Mission Accomplished II
Mohammad Gill August 16, 2006
#317 Posted by saharanpuri on August 26, 2006 5:34:46 am
Competitive Massacre
Posted Monday, Sep. 8, 1947
While the orchestra at Lahore`s Falett`s Hotel played quietly for dancing, European guests drank cocktails on the moonlit terrace. Beyond earshot of the music, whole blocks of buildings lay gutted. Streets were bare and silent. Over the deserted railroad station the smell of corpses hung.
One-seventh of Lahore, capital of the Punjab, had been destroyed. Scores of nearby towns and villages had been razed. War—or rather, competitive massacre—between Moslems and Sikhs had reached a pitch of horror that made the Indian Mutiny of 1857 look like a mere street brawl. In two weeks, between 40,000 and 150,000 people had been killed in the Punjab. Most of the bodies were too hacked and charred to be recognized. At least a million were homeless.
``Never during two wars have I seen such sights as I have seen these last two days,`` said a middle-aged British colonel at Lahore airport. ``All those atrocity yarns we used to hear, such as Germans cutting Belgian children`s hands off and raping and then killing women, have suddenly come true in the Punjab during the last week.``
``The Joy of Fraternization.`` For months the Punjab`s communal hatred had been boiling up into slaughter. A previous climax came last spring when hundreds were killed in riots there (TIME, March 17). In mid-August the partition of the Punjab between India and Pakistan left 1.6 of the 3.8 million Sikhs in the province under Moslem rule; at least twice as many Moslems remained on the Indian side of the border in a new East Punjab state.
The Sikhs are an offshoot of the Hindu religion; they organized 300 years ago to resist militantly Moslem oppression. The British had used the warlike Sikhs extensively, giving them land and offices, especially in the fertile, predominantly Moslem West Punjab. In consequence, the Moslems hate Sikhs far more than they do Hindus.
The rest of India was relatively quiet. In once turbulent Calcutta, Mohandas K. Gandhi, still striving for Hindu-Moslem unity, was able to write of the situation there: ``One might almost say the joy of fraternization is leaping up from hour to hour.``
There was no fraternization in the Punjab. At Amritsar, on the Indian side of the border, organized gangs of Sikhs had exterminated or driven out the Moslem minority population (150,000). Moslems in Lahore and other Pakistan border regions retaliated against the Hindus and Sikhs there.
Mohamed Ali Jinnah, who had conceived Pakistan in hatred and was now its president and undisputed boss, sent to the West Punjab as governor his faithful follower, the Khan of Momdot. The bland, moonfaced Khan had served four years in the Punjab Legislative Assembly without opening his mouth. When he got to the West Punjab, he acted. With his province literally in flames, the Khan of Momdot relaxed regulations that had restricted the carrying of firearms; he also decreed that every man could wear a sword, provided it was covered.
Some of his subordinates went further. The Moslem deputy commissioner of one of the Western Punjab districts mourned a son killed on the Indian side of the border. Said he to the young Moslems: ``You have full liberty to go the limit.
Take revenge as you like, but if there is one Hindu or Sikh left alive in my district after you are through, I swear to kill them myself.``
The Canal Turned Pink. TIME Correspondent Robert Neville flew over the area last week, then talked with refugees and correspondents fleeing from the carnage. Neville cabled:
``Just flying over the Punjab today with a landing here & there gives a feeling that terrible things have happened below. The number of smoking villages that can be counted from Ambala up to Lahore must be at least 150. Here & there can be seen a big town like Sialkot and Gujranwala, where charred black districts tell the story that here the property of one entire community was wiped out.
``The panorama of West Punjab seems even worse. In hitherto peaceful districts like Montgomery and Lyallpur there is not one town which has not been a battlefield. There is no bazaar which has not been burned out. Streams of refugees can be seen approaching all bridges, and over some roads they form virtual convoys miles long. On a ten-mile stretch of road leading to the big bridge over the Sutlej River into Pakistan, there must have been 100,000 people, most of them walking beside bullock carts piled high with their sole possessions.
