Godot August 12, 2006
8/20/06
Iranian Jewish Hospital ready to admit Palestinians for medical treatment
Tehran, Aug 20, IRNA-The Association of the Iranian Jewish community and management of Tehran-based Jewish hospital `Sepir` said on Sunday that the hospital is ready to admit Palestinians wounded by Israeli regime for medical treatment.

In reaction to a letter to that effect, Majlis Speaker, Gholam-Ali Haddad-Adel, said in the formal session of the parliament on Sunday that the letter showed that Iranian Jewish community supports human rights of the Palestinian people.
``The Jews never support criminal acts of the Zionist regime,`` Haddad-Adel said thanking the letter of solidarity of Iranian Jews to the oppressed Palestinians
Looks like a modern-day Nero is presiding over Chowk...fiddling while Chowk burns.
The Ba Ba Black sheep, the tota-mainas, the monkeys & the Langoors from the Bhonkan-house school system & chhachoondars ensconsed in where-the-sun-never-shines of the gora...and crooning:
``This is the colony which I love to live & die
The place is warm`ncomfy; in gora-bum I lie``
Let the show begin
Neturei Karta rabbi to Iran newspaper: Israel will cease to exist
Rabbi David Weiss says: Israel was established in the name of Judaism but is impure and Godless
Dudi Cohen
Neturei Karta rabbi to Iran newspaper: Israel will cease to exist
In an interview with official Iranian news agency IRNA, Rabbi David Weiss, of the Neturei Karta movement, said ``Israel was established in the name of Judaism but is impure and Godless. We are sure that it will cease to exist.``
Neturei Karta is a small group of Ultra-Orthodox Jews who reject all forms of Zionism and oppose the existence of that state of Israel. This stems from their belief that Israel can only truly be reestablished with the coming of the Messiah and, subsequently, that any state of Israel prior to this exists in violation of divine will.
Anti-Zionist Rabbis
Neturei Karta in Iran: Zionists use Holocaust / Roee Nahmias
In statements to Iranian radio, locals, anti-Zionist rabbis circulated their ideas against Israel. ‘We came to Teheran to clarify that Israel does not represent all Jews,` said one of visiting rabbis
Full Story
In an interview with an IRNA journalist, in New York, Rabbi Weiss stated that ``We don`t know how much blood will be shed until the state of Israel will cease to exist, but we pray to the Creator that it will happen with the minimum amount of loss and bloodshed.``
According to Weiss, ``The creation of the state of Israel does not conform to Jewish law and, actually, is contrary to it. Jewish rabbis around the world fear to express their opinions because of the intimidating atmosphere creating by the Zionists.``
Weiss addressed UN Security Council resolution 1701 and said: ``I oppose this decision because it does not touch upon the demands of the Lebanese or Palestinian people.``
``We believe that the day is close at hand when Israel will lose its strength. The Torah says that whatever exists in opposition to divine will cannot continue. As I understand it, things are changing every day and we are sure that Israel will cease to exist.``
`Problem today is Zionism
Weiss discussed Israel`s weakening hand in the war on terror and said: ``In 1967, if you would have said anything about giving away part of the Gaza Strip to Palestinians, people would have killed you. Now we see that, after more than fifty years, Israel is trying to defeat Palestinian resistance, but is not succeeding.``
Regarding the demographic problem, he said that ``The Muslim population in Israel is growing rapidly and, in the upcoming years, most of the state will be Muslim.``
``As long as Olmert and his government are weakening, so much the better, but we would prefer a general revolution in Israel. Olmert expected a miracle but Lebanon showed him the opposite. In the Torah it says that an illegal government of Jews is considered a revolt against God and, therefore, God will not help them,`` he continued.
Weiss was asked what solution he suggests to Muslims, Christians and Jews in order to live in peace and security, side by side. In response, he answered: ``We and the Muslims lived side by side for hundreds of years with no problem. At that time, there was no UN and no human rights. The problem today is not religion, but rather Zionism. Zionism takes advantage of religion and sees all of its opponents as anti-Semitic.``
``The solution is for Muslims to invest primarily in global PR. Muslims must show the world that, in the past, Muslims and Jews lived side by side with no problem.``
http://hammeroftruth.com/2006/08/08/george-galloway-vs-sky-news/
Also read George Galloway`s response to US Senate on Iraq Oil for Food on bbc.co.uk
and Robert Fisk ….
The Real Reason the British Should be Frightened
How London`s Terror Scare Looks From Beirut
Beirut.
When my electricity returned at around 3am yesterday, I turned on the BBC World Service television. There were a series of powerful explosions which shook the house--just as they vibrated across all of Beirut--as the latest Israeli air raids blasted over the city. And then up came the World Service headline: ``Terror Plot``. Terror what, I asked myself? And there was my favorite cop, Paul Stephenson, explaining how my favorite police force--the ones who bravely executed an innocent young Brazilian on the Tube, taking 30 seconds to fire six bullets into him--had saved the lives of hundreds of innocent civilians from suicide bombers on airliners.
I`m sure our readers will join me in watching how many of the suspects--or ``British-born Muslims`` as the BBC defined them in its special form of ``soft`` racism (they are surely Muslim Britons or British Muslims, are they not?)--are still in custody in a couple of weeks` time.
And I`m sure it`s quite by chance that the lads in blue chose yesterday--with anger at Lord Blair of Kut al-Amara`s shameful failure over Lebanon at its peak--to save the world. After all, it`s scarcely three years since the other great Terror Plot had British armored vehicles surrounding Heathrow on the very day--again quite by chance, of course--that hundreds of thousands of Britons were demonstrating against Lord Blair`s intended invasion of Iraq.
So I sat on the carpet in my living room and watched all these heavily armed chaps at Heathrow protecting the British people from annihilation and then on came President George Bush to tell us that we were all fighting ``Islamic fascism``. There were more thumps in the darkness across Beirut where an awful lot of people are suffering from terror--although I can assure George W that while the pilots of the aircraft dropping bombs across the city in which I have lived for 30 years may or may not be fascists, they are definitely not Islamic.
And there, of course, was the same old problem. To protect the British people--and the American people--from ``Islamic terror``, we must have lots and lots of heavily armed policemen and soldiers and plainclothes police and endless departments of anti-terrorism, homeland security and other more sordid folk like the American torturers--some of them sadistic women--at Abu Ghraib and Baghram and Guantanamo. Yet the only way to protect ourselves from the real violence which may--and probably will--be visited upon us, is to deal, morally, with courage and with justice, with the tragedy of Lebanon and ``Palestine`` and Iraq and Afghanistan. And this we will not do.
I would, frankly, love to have Paul Stephenson out in Beirut to counter a little terror in my part of the world--Hizbollah terror and Israeli terror. But this, of course, is something that Paul and his lads don`t have the spittle for. It`s one thing to sound off about the alleged iniquities of alleged suspects of an alleged plot to create alleged terror--quite another to deal with the causes of that terror and to do so in the face of great danger.
I was amused to see that Bush--just before my electricity was cut off again--still mendaciously tells us that the ``terrorists`` hate us because of ``our freedoms``. Not because we support the Israelis who have massacred refugee columns, fired into Red Cross ambulances and slaughtered more than 1,000 Lebanese civilians--here indeed are crimes for Paul Stephenson to investigate--but because they hate our ``freedoms``.
And I notice with despair that our journalists again suck on the hind tit of authority, quoting endless (and anonymous) ``security sources`` without once challenging their information or the timing of Paul`s ``terror plot`` discoveries or the nature of the details--somehow, ``fizzy drinks bottles`` doesn`t quite work for me--nor the reasons why, if this whole panjandrum is correct, anyone would want to carry out such atrocities. We are told that the arrested men are Muslims. Now isn`t that interesting? Muslims. This means that many of them--or their families--originally come from south-west Asia and the Middle East, from the area that encompasses Afghanistan, Iraq, ``Palestine`` and Lebanon.
In the old days, chaps like Paul used to pull out a map when faced with folk of different origins or religion or indeed different names. Indeed, if Paul Stephenson takes a school atlas, he`ll notice that there are an awful lot of violent problems and injustice and suffering and--a speciality, it seems, of the Metropolitan Police--of death in the area from which the families of these ``Muslims`` come.
Could there be a connection, I wonder? Dare we look for a motive for the crime, or rather the ``alleged crime``? The Met used to be pretty good at looking for motives. But not, of course, in the ``war on terror``, where--if he really searched for real motives--my favorite policeman would swiftly be back on the beat as Constable Paul Stephenson.
Take yesterday morning. On day 31of the Israeli version of the ``war on terror``--a conflict to which Paul and the lads in blue apparently subscribe by proxy--an Israeli aircraft blew up the only remaining bridge to the Syrian frontier in northern Lebanon, in the mountainous and beautiful Akka district above the Mediterranean. With their usual sensitivity, the pilots who bombed the bridge--no terrorists they, mark you--chose to destroy the bridge when ordinary cars were crossing. So they massacred the 12 civilians who happened to be on the bridge. In the real world, we call that a war crime. Indeed, it`s a crime worthy of the attention of Paul and his lads. But alas, Stephenson`s job is to frighten the British people, not to stop the crimes that are the real reason for the British to be frightened.
Personally, I`m all for arresting criminals, be they of the ``Islamic fascist`` variety or the Bin Laden variety or the Israeli variety--their warriors of the air really should be arrested next time they drop into Heathrow--or the American variety (Abu Ghraib cum laude) and indeed of the kind that blow out the brains of Tube train passengers. But I don`t think Paul Stephenson is. I think he huffs and he puffs but I do not think he stands for law and order. He works for the Ministry of Fear which, by its very nature, is not interested in motives or injustice. And I have to say, watching his performance before the next power cut last night, I thought he was doing a pretty good job for his masters.
Robert Fisk is a reporter for The Independent and author of Pity the Nation. He is also a contributor to CounterPunch`s collection, The Politics of Anti-Semitism. Fisk`s new book is The Conquest of the Middle East.
And nonetheless people power backed by UNSC managed to get Syria out of Lebanon.
A protest of upto 1 mln. versus what Hezbollah (200k?) brought onto the streets.
I figure since the term ``Cedar Revolution`` was fashioned by the U.S., they would have had some greater strategy other than Israel ``losing`` to Hezbollah. Were their Lebanese ``vassals`` (i.e those who particpated in the Cedar Revolution) nothing more than lams to the slaughter? The only thing that remains to be seen now is whether the peacekeeping force will do anytihng to Israel`s advantage.
Also, do not mouth everyone else at me.
[How? As Syrian influence decreased in Lebanon, that marked the beginnings of decreasing Syrian influence and an opportunity to actually weakening Hezbollah. The hole ``Revolution`` thing even had the whole people power dimension to it. What greater opportunity for a breakthrough could the ``West`` have asked for, short of all their wishes coming true? ]
The ``Revolution`` notwithstanding, the Hezbollah was the real power in Lebanon. They controlled everything to the extent that the Lebanese army was incapable (also unwilling - it is 40% shia) of doing anything to them (by every account) without massive external help. Read up a little. They run South Lebanon, and have a huge army dug in there.
Don`t mouth Lebanese foreign ministry explanations on tv. Siniora is a puppet in Hezbollah`s hands. Everybody knows this but the commies and the muslims who are always friendly to each other except when one of them is in power. Because then, they invariably oppress the other.
by Ben Shapiro
What happened? There are many reasons Israel did not finish off Hezbollah. It underestimated Hezbollah`s capabilities. It overestimated its own capabilities. But most of all, Israel did what it has done in varying degrees since its inception: It mis-defined its enemy. Israel, afraid of defining its enemy in ideological terms, fell into the trap of defining it in military terms. Israel`s enemies, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert stated in a speech to the Israeli Parliament (Knesset) on July 16, 2006, were those who ``challenged [Israel`s] sovereignty,`` those ``radical, terrorist and violent elements`` interested in ``sabotaging the life of the entire region and placing its stability at risk.`` Even though Israeli Muslims rallied throughout the war in support of Hezbollah, even though Israeli Arab parties openly opposed Israeli self-defense, even though Arab party members have visited with Hezbollah and announced their support for terrorism in the
past, the Israeli government refuses to define its enemies in ideological
terms.
Israel`s decision to define the Israeli-Arab conflict as a ``war on terror`` rather than a ``war on Islamo-fascism`` doomed Israel to failure from the start in the Lebanese engagement. What distinguishes Israel from its enemies, according to the Israeli government, is its unwillingness to kill civilians. Terrorists engage in terrorism (a term which has no formal international definition); Israelis invariably engage in targeted strikes designed to minimize civilian casualties.
This is nonsense. What distinguishes Israel from its enemies is
the fact that Israel fights for liberal democracy, while its enemies fight
for sharia law and the subjugation of all non-Muslims. Yes, Israel`s code of
morality proscribes superfluous killing -- but defining superfluous killing
in war is a difficult task at best. In today`s world, civilized nations
attempt to draw a bright line between civilians and military. For centuries,
however, military forces have been integrated with civilian support
structures. The bright-line distinction between civilian and military simply
does not exist -- it was obliterated long ago.
The question in modern war, therefore, is how much can be accomplished
through occupation, and how much must be accomplished through simple
military force. If a substantial portion of the civilian population does not
support your enemies, there is no utility in or moral justification for
killing civilians. If a substantial portion of the population intensely
supports your enemies, conversely, you must destroy the civilian support
base. During World War II, we did not merely kill Japanese on battlefields
in the Pacific -- we firebombed dozens of Japanese cities, including Tokyo,
and then dropped the A-bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Japan could not be
subdued if its civilian support system remained standing. Occupation is far
simpler once the civilian populace has been quieted.
