Chowk is 9 Today

CHOWK:

A very Happy 9th birthday. May it become stronger & help lead the way to to reinstall the glorious past.

``Man kee dunyaa meiN na payaa meiN naiN a`frangi kaa raaj
Man kee dunyaa meiN naa daikhay meiN nay shaikh O Brhaman``..ALLAMA IQBAL


I know that I have not been your ideal citizen but your patience & perseverence has definitely seen, I hope, some merit in me as well. Reflecting the ``true``[ virtual Reality] society I will proudly wear the badge of a rebel, a renegade, an insurgent, or even a terrorist--oh how times lend a new vigour, a polished lustre and a refreshing respect to words when uttered by the decadent & immoral farangi .

Chok-Staff,

I`ve been the biggest proponent of this forum for enlightened discussion amongst grown-ups. I have fought for this forum on all fronts, may it be intellectual or in the wolf pits. I hate to see it being taken over by bigots, and saboteurs.

Please ... some discipline. I had been told by one of the prominent interactors to `evolve` as Chowk is evolving. But it is evolving to what? Back to apes?

Happy Birthday, and Many Happy Returns.

And on this auspicious occasion, I implore Chowk-Staff to make it a paid subscription site. No more freebees. The people who do not respect Chowk, and regard it as a `dumb` and `useless` forum and they vist here just to `kill` time, do not belong here.

Besides, it is unfair for us to expect Chowk staff to continue doing this great and noble service from money out of their own pockets.

Sincerely.

Zeemax

Today, there are many voices out there that reach out and ask us to speak “As Chowk” on issues that concern the people of the sub-continent. So far we have consciously avoided editorialization but do wonder if that is soon to become our responsibility too. We seek your thoughts and opinions on this important decision.

That doesn`t seem like a good idea to me. You`ll be always accused of being partisan, besides, indeed falling prey to partisan views.

Don`t do it. You cannot create idealism, only channel it.

HAPPY BIRTH DAY CHOWK

A very happy birthday to chowk. This website is doing a great service to the people of the sub-continent.

Kindly keep it free of barriers like censorship as well as subscription. You have done a great job so far.

Chowk Staff,

Happy birthday Chowk.

Chowk is a collective consciousness, much an amalgamation of its editors and the proponents of its existence and evolution.

If Chowk`s gist can be defined, then its nature can also be understood. If the nature of Chowk can be articulated, then it also can be inferred as to what is not Chowk.

Everyone who stands firm on the educated ideals that govern his/her essence is dogged by the negativity of opposites. I have been with Chowk for a little less than 3 years so I can not profess to know what exactly Chowk stands for, per se.

In my journey to know Chowk more still, I would like Chowk to propel its educated nature. Among the key points that, I think, define Chowk is that it`s a medium of thought-provoking insight and analysis. And also it is a medium to educate the masses who stumble upon philosopher`s pebble to discover Chowk and stay there a while.

In a shrinking global culture where a myriad of beliefs brush up against one another, some pleasantly and some unpleasantly, are undergoing a period of transition which itself is surfing the waves of chaos. Definitions are clarified and natures elucidated of the schools of thoughts which are backed by enlightened masses.

One of the jobs Chowk must look into and complete is to expound upon the Indo/Pak identity and the socio-political and socio-religious diaspora that highlight it and attempt to intersubjectively state the spirit of their beliefs.

At base, Chowk must strengthen its discovered nature and evolve continuously. If Chowk has enemies, it merely means that Chowk stands for something.

Peace!

``In a time of moral crisis neutrality is complicity.`` - Hamza Yusuf

Heppy budday chowk! As you enter your 10th year, it would be nice to throw up some factoids about the site: e.g.
1. who was the first interactor and what did s/he post about?
2. which was the first article published on chowk?
3. whose idea was unplugged (and more importantly who designed its crappy interface)?

OK, ok so you can ignore the last one... :)

#8 by burpinder

Amma Yaar Burpinder Bhai,

At this time, we must not forget two icons of Chowk ideology. Saima Shah who wrote ``Say Something, Let`s Talk`` and laid down the direction of all interaction, and much much later, Farzana Versey, who not only implemented the ground rules but raised the quality of interaction to new heights.

Let`s say Hooray for both.

The best things in life are free - air, water....and now chowk. and google and the rest of the internet. :-)

Good job chowk staff. You can pat yourselves on the back and accept my thanks for many hours of relaxation over the past several years. In the company of some fine posters from whom I have learnt a few things. And all the best to all posters on chowk.

Jai Hind. Pakistan Zindabad.

Re #8 zeemax

Saima`s contributions are of course valuable. Hurray!

Farzana`s as well, though ironically enough, not quite in the way she`d have expected I guess! At least in my case, the initial knee-jerk reaction of `` why is this stupid woman siding with the Pakis all the time`` morphed over time to the point today where a lot of what I believed (and what I thought was believed) seems strange and unreal to me. It`s happened through a lot of interaction with (real and imaginary) Pakistanis and fellow-Indians on this website, some of these vitriolic and jingoistic, but for the most part civil. I guess the remarkable thing is that when the communication lines are open, a lot of things happen to change your outlook, and slow as this may be, it`s vastly preferable to living in isolation from each other, the hatred and differences stewing in their own juices, till (like the Arabs and Israelis) you`re not even really sure what you`re fighting for and the enmity itself is enough reason to go on hating each other.

That in itself is worth three and a half cheers. Keep going chowk!

Best wishes as we enter double figures in our innings at chowk.

Been very interactive and lately again a lurker, at chowk, due to a variety of reasons.

Best, again/Veeresh

#11 by burpinder

Burpinder,

So that`s why there must be no editorial policy on Chowk. Farzana is an idealist, much like most of us, and has an opinion. If you guys don`t want an opinion, that`s fine. I already wrote that any editor will be accused of being partisan.

