A New Middle East

#619 Anil {``Separation of Terrorism, now is just as important, as separation of state and church was in the past. Islam must see it, and purge whatever is not relevant and susceptible to corrupt its message. Only muslims from within can do it, the rest of the world will continue to put unimaginable relentless pressure until the rebirth. That is the way I see it. How do you see it?``}

Anil Bhai,
Essentially I see it the same way as you do - except that I cannot condone the deadlier, more violent, and even more murderous retaliation of Isreael (supported by the Bush/Blair administrations) against innocent children, women, and men than the evil actions of the terrorists. I agree with secularism, separation of mosque and state, and complete freedoms of religion, press, assembly, and speach. By the way, I don`t know if you have noticed it, but the US press has demonstrated that it is free for pro-Israeli sentiment but not free for balanced reporting.

I do not see Islam as a conquering, all-powerful force, destined to convert everyone to its perspective. I do see Islam as a proponent of universal egalitarianism, protector of the weak and the disposessed, and a hope for mankind`s struggle to be fair, just, free, and honest. Unfortunately, today Islam is often a tool in the hands of monarchists, dictators, terrorists, selfishness, cruelty, and injustice. As I have said before, Saudi Arabia is more responsible for this situation than any other organization.

Somebody said ``State Terrorism``.................. I thought that Army Dictators and Totalitarian Regimes mainly used state apparatus to bring martial laws, Hudood Laws which are precisely the way state terrorizes its civilians into submission to unjust civil laws................democracies have its checks and balances to ease out such laws that may exist or are imposed.....................calling response to terror attacks as State Terrorism is indeed an original contribution by the Islamists.....................

#612 by Salim_Chauhan on August 3, 2006 9:02am PT


This convergence of viewpoints is very significant.


The convergence of the viewpoints of you, scout and a few thousand moderate muslims is hardly significant..

Let me put it another way...When the % of muslims(or even arabs) who are against the hezbollah comes close to the % of jews who are against the Israeli actions, then we`ll talk...

Re: # 617

Salim bhai:

History is witness to Islam`s rise and wealth of civilization, just as it is witness to its cruelty and down fall. The real issue as I see is the disconnect within Islam, its inability to see and act decisively against the terror that can be unleashed by interpretation of its holiest book.

Tony Blair and George W Bush are only messenger (may be aggressive messengers), the message must not be lost. Rightly or wrongly, excesses are done by both sides in the war. Victors excesses remain the footnote in the history, vanquished is punished for the excesses. It is too early to say who is victor and who is vanquished. Although, I know who I want to prevail, and it is certainly not the terror. At times one can only fight fire with fire. So let us not fret over it, build the force to change and give power and center back to the moderate Isalm, you can do it. I, as the non-religious person, can only be the observer.

Separation of Terrorism, now is just as important, as separation of state and church was in the past. Islam must see it, and purge whatever is not relevant and susceptible to corrupt its message. Only muslims from within can do it, the rest of the world will continue to put unimaginable relentless pressure until the rebirth. That is the way I see it. How do you see it?

Anil

matrix #606 you write Common sense is not a univeral principle because it varies from one person to the next.

Common sense means avoiding that which hurts you and doing that which is to your advantage. And almost by definition, a stupid man is one who lacks common sense. And as they say, common sense is in fact very uncommon. Particularly among Pakistanis when it comes to ``fellow muslims`` to the west (those to the east, bengalis and so on, dont seem to elicit the same love and adoration). A study of the Khilafat movement, when the Turks themselves gave the ``muslim ummah`` of India a dose of reality will illustrate what I mean.