Israel, however, declined to take such drastic measures. Wide-ranging and
hard-hitting airstrikes were vetoed, as was a large-scale ground invasion.
Israel certainly knew that Lebanese civilians throughout the south offered
aid and support to Hezbollah, but heavily bombing such sites would have
destroyed Israel`s foolishly drawn distinction between ``us`` and ``them.``
Israel certainly knew that the Muslim Lebanese would never welcome them as
liberators; a thousand years of Muslim anti-Semitism precludes that. But
attacking Hezbollah`s civilian support sites would have turned Israel`s ``war
on terror`` into a ``war on Islamo-fascism`` -- a war Israel does not want to
fight. Israel had to eliminate Hezbollah`s civilian support network in
southern Lebanon -- but that was precisely what Israel was unwilling to do.
Israel lost because Israel blinded itself to the necessities of war. America
must learn from Israel`s failure.
Ben Shapiro, 21, is a graduate of UCLA and a student at Harvard
Law School. He is also the author of the recently published ``Porn
Generation: How Social Liberalism Is Corrupting Our Future`` as well as the
national best seller ``Brainwashed: How Universities Indoctrinate America`s
Youth.`` To find out more about Ben Shapiro and read features by other
Creators Syndicate writers and cartoonists, visit the Creators Syndicate Web
page at www.creators.com.
COPYRIGHT 2006 CREATORS SYNDICATE, INC.
Impact of a Nation on 20th century America
Site of the new Nation of Islam Study Group in Tuscaloosa, Ala.
(FinalCall.com) - Monday through Friday, Maurice Muhammad is a magistrate with the city of Tuscaloosa, Alabama. Commonly known as a judge, he handles arraignments, traffic court and often night court.
On weekends, his time belongs to the Nation of Islam and in the city off Interstate 20 and 59, the graduate of Miles Law School is the minister of Natin of Islam Study Group in Tuscaloosa where they have just opened a new mosque to spread the teachings of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad.
“The community where the mosque is located is called Shack town and if you saw it you would understand why. Min. Maurice is bringing new life to this area. There are churches on every corner and for the past 20-25 years nothing has been done,” said community activist Timothy Robinson.
“I work with the Brothers in the streets and this will bring and breed new life in the community. This is one of the biggest drug and most violent areas of the city even though there’s a church everywhere.”
The new mosque opened last month to much fanfare when this desolate part of the city began to see the repair of an abandoned building. The work being done not only attracted neighbors, but it also attracted the attention of Sara Bruyn Jones, a religion reporter for the Tuscaloosa News. Her story landed on the cover of the religion section of the paper, May 28.
She interviewed community members and other religious leaders who were happy the new mosque was coming to their city.
Community activist S.T. Dyes told The Final Call, “This is bringing hope and inspiration to young Black wayward men. The mosque is a structure to find our lost people. They are lost from their heritage and don’t seem to have a sense of purpose.”
“We wanted to centralize and grow,” explained Min. Maurice. This building used to be a convenience store and a beauty salon. It sits in the middle of the community. We approached the owner about leasing it.”
“He told me that he couldn’t keep tenants in it because they’re always getting robbed. I knew this was the place for us. We started renovating and then produced a flyer, ‘Will A Man Rob God?’ The community has welcomed us and word is spreading that the Nation of Islam is here.”
The new building can hold nearly 100 people. “We’re also looking to open a café and bookstore too,” said Min. Maurice. “The rear has the potential of being a laundromat.”
Min. Maurice is a former assistant minister, protocol director and Fruit of Islam captain. He brings experience, dedication and commitment to this new endeavor and has worked with Central Alabama Islamic Conference and the Muslim American Society.
As a magistrate, he also goes into the community and talks about the law. Min. Maurice visits schools and community associations, and has visited over 11 prisons in Alabama and toured death row at Donaldson State Institution with National Prison Minister Abdullah Muhammad.
“People seem to be amazed to see a young Black man doing this job. As a Muslim, I see the need for our people to have the Life-Giving Teachings of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad. Most of our crime is Black-on-Black. Our people are perishing for the lack of knowledge,” Min. Maurice said.
National Spokesman for the Honorable Minister Farrakhan, Minister Jamil Muhammad told The Final Call, “This is a natural incremental growth over the past 12 years. I always knew that Tuscaloosa would be a strong presence in the south. We’re about to see the city prosper.”
regarding some posts, has chowk staff gone blind?
``No, I think the Lebanese people did - when they let the Hezbollah militants attain complete control over their ``sovereign`` nation. The Hezbollah was calling the shots in Lebanon long before the Israelis attacked.``
How? As Syrian influence decreased in Lebanon, that marked the beginnings of decreasing Syrian influence and an opportunity to actually weakening Hezbollah. The whole ``Revolution`` thing even had the whole people power dimension to it. What greater opportunity for a breakthrough could the ``West`` have asked for, short of all their wishes coming true?
Singlehandedly defending their motherland against the vilest species to walk this Earth.
Salutes to these brave ppl ... All they need to do is now to encourage demographic
changes in their favour. The truce forced on them, is also hopefully, going to tell them
to let their non-jewish friends `help` them in their fight.
Iran today has 46 Billion USD in annual oil revenues alone. No wonder they are able to
provide some of the most sophisticated rockets and missiles to the Hijabullah. But if
history is anything to go by, the blessed jews will torment the paed0phile followers for a
long long time to come.
May the average Jewish family size double. Amen ;)
[So you don`t think the West just washed away the advantages they gained during the Cedar Revolution? ]
No, I think the Lebanese people did - when they let the Hezbollah militants attain complete control over their ``sovereign`` nation. The Hezbollah was calling the shots in Lebanon long before the Israelis attacked.
[Krishna Ji,
You have convinced me with facts, logic, and honest truth:)
East, West, North, or South
None can ever match your mouth
North, South, East, or West
India`s always the best
Sara JahaaN se achcha HindostaaN hamara. :) ]
Sarcasm is the last resort of the impotent.
15 Aug 2006 14:05:35 GMT
By Alaa Shahine
BEIRUT, Aug 15 (Reuters) - Bulldozers began removing hills of rubble in Beirut`s southern suburb on Tuesday as Hizbollah teams surveyed the damage and contacted residents to compensate them for the property destroyed during the war with Israel.
Hizbollah leader Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah has said the guerrilla group would immediately start repairing bomb-damaged homes and pay a year`s rent and other costs to help the owners of about 15,000 destroyed homes across the country.
``We know that Sayyed never says a word without making good on it. Hizbollah told us to log our details with them for compensation,`` said 46-year-old Adnan Mansour, standing in front of his destroyed home and two stores, where a soft drinks fridge and an Iranian flag only remain.
``Thank God we are okay. Money comes and goes,`` said Mansour, his hands and clothes covered with dust. His son Abdel-Rahman stood beside him, wrapping himself with Hizbollah`s yellow flag.
Their home was bombed on Sunday in the last Israeli raid on the Shi`ite Muslim suburb before a U.N.-brokered truce to end the 34-day war took effect the following day. Smoke was still rising from another building nearby, hit in the same strike.
Scores of people sifted with bare hands through slabs of concrete where their homes and businesses once stood, salvaging vacuum cleaners, fridges, computers and family photo albums.
Hizbollah fighters, armed with assault rifles and holding walkie-talkies around their hips manned roadblocks leading to an area that once housed the group`s headquarters and main offices flattened by repeated Israeli raids.
``This (reconstruction) workshop starts now. We are at the service of everybody to provide suitable housing and suitable furniture,`` Sayyed Hashem Safieddin, head of Hizbollah`s Executive Council, told reporters during a tour in the area.
While many Shi`ites appear to support Hizbollah, some other Lebanese blame the group for dragging their country into a devastating war that killed more than 1,100 people, mostly civilians, and cost billions of dollars in damages.
At least 157 Israelis also died in the conflict.
SERVICES NETWORK
Hizbollah, backed by Iran and Syria, maintains a network of charitable medical, social and educational institutions across impoverished Shi`ite-dominated areas, long neglected by the central government in Beirut.
One of its institutions is Jihad al-Binaa (Holy Struggle for Construction) which rebuilt scores of homes in the south, damaged during previous fighting between Hizbollah and Israel.
The group, which ignited the war after capturing two Israeli soldiers in a cross-border raid, also pays monthly salaries to the families of slain or wounded fighters and civilians.
``The support for Hizbollah lies on two pillars, the (military) resistance and the social services,`` said Amal Saad- Ghorayeb, a political analyst who wrote a book on Hizbollah.
``Hizbollah fills the void that the state should have filled. It protects the people and provides for their well-being. It considers the social services as part of the resistance.``
The group maintains liaison officers in Beirut`s suburb as well as villages in southern and eastern Lebanon to report the residents` needs to the relevant social or medical institutions.
``We feel their presence among us,`` said Hayam Ashour, 44, who fled her bombed-out home in the border village of Shakra to the western part of Beirut.
Jihad al-Binaa rebuilt her house in 1996, and she sends her children and ill father to a Hizbollah-run clinic, where they receive treatment for modest fees.
``We are waiting for them to rebuild our home now,`` she said. ``If it wasn`t for the resistance, we would have left our homes and never returned. We are more loyal to them than ever.``
What EVERYONE is talking about.
Three thrilling reports.
http://www.tcsdaily.com/article.aspx?id=081406GW
Why Israel Lost
http://english.bna.bh/?ID=48854
Israel lost its unbeatable legendary army, says German General
AR2006081300719.html?nav=rss_print/asection``>
www.washingtonpost.com
`The Best Guerrilla Force in the World`
Analysts Attribute Hezbollah`s Resilience to Zeal, Secrecy and Iranian Funding
Indian air force pilots are better than the American Air Force pilots. ..
Facts, my dear Salim, facts. Try them sometime. ``}
Krishna Ji,
You have convinced me with facts, logic, and honest truth:)
East, West, North, or South
None can ever match your mouth
North, South, East, or West
India`s always the best
Sara JahaaN se achcha HindostaaN hamara. :)
``Then as a ``sovereign nation``, if they lob missiles over the Israeli border, and cross the border to kill/kidnap Israeli soldiers, then they have a ``god-given right`` to get royally fcucked as a result. ``
So you don`t think the West just washed away the advantages they gained during the Cedar Revolution?
Are you taking your medication for your mental problems? How`s your cat? Pakistan zindabad!
[The truth is that the Lebanese people are as modern, secular and liberal as any in the world... even if they weren`t, their sovereignty is a god given right protected by the United Nations Human Right Charter.... ]
Then as a ``sovereign nation``, if they lob missiles over the Israeli border, and cross the border to kill/kidnap Israeli soldiers, then they have a ``god-given right`` to get royally fcucked as a result.
Go Jews!
The truth is that the Lebanese people are as modern, secular and liberal as any in the world... even if they weren`t, their sovereignty is a god given right protected by the United Nations Human Right Charter....
While I, having admired Israel for many of the reasons enumerated, might have agreed with this article a few years ago, I don`t think given what has happened in Lebanon it is possible to condone this...
I do not mean to demean Indian pilot or American Pilots. It was hanicapped exercise more close combat which is not that common. As I read Americans were guarding airbase and kafir were intruders. And in close simulated combat india were scoring and they flew air machines at high and low levels and tactics was reasonable.
This situation will not happen as USA Pilots will have superior numbers always and if they had not put off beyond visual radars Indian plane would have been intercepted by American fired missiles and destroyed. The combat was not indicative what will be result as American missiles would have shot Indian Migs and Su-30. Unreasonable constraints gave reasonable results. American pilots must always be depending on superior Tech airmachines and detecting and and destroying enemy airmachines 100 miles away.
Zeemax is great fighter patriot but he should develop restarint before accusing auther being Quadini. If I remember correctly Mr. Godot has provocative style of writing and it makes person to think like this article or earlier comparison of our country and India and he has bad habit of stating truth harshly, like shaving without water and it hurts. Like in reffered article article he stated in his way that India has left behind and we are slumbering etc. Right but one should same thing differently with sweet coating. Some time I feel he is straight forward and blunt as some time we pakistanis have developed habit of closing eyes and not to see and register any thing and then we massage content to fit our thinking.
In this article Mr. Godot has clearly shown intelluctual, mental retardness and economic backwards of greater Muslim people. What I like he is not moderate( who want to white wash problems), some how keep bad things carpet but he pulls carpet and brings out dirt in open and then who do not like real picture star say he is ``Quadani`` etc.
Mr. Godot please do your way as you are going to source of problems of Ummah and as person like you are going for source and so you are travelling against current which is hard and people along shore instead of helping are throwing rocks to hit you saying you are quadini, etc. ( normally to go source of problem you have to swim against current, so called moderate really try to avoid or band aid problems are useless and only cosmetic.).If Ummah is going to improve we need atraight talking people for Godot as many people like me understand but will not dare to say or write as we have to live in this world. The western domiciled Muslims thinking men and women should abandon moderation path ( which condone horrible things) and go for truth as they can not be harmed by despotic social and politicals rulers in in bad lands they govern. Let us hope in next 20 we will have local godots and we do not have to wait for local Godots so things change for better. With all problems also I will emphasize Karachi city is better than any place in India.
Let year has 1000 days and pakistan live for 1000 years. Subse pehela Pakistan, Pakistan Zindabad. Great liberation day and good day everybody.
I agree with you in that we all can learn from the Jews. They very much have an intrinsic zeal for survival and have over the centuries acquired the wisdom to make social, political, economic resources work for them in a financially beneficial way. From my experience with the Jews, they are extremely committed to work, family, and friends and also work very hard to accomplish success.
