these words were written?

You can belive in an unjust, immoral, illogical system of an innocent person being killed to wash away the sins of the guilty but my concept of a Just, logical, rational God does not allow me to accept that BS.

This is not a thread in which to carry on theological argumentation, so I suggest you write an article and then I can let you have it.

Masadi, I can only say it is most interesting to me that you never actually answered any of the questions I posed.

The article is posing the issue of the dichotomy of Pakistan being built on religious overtones that are supposed to be superior and questioning why this, even with Musharraf’s enlightened views of Islam, does not ever seem to move Pakistan forward. My postings were simply to present a rebuttal about another posting that seemed to say the same thing but made it even worse by saying that in Islam peace is to be attained thru violence and war –and without that Pakistan will not go anywhere.

What I presented was the true concept of peace as found thru Jesus, who can today be seen as part of both Islam and yes Christianity. If the article is about religion being distorted, then how can you suggest it improper that editors would not allow religious discussion and someone would try to clarify how the religion became distorted which is affecting Pakistan – the whole point of the article. For you to pose this illogical statement can only amaze me!

Next this latest answer you gave #52 was not even adequate as your emotions once again overcame you and you did not even realize what was being posed originally. If someone presents a different point of view and Islam is supposed to teach tolerance, why can’t you tolerate other viewpoints? The article itself presents how Saudi mutaween distort Islam and how some can never reconcile how religious principles and modern ideals of society fit together (tho not all) and how the Pakistan really only remains religious because the army is infiltrated by islamists and allows them to keep the distortions running. The article to me asks if there is any way to influence and change these distortions. And you seem to be against anyone trying to show a way that will clear all of it up - LOVE as Jesus teaches and supposed Islam accepts the teachings of Jesus….how can this make you angry?

Anyway, the answer you gave is also not adequate because you didn’t realize the obvious conclusion - that as Jesus is God He is the only being who can CONTROL His anger and responses to it or any other emotion totally. Obvious to us all you are not God as you can’t control your anger. That you don`t understand that makes me question if you have any concept of who God is – for a Muslim or a Christian. Then you say you want to write a book about it……………..my emotion on that can only be laughter!

You may write books but who reads them? And we can all agree lots of people write books on their own musings –so what? Even lots write long winded Ph.D dissertations and books from their years of study. But all this generally means is that they have studied a particular subject or concept endlessly for years. And for the most part they study so that they can prove a theory or position as they see it - but not to find the truth. Take for example Micheo Kaku – do you know who he is? Great scientist physicist who has wasted most of his years now trying to prove a different form of time exists than what God created (wormholes and the like). Time that will get mankind into a new life dimension…………………what he forgets is man will never be able to figure out or control time or change the current realm of time completely – because GOD created and controls time, not us! A bit off the point but just to prove that here is guy that studies and writes lots of books but really has forsaken the only book that could help explain time as much as any one mind can ever understand – the Bible. God is timeless and transcends all time, man is not and can not. This is also why our finite minds can not understand fully a lot of religious concepts. Maybe if Kaku returned to reading the Bible he would understand that the only time earthly time will end and a new time dimension will take over completely is when Jesus returns to institute eternal time again for man as it has always existed as that is where God was/is, not in earthly time but omnipresent time, right?

Anyway, hopefully you will continue to study before writing that book on whatever topic because obviously what you read about religion you don’t do a thorough enough job to comprehend. What I clearly wrote about the Luke event is Jesus was not on His way to Jerusalem to set up a kingdom at that time as you still think. He was talking about the kingdom to come at the end of earthly time when He will return to reinstate eternal time again – whereby earthly time and therefore the earth and all people have to be dealt with and either destroyed because they chose evil that can not exist in His presence or taken into the eternal realm with Him. Jesus time on earth and what happened (his birth death and resurrection) was again controlled by Him because He is God. If God is all knowing and all capable as Islam claims then why wouldn’t HE want to be the one who provides the solution for our death caused by sin by dying and rising to overcome death Himself? What could be more logical? Why pray endlessly endlessly and say insha`allah endlessly? What could be a better solution to the many many problems man creates as well as being unable to live in toleration than to follow Jesus and His message of love that wil cleanse your sin forever AND brings lasting peace? Last from me on this if you want to continue to rant or “challenge” go right ahead. I can only hope it has enlightened some as the article suggested was possible.