you write Palestinians have as much right as Israelies and nothing less, therefore, proper solution for these people is democratic single state. What you got against that? I am in fact all in favor of a Palestinian state. Why did you assume that anyone who argues for using common sense on this issue is against Palestinians? As I wrote earlier - Jinnah applied common sense and accepted what even he himself termed a ``moth eaten Pakistan`` since he knew this was the best deal he was going to get. And he got Pakistan, and no one in Pakistan ever misses Gurdaspur district. Palestinians had a similar deal for them in 1948 I believe (per the post by PewResearch below) which they turned down - and which would have given them more land than even the 1967 borders that they are arguing for now. Picking a fight where you lack the military strength (e.g. complete air control is with israelis) is like playing as if you hold all aces while holding jacks.

you write I also know that you talk about victimhood. No people have collected more in compensation than Zionists and they don`t want any competition.
You are very right here. But what has palestinians collected for all their talk of ``victimhood`` over the past 50 years? Nothing.

Enjoyed reading your post, and look forward to what you say you are going to write about 1947.

#616, Anil {``The rest of the world is determined and united to isolate terrorists of all shades of color and religion. This is the sublimal unity platform for rest of the world.
...Only thing I know is that no one wins in war of hatred, everyone looses, including sanity. ``}

Anil Bhai,
I agree with your analysis and the very appropriate concluding sentence. I am glad that you qualified the determination of the rest of the world with the words ``terrorists of ALL shade of color and religion.`` As you can see, the entire world is uniting against Bush/Blair administrations for their unilateral agenda for world domination, use of force and their hypocritical and cruel but solid support for Israel`s aggression. Yes, the world is seeing how absolute power is corrupting these two absolutely. The positive result will be the sidelining and trivializing of AlKayda and other harmful and evil groups. Mainstream Muslim moderates will take over the defense of their women and children (and resources) against external aggressors and home-grown sellouts. It happened before and will happen again - note the sidelining and disappearance of the Hashasheen, the unity of Kurds, Turks, and Arabs under Nuruddin and Salahuddin and the eventual defeat and rout of the Crusaders - followed by the compassion and generosity of Muslim conquerors.

Re: # 611

Salim Sahib:

Remember you read this analysis for the first time from me. The most significant are the Tony Blair`s Thursday speech, and contrasting responses of Israel to kidnappings, and India`s response to recent bombing. The world will reward India for its response, could be a permanent seat in security council or something else.

As time progresses and yesterdays strategies become todays tactics to be discarded later, Line of terror will close in on that region with oil fields isolated as world`s resources with people living on top as the protector when they are ready to protect and be part of the world community.

Your advocacy of India - Pakistan reconciliation will have an answer too, because India would not want the line of terror to be its western borders. There will be interesting alliances formed between India and part or whole of Pakistan, depending how much success Pakistani leaders have in pushing line of terror outside there country.

The rest of the world is determined and united to isolate terrorists of all shades of color and religion. This is the sublimal unity platform for rest of the world.

If the Islamic world, now choosess to be uniting, in reaction, then it is sad for the short term as it means more bloodshed. I am, however, optimistic that moderate voices will come out, sooner the better than later. Islam has produced great civilization. This is not Samuel Huntington`s Clash of Civilization. Although muslims may continue to see it this way, as long as there is no separation of terrorism inside Islam.

BTW, I am merely looking and reading the events unfolding. As Lebanon is turned into rubble, one more cause got added, muslim hatred of Jews (for some reason, the world refuses to see other way round). Who wins no one knows. Only thing I know is that no one wins in war of hatred, everyone looses, including sanity.

Anil

#614, hamidum2 {``personally, i find this alarming since it forebodes cloaked and turbaned mullahs on the beach instead of girls in bikinis ........... ``}

Hamidum Sahib,
The two are NOT mutually exclusive. :) and I don`t mean cloaked AND turbined, either.

{``so you are saying is that this a good thing for the muslims, then what are they bit$%en about ?............. the israelis are killing them for their own good !``}

Hamidum Sahib,
Islam zinda hota he her Karbala ke baad.