As for the Palestine/Israel issue, in my opinion it is the British who created an odd situation by promising Palestine to the Arabs and Israel to the Jews in exchange for their help in helping it to fight the Nazis in WWII. The problem with this equation was that the British had promised the same piece of land to two creeds. Now when the time to deliver came to pass, the British backed off and had the UN intervene to resolve this matter. The UN bifurcated the piece of land to divide it between the Jews and Arabs. Israelis accepted the piece of land and on 14-May-1948 they were a sovereign nation. The Arabs on the other hand wanted all of the land included that which is now Israel or nothing. Today, Israel is a nation because the prudence of its rulers and proponents and Palestine is but a nebulous diaspora.
We say that Israel/Palestinian conflict has a root cause and that is Israel`s atrocities afflicted over the Palestinians. I ask what is the root cause that led Israel to, in the first place, propagate that `injustice` as the Muslims call it? My point is that the blame game must end, and the road to peace paved.
Where I disagree with you is when you say that Hamas needs to disarm itself,
(inferred) unconditionally. At that, by your argument, I say that then Israel, too, needs to disarm. I am of the opinion that a nation must possess military might, but also must be responsible to only and only use force when absolutely necessary to do so. And force against an unarmed civilian population must NEVER, and can NEVER, be used or justified. With that said, I am also of the opinion that the United States and Israel must join the International Criminal Court, ICC if they are sincerely righteous and true to their calling of being peace and justice to the world.
The UN, the US and the world can not dodge reality by consciously wearing blinders. We do not need wars, we do not need innocent civilians killed, we do not want an Osama, a Hitler, a Saddam, we do not want Mosques bombed in Pakistan, we do not want trains blowing up in India, we do not need violence anywhere in the world against innocent civilians whether it be Israelis killing innocent Palestinians or Palestinians killing innocent Jews.
Peace!
wiseguyin,
I am very aware of the conspiracy theory put forward by incredulous IAF analysts as well as some in the western press that the US fighters intentionally lost to obtain funding for better jets. But I have also read pretty sober analysis by American analysts that said that a higher degree of computer literacy as well as better quality (academically) recruits is what enabled the IAF to perform better (because nowadays, that`s as important as your motor skills if you are flying a state of the art fly-by-wire supersonic jet). Looking at the quality of high school education in America, that is very easy to believe.
Also, appearances are deceptive. Remember, the diminutive Gurkha was the most feared fighter in all of WWII. All it takes is a belief in yourself.
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Krishna,
I would not really go by what the US officers say about IAF. Even if in praise. There are
quite a lot of factors that go into what is uttered. Remember that from the USAF officers`
POV, Indians are not the only audience for what he says. More specifically, if the air
force bureaucracy in that country wants more funding for the F-18 programme, it might
as well try to scare the Senate by reports like these.
Just to put things in perspective, I personally know people in the IAF. There is no
question that these guys are good. But let us NEVER for even one second think that we
are the best. I hate complacency.
Salim,
Regarding soiled dhotis. Bhai, we Hindus dont have a tradition of killing in the name of
religion. I hope it will change soon. We, the ones who have awakened, are trying every
thing that we can to inculcate the hatred for the `other`, in my people. But you must
understand, Islam has a headstart of around 1400 years on us. And as someone who
has an elder first cousin in the special forces, I also know the mettle of my people.
After thousands of years, we have come together as a people. Give us some time.
[It is exactly your type of attitude that I find disappointing among many good Indians on this site - you are taking ``my enemy`s enemy`` logic too far. ]
No. Israel is India`s friend and ally in this war against evil.
[Regardless of how ``cowardly`` you consider the Hezbollah fighters, please consider the terrorizing impact of an M-1 tank as it rolls over the hill and heads for you, while F16s are bombing you around the clock, and Apache choppers are ready to gun you down, as you take aim with your anti-tank weapon to destroy the mammoth vehicle. All this while you are outnumbered almost six to one by heavily-armed, well-protected soldiers in your own country. ]
Consider you are sitting inside one of those tanks and then running over one of the thousands of pre-prepared ant-tank mines, or the terrorizing impact of a Hizbullah terrorist popping out of a unseen tunnel than the Israeli jets cannot see/cannot bomb and shooting one of the most advanced anti-tank missiles at you. It`s terrifying. Especially when you do not have the certitude of the 72 whoores waiting.
[If the Hindus had been in the Hezbollah`s shoes there would have been a lot of soiled dhotis being washed in the Litani River. :)]
Is that why the Pakis take a beating from us every time and spoil their salwars? :)
Indian commandoes are demonstrably the best in the world. Check this article out: Indian special forces team beat US, SA, UK and France in the macho-men competition
Indian air force pilots are better than the American Air Force pilots. Check this article in The Christian Monitor: Indian Air Force, in war games, gives US a run
Facts, my dear Salim, facts. Try them sometime.
Burpinder
If you do not agree with me at all what I have to say, it doesn’t mean you open your disagreement with me with “you idiot,” then resort to any profanity you can think of.
Summary of my article: Jews exercise power in the world that’s disproportionate to their number. Israel is a very powerful country and the only way to deal with it is via dialogue. Throw away the arms and talk to them. They all are not bad and they listen. That to me is the only solution.
You may disagree with me, but that’s okay. People don’t have to agree with each other, but they don’t have to resort to insults either to prove their point of view is superior.
This board has proven the impossibility of a civil dialogue. It’s the microcosm Middle East. Here hatred is expressed via tongue-lashing, over there via guns, rockets and bombs. Peace doesn’t stand a chance.
Hamid
”godot won the war of words against zeemax”
Oh, oh! This would bring zeemax back foaming at the mouth! Embrace yourselves, Chowkies, for another round of your mother this, your sister that!
”innocent civilians like hamidm suffered the most”
That’s so unfortunate. Decency has no place at Chowk. But don’t worry hamid, you are a gem, and not only in my books.
british awam rewarded general dyer by contributing gbp 20,000 to a campaign organised by a british newspaper which wanted to compensate general dyer for his dismissal by the indian government. i bet if some of these kallus for aparthied had been around then, they would have made a contribution to the campaign.
It is exactly your type of attitude that I find disappointing among many good Indians on this site - you are taking ``my enemy`s enemy`` logic too far. Regardless of how ``cowardly`` you consider the Hezbollah fighters, please consider the terrorizing impact of an M-1 tank as it rolls over the hill and heads for you, while F16s are bombing you around the clock, and Apache choppers are ready to gun you down, as you take aim with your anti-tank weapon to destroy the mammoth vehicle. All this while you are outnumbered almost six to one by heavily-armed, well-protected soldiers in your own country. If the Hindus had been in the Hezbollah`s shoes there would have been a lot of soiled dhotis being washed in the Litani River. :)
[Apparently not. A small bunch of Muslims whipped one of the best armies of the world.]
Only in the Muslim minds. Just like Pakistan won in Kargil.
The Hezbollah were getting their behinds whipped by the JEWS (yes, the Jews! the Jews! :) ), even while hiding behind their women and children and hollering like crybabies - WAAAAAAAH! WAAAAAAAH! MUUUUMMMY! WAAAAAAAH! See how they are using disproportionate force! WAAAAAH! WAAAAAH! See how they are killing our women and children! WAAAAAAAH! WAAAAAAAH!
And finally the world took pity. Nasrallah is hiding in a hole. His strongholds in South Beirut and Bekaa Valley are converted to fine dust, most of South Lebanon destroyed, most of Lebanese infrastructure destroyed.
Whipped the Israeli army? Yeah right!
In a few days, Hezbollah would refuse to disarm, and the war will start again. Only this time, noone will be able to stop Israel.
Go Jews!
:)
i have to hand it to chowk-staff. in the interest of fairness, they wanted to publish an article in favourite of israelis. however since israeli actions are indefensible, they got a clown to write the article with the intention that article would actually damage the case of israel rather than the other way around. and this article certainly does not disappoint. the author seems to be equating israeli actions in the m.e. to german actions in wwii. in addition, the author seems to also provide a justification for treatment of polish jews at the hands of germans (tauba tauba).
the author says that israelis can do whatever they please because they won the war fair and square and that they have a superior culture and that israelis produce way more scientists than palestinians do. same logic can also be used to justify german occupation of poland in wwii. germans conquered poland fair and square and germans have produced way more musicians, philosophers and scientists compared to the poles. and since germans were the lords and masters of poland, they could treat polish citizens including polish jews in a manner they saw fit (tauba tauba).
logic used in the article can also be applied to our history as well. massacre committed by general dyer at the jallianwala bagh can be be justified because it can be argued that england conquered sub-continent fair and square, that england has produced more artists of global repute and certainly more scientists than the residents of sub-continent.
i have heard of self loathing jews. this is a guess the desi answer. kind of funny - kallus for aparthied.
that is just too low....
........... i have no idea who won te war in lebanon, and frankly i don`t really care .......... but here on chowk, it is obvious that godot won the war of words against zeemax ........... but, as in any other war, innocent civilians like hamidm suffered the most
It`s very confusing to try and make sense of the Middle East on most days... as a child, I laughed the Arabs off as stupid for showing black areas on the map where the state of Israel resides- their idea of ``not recognising`` it. But I also sympathised with the Palestinian cause- Yasser Arafat was a darling of the Indian intelligentsia of the 80s remember?- though I frankly didn`t approve of their terrorist strategies. In recent times I had come to believe that the situation isn`t as black and white as most of the involved parties claim it is, and got more disgusted at America`s selfish stand on the imbroglio. For the past month or so, I have been completely disgusted with the excessive force and brutality with which the Israelis have ben striking at civilian targets, all ostensibly to get their two kidnapped soldiers back. Though I have no sympathy at all for the Hizb, a bunch of bloodthirsty fanatics if ever there was one .
Like I said, it`s all very confusing. And yet for the life of me, I cannot see why your opinion should matter any less than mine, hoever much I disagree with you. You and I have had our fiesty moments on other boards ( we are all susceptible to the chowk madness, believe me!) but in the end, you have your opinion and I have mine and if we disagree we do so civilliy, and occasionally a little more animatedly than usual.
But I don`t insult your religious affiliation or tell you to leave the board or vacate cyberspace or insult your teenage offspring or insinuate that deviant sex with close female relatives is par for the course in your family!
Also think you should desist from retaliating in kind. These obtuse personalities who resort to filthy personal abuse are beneath you, surely.
He is sounding more and more like our own Tahmed2 in his hypocrisy and double-speak. The man who called the ``war on terrorism`` a Crusade has now coined the phrase ``Islamic Fascism.`` Now, this can be quite confusing:
1. Christian militants with huge crosses on their chests are called Crusaders and not Christian Fascists.
2. In Lebanon, the heavily armed, murderous Maronite militias were called Phalangists and not Christian Fascists.
3. In the Occupied West Bank and Gaza, the heavily armed, murderous, gun-toting Israelis were called ``settlers,`` and not Jewish Fascists.
4. The bomb-exploding terrorists in Northern Ireland and Britain were called IRA and not Catholic Fascists.
5. The Armageddon hopeful, rampant cheerleaders of Israeli bombings on Lebanese civilians are called ``Evangelists,`` and not Christian Fundamental Fascists.
6. The violent right-wing Hindutva rapists/murderers/arsonists of the BJP/RSS/VHP/JS/BD/SP/SS are called participants in the world`s largest democracy and not Hindu Fascists.
7. The terrorist LTTE in SL are called ``Tigers`` and not Hindu Fascists.
8. The cross burning Ku Klux Klan in the US are called ``hate-mongers,`` and not white Christian Fascists.
9. The land grabbing, native people killing, murderous Spaniards and Portuguese were called ``Explorers,`` and not Christian Fascists.
10. The land-grabbing, exclusivist, violent, well-financed and well-armed founders of Israel were called Zionists, and not Jewish Fascists.
``Henceforth, the only war the Muslims can win against the others is peace. ``
Apparently not. A small bunch of Muslims whipped one of the best armies of the world. You might be in awe of the Isaelis/Jews but apparently some poor lebanese were not. One month of non-stop air bombing, artillery fire and they fire off 200 rockets into Israel as a parting shot. They stood up and thrashed the Israeli army. So much for smart bombs and billions of dollars of aid.
Sure you must be disappointed that YOUR masters took a beating. Maybe Hezb. was able to do so because they belived in themselves and not were mesmerized by jewsih power as some mentally colonised folks are.
Interesting article.
On a side note: It should not be forgotten that the Arab states did not give citizenship to the Palestinian refugees. Very little was done to improve the conditions of the Palestinians in camps located in Lebanon and Jordan.
No wonder so many have written off Pakistanis as illiterate, incapable and a waste of space.
An apology to the readers of Chowk would go a long way - and I see that Godot has already expressed one. It`s an honorable thing to do and takes nothing away from a person - on the contrary it enhances stature.
To All Decent People Out There...
Make a note of it. This is precisely what a barking stray dog does when not paid attention to:
``Okay piss off. Go jump in a lke or get run over by a garbage truck. I`m not going to wait around for you, or your rest of kin.``

#118 by echoboom on August 14, 2006 6:01am PT
Godot:116
Mohtram Janaab Patrick Masih Sahib pataa nahiN kUb sey aap kaa intizaar farmaa rahay haiN.
Hajoor Faij-i Ganjoor kuchh politeness vahaaN bhhee phaink deiN. Phir baat hogee hUm ghareeboaN sey!
...................................................................................................................................