But, Farzana must be complemented profusely for bringing discipline to Chowk.

Her other contributions, like her iLogs and her articles, are esoteric .. and not for the street crowd. Those were a bonus. But I guess you can do without that.

Chowk is a very good idea but how does it ptomote the ideals it has set for itself is a question that must be asked by its founders themselves.

Excluding Bangladesh for Chowk is a mindset. The superscription of Chowk should read ``The identities of India, Pakistan and Bangladesh`` not just India and Pakistan. If Pakistan is meant Bangladesh included, then India is also meant all the three included.

It`s India which became independent and it was partitioned into two Dominions - Union of India, Pakistan. Considering 14th August 1947 as independence day is big fraud because Indian Independence Act came into being on 15th August not on 14th August.

I hope we live live Canada and the US not like North and South Korea. That`s what Jinnah has dreamnt about our countries. Since Jinnah`s ideals of pakistan are buried, we only hope that we`d not suck into this 1000 years war (ZAB dream).

Mmmnnn.. Anyway.. My wishes to Pakistanis on this occassion... (as per the five decades of this tradition on 14th August).

happy birthday and wish you best for times ahead................

amid this revelry please take some time to restrain zeemax.

Best of luck and good wishes on your HAPPY BITHDAY. May Chowk scale new hights in the coming years.

[But, Farzana must be complemented profusely for bringing discipline to Chowk.]- zeemax.

...we can see the discipline in zeemax` writings on chowk...it also shows the idealism of chowk when he says...and i paraphrase...

1.he shoots to kill
2.he eats with kings and princes
3.he knows preferred flavous of rubber by 18 year olds for BJ
4.he knows many other secrets, he can`t discuss
5.he wakes up and apologises for his imaginary expertise

ps: i am not sure if farzana versey is very comfortable with zeemax` ``unflinching loyalty``...she must be squirming in her seat wherever she may be...

HAPPY BIRTHDAY CHOWK....but cut out the delusion...websites do not have enemies but the editors do...;)

How about improving your website security and making it so script kiddies can`t get in?

Happy Birthday Chowk. I am proud to say that I have been associated with Chowk for 7 out of the past nine years. I can thank Chowk for new friends, travels, opinions and ocassional outbursts, all of which have been beneficial to my quality of life :)

You bring up some interesting points; rather one salient one that will define Chowk`s very existence; namely editorialization! Even the most superficial consideration of Chowk having an editorial voice has thoughts racing through my head, both positive and negative.

It can considered that for Chowk to come into it`s own as an entity, it will need an editorial perspective. The immediate impact of an editorial is that you will gain friends and enemies, both transient. Having been on Chowk for seven years, I can honestly say that nationality does not matter beyond a superficial level. Sure, at the macro-level Indians will side with Indians and Pakistanis will side with Pakistanis nut that coherence breaks apart as soon as you come down to more granular issues. An editorial will generate both bouquets and brickbats; all for the good as long as the editorial policy has no impact on user generated content which I know it won`t.

``18 by arjun_m on August 14, 2006 8:27am PT
How about improving your website security and making it so script kiddies can`t get in?
``

How about you would like to devote siome time to giving ideas on that? Apparently, there are idiots out there who feel so threatened by a site that they will try to hack it.

Happy Birthday Chowk! I think you`ve done a great job and I hope you`ll continue to do so.
You`re a place I have spent countless hours on and I`ve enjoyed it immensely and also learnt a great deal.

I hope you will keep it subcription-free but you might want to think of advertising as a source of revenue.

Although I`ve often represented what, on Chowk at least, would be considered the minority
view I`m glad you`ve let me have my say.

How about hosting a multimedia section where we could upload stuff to do with the Subcontinent?

Happy Birthday Chowk

I think this is the best the chowk can ever get.

It is all right to gloat once in while but it wont hurt to be realistic.

“Chowk is the worlds largest online community of discussion around contemporary writings of Indian and Pakistani people.”

This perhaps was the occasion for you say it is the ONLY community where some of the worst Indians and Pakistani discuss things in the worst possible way. There is no other site on the web that would allow so much abuse to be published and unfortunately, it is catchy.

“Chowk pages are read by over 250,000 visitors every month. There are over 4000 original articles, poems, essays, and reports.”

That actually makes it a very small community. There are sites that take one million hits every day. I don’t know how you count “read” but with 100 regular members of this site and all hitting the pages multiple time, 250,000 a month is really a very small number.

“Chowk is an enormous undertaking and requires significant time, resources and commitment. We thank you for the consistent encouragement you have given us.”

As far as I know, it is operated from a home on a part time basis. Farzana was the first professional editor for this site. Now chowk is again being edited from home and believe me it shows. The first thing one should realize is that being an IT personal or the developer of the site will not make any person an editor or the moderator of the site. An editor needs different qualifications and training than a code writer.

“we are entering a phase where Chowk’s reach and footprint is significant – we are clearly starting to bend minds, shape opinions and influence change.”

Footprint:

Just a few months ago, I sent link to a friend in the state dept to read my one article on Kashmir. She commented that it is a horrible site and cannot forward the link to her colleagues; instead, she copy pasted the article for her friends.

Similarly, I asked some Pakistani liberal and progressives in Pakistan who support better Indo-pak relations to look at the site. After going thru some interacts and visiting some more site, they certainly are less enthusiastic in promoting Indo-Pak relations.

Instead of just gloating perhaps you should also write your disappointments and why this site appears the way, it is. I know you perhaps find it hard to criticize your brainchild but a child gets better help when parents are willing to evaluate their own behavior and shortcomings realistically.