Re: # 612

salim mian,

you say :``This will have the effect of bridging the gap between Shia/Sunni, secular/religious, liberal/conservative, and most other meaningless and trivial distinctions among Muslims.``............ so you are saying is that this a good thing for the muslims, then what are they bit$%en about ?............. the israelis are killing them for their own good !

............personally, i find this alarming since it forebodes cloaked and turbaned mullahs on the beach instead of girls in bikinis ........... but if, as you say, it is good for the ummah i will learn to live with it ........

Iran-Leader-Message

Supreme Leader of the Islamic Revolution Ayatollah Seyed Ali Khamenei Wednesday condemned the tragic disaster at the Lebanese village of Qana and the silence of UN and the so-called supporters of human rights on the Zionist regime`s crimes in Lebanon.

In his message to the world of Islam, the Supreme Leader said ``The events in Lebanon have exposed the true nature of American human rights, and have revealed the kind of Middle East the American government intends to have.``

``Today Hizbullah is on the frontline of the sacred defense of the Muslim ummah and all nations of the region,`` said Ayatollah Khamenei.

``Bush and his American cohorts share the same degree of guilt in the disasters brought upon Lebanon as the evil and wicked Zionist regime. And the silence of the United Nations and many of the western governments and above all the support by some governments, such as the notorious British government, make them accountable and partners in crime in varying degrees in contemporary and future judgment of humanity and in the day of reckoning and divine judgment day,`` said the Leader.

The Supreme Leader stressed that more than ever before the Muslim nations loathe America. Their governments, even those that are constrained because of political considerations, loath and oppose the American government because of so much outrageous and arrogant aggressions.

``The American regime must expect a hard slap on the face and the crushing fist of Muslim ummah because of its support for the crimes and the Zionist criminals and its blatant violation of the rights of Muslim nations.

``The resistance of the people of Lebanon and the heroic struggles of Hizbollah and power arising from their faith, endurance and trust in God is another sign of awakening in the Islamic world and a mark of their firm resolve against animosities and hostilities.

``The iron fist of the faithful, brave and innocent youth of Lebanon has landed on the hideous face of the aggressors and has broken the glassy shield of their conceited and drunken vanity,`` said the Leader.

Scout, Hamidum, Arjun, et al

First of all, let me state that on this rather broad subject of the cruel and murderous Israeli aggression, the treachery and complicity of the Bush/Blair administrations, and the hypocrisy of the Saudi/Jordanian/Egyptian/Pakistani puppet regimes, I, and many other moderate Muslims, share Scout`s opinion. This convergence of viewpoints is very significant. It is bringing together the broad spectrum of Muslim viewpoints to recognize that the indiscriminate bombing and shelling by Israel and the accompanying heartless and gutless support of Israel by the west is something directed at all of us. This will have the effect of bridging the gap between Shia/Sunni, secular/religious, liberal/conservative, and most other meaningless and trivial distinctions among Muslims.

Whether Hezbollah started it, whether this is a war against terrorism, or whether the west is helping to establish ``democracy`` in the Middle East, one thing is abundantly clear to many of us - the cruel, destructive, indiscriminate, and deliberate Israeli assault on the Lebanese Muslim population is unacceptable and a challenge to ALL Muslims. Eventually, this stupid and wanton act of wholesale murder will result in the collapse or restructuring of the so-called Sunni moderates of Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Indonesia, and Egypt. It will shift Turkey closer to the east, strengthen Iran, and alienate the Shia democracy of Iraq. Let`s see what develops.