#40 by PM on August 13, 2006 1:21pm PT
Amazing! Some folks here are still taking the trouble to show the light of day to an idiot who isn`t aware of the fact that, as per UN law, occupation of land won in war is unlawful.
Just tell me Godot ... for the last time ... who and what made you write this drivel?
bulleye, 119
Would you like to include in your analysis my post #50 (here it is again):
Zeemax
I must apologize to you. I hate the slippery slope and have been struggling with myself not to take that road. Based on some of your posts I read, you are a very intelligent person. If you don’t like me for whatever reasons, I should not do a tit-for-tat. I don’t want to fall to a level where I begin to hate myself more than I hate my opponent. And I hate myself right now.
You have a right to express yourself about me in anyway you seem fit. I will not retaliate. And I apologize. I’m sure you parents are very decent folks and you come from a nice family.
I hate myself for writing to you what I wrote. Taking a high road is turning out to be far more elusive to me at Chowk than I thought. My apologies to you.
Your analysis is completely off. Pls go and explain your thesis to HP.
Thanks.
C`mon. Gooooo.
``Why don`t they answer my simple question?``
Because they don`t want to respond to the barking of a stray dog!
people fighting over israel and palestine (and lebanon) as if they were born there! quite amazing. having met enough arabs and israelis, i can say with quite a bit of certainity that they, for lack of a better phrase, don`t give a damn about pakistanis, pakistani-americans, american-pakistanis, canadian-pakistanis, pakistani-norweigians, or those pakistanis that are settled in the arctic (i am sure there are a few). israelis are pissed at pakistanis for not recognizing israel. and arabs are pissed at pakistanis for opposing them during the suez canal crisis.........israelis think a pakistani maulvi might nuke tel-aviv someday, and arabs think their pakistani drivers may run the new mercedes into a camel, someday..........
perhaps the discussion is sign of people`s own insecurities........those pakistanis in the usa, feeling insecure, hoping that the next wtc doesn`t go off, lest they and their kids become the target of their friendly caucasian neighbor`s dirty stares; stares, that uptil this time, the neighbor (and the pakistani-american, themselves) had reserved for the new black family who had just moved into their suburbian streets.........so they try to be more jewish than the jews and more israeli than the israelis........
while the pakistanis in pakistan are so fed up of being kicked around by everyone, including and specially their own government that they don`t give a damn anymore. all they want is for someone that has anything to do with them - even if it is the ignorant arab who only shares the same religion with them, but will abuse them at the airport counter when they try to apply for a visa - to kick some ass. any kind of ass. though it can be especially thrilling if it is jewish (or hindu) ass...........
so there you have it. following should give one a good idea of why pakistan has not progressed and will never progress. it has spent tens of thousands on educating a tiny elite, with the hope that this tiny group might amount to something and can then, maybe, pull the rest of the poor folk out of the mess. let`s see what intellectualy stimulating gems the best and brightest of pakistan are creating, now that they have reached their most powerful years of late 30s, 40s, and 50s.........
``Now get lost......Don`t ever come back or show your puny little ass again on Chowk.``
``Haha!!! You impotent runt, you think you own Chowk? I`ll be here blowing firecrackers up yours!....I thought this essay has put your underware on fire, but then I realized that fire was there but you were not wearing any underwear!``
``Answer my question asshole ...``
``Now, my question ... you go-dog .....``
``Please don`t waste your breath on this kutti ka pilla.``
``A. Son of a maatherchod
B. Son of a behenchod
C. Son of a rundi
D. Both A and B
E. All of the above
Go Hezbmaatherchod!!!``
``Abey kuttey key pilley ... jaa apni maan ki gaand mara ... ulloo ka patha ...``
``next of kin has been screwed through and proper by goras by now``
Mohtram Janaab Patrick Masih Sahib pataa nahiN kUb sey aap kaa intizaar farmaa rahay haiN.
Hajoor Faij-i Ganjoor kuchh politeness vahaaN bhhee phaink deiN. Phir baat hogee hUm ghareeboaN sey?
#40 by PM on August 13, 2006 1:21pm PT
Amazing! Some folks here are still taking the trouble to show the light of day to an idiot who isn`t aware of the fact that, as per UN law, occupation of land won in war is unlawful.
Yes but wher`re these Mirzais? Why don`t they answer my simple question?
Chowk Staff
What is your strategy behind not censoring filthy and abusive posts?
echo
``When nothing works--resort to politeness``..echoboom
If that’s the only option left because nothing else works, then isn’t it the best option? If all parties in the Middle East turn to politeness because nothing else has worked, you think the region will be better off or worse off than what it is today?
If politeness, to you, is “cowardliness” but brings peace, harmony and prosperity, and vulgarity, to you, is “bravery,” but brings violence, murders and mayhem, which option do you prefer?
Let this be your guiding light
``There shall be no cessation of hostilities as long as the enemy is occupying a single square inch of our territory``..Mujahid Nasrullah.
The enemy tries all tactics, wears many masks, and strikes many poses--but an enemy of Islam will always be an enemy of Muslims--until & unless it genuinely repents, atones, & vows never to act farangisque again.
Now I ask the same question from before.
what was his motive behind writing this drivel?
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``Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel``--G.K.Chesterton
and
``When nothing works--resort to politeness``..echoboom
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hamid
You give me hope that there`s some decency left at Chowk. You are right. I`m only ruining my vehicle by trying to run over a stray dog with my SUV. You made me feel better. Thanks.
Mirzais in Israel!
.................
Even today Ahmadis play significant role in the Israeli administration. By taking advantage of their Palestinian origin, their muslim-sounding names and by the ignorance of people about the true nature of Ahmadiyya Movement, they play the role of fifth columnists among the Palestinian muslims, protecting the interest of their Masters. For instance:
Musa Sarwar: The Incharge of Passport and ID Card section in the Ministry of Interior.
Abdullah Asad: `Raees Bait-ul-Tasaareekh` Incharge of the Dept which gives permission to build houses in Israel. No wonder Arab homes are every now and then being demolished. This man takes advantage of his Arab identity to inflitrate and perform his clandestine activities against arabs.
Ibrahim Asad: During 60s to 80s he was the Mossad agent in Germany but was deported when he was exposed. Now he is `Mufattish Fanni` Inspector of Schools for Arabs. In this capacity he controls the kind of education and research is being done in Arab Colleges and Universities inside Israel. He never allows such research which can elevate the Palestinians inside Israel.
Jama`at Ahmadiyya has special links with the Zionist state. Ahmadiyya Headquarter play host to the Jewish Dignitaries from Israel. (Khatme Nabuwat Magazine Vol. 9. No. 5, P.8)
During the crackdown on Arabs inside Israel, as soon as the ID cards show the place of residence is Kababeer, soldiers allow the bearer of the card to go free, saying: Let him go. This is our man.
I (Dr. A Odeh) have been a born Ahmadi, an unfortunate event over which I had no control. I had been very active in various official capacities in the community - President Khuddamul Ahmadiyya, Member Majlis-e-Shoora, President of Stockholm Jamaat and finally President of Jamaat Ahmadiyya of Sweden, a post which I held till I denounced Mirza Ghulam A Qadiani and Ahmadiyyat in 1989. Fa AlHamdolillah `ala zaalik. During my recent visit to Kababeer, I discovered some very startling things which I would like to share with my readers.
godot, godot, godot !
........... why have you fallen to such depths ! .............. just leave it alone .......... so what if the dog catches the car - what is he going to do with it ? ......... just visualize the poor animal with his teeth stuck in the rear tires while the car is going at sixty miles an hour - hope that makes you feel better :)
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allah o`akbar !
............ a rabbi and a priest went to a boxing match ..... the fighters entered the ring huffing and puffing and one of them proceeded to close his eyes and crossed himself ........ the rabbi turned to the priest and asked, ``what does that men``......... the priest said, ``not a darn thing if you don`t know how to fight !``
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One thing I learned from this experience at Chowk is that when it comes to Middle East, there is no ``high road.`` Vulgarity, abuse and emotions rule. The one who can deliver the lowest punch is considered the winner. There can be no win-win scenario. Israel has the stick and it will keep sticking it up the Palestanians. Hezbullus on this board have their tongues, Hezbullus in the Middle East have their guns. Peace with the jahils is out of the question. There will never be peace in Middle East.
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You have really gone bonkers! Please for your own sake, see a psychiatrist. You need urgent attention. You are capable of so much filth and then you have the audacity to talk about values you inculcated in your son. How proud your son will feel when he reads the stuff you have been posting here on chowk!
Regards
Read complete article here.
http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/1195
Stupidity Without Borders – The Alliance of Utopias
The 20th and the beginning of the 21st centuries have witnessed the most spectacular population growth in human history, most of it in Third World countries. The world’s population, estimated at 6.4 billion in 2006, grows by more than 70 million people per year. In sixty years, Brazil’s population has increased by 318 per cent; Ethiopia’s by 503 per cent.
``The last soldier to die
By Uri Misgav
The last Israel Defense Forces soldier to die before the cease-fire goes into effect will not know that he is the last. Nevertheless, it is possible that, in the split second that his life ends, he may just manage to feel some kind of vague, surprising discomfort.
Contrary to literary traditions, he will not particularly resemble the hero of Eric Maria Remarque`s novel ``All Quiet on the Western Front,`` who was killed a few hours before the cease-fire was declared, ending World War I. Remarque`s hero at least died without knowing that an agreement on the end of hostilities was being cobbled together behind his back. The last soldier to be die before the cease-fire goes into effect will die when the timing and conditions of the cessation of hostilities are already known to all.
There have been military confrontations in the past in which the sides made last-ditch efforts to improve their opening positions during negotiations. But the death of the last soldier before the cease-fire goes into effect will be a case that is both groundbreaking and very macabre - a case where the two sides made last-ditch efforts to come with improved positions to negotiations that have already ended.
The last soldier to die before the cease-fire goes into effect will be killed by an anti-tank missile, or a roadside bomb, or small-arms fire. It is possible that he will be a victim of ``friendly fire`` or will be run over by a tank that is driving in reverse. It can be expected that the public will receive notification of his death after slightly more time than is necessary. In the last few days of fighting in Lebanon, one gets the feeling that the daily quota of deaths is approved for publication at an extremely late hour, after the news broadcasts and the round of interviews on the major channels are all over.
There is a fairly high probability that the last soldier to die before the cease-fire goes into effect will be a reservist. That he will be part of that population that was mobilized as part of the emergency call-up order, about which Brigadier General Alon Friedman of the Northern Command said, following the fatal shelling at Kfar Giladi: ``These people take upon themselves risks when they come here,`` and also, ``We can`t build a bunker for every soldier.``
At this stage it is still not clear whether the last soldier to die before the cease-fire goes into effect will be spoken about according to another definition coined at the time by Friedman with regard to 12 other deaths - as being ``the price of learning`` - or whether he will simply die in an ordinary situation, disgustingly familiar, from which one can learn nothing.
It is possible that the last soldier to die before the cease-fire goes into effect will be the father of a young child. Over the past few days, the assumption has been raised - and not denied - that the operation for conquering the Litani River is meant to supply the people of Israel and their leaders with a ``victorious picture`` before the battles end. When the son of the last dead soldier grows up and asks one day why his father died, it will be possible to reply that his father was the silver platter on which the Jewish state was given a photo-op.``
www.haaretz.com
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several several posts later. . . thank you for responding to my post, politely. :)
like i said, i could see where you were trying to go with this. i just felt in reading what you wrote of the israelis that quite a bit of what they have achieved has been at the cost of the palestinians. i think war and violence are losing prospects not just for muslims alone, and again i see where you`re getting at in terms of ``progress.`` but i still feel that this article is missing something, and i`ll just leave it at that, because the purpose of writing an article at chowk is not so that everyone can say wah! and agree with it. unfortunately, sometimes the manner in which we disagree is really distasteful.
masadi
”Israel does not control its land, it controls other people`s land like a thief, hiding behind the pajamas of the big thug on the block, the USA.””
Okay, so Israel is a “thief” and people around it are innocent victims. Yeah, right, I can buy that argument!
And under whose shalwar you are hiding, masadi? Or you are out in open naked?
” That is defined as cowardice and criminal and not ``strength``.
So what is your idea of “strength”?
”Further the intellect all over the world recognizes the crimes of Israel and its thuggery.”
“Intellect all over the world”? Aren’t you going on a limb here? If you can point one finger, there are three fingers pointing back at you. I think you may know that.
” You understand propaganda as ``intellect``, I don`t and the world does not either.”
So you and the “world” are on the same page? People like me who want peace and no violence are stupid but you are the smart one!
”Strength is when a group of less than 5000 lightly armed can repulse the attacks of a near superpower in that region and force it to accept a ceasefire reluctantly.”
Yeah, okay, so an army of rag-tag “defeated” the US in Vietnam. Lets see if Hezbullu can get what they want: drive Israel into the sea!
”Strength is when millions in the occupied territories can live in debilitating poverty due to conditions created by Israel, decade after decade and still not lose hope in their cause and their ability to resist,”
My contention is that Arabs are more responsible for the current conditions of the Palestinians. You don’t agree. Okay.
”unlike the few AHs on here who have sold their souls for a few $$.”
“AHs,” masadi,? You have an intellectually cogent argument here! And how many “books” have you written so far? Who is reading them? My condolences to them.
I dont understand how people still indulge this guy, Zeemax...Also, how come CHOWK-STAFF is permitting this level of verbal filth....Not even a Public Warning?