HP


You are correct. I also find it really hard to recommend this website to even close acquaintances. I think it will reflect badly on me. There is no hope in improving its interact callibre. Farzana did what she could. Self policing will never work. The next step is out right censorship. In comparison, I find Naseeb.com to be relatively better; one reason being that the censorship is strict and second is that it is about 99% hinduless. For that reason there is atleast some modicum of decency there.

HP

”This perhaps was the occasion for you say it is the ONLY community where some of the worst Indians and Pakistani discuss things in the worst possible way. There is no other site on the web that would allow so much abuse to be published and unfortunately, it is catchy.”

Thank you, HP, for bringing out the obvious. When I asked the Chowk Staff on my Middle East board what’s behind their strategy in not censoring the filthy and abusive posts, there was no response. What’s funny is the following that is permanently etched over the Interacts text box. No one pays attention to it including the Chowk Staff. What purpose does it serve?

“We encourage all to participate in discussions. All we ask you to be is civil. If your post includes words or masked references that are offensive, crude, repugnant, or obscene, your post will be duly deleted. We thank you for your participation.”

It should be changed to read the reality: “We encourage you to post any obscenity your mind can conceive. Your tongue is your weapon. Use it freely. We thank you for your participation.”

I would not recommend this site to anyone I know. If I want my friends to read any of my articles I submitted to Chowk, I send them a copy but never mention Chowk.

``In comparison, I find Naseeb.com to be relatively better; one reason being that the censorship is strict and second is that it is about 99% hinduless. For that reason there is atleast some modicum of decency there.``

Plenty of Hindus who feel the same way about Sulekha etc. There are no Muslims there and hence it`s a lousy echo-chamber where everyone agrees with everyone. Tell me one other South Asian site that has both Indians and Pakistanis and the ocassional Nepali / Bangladesh / Afghan and has more civil interaction.


Actually, that gives me the idea that we should do more to attract individuals from other South Asian countries as well. Nepal, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Afghanistan etc It might lead to more composite conversations.

For the past nine years I have been a staunch advocate of no-censorship but now I think if we preserve the first desi experiment on free speech then we have to police it. But I think it is too much work for any editorial staff to handle this amount of garbage. Therefore, I suggest reader partnership in censorship. I suggest that a panel of ten readers on rotating basis should take charge of moderation on rotating basis. We need some volunteers who need to be voted in.

Urstruly,

``strict and second is that it is about 99% hinduless.``

I rather disagree with this. I spar with Indians all the time, still, some are certainly decent and honest folks though not very bight.

I have visited Naseeb and in fact have written for them too, but due to my own political bent, I dont find that site attractive. I must agree that the quality of interacts and the knowledge people show is certainly superior than what we see on chowk, however Naseeb is dominantly a second generation West born Pakistani site and that has its drawbacks.

Though in terms of decency and the quality of interacts, naseeb is far superior to chowk.

You also need to understand that Chowk is essentially an Indian site. For the last nine years, it has been edited and managed by Indians and the soft corner is evident. Perhaps, the owners from the very beginning were not honest about their political views and that led to many Pakistan flocking to the site and writing for it too.

I think that impression is now changing and that I believe is the reason that we don’t see many Pakistani on this site or they leave quickly.

I don`t think that naseeb.com is an echo chamber. There are heated debates among a universal community; and as compared to chowk the list of writers and interactor is quite diverse in all respects with jews, christians, americans, blacks, whites, muslims, arabs, atheists, and people of various other ethnicity and race interact. The measure of decency at naseeb is such that I would recommend that website to my mother, my juniors or seniors without a second thought. Chowk always gives me second thoughts.

If chowk keeps at this pace and discipline, there will never be any shortage of interactors. (Please check HPs note). But that is where it will stay forever. I do not vision Chowk stepping into the next intellectual level. people move on, they grow up, and become intelligent. Chowk is headed towards a dead end.

I don’t visit Sulekha anymore but when I did, I found that site to be worse than chowk. The quality of interaction amongst Indians themselves was horrible and pretty much trashy.

Abuses were the norms though some articles were of top quality.

Re: # 29

``T...he measure of decency at naseeb is such that I would recommend that website to my mother, my juniors or seniors without a second thought. Chowk always gives me second thoughts....``

would it be because of the pics pf female genitals as posted by interactors?

HP

I think your assessment of naseeb is correct. The issues discussed over there are more international in nature but that doesn`t matter. The intellectual level of writers at chowk has gone down sharply. Poetry, and literature sections have been dead for a while and if there is any posting there it is below sophomoric. The number of hits at literary pages is a stark indicator of calibre of people who interact here. Chowk is not even a sensational tabloid; I did not want to say this but at interactor level it is nothing but a mental lavatory. At owner level I don`t think it has been a sucessful partnership between Indian and pakistanis. Probably they are honest people, but they do not realize the extent of the chasm that divide these two nations at the level of intellectualism and set of values.

Re: # 31

Please appreciate the difference between a medical journal on physiology and playboy.

I`m still waiting for diagrams on male physiology...

Samina,

Can we stay away from personal gripes? I am sure you have plenty to say abt the site itself...

Re: # 34

i sense your eagerness but you have to write an article on male circumcision first

HP: ``I rather disagree with this. I spar with Indians all the time, still, some are certainly decent and honest folks though not very bight.``

Urstruly: ``Probably they (Indians and Pakistanis owning the site) are honest people, but they do not realize the extent of the chasm that divide these two nations at the level of intellectualism and set of values.``

LOL...it`s not a nice feeling to be hated but it is INFINTELY worse to be patronised! :))

Salim is an example of what is wrong with this site.