#49 Ichaim writes <<< Muslims do believe that God has attribute of anger, right? So it is not illogical to then believe that Jesus, Himself true God, could and would become angry when people refused to accept His statement? So this would only further prove that Jesus is God because altho He made this statement, He NEVER acted on it and killed anyone >>>

Firstly, this is not a board on Islam/Christianity discussion so your nonsense trying to push your religion should have been removed by the editors. Second, your post is full of contradictions and I will just point to one, if you want further discussion, do a post on it and I will dismantle your bs,I happen to have written a book on the subject so don`t try to tell me that I don`t know what the Bible says of what Jesus said and in what context.

You say above that God has an attribute of anger and since Jesus had the same attribute he was God in the flesh. Well I have an attribute of anger, does that make me God? What kind of a dim wit reason was that? Next, God has indeed killed people, so if Jesus didn`t kill anyone ``proves`` according to your dim wit reasoning that he was not God, does it not?

Next Luke 19:27 was the rant that is attributed to Jesus on his way to Jerusalem where the kingdom of God was to come and he was to reign and he asks for his enemies to be slayed, but we all know what happened, he was captured, end of story and fake prophecy. Anything else you want to add?

Dear Pervez
What is good is not as you mentioned that `female announcers with undraped heads freelyappear on PakistanTelevision ;forthis picture is not a true indicator of freedom of choice in what one wears. Occident or nearer here, dont forget the person who feels comfy while wearing something ``well clad`` and ``well draped`. As what people watch on their Tv sets influences them. This entity of `psychological normality` [more com mon than you think] may feel looked down upon and inferior to the bold, undraped `look.` Even in the west there is solid importance given to [Hillary] Family values and sense of` modess-ty.`

Re: # 49

Interesting.

I am really interested in this concept. Would you please explain whether the concept of ``God in Jesus`` has merged through a process of induction and deduction or is there an explicit reference in the Holy Bible in this regard. I have a similar question about the concept of ``Jesus as Son of God`` too but I think you do not subsciribe to that doctrine.

The second question is that, as a Muslim, it is part of my belief that Jesus Christ (pbuh) will be ressurected and he will establish peace in the world as the savior of mankind before the End of Days come; so does this belief makes me, as a Muslim, an anti-Christ or a disciple of Christ (pbuh). And second part of this question is that iif one believes in Jesus Christ (pbuh) as god himself but is so unrighteous, so unjust and inflicts so much pain on humanity, destroys countries after countries, kills women and children in the hopes that the turmoil that his holy war causes is the necessary condition to fulfill the prophecy of Rapture, then when Jesus (pbuh) descends, the question is, would Jesus rather give him salvation in return for all the mayhem that he has caused , or Jesus will rather give salvation to those who have been his victims, were wronged and tortured?

In other words if Jesus (pbuh) will only gives salvation to those who belive in him as god regardless of all the injustices, transgressions, and attrocitries they have committed then Jesus (pbuh) that you have in mind apperas nothing but like one of those ancient pagan gods of death, war, and destruction who used to be ritually summoned by sacrificing human blood. This Jesus appears nothing like the kind, gentle, and honest man that our books portray him to be; the man who stood by his belief in One God with his love for the salvation of his people even in the face of imminent death by crucifixion.

Masadi #46 – Someone writes an illogical statement and you expect us to sit by and not say something when we can clarify what peace and love truly are? Do you agree with the statement that Isam was created to bring peace thru war? Are you saying that you as a Muslim do not revere the teachings of Jesus as Mohammed taught?

Even if you do study them, unfortunately you do not understand Jesus’ teachings because the Luke passage did not refer to money or killing people at that time but to the end times. The passage truly refers to those who did not use the spiritual gifts given to them by God and did not realize the reason they were given gifts was not to horde them (keep them to themselves) but to use them to help build the kingdom (of love) on earth – this included hording money or anything else.