Had an Indian written half as abusive posts as what Zeemax has written here and in the other board(about hamidm`s daughters), most Chowk-Pakistanis would have been out in full force by now, condeming him/her...But for a fellow Pakistani, its ok, i guess
SN
``I presented facts``
Okay, What are your facts. Here are my facts:
1. Israel controls the lands around its country.
2. Israel is powerful , both intellectually and physically (in terms of arms and what it can do with it) and you are not in either department.
3. Ummah is impotent, looking for its balls but can`t find it.
4. Israel tells the ummah to go suck a cucumber and the ummah says how long is rthe cucumber. >>>>
It took me less than 5 minutes to write a response, almost the length of your article to refute your so-called ``facts`` you presented in this piece you call an article in #3 . You never bothered to read it and/or were stumped by it so now you write this gibberish which is mere nonsense paraded as ``facts``. Israel does not control its land, it controls other people`s land like a thief, hiding behind the pajamas of the big thug on the block, the USA. That is defined as cowardice and criminal and not ``strength``. Further the intellect all over the world recognizes the crimes of Israel and its thuggery. You understand propaganda as ``intellect``, I don`t and the world does not either. Strength is when a group of less than 5000 lightly armed can repulse the attacks of a near superpower in that region and force it to accept a ceasefire reluctantly. Strength is when millions in the occupied territories can live in debilitating poverty due to conditions created by Israel, decade after decade and still not lose hope in their cause and their ability to resist, unlike the few AHs on here who have sold their souls for a few $$. That is strength and those 5000 and those millions in the Occupied Territoriesare not even a tiny fraction of what you describe as the ``ummah``.
echo
So which name works better for you, Hezbullu or Hezbgadha? Which one of these two names will frighten Israel?
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/article.php3?id=6461
Arutz Sheva - Israel National News
opinion: Policy of DisasterJared Israel
Aug 13, `06 / 19 Av 5766
The acceptance of this plan caps a policy of disaster that:
a) has seen Prime Minister Ehud Olmert woo intervention by foreign governments and the UN, which consistently encouraged Hizbullah`s Lebanon-backed anti-Israel terror;
.............READ ON!
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/article.php3?id=6461
lets not even bring up other jewish stereotypes:
Major Israeli Spy Operation Uncovered
Thursday, December 13 2001 @ 06:57 PM GMT
Carl Cameron Reports
_ _ _Now Fox News has learned some U.S. investigators believe that there are Israelis again very much engaged in spying in and on the U.S., who may have known things they didn`t tell us before September 11. Fox News correspondent Carl Cameron has details in the first of a four-part series.
CARL CAMERON, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Since September 11, more than 60 Israelis have been arrested or detained, either under the new patriot anti-terrorism law, or for immigration violations. A handful of active Israeli military were among those detained, according to investigators, who say some of the detainees also failed polygraph questions when asked about alleged surveillance activities against and in the United States.
There is no indication that the Israelis were involved in the 9-11 attacks, but investigators suspect that they Israelis may have gathered intelligence about the attacks in advance, and not shared it. A highly placed investigator said there are ``tie-ins.`` But when asked for details, he flatly refused to describe them, saying, ``evidence linking these Israelis to 9-11 is classified. I cannot tell you about evidence that has been gathered. It`s classified information.``
_ _ _ HUME: Carl, what about this question of advanced knowledge of what was going to happen on 9-11? How clear are investigators that some Israeli agents may have known something?
CAMERON: It`s very explosive information, obviously, and there`s a great deal of evidence that they say they have collected — none of it necessarily conclusive. It`s more when they put it all together. A bigger question, they say, is how could they not have know? Almost a direct quote.
HUME: Going into the fact that they were spying on some Arabs, right?
CAMERON: Correct.
HUME: All right, Carl, thanks very much.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,40684,00.html
Next Door to Mohammed Atta
Israeli agents were living in Florida and tailing the future death pilots – until their cover was blown.
by Oliver Schröm
Die Zeit
October 14, 2002
_ _ _According to the report, the Mossad agents were interested in the leader of the terrorists, Mohammed Atta and his key accomplice, Marwan al-Shehi. Both lived in Hamburg before they settled in Hollywood, Florida in order to plan the attacks. A Mossad team was also operating in the same town. The leader, Hanan Serfati, had rented several dwellings. ``One of Serfati`s apartments was located on the corner of 701st St. and 21st Ave. [sic] in Hollywood, right near the apartment of Atta and al-Shehi.``, French intelligence reported later. Everything indicates that the terrorists were constantly observed by the Israelis. The chief Israeli agent was staying right near the post office where the terrorists had a mailbox. The Mossad also had its sights on Atta`s accomplice Khalid al-Midhar, with whom the CIA was also familiar, but allowed to run free. The Mossad apparently warned their American counterparts several times about the terrorists, especially about al-Midhar. The American government later admitted that they had received such warnings prior to September 11. But at most that there were attacks planned against American installations outside the United States.
http://iraq-info.1accesshost.com/schrom.html
The White Van
Were Israelis Detained on Sept. 11 Spies?
June 21 — Millions saw the horrific images of the World Trade Center attacks, and those who saw them won`t forget them. But a New Jersey homemaker saw something that morning that prompted an investigation into five young Israelis and their possible connection to Israeli intelligence.
Maria, who asked us not to use her last name, had a view of the World Trade Center from her New Jersey apartment building. She remembers a neighbor calling her shortly after the first plane hit the towers.
She grabbed her binoculars and watched the destruction unfolding in lower Manhattan. But as she watched the disaster, something else caught her eye.
Maria says she saw three young men kneeling on the roof of a white van in the parking lot of her apartment building. ``They seemed to be taking a movie,`` Maria said.
_ _ _Plenty of Speculation
Since their arrest, plenty of speculation has swirled about the case, and what the five men were doing that morning. Eventually, The Forward, a respected Jewish newspaper in New York, reported the FBI concluded that two of the men were Israeli intelligence operatives.
Vince Cannistraro, a former chief of operations for counterterrorism with the CIA who is now a consultant for ABCNEWS, said federal authorities` interest in the case was heightened when some of the men`s names were found in a search of a national intelligence database.
Israeli Intelligence Connection?
According to Cannistraro, many people in the U.S. intelligence community believed that some of the men arrested were working for Israeli intelligence. Cannistraro said there was speculation as to whether Urban Moving had been ``set up or exploited for the purpose of launching an intelligence operation against radical Islamists in the area, particularly in the New Jersey-New York area.``
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/2020/DailyNews/2020_whitevan_020621.html
if i was a bigot, i would have wondered why jews needed to receive on a per capita basis, the highest aid amount in the world. bigot because european sources have told me that jews love money more than anything else and thats why they get american aid despite being the most powerful qaum to exist in the history of mankind. just imagine the difference this aid would make if it was spent on africans.
godot,
...... zeemax wants an answer ! ...... he asked, ``what made you write this article ?``............. i don`t understand why it is so difficult for muslims to accept the fact that one of them might actually have a little bit of common sense or intelligence ...... for example, the most common refrain that you hear from the likes of zeemax aout 9/11 are :`` how could poor muslims plan and carry off such a complex mission``.......... now you hear the same thing about lebanon .......... it is true that most of the ummah has yet to discover the joy of indoor plumbing, but some of us do own a brain ..........
......... so, if i may say so, you wrote this article because you actually think and are not blinded by hate, prejudice and religious dogma ............ i hope i am right
there are about 1.5 bn muslims. there are about 10 mn yehudis.
muslim dominated asia excluding china for about 1200 years. jews, well its not polite to go into their past nor is it cool given the treatment they received at the hands of their gora brothers.
muslims have dome of the rock, jews can see the dome of the rock sitting on top of the jewish kaaba.
i dont know about you but i know which one i would prefer to be were i given a choice.
Subroto
Unfortunately at Chowk, decency is considered a sign of weakness, as post #55 clearly says. I suppose if you want to live in peace and harmony with others you are weak and have no spine. Only those who curse at your mother and sister and who create mayhem and are ready to blow themselves up and kill innocent people are the stronger ones. Peace has no chance. Just go through the posts on this board and you know why you cannot be an optimist. Vulgarity and violence rule. They are the ``superior`` ones. Can you blame Israel?
Even the enemies are admitting it. It is all over.
But what about the goa-dog-pigs-monkeys; are they still living in daur-i-Jahilliyaa?
MidEast Sunday
http://64.27.65.50/themedialine/weekly.wma
MidEast Sunday:Hindsight Begins for Israeli Military
How Israel Lost the Shia of Lebanon
Amid the current conflict and mutual enmity raging between the predominantly Shia Hizbullah and the state of Israel, it should be remembered that both the first and second time Israel tried to create a “buffer zone” in south Lebanon, in 1978 and then again in 1982, Israeli forces were overwhelmingly welcomed by Shia villagers and political leaders alike, many of whom had come to regard Yassir Arafat’s Fatah guerrillas as an outright menace to the delicate socio-economic fabric of the area.
Indeed, in 1982, some Shias spontaneously poured into the streets to shower the invading army with rice and sweets. Some Israeli soldiers even married Shia women.
The hated Fatahland would be no more, thanks to the Israelis.
Thus, when Arafat and his men did in fact largely evacuate Lebanon under armed multinational protection in August 1982, the scourge of a “state within a state,” long borne by the Shia, really did seem to be at an end. Jabil Amal, the Arabic name for the mainly, though not exclusively, Shia south, would finally be freed to address some of the deep depravation which the area had historically suffered from under the dual weight of Lebanon’s inequitable confessional system and the presence of Palestinian militias.
But this was not to be. The Israelis stayed, creating, in effect their own preferred state within a state, the mostly Christian South Lebanese Army (SLA). The Likud government under Menachem Began announced plans for diverting precious water resources from the south. Israeli produce immediately flooded the markets of Lebanon, effectively undermining the always-fragile agricultural economy of the area. Right-wing groups loudly trumpeted David Ben Gurion’s founding vision for a State of Israel as far as the Litani River (a marker which, to the horror of the Lebanese, now returns again under the auspices of yet another “buffer zone” for Israel)
As the now deputy Prime Minister Shimon Peres acknowledged long ago, these aspects, together with a stubborn occupation that quickly descended into brutality, occasional arrogance and outright mismanagement, all effectively “unleashed” the wrath of the Shia upon the Israelis.
Sadly, this narrative would repeat itself only a few years later in the West Bank and Gaza in the first Intifadah: As Israeli scholar Benny Morris points out, a formerly quiescent population, even welcoming in the case of the Shia, eventually decided to mobilize itself, and radically so, motivated in large part by living conditions which had become only bleaker with time.
And indeed, that is precisely what happened in Lebanon, though at a far faster clip.
It is true that Hizbullah was formed almost immediately in the wake of the Israeli invasion of 1982. But that is only part of the story. For Hizbullah was also formed because the main Shia political party, Amal, had joined a national unity government with the Christians and other sects in an effort to stabilize the country in the wake of the Israeli invasion and the ongoing Civil War. Indeed, Hizbullah would later, in 1985, be officially formed by leaders of the breakaway Islamic Amal of 1982.
Leaders of the mainline Amal party, however, to the consternation of Islamic Amal, worked behind the scenes with the Israelis in efforts to uproot PLO guerrillas, developing a sort of working relationship with Israeli forces over the first six months of occupation.
No matter the growing anger of the radicals, Amal was the overwhelmingly dominant Shia force in 1982 and for years afterwards – not Hizbullah. Mainly secular, but bolstered by the huge popularity of its deceased clerical founder, Imam Musa Sadr, Amal might have carried the day for the Israelis.
But as an American UN officer at the time, Professor Richard Norton, wrote, “The IDF and the Israeli security services operating in the South mistook the alienation of the Shia from the Palestinians as positive evidence for the possibility of establishing close formal ties between Israel and the Shia community…Clumsy efforts to co-opt Amal...failed. While the Southern leadership did not eschew a quiet dialogue with Israeli personnel, they were both unwilling and unable to allow themselves to follow the… prototype of open clientship.”
As the occupation wore on, and as Israel began to fight a nascent insurgency in late 1983, propelled mainly by Hizbullah, the Israeli response of overwhelming force and sometimes-systematic brutality only served to further alienate the Lebanese Shia, Amal and indeed many Lebanese across the confessional spectrum.
Thus, Israel and the architect of the invasion of 1982, Ariel Sharon, won the day in the south – Arafat was expelled and Fatah rocket attacks largely ceased.
But in its place, Israel had sown the seeds for a far more powerful foe, one which would, 18 years later, lay claim to having been the only Arab force ever to defeat Israel on the battlefield of occupation.
That a small band of 30 or so young, Lebanese fundamentalists – including Hassan Nasrallah - would rise to this level of prominence and power is not simply due to the original or ongoing efforts of Iran. Indeed, at this moment of great danger in the region and perhaps the world, Israel and its primary ally the United States must look within to understand some of the deep roots of the current conflict, not to mention some of the tragically squandered lost opportunities.
Nicholas Noe is completing his dissertation at Cambridge University`s Centre for International Relations and is the founder of the Beirut-based Mideastwire.com, a news translation service covering the Arabic and Persian media
I think that has got to be one of the finest responses on Chowk. Being around Chowk for some time I remember the time when Godot totally lost it too. Godot it is admirable to read that you were able to recognise and admit that weakness. I am falling into that trap on unplugged and your words are a timely reminder to walk away.
masadi
``I presented facts``
Okay, What are your facts. Here are my facts:
1. Israel controls the lands around its country.
2. Israel is powerful , both intellectually and physically (in terms of arms and what it can do with it) and you are not in either department.
3. Ummah is impotent, looking for its balls but can`t find it.
4. Israel tells the ummah to go suck a cucumber and the ummah says how long is rthe cucumber.
masadi
And behind whose pajama`s are you hiding? Hezbullu`s?