He has a mind of his own. Sometimes he is sharp and often he is just ordinary. However, the chowk staff banned him multiple times not for abusing religions, race, nationality and color of skins and his futile boast abt his Turkish roots. He was banned multiples times due to his personal exchange with some interactors.

Nobody as far as I remember, has been banned on this site for abusing religions, nationality and for being a racist.

Exchanging cusses with Individuals on this site is considered bad but abusing people collectively because of their religion, nationality, and race is A-okay.

Personal exchanges are still personal; people can respond to them but cussing whole communities require a response that only multiplies the problem. You cuss my religion, nationality, and race and I get back to you in the same vain.

What is worst? Chowk thinks that it is okay to abuse communities…

#34 by saminasha2 on August 14, 2006 11:36am PT
{``I`m still waiting for diagrams on male physiology...``}

Why don`t you just go out with hiim and get it over with?

#37 by burpinder
``it`s not a nice feeling to be hated but it is INFINTELY worse to be patronised! :)) ``

How to put people down is somethig you learn on this site fast....

#38, HP {``Salim is an example of what is wrong with this site.``}

HP,
And, you, Sir, are what`s wrong with the cock `n bull story that we come from two naked human beings expelled from the Garden. It`s obvious that you are the main proof of the Darwinian perspective. Even Sadna recognizes you for your contributions.

Re: # 39

HP,

Nothing to say to Chuhan or Urstruly?

And then we wonder why there are extremely few women interacting on the fp...

well, some of us wonder....

Happy Birthday and welcome to pre-teens ;-)

HP stop taking yourself so seriously.

#39
You see Salim,

You are not bright today...You read my post wrong...

Samina,

Personal matters should only be taken up on UP....

#44, {``You are not bright today...You read my post wrong... ``}

HP,
You don`t have to be too bright to recognize a left-handed compliment. Unlike you, the good thing about Gujja is that his left hand (and right one for that matter) are never used to compliment others - they are both reserved for his own pleasure.

so much for the birthday party here. . . y`all are too intent on cutting each other down. par yehi tau chowk hi babua!

oh yeah, happy birthday chowk! thanks for the memories, i suggest that hamidm do a ``thanks for the memories`` thing. i`d just like to say thank you for letting all the gaali-smart folks stay, and chasing so many away. . . wow, that rhymed.

seriously though. . . happy birthday! enjoy your party. all the best, and a personal thank you for helping me out at times. :)

Dear Chowk:

HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU.

HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU.

HAPPY NINTH BIRTHDAY TO DEAR CHOWK!

May your friends increase and your enemies vanish (Aameen).

Nine is an interesting number:

* 9 is the first positive integer > 1, which is not a prime.

* I am 72 and the sum of the digits of 72 is 9.

* The most sacred month of the islamic calendar is the 9th month, RAMZAN-UL-MUBARAK.

* The most sacred night of the islamic calendar is LAILAT-UL-QADR, the 27th night of
Ramzan

---

sum of the digits of 27 is 9

---

LAILAT-UL-QADR, written in urdu consists of
9 letters.

* SHAB-E-MERAJ is the 27th night of RAJJAB-UL-MURAJJAB

---

sum of the digits of 27 is 9.

I am in favour of the editorials, because I want to know the editor`s opinion on different
subjects discussed on Chowk. We need not fear the enemies because of editorials. We
already have them.

I want the writers and interactors to use their real names. It would be nice to look at their
profiles. I want to know whose articles I am reading and with whom I am interacting.

Personal abuse should not be tolerated and the abusers should be thrown out of Chowk
after two warnings.

I hope and pray that Chowk will be a better website when we celebrate its 10th anniversary.

I stumbled upon chowk exactly 2 years ago as atif1. Within a span of 21 days of interacting, I managed to get myself banned. From then on, I learned my ropes to stay afloat, even though at times I came precariously close to getting banned. There were a few times when I sat down at my computer not knowing whether I would be able to log into chowk or not.

Having said this, I must admit that before I was introduced to chowk by a friend of mine, my sexually laden intellectual discourses were limited to expressing them through emails, conversations in friends` houses, and during women`s support group sessions in a local liberal arts college. Chowk taught me how to be articulate in my intellectual discourses without necessarily crossing the borders of sexual harassment - a persistent problem I faced in those women`s support group meetings. Along the way, chowk staff was kind enough to publish 3 of my ``writings``, and a couple of photographic galleries.

Chowk gave me an audience whereby I could get my thoughts grilled. Now even my critics acknowledge that my articles and ilogs awakened their ``child within``. It is sad but true...when I stepped into my adulthood and noticed how grown ups acted, I subconsciously refused to grow up. Although I had no control over my physical growth, and god knows I am amply endowed, I could and did control my mental growth.

And so I thank chowk staff for giving someone like me a medium to express my thoughts, misgivings, and inhibitions. Most of all, I thank chowk staff for letting me be what I am, most of the times.

Happy Birthday Chowk! And Happy Birthday Pakistan!

Congrats chowk!

I must admit I have nt been as loyal to chowk as I would ve liked to, but the article I liked best this year - and possibly one of the strongest contenders for the last 9 was http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00006347&channel=chaathouse&start=0&end=9&chapter=1&page=1
by Salim.

Hope Chowk lasts forever ( well maybe one day it ll metamorphise into a blog? )

Chowk.com is certainly better than Naseeb.com. My articles have been published on both sites.

Naseeb.com, thanks to its inexperienced Pakistani nationalist editor, is terribly biased towards Pakistan. The censorship is pathetic on Naseeb. Any comment/talkback that criticises Pakistan or Jinnah or even Yasser Latif Hamdani (the Naseeb editor`s husband) is conveniently chopped off. Just like Pakistan, Naseeb stinks of dictatorship.