Anil #604 - {``On the west, Lebanon will decided be outside and so is Turkey. Syria is isolated with Turkey Jordan and Iraq outside. It will either fall in line or be merged into a Lebanon-Syria entity.``}

Anil Sahib,
Very interesting analysis. Recently, there have been impressive demonstrations in both Ankara and Istanbul demanding that Turkey send the Israeli ambassador home and to sever ties with Israel. The rallying of people around the Lebanese victims of Israel`s furious and murderous attacks is a new phenomenon. This support crosses all boundaries of right/left, religious/secular, and even Shia/Sunni. I notice a real possibility of the simultaneous radicalization of moderates and moderation of the radicals as a result of this assault on the deep feelings of Muslims. The wholesale massacre of Muslims (and Jews) by Crusaders in 1099 eventually united the Muslims and led to the counter Crusade or Jihad that lasted 200 years and decidedly defeated the aggresors.

all of israel`s first wars in the region were with forces that were purely secular in nature......be it in syria, lebanon, palestine or egypt.........they were all called terrorist forces, also.......hence the core problem lies somewhere else......do keep in mind, prior to hamas and hezbollah, plo and lebanese were still considered terrorists by israel and usa. even though the forces, both in palestine and lebanon were secular in nature.....

in the long term, hopefully, all countries will realize that the solution lies in a political solution to end occupation of lands of other peoples.........i cannot see any other solution.......one way is to keep declaring the other person a terrorist and try to destroy him, without bringing in the concept of state terrorism...........that won`t work.........because state terrorism always breeds terrorism.......it doesn`t finish it.........

the way that will work, is for israel to give up the lebanese farms, golan heights, and agree to a palestinain state within 67 borders........this will work, and actually has quite a bit of support amongst israeli populaition..............israel will still get more land then it had in 47 and the palestinians will have lost 72% of their land that they had in 47........but they are willing to accept it.............

since all these conflicts are turning into a battle between state terrorism and individual terrorism. the question is which should be held responsible.........those on the side of state terrorism, consider it a valid force, which is trying hard to knock out individual terrorism. those against the state terrorism are looking at the individual forces as resistance forces, trying to fight the state terrorism.......

you guys are real silly see what is it that the hizb have won.

(1)Lebanon south of the litani river is evacuated. the only guys left are the few hizb
(2)the efforts of the jihadis is focussed there and in a few other places - away rfom Iraq and Arabia
(3)Allowing them survive is has resulted in a small propaganda victory to the Hizb. that is all. only verbal volleys - what has changed on the ground. They have lost a lot more than they gained.
(4)islamic sectarian killing in Iraq has only increased - sunnis on shites and shites on sunni. A true civil war.
(5) it has been shown that even with all the major resources at their beck and call the islamists are still backward and cannot even make a dent on israel and occupy a few sq inches of its land. What to talk about making it evacuate the land it occupied since 1948.
(6)the whole world can see the real courage of the islamists (i) they can carry out terror attacks on unsuspecting people (ii) they hide behind civilians woman and children and when dead cry like little babies (iii) the true namards of this world are the eunuchs of the islamic nations.

In the mean time the world has moved on. the islamists have been left behind by one more genration. The gap widens. Slowly but surely these guys wil be walled in. The islamists have to decide whether they want to be obscurantists and whithere away like the neandrethals, or not.

Re: # 605

Alrite zeemax what is you take on this buster! You have your head buried so deep inside a camel jocks arse you cannot smell the coffee. Please inform us of your views on this matter. The great anal-ey-sis is awaited from you. dont just point to some stuff you posted as replies here and there. gather that stuff together and post it in a cogent manner.

You are such a tired old trout you old queen!

#605 Hate Potty

Just when I think that you have already reached your all time low, you surprise me and delve lower!

The problem with wishy-washy sneaky sassy Pakistani male-lassies is that they come from a small rump of a country but are unable to shake off the grandiose vision of a romantic past which never really existed. And now that the reality stares them in face, as they get kicked around under military boots, ridden harder than any unfortunate donkey ever did - and as their cowardice allows no room for even feeble, fake, and futile protestations to their true oppressors, they lunge out at whatever they can lunge out at while praying fervently that their rears will still not get mauled!

They lash out at their minorities.

They lash out at the ``Biharis``.

They lash out at their women - their favorite objects for the douche-bagging pastime!

And when fake anonymity covers their asses - even Indians.

The only problem is that their country still remains a rump - small in size.

And size matters!