``The author of this article, if it can be called that``
I stopped reading your post after that. You are not worth getting engaged in a meaningful discussion. >>>
Of course, once stumped by the facts take the nearest exit like a damn coward, or hide behind the big bully`s pajamas- a tactic perfected by the Israelis.
Zeemax
And why do you suppose I will answer your question when you are abusive? I am trying to understand why are you so abusive. Does being abusive make you feel superior? Does it make you feel your point of view is better? Does hurling gundee gundee galian at your opponent make you a winner and makes the readers understand that you are intellectually superior and that your view is the right view? What what what???
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Yes you don`t want to read this VRV, Bye. You`re my friend. Let me deal with this asshole.
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Notwithstanding the dual between you and others here, I have some respect for your Columbian degree. I haven`t read your work before but I read this and felt that is was very very short, not just length but analysis.
Israelis had some contributions like drip irrigation. They had an indomitable spirit in the the face of enormous adversity. With all shers in her surrounds are tamed, courtsey the US, they have relative safety now. They had right to exist but no right to pounce on others. They are power drunk and blinded by the mad support of the US.
The big beast in our minds is this Muslim world. There is nothing like that. Some people dream about such creature. Ask, if Yemen want to merge with KSA. Similary Afghanistan with Pakistan. Never. Natioan states are here to stay. Instead of promoting this reality of nationalism, people tend to think about this mirage, Muslim world.
Japan has no standing as Christain nation but was part of this US bloc. It`s the economic develoment that qualifies the nations not the religious tag. I am tired of reading this Islamic stuff on Chowk.
Zeemax
I will, once you tell me what is it that you are trying to achieve with your abusive language.
Zeemax
By using abusive language what are you hoping to achieve?
Yes. gundee gundee gaaliyan ....
These guys will auction their sisters and daughters, but are scared of gundee gundee gaaliyan ..
My conclusion is, that these are ``Hyenas`` ... both Hamidm and godot ...
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POLITENESS--is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
hamidm2 & tahmed32 also resort to such `` Jaaee-yay hUm aap sey naheeN boltay, HaaN!``
``aap bUrRay voh haiN``
it is called ``ATTvaTTi KhaTTvaTTi ley kay pUrR jaana``..
this guy in Karachi, where some people resorted to politeness whenever they ran short of ghairat arms & money, once was seen running helter skelter through the streets panting & pale, scared.
Someone stopped him and asked him to calm down..and asked what happened.
Between catching his breath he said, `` VahaaN chowk pUR kuchh gUnday bdtameez loag abbajaan ko maar rahay haiN. gUndee gUndee gaaliaaN dey rahay haiN. ....bUrRee mushkil sey meiN IZZAT bachaa kar bhaaGaa hooN``.
hamid
My message is lost. Silly me did not expect the abuse I received. I was hoping for an intense but a civilized discussion. Alas! Right now I am sipping Merlot sitting in a very nice and quiet suburb and thanking my lucky stars. America zindabad!
Godot, I just ask you one question ... what made you write this article?
the great ones continue on their march unflustered.
``avaaz-i saGaaN kUm na krad....``
Iran, Iraq discuss oil exchange deal
Published: Sunday, 13 August, 2006, 11:51 AM Doha Time
TEHRAN: Iranian and Iraqi oil ministers yesterday discussed details of a plan for Tehran to provide refined products in return for Iraqi crude, the state news agency Irna reported.
In July 2005, Iran signed a deal to buy 150,000 bpd of Basra light crude in return for petrol, heating oil and kerosene.
Iraq’s oil minister Hussein al-Shahristani, who is on a four-day visit to fellow Opec member Iran, and his counterpart Kazem Vaziri-Hamaneh also discussed co-operation in exploiting jointly-shared oil fields, Irna said.
Iraq, which has the world’s third largest proven reserves of crude, has faced chronic shortages of refined products ever since the US-led invasion of 2003, as insurgents have targeted its oil infrastructure, bringing production from the northern fields around Kirkuk to a virtual standstill.
The Iraqi government has been forced to import refined products from a number of neighboring countries.
Relations between Iraq and Iran, which were at war from 1980-88 when Saddam Hussain was in power in Baghdad, have improved markedly since a Shia-led government took power in Iraq this year. – AFP
Zeemax
I must apologize to you. I hate the slippery slope and have been struggling with myself not to take that road. Based on some of your posts I read, you are a very intelligent person. If you don’t like me for whatever reasons, I should not do a tit-for-tat. I don’t want to fall to a level where I begin to hate myself more than I hate my opponent. And I hate myself right now.
You have a right to express yourself about me in anyway you seem fit. I will not retaliate. And I apologize. I’m sure you parents are very decent folks and you come from a nice family.
I hate myself for writing to you what I wrote. Taking a high road is turning out to be far more elusive to me at Chowk than I thought. My apologies to you.
I think you`re drunk by now. I also believe you`re going through a divorce so it`s ok.
I won`t attack you anymore. Just get lost, and take this idiot with you.
Thanks.
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godot,
don`t go down that slippery slope with zeemax - you won`t be able to keep up with him !................
......... you are right....... i order to have lasting peace, the arabs (and all muslims including those in papua new guniea and iran) have to recognize israel`s right to exist and the palestinians have to get their own independent state ......... sounds simple
............. however, i feel that even if the palestinian problem was resolved, the muslims would find some other reason to raise mayhem ......... i think there is something in those dates that they eat during ramadhan .........
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godot,
good job ! .......... but it is hard for some to see tha light because of where there head is
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Thanks!
The last refuge of a scoundrel is..POLITENESS!
GoIdiot go!
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That’s from own personal experience. It’s probably naiveté to you because either you don’t have any personal experience with them, or your experience is contrary to mine.
-- Quite a few of my aquaintances and friends are Jewish - I`ve had 4 or 5 Jewish classmates and had 2 Jewish neighbours with whom I have kept my friendships - I`ve also encountered what can only be described as ``racist and extremist fanatical`` Jewish people - which only goes to show that no people can be described as such exclusively.
But personal experience has no bearing on policies being conducted in that region. For that we have to get information which is accurate.
”The problem is the same as the one when the Europeans took the lands by force from the Native Americans and brutally went about the process of crushing, humiliating and exterminating them.”
The history of Europeans in America against the Indians and Jews in Middle East against the Palestinians is not the same, hence that analogy is false.
-- This is not an argument or analysis. Why is it false? Europeans took Native American lands. Israel took Palestinean land. Where do you see the difference? Did one group have more of a right to it than another? What makes the Israeli position of subjugating and degrading a people (who are fighting for their homeland) correct?
``The question is why has Israel become so brutal towards the Palestinians, and most importantly, how to stop Israel’s aggression and help the Palestinians? To me the solution begins with giving Israel recognition and stopping the violence by removing the arms from the groups bent on a war with Israel.``
-- One of the most successful media misprepresentations has been in the portrayal of how ``magnanimus`` and ``accomodating`` Israel has been in the peace talks (at Oslo and at Camp David). Talks, by definition, are supposed to accomodate all parties. Otherwise there is no point in having them. To force a ``settlement`` that had 75 or so neighborhoods that were disjointed and isolated by Israeli-controlled territory, maintaining Israeli control over all Palestine, to continue usurping more land to build settlements while ``negotiating`` - these are hardly going to create an atmosphere conducive to stopping violence.
The future of Israel does not lie in Europe or in the US. The security of Israel is linked to the accomodation of the Palestineans. Israel is geographically, linguistically and culturally Middle Eastern (not withstanding the large immigrant populations from Eastern Europe, Russia and North Africa. Therefore Israel needs to live in that neighborhood by accomodation. Similarly, the Palestineans and other parties have to accomodate Israel. But you cannot have accomodation when you treat a defeated people like animals.
”Their land was taken from them by force.”
So were many lands throughout history. How many instances of injustice and grievances would you like to dig up from history?
-- Using this same logic (that might is right) then you would not object - in fact you might even support - Kashmiris taking back Kashmir by force, or Cypriots taking back the Turkish bit of Cyprus by force, or the Tamils taking Sri Lanka by force.
”In the end they were exterminated as independent tribes and people.”
That’s because they were few in numbers. That’s not the case with the Palestinians. Israel cannot annihilate them.
-- Small numbers have absolutely NOTHING to do with military success. A small island like Britain was able to conquer and establish an empire in much of the known world. A small country like Israel can whip the collective Arab nations because it is armed with the most advanced weapons systems in the world today. The power leverage technology can give an army is a force multiplier many times over.
”Hezbollah is clearly not about to go the same way without a fight.”
That is precisely the problem. It’s Hezbulla that’s the problem, not Israel
-- So using this same logic, it was the benighted Native Americans who were the problem, not the Europeans.
I would comment in detail on this, but not on this idiot`s board. Ask me elsewhere and we`ll dicuss it. That`s a good question.
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South asia, inspite of being dirt poor with bad HDI - has managed to produce more... that says volumes about the arabs today...
only on chowk do you find kallus supporting aparthied. even contempt is wasted on them::
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/04/AR2006030401057.html
Israeli Arabs See Lesson in Hamas Victory
The Arab families who remained in their villages during Israel`s 1948 war of independence account for roughly 20 percent of the Jewish state`s 6 million people. Though citizens of Israel, they face discrimination in immigration policy, land ownership, education and public employment, either explicitly or in the application of the law.
http://66.249.93.104/search?q=cache:BfDz-SuWW2EJ:www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml%3FitemNo%3D256023%26contrassID%3D2%26subContrassID%3D4%26sbSubContrassID%3D0%26listSrc%3DY+%22Half+a+democracy%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1
...Once Israel became an occupying state, it ceased to be a democracy. There is no such thing: Israel`s claims about its democratic character are empty boasts. Just as there is no such thing as a partial pregnancy, there is no such thing as a partial democracy, either.
No democracy exists only as far as a particular territorial line within the country, and no democracy is reserved exclusively for a particular religion or nationality. In a truly democratic regime, everyone enjoys his freedoms and rights in equal measure. That is not the case in Israel.
More than 10 million people live between the Mediterranean and the Jordan River, in the state and in its occupied territories. The separation between the occupied areas and the state is anachronistic: Israel has existed for far more years with the occupation than without it, and the territories are an integral part of it, with all this entails. Some 3.5 million Palestinians have been living under a brutal, rigorous military occupation for well over three decades.
...Nor can anyone serious maintain that the 1.3 million Arabs who live in Israel are equal citizens. With the exception of the right to vote and the right to stand for office, which was almost taken from some of their representatives this month, there is hardly a sphere in which they can be said to be citizens of a democracy. They are discriminated against in every realm of life, and they are excluded from the democratic public discourse.
What`s left? Democracy exists only for the state`s (proven) Jewish residents. That is, for about 5.3 million people, half of the 10.6 million people who live here. They are the only intended beneficiaries of the rule of law, freedom of expression, civic freedoms, equality before the law and a fair and just legal system.
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Sherdil
“The issue is not whether the Jews are the ``nicest and fairest people`` ... (which incidently is a statement amazing in it`s naivete).”
That’s from own personal experience. It’s probably naiveté to you because either you don’t have any personal experience with them, or your experience is contrary to mine.
”The problem is the same as the one when the Europeans took the lands by force from the Native Americans and brutally went about the process of crushing, humiliating and exterminating them.”
The history of Europeans in America against the Indians and Jews in Middle East against the Palestinians is not the same, hence that analogy is false.
”Israel seems to be following in the same footsteps”
The question is why has Israel become so brutal towards the Palestinians, and most importantly, how to stop Israel’s aggression and help the Palestinians? To me the solution begins with giving Israel recognition and stopping the violence by removing the arms from the groups bent on a war with Israel.
”Their land was taken from them by force.”
So were many lands throughout history. How many instances of injustice and grievances would you like to dig up from history?
”In the end they were exterminated as independent tribes and people.”
That’s because they were few in numbers. That’s not the case with the Palestinians. Israel cannot annihilate them.
”Hezbollah is clearly not about to go the same way without a fight.”
That is precisely the problem. It’s Hezbulla that’s the problem, not Israel.
That depends on How do you define victory... If your idea of victory means creating more suicide bombers in your neighbourhood then well .. No comments..
Man, when I re-read your article, it smacks of hypocrisy... you wrote ``The only way to deal with them is to recognize Israel’s right to exist and throw away the deadly weapons pointing towards it. ``... It`s israel who is armed to teeth not it`s neighbours..... Israel is the sole nuclear power in the region
Authority & Responsibility should go hand in hand... What you term as hightened sense of survival is sheer hawkish behaviour of fanatic IDF establishment enlightened by the vision of greater israel....
Kjindani
This essay is not about who started the 1967 war. Israel won. Period.
Subroto
The thickheaded runts don’t understand the language of peace, as amply demonstrated on this board. Let them live their lives in misery, bitterness and rot in a fool’s paradise. The world is moving on.
Bulleye
1. Okay, because I said “condemned in Islamic world” rather than just “the world” then what I said is not a fact!
2. My opinion is Israel is not solely responsible for Palestinians’ ghetto-like existence and it’s also Arabs fault. Your opinion is that Israel is solely responsible. These are opinions not facts.
3. Yes, a majority of Muslims in most Muslim dominated countries live with the ideology of 7th century. If it weren’t true, its followers will not be hatching plans to blowup airplanes and justifying their tyranny in religious terms.