Chowk.com, because it is being managed primarily by Indians, is democratic. And why censorship at all? It seems that interactos who are criticising Chowk for its lack of censorship are forgetting that one of the best advantages of the Internet is that allows you to express yourself without any inhibition. You can shower flowers or spit venom on a person/community fearlessly.

hai hai, i wasn`t aware that lack of censorship or this glorious thing we all hail as free speech gave us free license to spit on a community. but that`s just it, isn`t it? some people use the internet to express their racist, group-hating attitudes and they think it`s okay. and if they think it`s okay on chowk to do that, and our fearless chowk leaders don`t do anything, then what`s the praablem? right?

whatever.

Exactly my thoughts ana...

People need to understand that no one is asking for censorship here.... I never see any type of abusive post on Naseeb so I believe that editor there is doing a good job...

Happy Birthday Chowk.com! Long life for you!

HP, salaams!

i don`t know if we have the same thoughts `cause i was being sarcastic about there being no praablem. there is a praablem, and if you remember, i used to advocate censorship across the board. but now, i just think that if we don`t have the dil-o-dimaagh to act with decency ourselves, then why should something like chowk interact guidelines, and a chowk ``hunter`` stop us? let it all out. . . `cause those who do, show what small small hearts and minds they have. even if this is a forum, where ``superficiality`` is really all we see in most interactors, there is something to be said about those who lump all pakistanis or indians or whomever together, and say vile things about them.

and there it is.

and to that i`d like to add: if this makes us look bad to other forums, or people working towards peace between our countries, or any sane intelligent person, it`s our own effin` fault, and yeah the staff here at chowk do need to think about this, if they`re truly proud of being the largest online community etcetera etcetera etcetera. it`s not just the writers we should be boasting about. it is the whole community.

The Naseeb editor may be doing a good job in warding off abusive posts but it is doing a bad job is publishing only pro-Pakistan articles and comments while censoring anything that talks negative of Pak or Jinnah. Of course, only Pakistanis and Pak-tilted Indian Muslims would like Naseeb.

Saal Girah mubarik

This site exists because of the commitment of its founders to keep it going at any cost. Chowk has survived nine years not because of its core constituency but in spite of it. This “core constituency” is fickle and ever changing. There is constant attrition and replenishment. Some of us may have lingered on, though fading in and out, over the years but that counts for naught. There has been nothing constant or consistent about Chowk save its founders’ commitment (or should I say “stubbornness” instead). They entertain lofty ideas about Chowk’s future but are constrained by the limitations of time and energy. The spirit is willing but the flesh gets weak. It is the story of every altruistic mom and pop all volunteer enterprise. The bacon has to be brought home, the dog needs to be walked and the baby’s nappies have to be changed. There are, after all, only 24 hours in a day.

Until there is a self-generation component to it that affords commercial viability for the whole enterprise and thus professional editorial services are made feasible, things will stay more or less the same.

The “Farzana experiment” could have worked much better if it was done differently. But I can say this only with hindsight. She gave her heart and soul but got bogged down because she personalized her role too far too fast. She should have remained anonymous at first (“Chowk Staff”) and thoroughly cleaned up the muck that clogs the plumbing before coming out of the closet so to speak. That approach might have stood a chance. What Chowk is, or has become, is because of how it evolved. Only an evolutionary process (“artificial selection” perhaps) guided by a “hidden hand” could have worked to undo some of the ills that have snuck into the fabric of this cyber crossroads. She tried to be a revolutionary instead and got burnt out by the entrenched resistance. Chowk didn’t need a Trotsky. It needed a Stalin. Let’s hope the next editor (whenever s/he reincarnates) is not a Gorbachev.

...SR

Yappy B`day Chowk

``This perhaps was the occasion for you say it is the ONLY community where some of the worst Indians and Pakistani discuss things in the worst possible way. There is no other site on the web that would allow so much abuse to be published and unfortunately, it is catchy.”

Intriguing coming from someone who routinely abuses women, writes a lot of posts about abusing mothers for interactors now talks about decency. Similarly the poster who abused teenage daughters of another interactor now wants a paid subscription site for civilized discussion.

But apart from that its all good. This site still is the best in terms of usage and ease of navigation. And inspite of the abuses & fights it still provides a lively discussion. Gives you exposure to differing viewpoints and helps in making friends across borders. And for the faltu timepass folks there is always unplugged.

Some people on here cannot think beyond the level of a six year old, they are still busy with ``my papa is stronger than your papa`` etc. For them, as for the `time-passers` and `recreational reader` on here, Chowk should create seperate subsections where they can enjoy their ``free speech``~ when these people drift unto the arena of important issues they not only distort it beyond relevance, they infringe upon the rights of others who are genuinely interested in understanding and sharing thoughts on those issues, which is unfair and infringes upon the rights of many others, and those many others whose rights are being infringed upon are forced to react in unbecoming ways out of frustration. This sets a cycle in place ensuring that Chowk is reduced to a dung-pile and reflects very badly on the vast majority of the decent folk on here.

Reduce the number of articles you publish if monitoring is hard, clean up the site, otherwise the published articles are quite useless given the interactions going on on most threads.

Happy Birthday Chowk!

Some Suggestions:

---

We all know that sex and violence sells. Chowk, I am afraid has concentrated too much on the violence part. Which is now out of control. I would suggest you concentrate more on the sex part, in the next version. I would like to float two ideas, which could be the basis of your new marketing strategy (Normally I don`t do this for free, but consider this a birthday present):

1. Babes of Chowk Section:

Over time, the guys here, have admired, cherished, envied, learnt from, abused, (maybe even) coveted, fancied, and basically, been over-all enthralled by the various ladies who visit Chowk on a regular basis. Some have even fallen in love and gotten married. No doubt the wisdom of the fairer sex here, is something we have all benefited from. However, their is a limit to everything. After a while, repitition of things can start to get on one`s nerves.