``At Lahore`s Central Station, Sikh and Hindu refugees from North or West Punjab were mobbed on the platform, often stabbed to death and their few belongings looted. A major incident involved a big convoy carrying perhaps 1,000 from Sialkot to Amritsar. The convoy was stopped and attacked at the Ravi River bridge. Hundreds were stabbed to death and other hundreds wounded.
``Refugees from Lyallpur in West Punjab say that so many Sikhs and Hindus were murdered and their bodies thrown into the canal that the canal actually had a pinkish color for a day after. Moslem refugees told how Sikhs stripped and paraded Moslem women through the streets, raped them and then killed them. British correspondents reported having seen dead, naked women lying about villages of the Amritsar district.``
A Look of Satisfaction. ``Although railway administrations of both Dominions have doggedly tried to keep a skeleton schedule going, they have now given up. For days on end no trains arrived in Delhi without having been attacked and looted practically all along the route.
``Near Jullundur, a band of Sikhs held up a train, methodically searched all compartments and pulled out 17 Moslems, whom they beheaded on the platform. Most amazing of all was the look of bland satisfaction on the faces of these young Sikh men, their hands dripping blood, their clothes smeared with blood, as they stood and grinned at their handiwork while the train finally pulled out. The only Moslems who escaped on this trip were two who were hidden by two British officers under their baggage.
``A British correspondent traveling in the opposite direction through this territory saw half a dozen lying stabbed on the Lahore platform, slowly dying without any help being given. Later that night, on a small siding south of Amritsar, a band of Sikhs entered his compartment and before his eyes beheaded a Moslem apparently trying to travel disguised as a Hindu. (For identification, both sides use the tried and true means of seeing whether there has been circumcision. Moslems always circumcize, the Hindus and Sikhs practically never.)
``A member of the U.S. Embassy arrived in Lahore from Delhi with another tale of horror. Reaching the small station of Okara, near Montgomery, he found the station platform utterly deserted except for several hundred dead Hindus and Sikhs lying around the platform, apparently slaughtered only a few hours before while waiting for the train to escape. All these people were workers in a textile mill which had been attacked by Moslems. Their bodies were mostly stripped and in several instances limbs had been torn from the bodies. The wife of a British textile factory manager told how a Moslem mob had attacked the Hindu and Sikh workers in another factory. When Moslems broke into the ground floor, the Sikhs slashed the throats of their own wives, and afterwards tried to fight through themselves. All were killed.``
Authorities were utterly unable to cope with the situation. In many cases both Sikh and Moslem police had participated in the riots. British soldiers, present in the Punjab, were not allowed to interfere under the arrangements now in force for Indian independence.
No Plans. For the homeless, crippled refugees, no one had anticipated relief measures. In New Delhi a penniless Hindu woman from the West Punjab clutched her two children, told of her husband`s murder by Moslems. ``Don`t ask her about her plans,`` cautioned a welfare official, ``she hasn`t any and neither have we.``
The rioting was breaking down railroad traffic between parts of India and Pakistan. Unless it was soon restored, both nations, especially Pakistan, would be economically crippled. Fearing that the Punjab rioting would spread, millions of Hindus and Moslems prepared to cross borders in a transfer of population greater than Europe had ever seen.
In his new capital, Karachi, Jinnah preached that ``restraint is necessary.`` However, the fires of communal hatred, which he had fanned for 20 years, were burning too brightly in the Punjab to be easily stifled. They might spread
From the Sep. 8, 1947 issue of TIME magazine
Posted Monday, Sep. 8, 1947
While the orchestra at Lahore`s Falett`s Hotel played quietly for dancing, European guests drank cocktails on the moonlit terrace. Beyond earshot of the music, whole blocks of buildings lay gutted. Streets were bare and silent. Over the deserted railroad station the smell of corpses hung.