Muslims do believe that God has attribute of anger, right? So it is not illogical to then believe that Jesus, Himself true God, could and would become angry when people refused to accept His statement? So this would only further prove that Jesus is God because altho He made this statement, He NEVER acted on it and killed anyone. It proves He could control His anger and knew when to act and not act unlike common man. Unlike even prophet Mohammed who when he felt threatened or could not agree with neighbors either killed them himself, had someone else kill them or started a war, Jesus never killed anyone. So that Jesus would state in anger and truthfully that one day (the end of world) anyone who does not accept Him as God, Lord and Savior and use their spiritual or wealth gifts to build the kingdom of God’s love on earth WILL be brought before Him and killed is not illogical or wrong.

Islam believes that Jesus will come back with a SWORD to lead a war so that people will know to live by the rules of Islam – if you don’t follow the rules you are dead. Christianity presents that Jesus will return with a sword to destroy all evil on the earth and set believers free. Because evil can not exist in God’s holy presence when He reigns on earth is why Jesus returns to destroy evil so His people can be FREE to love God and each other – there are many ways to love and serve God because God has made us all different – the only rule that will exist then is love.

I don’t think there are many who would argue that one day God will judge all people and either condemn each person eternally or receive paradise life eternally. To a Christian eternal life is based on belief in Jesus as God and Savior – to both Christian and Muslim amount of reward in heaven is based upon how they lived (used their gifts) on earth. Jesus statement in Luke also confirms that He is God because God is the only one able to give and take life, right? So Jesus was teaching people this – come to Me and have life or don’t come and I will surely one day take away your life at the end because I am God and able to do that.

Mohammed did not accept the former teachings of many prophets, much less the teachings of Jesus Christ. Mohammed changed many of the former teachings because he realized if he did not refute them he would have to give up his powerplays and become a nobody again. Exactly as Jesus said in Luke 19 is what Mohammed did – he chose money and power over the true spiritual kingdom – even worse, he set up a religion to use as a means to justify his actions. So your quote only proves Jesus words WERE true at that time and will come true for Mohammed and everyone else at the end times when Jesus returns to destroy those evil ones who never choose Him as king. The only Bible quotes you note also confirm what Jesus said in this Luke statement - that Jesus fulfilled all the laws and clarified the greatest law is love - heaven and earth will end and Jesus will make it happen - the greatest command again is love and it can not be relaxed or taken over by hatred, killing, war and rape - can only pray this is logical enough for you.

The premise of Mr. Hoodhboy`s article is that enlightenment and Islamic fundamentalism are antithetical. There are a few problems with this position:

a) Islamic fundamentalism enjoys an impressive intellectual pedigree. Maudoodi, Syed Qutub, et al., couched their arguments in political realities and sophisticated arguments, instead of fatwas. We may disagree with these arguments, but can`t deny their existence.

b) Enlightenment is about consciousness, irrespective of ideology. An enlightened person makes his life choices consciously, whereas an ignorant person is a blind follower. A politically conscious Jihadi may be more enlightened than an American citizen who only consumes ``popcorn`` news from CNN and Fox News.

c) The ultimate goal of enlightenment is to increase accountability. You have just touched upon internal accountability (of generals, politicians, ulema, etc). This is just tip of the iceberg. External accountability of Israel, US, India and other aggressors against Muslims is equally important.

``We are living in an age where old is dying and new is not born``.The socio political conditions in pakistan are not because of the religious zeolist attitude...there are many factors.
ecnomics,lack of political leadership,anarchy,parallel system,class struggle,and in this situation people use religion as a veil to hide from the realities of life.
Hijab is more a cultural/religious problem.I attended qau 2003-05 badge.
Hijab is visible more in faculity of natural science.
physics and Maths, and its only because of the islamilization by the teachers.
I myself have heard stories abt teachers who fail the female students because they were not wearing duppata during the class.
Its a race to be pious,modest..in a so called corrupted society.
and there is parallel westrenization is also underway.
Mcdonalds,kfc,consumerism is on rise in pakistan.
But yes on the whole islamilization,lack of acedmeic debate, cult rigid attitudes..all are responsible for the blighted state of Pakistani society.