Now, granted your pictures section can be quite interesting. But wouldn`t you agree, one can only get so excited from seeing Erwin Franzen`s rickshaw in Peshawar. Or Vereesh holding a fish in his hand and smiling from ear to ear (not that that is not a sexy sight!)....

So, I would like to a suggest a link - in between gulberg and university avenue - which introduces us to the babes of chowk. I know it is not for everyone, but there must be some confident, self-assured ladies on this site, who are not afraid to be exhibitionists. Perhaps desi babe posters. Desi screen savers. Some titillating tales that arouse (the imagination, you moron). Who knows, maybe a Hameeda`s Secret lingerie line. A private chat room, where indian and pakistani ladies can, lets say, promote foreign relations.

If you can pull this off, believe me, this site will get so many hits, your servers will crash......

2. Men of Chowk Beach Calendar:

Chowk is filled with testostorone-filled desi men. Regularly describing their masculanity and, ``conquests,`` on every thread. Threatening to have their sexual ways with each other and each others` relatives. While I have not met any of them, one would have to assume they would be quite a physical site, if seen in real. Muscle-bound Greek gods lurching amongst us mere mortals. The ladies would certainly fall all over them. As might many of the men........

So why not put this pool of masculanity to good use. Chowk is short of money. Why not use the local talent? For this I suggest a, ``Men of Chowk Beach Calendar,`` to be published on Chowk`s anniversary, every year:

Seriously, who wouldn`t pay big bucks to see hamidm2 and Urstruly, walking hand in hand on the shores of lake Michigan, in their tight, ``Red white and blue - I love the USA`` matching speedos? I know I certainly would break my piggy bank for this. Or Zeemax and Godot sumo-wrestling in their tightly wound G-strings, as they debate the finer points of each others` female relatives. I know I would pay big bucks for that picture. Or Vereesh wearing his Tata Fruit of the loom underwear as he stands next to his Maruti Indus Suzuki at the exit of the Reliance M2 highway in between Lahore and Rawalpindi - right across the street from the Infosys Kalar Kahar PTDC hotel.......I am in for that one, as well!

Or Dost-mittar and Nazar Hayat Khan, sunbathing in their soaked teasingly see-through dhotis, on the banks of their village nallah in the hills of West Punjab. Forget the Spring Break wet-T shirt contests. I know a lot of senior citizen women, who would sell their dentures to buy this picture..........

Or Echoboom, Naqshbandi and Masadi wearing nothing but a smile; strategically covering themselves with their handy maswaq. The right shade of light, a few bushes and leaves and this one could be on the cover of Takbeer!

So there you go.............the opportunities are endless.............and perhaps it is time to change things up a bit..............

Re: # 49

Gripping stuff, Atif :))

Congrats to Chowk!!!

Best Wishes for another year and best wishes to all Pakistanis and Indians in the hope that the next year will be better than the last one.

Ciao

Re: # 48 by number

A CORRECTION:

* 9 is the first positive integer > 1, which is not prime

SHOULD READ

* 9 is the first odd positive integer > 1, which is not prime

Re: # 64

9 is also the only number 1 less then 10.


now IsNt Daat AmAzInG ........

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Jiyay Bhutto.!!!

Happy B`day.

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Dear Chowk and Chowkies

It is nice meeting you guys on this forum. The people who complain about the relegious abuse and lower standards on chowk I offer Ghalib`s couplet

Maana nahi voh khudaparast, jao voh be wafa sahi
Jisko ho deen-o-dil azeez, uski gali me jaye kyon.

Happy birthday chowk.

Another couplet for Chow and Chowkies

Tujhko dariya dilli ki kasam saakiya
Daur pe Daur uhin chalta rahe
Ashaq bhi chashm-e-purnam se girtay rahen
Aur zigar se dhuan bhi nikalta rahe.

What a style of describing the small little things you`ve got! It`s really amazing to know that we`ve got talented writers like you.....der kha....keep up the good work .... zama zrha de khushala ku......

Hey, I did not post 71 ???????????

Happy Birthday Chowk.
People, Pleaseeee, dont compare Chowk to Naseeb, Naseeb sucks.l

51 by lucknawi on August 14, 2006 3:07pm PT
Naseeb.com, thanks to its inexperienced Pakistani nationalist editor, is terribly biased towards Pakistan. The censorship is pathetic on Naseeb. Any comment/talkback that criticises Pakistan or Jinnah or even Yasser Latif Hamdani (the Naseeb editor`s husband) is conveniently chopped off. Just like Pakistan, Naseeb stinks of dictatorship.
I agree a 100 %.

Happy Birthday, Chowk and thank you, chowk staff (never knew how many are there?) for your painstaking labour of love. I would be against your editorialising until the site can afford a professional editor; your opinions can be easily understood by anyone following this website, articles selected (for example, choosing five articles in support and one against a particular viewpoint) and causes supported.

I agree with those who would like to see this site cleaned up. But for that you probably need more resources and therefore you might wish to adopt some of the revenue generating suggestions posted on this Board. I am also amused to note that some of the most vociferous proponents of cleaning-up are themselves the worst abusers, 80% of whose interacts would be rejected by any print media.

#74 by dost-mittar

DM,

If you`re hinting towards some one in particular, it may have crossed a suitably well-tuned mind that perhaps that interactor was doing this precisely to draw chowk-staff attention to the extent of the problem so effectively invented and practiced by the vast majority of your compatriots?

Khair ...

And as for Naseeb, one needs only see Alexa`s ratings to see how far Naseeb outdoes chowk in traffic and rankings, not that, that is the mark of sucess, if numbers were the yardstick India would be the most sucessful country in the world.