One-seventh of Lahore, capital of the Punjab, had been destroyed. Scores of nearby towns and villages had been razed. War—or rather, competitive massacre—between Moslems and Sikhs had reached a pitch of horror that made the Indian Mutiny of 1857 look like a mere street brawl. In two weeks, between 40,000 and 150,000 people had been killed in the Punjab. Most of the bodies were too hacked and charred to be recognized. At least a million were homeless.
``Never during two wars have I seen such sights as I have seen these last two days,`` said a middle-aged British colonel at Lahore airport. ``All those atrocity yarns we used to hear, such as Germans cutting Belgian children`s hands off and raping and then killing women, have suddenly come true in the Punjab during the last week.``
``The Joy of Fraternization.`` For months the Punjab`s communal hatred had been boiling up into slaughter. A previous climax came last spring when hundreds were killed in riots there (TIME, March 17). In mid-August the partition of the Punjab between India and Pakistan left 1.6 of the 3.8 million Sikhs in the province under Moslem rule; at least twice as many Moslems remained on the Indian side of the border in a new East Punjab state.
The Sikhs are an offshoot of the Hindu religion; they organized 300 years ago to resist militantly Moslem oppression. The British had used the warlike Sikhs extensively, giving them land and offices, especially in the fertile, predominantly Moslem West Punjab. In consequence, the Moslems hate Sikhs far more than they do Hindus.
The rest of India was relatively quiet. In once turbulent Calcutta, Mohandas K. Gandhi, still striving for Hindu-Moslem unity, was able to write of the situation there: ``One might almost say the joy of fraternization is leaping up from hour to hour.``
There was no fraternization in the Punjab. At Amritsar, on the Indian side of the border, organized gangs of Sikhs had exterminated or driven out the Moslem minority population (150,000). Moslems in Lahore and other Pakistan border regions retaliated against the Hindus and Sikhs there.
Mohamed Ali Jinnah, who had conceived Pakistan in hatred and was now its president and undisputed boss, sent to the West Punjab as governor his faithful follower, the Khan of Momdot. The bland, moonfaced Khan had served four years in the Punjab Legislative Assembly without opening his mouth. When he got to the West Punjab, he acted. With his province literally in flames, the Khan of Momdot relaxed regulations that had restricted the carrying of firearms; he also decreed that every man could wear a sword, provided it was covered.
Some of his subordinates went further. The Moslem deputy commissioner of one of the Western Punjab districts mourned a son killed on the Indian side of the border. Said he to the young Moslems: ``You have full liberty to go the limit.
Take revenge as you like, but if there is one Hindu or Sikh left alive in my district after you are through, I swear to kill them myself.``
The Canal Turned Pink. TIME Correspondent Robert Neville flew over the area last week, then talked with refugees and correspondents fleeing from the carnage. Neville cabled:
``Just flying over the Punjab today with a landing here & there gives a feeling that terrible things have happened below. The number of smoking villages that can be counted from Ambala up to Lahore must be at least 150. Here & there can be seen a big town like Sialkot and Gujranwala, where charred black districts tell the story that here the property of one entire community was wiped out.
``The panorama of West Punjab seems even worse. In hitherto peaceful districts like Montgomery and Lyallpur there is not one town which has not been a battlefield. There is no bazaar which has not been burned out. Streams of refugees can be seen approaching all bridges, and over some roads they form virtual convoys miles long. On a ten-mile stretch of road leading to the big bridge over the Sutlej River into Pakistan, there must have been 100,000 people, most of them walking beside bullock carts piled high with their sole possessions.
``At Lahore`s Central Station, Sikh and Hindu refugees from North or West Punjab were mobbed on the platform, often stabbed to death and their few belongings looted. A major incident involved a big convoy carrying perhaps 1,000 from Sialkot to Amritsar. The convoy was stopped and attacked at the Ravi River bridge. Hundreds were stabbed to death and other hundreds wounded.
``Refugees from Lyallpur in West Punjab say that so many Sikhs and Hindus were murdered and their bodies thrown into the canal that the canal actually had a pinkish color for a day after. Moslem refugees told how Sikhs stripped and paraded Moslem women through the streets, raped them and then killed them. British correspondents reported having seen dead, naked women lying about villages of the Amritsar district.``
A Look of Satisfaction. ``Although railway administrations of both Dominions have doggedly tried to keep a skeleton schedule going, they have now given up. For days on end no trains arrived in Delhi without having been attacked and looted practically all along the route.