4. Yes, the Arab despots are keeping the bogey of Israel alive, and the US keeping those despots in power. So?
5. The Jews are religio-ethnic group. If you don’t agree with it then fine. Fewest in number in terms of other “major” civilizations, such as Christians, Hindus, Chinese, and of course the Muslims.
6. Israel is not “occupying” anything. They won the land in wars. Tough luck.
7. Yes, the Muslims are relegated to the bottom of totem pole. How many scientists, artists, and literary figures worth their salt have they produced? How many universities and institutes of higher learning do they have which are ranked among the best in the world? What economic goods do they produce? What’s their share of in world economy? What power do they command at UN, or in fact anywhere? The only thing they specialize in is ruttafication of the Koran and a claim that what a great and glorious past they had a thousand years ago.
Zeemax
Ah! I see the impotent runt is back using the vocabulary spoken at his home! Unlike your miserable existence, I have a life and am not glued to Chowk 24/7. I have better things to do then interact with impotent runts like you.
Godot, I`ve read more balanced articles and posts from you - this however defies comprehension. I literally had to blink a few times: did I really read this right? I had to ask myself.
The issue is not whether the Jews are the ``nicest and fairest people`` ... (which incidently is a statement amazing in it`s naivete).
The problem is the same as the one when the Europeans took the lands by force from the Native Americans and brutally went about the process of crushing, humiliating and exterminating them. Israel seems to be following in the same footsteps. Examples of this are so wide spread and well documented that anyone can find them ...
Amos Perlmutter had this to say of Israeli policy in Foreign Affairs:
``... Sharon (being) the hatchet man whose dream it is to crush Palestinan nationalism and culture so they cease to exist as a people.``
There are confirmed reports of routine torture and violence on prisoners, so widespread that the London Sunday Times report called it a deliberate, sanctioned policy.
The Canadian Broadcasting network reported that the killings and dreadful beatings still do not give an accurate picture of Israeli repression or their goals - goals which have been expressed by Abba Eban, Sharon, Allon, and several others as ``... keeping the occupied territories while avoiding any responsibility for the population``. The statement made by Sharon also included this:``... to drive out and destroy any sign or element with an Arab national character, to bring about full Israeli control over their territories``.
Yuval Ne`eman urged the Knesset to ``establish a new order in Lebanon, which is geographically and historically an integral part of Eretz Yisrael`` ... and to ``integrate the strip south of the Litani into Israel`s development plans``.
Intimidation is widespread - Bir Zeit university is one of the favorite targets of the Israeli army where students and the Arab intelligentsia is routinely harrassed, physically degraded and intimidated. The Israeli army chief is on record as stating that ``the Palestinean people need to have it drilled into their minds and hearts that they are a defeated people and that they have to conduct themselves as a defeated people.``
An example: Refugees from the Israeli army`s excursion into Lebanon were not allowed to go into the bombed out ruins of what remained of their homes - water was gived to them on the ground so they had to ``lap it up like animals``.
Or read the press report of the 3 year old boy who was beaten with a club by a soldier because he threw an Israeli ID card to the floor - his mother who came to his rescue was shot. Nor is this an isolated case.
Workers going into Israel are routinely subjected to degradations and humiliatiations as a matter of course. They are not allowed to stay overnight in Israel ... some Israeli employers took to locking them in the factories at night (a practice that might be stopped now after several were burned to death in Tel Aviv when they couldn`t get out) other are kept in barbed wire cages - for example the Histadrut trade union.
Their land was taken from them by force. Just as land was taken from the Native Americans by force. The Native Americans did what anyone would do in the situation: they fought with everthing they had to keep their land, culture and way of life, and they did not have much in the way of weapons. In the end they were exterminated as independent tribes and people.
Hezbollah is clearly not about to go the same way without a fight.
Forget it. The head-khusra-kanjar has run away. My post#16 was a worthy rejoinder to this rascal but chowk-staff saw fit to remove it. Anyway it`s still available on request by e-mail to anyone who wants.
- pakistan is ranked roughly around 135th in the world in hdi. india is ranked around 127th or so...........now compare this to the arab countries.......
- palestine, itself is ranked 102 (ahead of all south asian countries, other than sri lanka)
- saudi arabia = 77
- uae = 47
- oman = 71
- egypt = 119
- syria = 106
- libya = 58
- algeria = 103
- morroco = 124
- jordan = 90
so on and so forth.........so, on average, both the oil producing and non-producing arab countries, though backwards in hdi, are on average ahead of south asia and sub-saharan africa and some other regions (and civilizations, if we use huntington`s demarcations).........certainly not how you seem to be describing and perceiving them...........
``To failure`s credit
By Gideon Levy
The bad (and predictable) news: Israel is going to come out of this war with the lower hand. The good (and surprising) news: This ringing failure could spell good tidings. If Israel had won the battles in an easy, sweeping victory of the kind Israelis prayed so much for, it would have caused enormous damage to Israel`s security policies. Another slam-bam win would have brought disaster upon us. Drugged with power, drunk with victory, we would have been tempted to implement our success in other arenas. Dangerous fire would have threatened the entire region and nobody knows what might have resulted.
On the other hand, the failure in this little war might teach us an important lesson for the future, and maybe influence us to change our ways and language, the language we speak to our neighbors with violence and force. The axiom that ``Israel cannot allow itself a defeat on the battlefield`` has already been exposed as a nonsensical cliche: Failure might not only help Israel greatly but, as a bonus, it might teach the Americans the important lesson that there is no point in pushing Israel into military adventures.
Since 1948`s war, Israel has only achieved one sweeping military victory on its own, in the Six-Day War. There is no way of imagining an easier and sweeter victory. Israel`s ``deterrent capability`` was restored - and in a big way - in a manner that was supposed to guarantee its security for many years. And what happened? Only six years went by and the most difficult war in Israeli history, the Yom Kippur War, took place. Hardly deterrence. On the contrary, the defeat in 1967 only pushed the Arab armies to try to restore their lost honor and they managed to do so in a very short time. Against an arrogant, complacent Israel enjoying the rotten fruits of that dizzying victory, the Syrian and Egyptian armies chalked up considerable achievements, and Israel understood the limits of its power. Maybe now, this war will also bring us back down to reality, where military force is only military force, and cannot guarantee everything. After all, we are constantly scoring ``victories`` and ``achievements`` against the Palestinians. And what comes of them? Deterrence? Have the Palestinians given up their dreams to be free people in their own country?
The IDF`s failure against Hezbollah is not a fateful defeat. Israel killed and absorbed casualties, but its existence or any part of its territory were not endangered for a moment. Our favorite phrase, ``an existential war`` is nothing more than another expression of the ridiculous pathos of this war, which from the start was a cursed war of choice.
Hezbollah did not capture territory from Israel and its defeat is tolerable even though it could have easily been avoided if we had not undertaken our foolish Lebanese adventure. It is not difficult to imagine what would have happened if Hezbollah had been defeated within a few days from the air, as promised from the start by the bragging of the heads of the IDF. The success would have made us insane. < b> The U.S. would have pushed us into a military clash with Syria and, drunk with victory, we might have been tempted. Iran might have been next. At the same time we would have dealt with the Palestinians: What went so easily in Lebanon, we would have been convinced, would be easily implemented from Jenin to Rafah. The result would have been an attempt to solve the Palestinian problem at its root by pounding, erasing, bombing and shelling.
Maybe all that won`t happen now because we have discovered first-hand that the IDF`s power is much more limited than we thought and were told. Our deterrent capacity might now work in the opposite direction. Israel, hopefully, will think twice before going into another dangerous military adventure. That is comforting news. On the other hand, it is true that there is the danger the IDF will want to restore its lost honor on the backs of the helpless Palestinians. It didn`t work in Bint Jbail, so we`ll show them in Nablus.
However, if we internalize the concept whereby what does not work by force will not work with more force, this war could bring us to the negotiating table. Seared by failure, maybe the IDF will be less enthusiastic to rush into battle. It is possible the political echelon will now understand that the response to the dangers facing Israel is not to be found in using more and more force; that the real response to the legitimate and just demands of the Palestinians is not another dozen Operation Defensive Shields, but in respecting their rights; that the real response to the Syrian threat is returning the Golan to its rightful owners, without delay; and that the response to the Iranian danger is dulling the hatred toward us in the Arab and Muslim world.
If indeed the war ends as it is ending, maybe more Israelis will ask themselves what we are killing and being killed for, what did we pound and get pounded for, and maybe they will understand that it was once again all for naught. Maybe the achievement of this war will be that the failure will be seared deeply into the consciousness, and Israel will take a new route, less violent and less bullying, because of the failure. In 1967, Ephraim Kishon wrote, ``sorry we won.`` This time it is almost possible to say, it`s good we did not win.``
www.haaretz.com
you are attempting to be more israeli than the israelis and more jewish than the jews. this is a common trait i have noticed amongst those whose exposure to the world is the us media. i would encourage you to read the israeli press, itself, which is not nearly as biased and non-factual as your comments......
to answer your question:
1. first of all, i have no idea where you got the idea that, ``the arabs attacked israel.`` could you quote your source. all these wars started when israel moved into palestinian land and pushed them out. so that is the original provocation. however, even exactly in the 67 war, following is what wikipedia states,
``When Egypt sent UN officials away from the Egyptian-Israeli border and increased its military activity near the border, and blocked access of the Strait of Tiran to Israeli ships, Israel launched a pre-emptive attack on Egypt`s airforce fearing an imminent attack by Egypt``
israel launched a pre-emptive strike. it was the same doctrine used by bush in iraq - pre-emptive strike........
2. how in the world can you win land through a war, ``fair and square.`` it is a contradiction. if india attacks pakistan and takes lahore, can it keep it since it got it, ``fair and square.`` using this logic usa can keep iraq, since it launched a pre-emptive strike and won the land fair and square....
3. the reason israel should go back to the 67 demarcation is for the following reasons:
- it is occupying other people`s land, which is illegal
- their are un resolutions asking it to (even though usa vetoes many of them)
- isreal itself, realizes this illegality and is willing to give back most (though not all) of these lands. hence, even ariel sharon`s stance is milder than yours, i.e. even he thinks israel should vacate them
- where in the world will the palestinians live, if isreal doesn`t give them a viable contigous piece of land
- israel will remain in a perpetual state of war with lebanon, syria and palestine if it keeps their lands occupied, in a fashion against un resolutions and ethical standards
one cannot occupy someone else`s land and then expect the other person to remain in a subjugated peace...............
1. ``Israel has been condemned for aggression against its neighbors throughout the Islamic world.``
it has been condemned throughout the whole world, by literally every country.....not just the islamic world.....not just for this aggression, but for so many earlier ones.......nearly on every issue, only the four or five countries i mentioned below, out of the whole world, support it.....this is why the usa has to keep vetoing all resolutions against israel, or israel keeps violating them.........
2. ``But is Israel entirely responsible for Palestinians’ ghetto-like existence?``
yes. since it is the one which created the ghetto in which the palestinians live. many of the arab, other than palestinians, may live in third world countries, but not in ghettos.....
3. ``keep their populace ignorant and locked in the 7th century``
this is a huge exxageration and rhetoric often used. no arab country is in the 7th century. no country in the world is in the 7th century. some parts of them maybe in the early 20th century, but not in the 7th. in fact quite a few of them, dubai, qatar, kuwait are at the cutting edges of the 21st century.......nearly everyone of them (other than yemen) are ranked much higher than pakistan (and india) on the UN`s human develpment index.....
4. ``keep the bogey of Israel breathing in order to divert the attention from their despotic and nauseating grip on power, ``
do you seriously think it palestine and not usa that is keeping sheikhs of saudi in power?
.....by far, the biggest despots are the one`s supported by the usa and they rely on the usa, not on the, ``bogey of palestine`` to remain in power. saddam was allied with the usa. mubarak is. as is king hussain of jordan. the saudi kings. the hassan family of morroco. the sabaah family of kuwait. the amir of qatar. sultan qubus of oman. sheikh mo of the uae, etc.......
infact the only countries that are not aligned with usa in the middle east are iran, palestine, iraq and (now) lebanon.......the four countries that have elected non-despots ruling them....
5. ``Being among the fewest in numbers as religio-ethnic group``
the jews are a religious group. certainly not an ethnic group. they come from so many ethnicities. and they are not amongst the fewest in numbers. they rank 12th out of a list of 22 or so major religions in the world, in numbers so they are in the middle.......for example zoarastrians rank far below them at 2.6 million.......sikhs are about at the same level as them at around 20 million........
6. ``The hostility to Israel, and by implication to the Jews, comes from the resentment and envy by those, mainly Arabs and other misguided Muslims,``
the hostitily comes from the fact that israel has occupied the lands of palestinians as well as the lands of syria and lebanon. this is why this hostility exists amongst arab christians also (many major us arab groups are headed by christians). the same jews, when living in europe weren`t resented by arabs. japenese, who are more successful than even israel, aren`t resented by arabs, since they haven`t occupied any of their lands......
7 .``Relegated to the bottom of the totem pole,``
could you highlight what criteria you are using? if we use the human development index, your comment certainly isn`t true. arabs are somewhere to the middle or above middle in comparison to other countries. there are 22 arab countries in the world. on average they rank much higher than south asian countries, and sub-saharan african countries. as well as bhuddhist and oriental countries. most of them are ranked higher than china. nearly all higher than india and nepal (and pakistan).
to give you an example, palestine is always ranked much higher on hdi than pakistan and india. do a quick check.........do south asians migrate to arab countries, or do arabs migrate to south asian countries......the middle eastern countries are filled with indian and pakistani and sri lankan immigrants.......how many arabs migrate to india and pakistan and line up to get their visas........that should give you an idea on who is at the bottom of the totem pole........
for the time being this is enough..........i will highlight the other inaccuracies in a later reply......however, this covers much of what you have written.......it doesn`t seem like you did much research.....and you need to be objective when you write such articles.......not emotional or politically motivated............
here is the u.n. resolution on `67 war. israel is violating this resolution because under this resolution israel is required to withdraw from occupied territories. remeber this fact because over the next few days, we will see goras on tv talking about resolution 1559 which recquires hizbullah to disarm.