And true that no one can say anything about Pakistan or Yasser Hamdani, because both are backed by vision and opposed by the blind.

Pakistan Zindabad!

-Aisha Sarwari

Happy Birthday Chowk! May you live 1000 years so we can all go to archives to see who was always right.

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leave the chowk alone - it is just fine the way it is

............a little gali galoch is cathartic and it really doesn`t hurt anyone ............ since i live in a household where the women outnumber me 3 to 1, i never really get to exercise my manly right to use and listen to profanity and invective when i want to ........ chowk provides the necessary relief, otherwise the best i have managed in the last few years is wagging my middle finger at teenage drivers and calling them f`in idiots - and i got severely reprimanded for that by the girls ..............

....... also, for those of us who do not live in the motherland, the gali-galoch provides relief from homesickness, ennui, and nostalgia ............ after a while one begins to miss the colorful language of the honorable inhabitants of lahore`s heera mandi, rickshaw drivers and tonga walas - now, thanks to zeemax we can get it right here on chowk ............

CHOWK: Happy Birthday to You.

where should we send the brthday gifts?

too bad...you are not a person, or else I would have showered you with Gifts....


Before you beat the drums, please know that 2/3 of the logins are repeat logins, i.e. people with multiple ids.

thanks and happy birthday again!

ref#78
Dear Hamidm

So Heera Mandi is the missing link between you and Zeemax.

Happy Birthday Chowk. Don`t know whether you are the best or the biggest, but the very fact that you have survived for 9 years is no joke. Thanks for all the effort put in.

As far as freedom is concerned, I think it is all right not to censor. I myself have been frustrated at times. But it is something worth learning if we aspire to live in ``free`` societies - we have to tolerate.

Thank you once again for your service.

#78 Next time the car ahead of you is going at 30 mph on the left lane, or if someone cuts across your car thereby depriving you of your rights of self-determination, try some panjabi gaalaN (loudly if mixed company is not present) instead. This is very relaxing and adds to the enjoyment of the ride.

#77 by amansandhu on August 15, 2006 5:56am PT
The blind wife of a deluded Pakistani.

I agree with you 100 per cent. Aisha Sarwari, the Naseeb editor, just proves my point when she says in interact # 76, ``And true that no one can say anything about Pakistan or Yasser Hamdani, because both are backed by vision and opposed by the blind``. This just proves that Naseeb is a Pak nationalist website. No wonder it follows stringent censorship, akin to Pakistan`s dicatatorship-military rule.

And what ``vision`` does Pak have? Being the terrosist hub of the world? Lol. It has certainly succeeded in that vision.

hamid

“leave the chowk alone - it is just fine the way it is”

If for some Chowkies gaali-galoch is going to be the norm and the preferred method of communication, then screw the “high road.” I am already salivating over the punch I can deliver to any fucker who messes with me. Let it be an open season at Chowk and watch me in action.

zeemax#75:

How about reminding chowk about abusing posts/posters while maintaining one`s high standards?

Regards.

hamidm2, thank you for your compliment. However, please understand when I say that anyone`s family reputation is not more sacrosant than the Prophet of Islam and his family.

GT must understand that living in ``free`` societies does not mean you can call anyone`s mother a whore and get away with it. The example is right here. I did. So have a number of other interactors including hamidm for a long time. Do you think there must be a line drawn `somewhere`?

In any event, I think SR, being one of the founders of Chowk, is right in his #58 that Chowk has survived inspite of the interactors only due to the stubbornness of its owners. However, it has been a failed experiment even though chowk-staff claims it is starting to bend minds, shape opinions and influence change. Where? I don`t see it.

The divisions here are just too great. Almost 100% hindus here do not have a viewpoint at all, but only come here with an agenda to ridicule and abuse. #77 below is an example. The only serious hindu commentators have left chowk long ago.

So, I think the only way is to either make this site subscription only, or to shut it down altogether and go home in peace. The only learning experience on chowk left now is gallum-galoch.

If chowk-staff has a better idea, I`ld like to hear about it.

Re: # 76

aisha sarwari

``if numbers were the yardstick India would be the most sucessful country in the world. ``

not yet. china is still ahead of it.

so wait for another 20 years before you use the above sentence.

Re: # 85
DM-Sir: Sat Sri Akaal,
I like your suggestion, but please know that many Chowkies are

``Juttiya De Yaar``, they do not understand civilized talk......

#88:

Sat Sri Akal!

I agree with your comment about some people only understanding ``jutti``, and the jutti in this case would be a long-term ban from participating at chowk.

#85 by dost-mittar

I`m not sure what you`re referring to DM, but I assume you mean the exchange I was having with you on the India-Myth board at the same time that all this vitriole was flying on the other two boards with the undersigned as the major participant.

Sure, it`s a good idea. Chowk staff, please be reminded.

DM

“How about reminding chowk about abusing posts/posters while maintaining one`s high standards?

How about insults like “you idiot,” “pukistan,” “Captain Clueless,” mutilating peoples’ names and nicks, attacking others’ deep-seated religious beliefs and revered figures, attacking communities? How many times you want to run to Chowk Staff saying mommy, mommy...

Re: # 86

You said, ``Almost 100% hindus here do not have a viewpoint at all, but only come here with an agenda to ridicule and abuse. #77 below is an example.``

---

#77 is right. But I am not Hindu. Like you, I am a Muslim, except that I don`t come from where you do -- the global terrorist hub -- Pakistan.

The title of this article reminds me of a joke, which goes:

Man 1: ``how many siblings you are?``

Man2: ``We are 9 brothers``

Man 1: ``achcha, agar 10 hotay tau kia ukhaR laitay``

Zeemax,
You know nothing about me, Yes I have issues with Manto and his wife, Manto called me a liar etc, and is it only the Hindus who are abusive??????