``Near Jullundur, a band of Sikhs held up a train, methodically searched all compartments and pulled out 17 Moslems, whom they beheaded on the platform. Most amazing of all was the look of bland satisfaction on the faces of these young Sikh men, their hands dripping blood, their clothes smeared with blood, as they stood and grinned at their handiwork while the train finally pulled out. The only Moslems who escaped on this trip were two who were hidden by two British officers under their baggage.
``A British correspondent traveling in the opposite direction through this territory saw half a dozen lying stabbed on the Lahore platform, slowly dying without any help being given. Later that night, on a small siding south of Amritsar, a band of Sikhs entered his compartment and before his eyes beheaded a Moslem apparently trying to travel disguised as a Hindu. (For identification, both sides use the tried and true means of seeing whether there has been circumcision. Moslems always circumcize, the Hindus and Sikhs practically never.)
``A member of the U.S. Embassy arrived in Lahore from Delhi with another tale of horror. Reaching the small station of Okara, near Montgomery, he found the station platform utterly deserted except for several hundred dead Hindus and Sikhs lying around the platform, apparently slaughtered only a few hours before while waiting for the train to escape. All these people were workers in a textile mill which had been attacked by Moslems. Their bodies were mostly stripped and in several instances limbs had been torn from the bodies. The wife of a British textile factory manager told how a Moslem mob had attacked the Hindu and Sikh workers in another factory. When Moslems broke into the ground floor, the Sikhs slashed the throats of their own wives, and afterwards tried to fight through themselves. All were killed.``
Authorities were utterly unable to cope with the situation. In many cases both Sikh and Moslem police had participated in the riots. British soldiers, present in the Punjab, were not allowed to interfere under the arrangements now in force for Indian independence.
No Plans. For the homeless, crippled refugees, no one had anticipated relief measures. In New Delhi a penniless Hindu woman from the West Punjab clutched her two children, told of her husband`s murder by Moslems. ``Don`t ask her about her plans,`` cautioned a welfare official, ``she hasn`t any and neither have we.``
The rioting was breaking down railroad traffic between parts of India and Pakistan. Unless it was soon restored, both nations, especially Pakistan, would be economically crippled. Fearing that the Punjab rioting would spread, millions of Hindus and Moslems prepared to cross borders in a transfer of population greater than Europe had ever seen.
In his new capital, Karachi, Jinnah preached that ``restraint is necessary.`` However, the fires of communal hatred, which he had fanned for 20 years, were burning too brightly in the Punjab to be easily stifled. They might spread
From the Sep. 8, 1947 issue of TIME magazine
reply to this interact
write a new interact
add to favorites
flag objectionable content
#316 Posted by krishna_abcd on August 23, 2006 3:19:13 pm
#315 by Salim_Chauhan
[Krishna,
I am amazed by the amount of life left in you as you frolic through this dying forum. :)]
Actually I read very few of the posts nowadays, because I don`t have much time.
[2. The Indian economy is solid at the grassroots level - even though the people at the bottom may have to chew grass to survive. :) ]
I said ``Because the public attitude at the grassroots level has changed``. I did not say that the economy is solid at the grassroots level. :)
[3. The Urdu language (as heard in Bollywood movies and NOT in samachars of Door Darshan) is basically Hindi and takes its origins from Sanskrit - and not understanding the samachars is my own fault for not knowing Urdu very well. :) ]
I`m sure you are attempting scathing sarcasm here, but I missed it.
[4. Turkey is not a democratic country. It is an Islamic country begging the EU into accepting it as a democracy. If it were not for informed Indians like Krishna Sahib, the Europeans would be hoodwinked by these fanatics.]
Wrong, they would not under ANY circumstances.