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/d744b47860e5c97e85256c40005d01d6/7d35e1f729df491c85256ee700686136!OpenDocument
The Security Council,
Expressing its continuing concern with the grave situation in the Middle East,
Emphasizing the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war and the need to work for a just and lasting peace in which every State in the area can live in security,
Emphasizing further that all Member States in their acceptance of the Charter of the United Nations have undertaken a commitment to act in accordance with Article 2 of the Charter,
1. Affirms that the fulfilment of Charter principles requires the establishment of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East which should include the application of both the following principles:
(i) Withdrawal of Israel armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict;
(ii) Termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every State in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force;
2. Affirms further the necessity
(a) For guaranteeing freedom of navigation through international waterways in the area;
(b) For achieving a just settlement of the refugee problem;
(c) For guaranteeing the territorial inviolability and political independence of every State in the area, through measures including the establishment of demilitarized zones;
3. Requests the Secretary-General to designate a Special Representative to proceed to the Middle East to establish and maintain contacts with the States concerned in order to promote agreement and assist efforts to achieve a peaceful and accepted settlement in accordance with the provisions and principles in this resolution;
4. Requests the Secretary-General to report to the Security Council on the progress of the efforts of the Special Representative as soon as possible.
Excellent point but are the people willing to listen to the language of peace?
incredible that a website that claims to be credible would publish this half assed piece of garbage written by an ignoramus who i. deliberately spreads misinformation and ii. supports aparthied.
godot claims that israel was attacked by arabs in `67. bbc reports this a bit differently:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/middle_east/03/v3_ip_timeline/html/1967.stm
The 1967 War
``Mounting tensions between Israel and its Arab neighbours culminated in six days of hostilities starting on 5 June 1967 and ending on 11 June - six days which changed the face of the Middle East conflict.
Israel seized Gaza and the Sinai from Egypt in the south and the Golan Heights from Syria in the north. It also pushed Jordanian forces out of the West Bank and East Jerusalem.
Egypt`s powerful air force was put out of action on the first day of fighting when Israeli jets bombed it on the ground in a pre-emptive strike...``
btw israel launched an unprovoked attacked on egypt as a part of the suez campaign in `56 . so egypt was well within its right to respond in kind in `67 even if it had launched the attack instead of israel.
godot also says that since israel won the war, it can do whatever it pleases. by that logic, goras in s.africa had the right to impose aparthied because they had captured s.africa. the s.african analogy is apt here because residents of the territories occupied by israel dont have the rights of israeli citizens despite being ruled by israel. on top of that, israelis started sending goras settlers to occupied territories. these settlers which lived between palestinians had all the rights denied to palestinians. muslims in fact would prefer to see gaza and west bank becoming a part of israel because that would be the end of israel as jewish state. since israelis dont want that, they have started creating bantustans in occupied territories - a ploy that was also employed by goras in s.africa. palestinians obviously wont agree to this because people usually dont sign their own death warrants unless they are gora lovers like godot who apparently would gladly swallow zeher as long as it is served by goras.
otoh i might be wrong and godot actually might be a gora which might explains why he only eats french food.
incredible that a website that claims to be credible would publish this half assed piece of garbage written by an ignoramus who i. deliberately spreads misinformation and ii. supports aparthied.
godot claims the arabs attacked israel was attacked by arabs in `67. bbc reports this a bit differently:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/middle_east/03/v3_ip_timeline/html/1967.stm
The 1967 War
``Mounting tensions between Israel and its Arab neighbours culminated in six days of hostilities starting on 5 June 1967 and ending on 11 June - six days which changed the face of the Middle East conflict.
Israel seized Gaza and the Sinai from Egypt in the south and the Golan Heights from Syria in the north. It also pushed Jordanian forces out of the West Bank and East Jerusalem.
Egypt`s powerful air force was put out of action on the first day of fighting when Israeli jets bombed it on the ground in a pre-emptive strike...``
btw israel launched an unprovoked attacked on egypt as a part of the suez campaign in `56 . so egypt was well within its right to respond in kind in `67 even if it had launched the attack instead of israel.
godot also says that since israel won the war, it can do whatever it pleases. by that logic, goras in s.africa had the right to impose aparthied because they had captured s.africa. the s.african analogy is apt here because residents of the territories occupied by israel dont have the rights of israeli citizens despite being ruled by israel. on top of that, israelis started sending goras settlers to occupied territories. these settlers which lived between palestinians had all the rights denied to palestinians. muslims in fact would prefer to see gaza and west bank becoming a part of israel because that would be the end of israel as jewish state. since israelis dont want that, they have started creating bantustans in occupied territories - a ploy that was also employed by goras in s.africa. palestinians obviously wont agree to this because people usually dont sign their own death warrants unless they are gora lovers like godot who apparently would gladly swallow zeher as long as it is served by goras.
otoh i might be wrong and godot actually might be a gora which might explains why he only eats french food.
#13
And why should Israel go back to 1967 borders? The Arabs attacked Israel unprovoked and Israel won the war and the land fair and square. Why should Israel go back to 1967 demarcation?
Well, Mr. Godot i guess it`s time you get your facts correct. The 1967 war was started by Israel by violation of Syrian/Israeli Armistice agreement and when egypt moved it forces on border, israel Air force unleased a deadly preplanned attack decimating their airforce within hours...
I agree with the fact that Israel is a powerful country but morally they are not the righteous and chosen ones... Perhaps one of their biggest powers is the control of media and their ability to twist facts.... The world is made to believe that current conflict in Lebanon started with capture of 2 soldiers by lebanon but the fact is that Israel has captured 1000s of Lebanese illegally over number of years
P.S: I have nothing against Jews but what the state of Israel is doing in Lebanon is nothing but TERRORISM.
view this users filtered interacts
A very sensible article and a strong rejoinders to these former hindus ....
> And why should Israel go back to 1967 borders? The Arabs attacked Israel unprovoked
> and Israel won the war and the land fair and square. Why should Israel go back to 1967
> demarcation?
In the puki world view, if a moslem army loses in battle, it should be handed the lost lands
back, so they can have a `rematch` later. Will someone in the Indian establishment read
(& heed) this ?
If a muslim army wins then it should retain the land .... huh ..
bulleya:
``uptil the election of hamas, every party in palestine has recognized israel`s right to exist.``
so you mean to say that before getting elected even hamas recognised israel`s right to exist?
and what is nasrallah`s view about it? does he too believe in israels right to exist?
bulleye
``article, basically devoid of facts``
How? What is it stated in this article not a fact?
And why should Israel go back to 1967 borders? The Arabs attacked Israel unprovoked and Israel won the war and the land fair and square. Why should Israel go back to 1967 demarcation?
``The only way to deal with them is to recognize Israel’s right to exist``
this seems to be a great misconception amongst many in the usa.....the whole world has actually recognized israel`s right to exist, within its 67 borders. this is more than what israel was alloted in 47.......this includes the arab league, eu, pakistan, india, asia, africa etc. there are multiple un resolutions that support this........you maybe surprised to know that there are only four or five countries that oppose these resolutions, again and again: israel, usa, micronesia, marshall islands, and tuvalu........
the problem thus isn`t others recognizing israel`s right to exist. it is israel realizing others` right to exist. uptil the election of hamas, every party in palestine has recognized israel`s right to exist. it is only after israel refused to give even west bank and gaza, over fifty years that hamas came into power.........and eventually iran is now going in that direction also.......
``and throw away the deadly weapons pointing towards it.``
the only weapons pointed at israel are tiny rockets of hezbollah.........to the best of my knowledge, israel can hit most countries in the world with its nuclear missiles........there is a simple solution to this whole crisis that the world has proposed:
- israel returns shebaa farms to lebanon
- israel returns golan heights to syria
- israel returns gaza and west bank to palestinians and ends the occupation
- israel gives full control of east jerusalem to palestinians (even though there are un resolutions against west jerusalem also)
- the arab league recognizes israel
there are 39 un resolutions, related to this that have been votoed by usa, on behalf of israel!.......
zeemax
``What nonsense. Another qadiani?``
You just insulted and offended a very decent community of people. Shame on you, you impotent runt.
Wajahat
``This is most the aggarvatingly biased article...Pathetic, gutless and waste of webspace``
And what makes you think your opinion is not ``biased, pathetic, gutless and waste of webspace?
masadi
``The author of this article, if it can be called that``
I stopped reading your post after that. You are not worth getting engaged in a meaningful discussion.
parthaab
Their heads filled with proverbial rock and blind to reality as a bat in daylight, the only body part functioning on these people is their unclean tongues. You are absolutely correct. The message will never sink-in but it will hit them hard on the head. The posts attacking me proves you point.
notre-dame
``failure just hurts``
It indeed does. But it becomes a problem for the world when the failed advocate killing, violence, and mayhem as a remedy.
ana
``you`re looking at such a one-sided view of history here. perhaps there is something hidden here that i`m missing?``
There is no one sided view. How does the so called ``Islamic civilization`` deal with the Jews is the point. Does it deal with them with peace or with war? War and violence has no prospects for the Muslims and it`s a losing proposition for them.
first of all, did you really write this article?
on the one hand, i can see where you`re trying to go with this. muslims getting out of a victim mentality, (one that some zionists themselves capitalize on when it comes to their ``survival``) finding some common ground for peace , but on the other hand, really, you cannot apply much of what you`ve said to all the palestinians. this is way much more than resentment and envy on their part. i`m rather surprised that you`re looking at such a one-sided view of history here. perhaps there is something hidden here that i`m missing?
i guess, according to sting, ``history will teach us nothing.``
and despite all, muslims are not great at politics or at keeping peace. i wonder what makes muslims so temperamental and jumpy when it comes to politics. one needs to understand the power games. sun tzu should be read more widely :)
next from godot, why kaalay south africans should not have demanded end of aparthied until they had acquired the same standard of living as the goras. and after that, why gora officers had the right to exclude desis from certain institutions.
kyooN madh-i mehv-i khoobee-i taigh-i ada na thhay``.......Faiz
tr:
We are truly sorry! Its our fault if we nursed our wounds & injuries
Why were not appreciative of the style & skill of the dagger(man)
To use the apathy of the neighbouring Arab despots to deflect responsibility for the dehumanization of the Palestinians away from the Israelis is disgusting!
I think this uninformed idiot wrote this piece of garbage before Hazb`s victory. He might have changed his mind by now.
In any event, I admire your consistency in writing long rejoinders even to the most insignificant interactors. I`m sure your energies will not have gone in vain if these were to create doubts in the mind of a single person of the author`s ilk.
The first is the fact that Israel needs to be recognised for a people who have attained great heights and for the respect they command from the USA, albeit with a lot of foreign aid.
The second is the fact that religious fanaticism is encouraged in the mid east by muslim despots, who use the cover to loot oil money. Though it has to be recognised that Israel is no less a religiously fanatic country.
A commendable article, which will pass over the heads of most extremist muslims, but will give restless nights to the moderates.
The victor has the power to make peace not the vanquished. Why there is no peace in that region is because Israel wants no peace. When the Palestinian Authority, on its official charter, has recognized the existence of Israel on a much greater percent of land than what the UN gave it, there was no peace from Israel or the recognition of the right of the palestinians to live outside of occupation, so now this Hamas nonsense is mere distraction. Why should a resistance, any resistance, that arose as a direct result of occupation, put down its arms when it is being confronted in a most barbarous fashion by an occupier armed to the teeth?
He writes <<< That the Jews have the firm control of this planet’s sole superpower’s foreign policy when it impacts Israel in any way, shape, or form, and that they shape American public opinion with respect to Israel is beyond anyone’s doubt. Many prominent personalities have written books and articles denouncing the AIPAC’s iron grip that overwrites Israel’s interest over America’s. >>>>
Actually they don`t have a firm control of the superpower`s foreign policy, rather the foreign policy of the superpower has firm control over it. It`s success is the ability to mesh its goals with the goals of the superpower in that region, not the other way around, it is a subordinate partner, if the oil in that region were to vanish, or the US to become disinterested, Israel would in all probability wither away. AIPAC is successful in Congress and Congress does not design the US foreign policy, its role is mere legitimation after the event.
He writes <<< But is Israel entirely responsible for Palestinians’ ghetto-like existence? If Israel failed to provide economic security and win over the hearts of the Palestinians, the bigger failure lies with the Arab rulers who have used the Palestinians as pawns to keep the bogey of Israel breathing in order to divert the attention from their despotic and nauseating grip on power >>>
Israel is totally responsible for the ghetto existence of the Palestinians, this according to ALL international organization worth the name, including the UN, Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, B`tselem:Israeli center for Human Rights and every person who has some basic sense of how the economy of a totally surrounded, choked off society works. The Arab leaders don`t have to convince their public about support of the Palestinians, public sentiment has been strictly with them even when these despotic rulers have gone the other way. Look at the way you are writing this nonsense article. You call the Israeli grip on power on a global scale as something admirable and then you turn around and call the grip of power by the Arabs despots as nauseating. The least you could have done to hide your bias was be consistent but you have splattered your ass kissing of the Israelis on the wall for all to see.
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