Re: # 86

zeemax,

.......can you point to any instance where i have called anyone`s mother or, for that matter, any female or male member of his/her family a whore ? ......... i don`t think so ...

.......... as for the prophet`s family i might have accused them of treachery, trickery and nepotism, but i don`t think i accused them of immoral behavior (they followed the societal norms and standards at that time) .......... however, i have called the pious four the `abominable four` because they set the precedent for nepotism and bloody transfer of power that plagues the muslims to this day .......... i think abominable is the right word to describe those charlatans .....

........ but i would really appreciate it if you could point out where i called somone`s mother a whore so that i can apologize to them (not that i think there is anything wrong with being a whore - the inhabitants of heera mandi are perhaps the most honorable people in pakistan today)

godot #91 (and zeemax):

I agree that chowk staff`s inability to take appropriate action results in people taking ``law`` into their own hands. But perhaps more of those who want to see civilised behaviour volunteer to monitor boards (though I don`t know if chowk would accept such volunteer help).

I do not personally like terms like Pukistan, puki, idiot or hinjoos; I would note however that some of these terms (e.g., clueless) would be quite acceptable in a print media.
I also feel that religions are like ideologies; so it is as valid for people to criticise/ridicule religion/religions as it is to criticise capitalism or communism. Even some holy books do not respect other people`s beliefs, so why should us mere mortals be expected to do so? Same goes for countries in my opinion, but not its people. So, I have no problem in anyone ridiculing Israel, Zionism or even Judaism but not Jews. Yes, some people`s feelings are hurt when ideologies or icons dear to their hearts are ridiculed (e`g, Gandhi, Jinnah, Nanak, Ram, Jesus, Mohammad), but those people should avoid forums where religion and religious figures are discussed, just as people who do not like naked pictures would stay away from pornographic literature.

DM

You are very confused as to which insults should be allowed. This is what Chowk`s Interact! guideline says which is on a permanent display at the top of the interact text box:

``We encourage all to participate in discussions. All we ask you to be is civil. If your post includes words or masked references that are offensive, crude, repugnant, or obscene, your post will be duly deleted.``

Does ``civil” include ridiculing religious beliefs? Does it include ``captain clueless``? For you it obviously does. For me it doesn’t. How do you suppose I will respond to that provocation? I don’t take these insults lightly, hence I want “my” freedom to respond in a way I see fit…there goes the line you are so desperately trying to draw.

interesing - Chowk is into its tenth year. and the only topic that is being discussed in all seriouslness, including by perfectly fine people, long-standing posters like dost-mittar, hamidm is ``gaali galooch``.

This problem could/should/can-yet-be solved in two minutes if Chowk Staff would start enforcing their guidelines. We could then move on to something more interesting things to discuss. Chowk Staff has made the classic mistake of trying to solve what is essentially a management problem through technical solutions alone. The ``technical solution`` here being to add the ``set reading options`` - which is useless.

What Chowk Staff needs to do is to realize that while the abusive ``discussions`` may attract the largest number of posts, they also have kept Chowk stagnant in terms of growth in numbers of participants. I think there are very few Chowk posters who would think this site worthy of a visit from one`s family members or friends. And so, it has lost out in any but a handful of us ``chowk junkies`` plus the unemployed or underemployed programmers etc. whose concept of social interaction is to abuse and insult.

#95 by hamidm2

Hamid, of-course you understand that calling someone`s mother a whore was used figuratively. Many things you have said can be equated to that.

Name calling is when you call the revered `Suhaba e Karam` charlatans. Discussion is when you don`t call them names, but provide arguments establishing when they displayed such behaviours. I`ld be glad to have such a discussion. Not here of-course.

godot: greetings. responding to an insult with an insult may lower your blood pressure, but it does nothing to improve the quality of discussion on chowk.

Re: # 96

dost-mittar,

...... i am glad you think the term ``horrible hindoo`` is acceptable as is ``pathetic paki`` :) .......... somtimes these names can be used as terms of endearment in our common cuss culture - it all depends upon the occasion, tone and inflection .......... it is kind of like african americans affectionately calling each other `nigga` ............... besides, how else would you describe a head-wagging, heeng-eating creature clad in a dhoti stuck at the top of a plam tree collecting todi ?

I think the only sensible advice that has come out of this thread is from DM in #96 when he makes an analogy with the pornography. As the proverb goes- the birds of a feather flock together- we are here because we are just like each other. Even if some of us here rise above this dump, they still belong to the dump. In other words, I do not see a value added contribution of free speech in betterment of human mind and spirit.

godot:

I would draw the same line that an editor of a print media would. What`s wrong with that?

hamidm #101 there are people on chowk - notably Subroto - who have shown that one can be really witty and funny without being abusive at all. Or like you, who can get away with terms like ``orrible indoo`` or ``abduls`` without offending most people and who dont cross teh line to actually become abusive. Unfortunately, too many posters are not as gifted as you or Subroto.

further to # 102

And seriously this thought has scared the shit out of me that after 7 years i am still at the mental level of chowk - seven years of precious life are wasted, taking part in a failed experiment.

DM

``I would draw the same line that an editor of a print media would.``

Which print media? Economist, New Yorker, WSJ, NYT, Financial Times, LAT, WP, Guardian, Independent? Do you think any one of them allow the religious ridicule seen at Chowk? Or they will allow one reader to call another reader “captain clueless”?

Which print publication are you referring to that has the guideline that you seem to be suggesting for Chowk?

Hmmm....subroto ... you mean like this one?

#8 A New Middle East on July 30, 2006
I too killed yesterday.
Blood