[5. The Turkish military really consists of Knights Templar - Crusaders who are always ready to take on the Islamic Jihadists. :) ]
They are not crusaders - they just want a seat at their table. :)
[Krishna,
I am amazed by the amount of life left in you as you frolic through this dying forum. :)]
Actually I read very few of the posts nowadays, because I don`t have much time.
[2. The Indian economy is solid at the grassroots level - even though the people at the bottom may have to chew grass to survive. :) ]
I said ``Because the public attitude at the grassroots level has changed``. I did not say that the economy is solid at the grassroots level. :)
[3. The Urdu language (as heard in Bollywood movies and NOT in samachars of Door Darshan) is basically Hindi and takes its origins from Sanskrit - and not understanding the samachars is my own fault for not knowing Urdu very well. :) ]
I`m sure you are attempting scathing sarcasm here, but I missed it.
[4. Turkey is not a democratic country. It is an Islamic country begging the EU into accepting it as a democracy. If it were not for informed Indians like Krishna Sahib, the Europeans would be hoodwinked by these fanatics.]
Wrong, they would not under ANY circumstances.
[5. The Turkish military really consists of Knights Templar - Crusaders who are always ready to take on the Islamic Jihadists. :) ]
They are not crusaders - they just want a seat at their table. :)
#315 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on August 23, 2006 1:17:51 pm
#314 Krishna_abcd,
Krishna,
I am amazed by the amount of life left in you as you frolic through this dying forum. :)
OK, here goes:
1. Yes, India is a major power in the world - anything to satiate the little Napoleons. :)
2. The Indian economy is solid at the grassroots level - even though the people at the bottom may have to chew grass to survive. :)
3. The Urdu language (as heard in Bollywood movies and NOT in samachars of Door Darshan) is basically Hindi and takes its origins from Sanskrit - and not understanding the samachars is my own fault for not knowing Urdu very well. :)
4. Turkey is not a democratic country. It is an Islamic country begging the EU into accepting it as a democracy. If it were not for informed Indians like Krishna Sahib, the Europeans would be hoodwinked by these fanatics.
5. The Turkish military really consists of Knights Templar - Crusaders who are always ready to take on the Islamic Jihadists. :)
Peace.
Krishna,
I am amazed by the amount of life left in you as you frolic through this dying forum. :)
OK, here goes:
1. Yes, India is a major power in the world - anything to satiate the little Napoleons. :)
2. The Indian economy is solid at the grassroots level - even though the people at the bottom may have to chew grass to survive. :)
3. The Urdu language (as heard in Bollywood movies and NOT in samachars of Door Darshan) is basically Hindi and takes its origins from Sanskrit - and not understanding the samachars is my own fault for not knowing Urdu very well. :)
4. Turkey is not a democratic country. It is an Islamic country begging the EU into accepting it as a democracy. If it were not for informed Indians like Krishna Sahib, the Europeans would be hoodwinked by these fanatics.
5. The Turkish military really consists of Knights Templar - Crusaders who are always ready to take on the Islamic Jihadists. :)
Peace.
#314 Posted by krishna_abcd on August 23, 2006 12:18:57 pm
#250 by Salim_Chauhan
[Now you are talking like the ex-Eye Racki Minister of Disinformation. Yes, ``India Shining,`` and all that other stuff is getting old and stale. When the elephant stops shitting, the dung beetle starves - just remember that. Too much jingoism is not good for the eyes. ]
USA is just ONE of the many countries India does business with. While it may gladden your Islamic heart to compare India to a dung beetle, India is actually a major power in the world that cannot be taken down by any foreign power - with conventional force or otherwise. And the Indian economic progress is unstoppable. Because the public attitude at the grassroots level has changed.
[What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? The fact is that Urdu, meaning ``military`` in Turkish, uses Hindustani as its base for grammar, with heavy usage of Farsi, Arabic, and some Turkish vocabulary. You cannot speak Urdu without the Arabic and Farsi words - the language of the ``samachar`` on Jee TV is one language and the one in Bollywood movies is another - because I don`t understand the former, while the latter is spoken in my Paki family on a daily basis. But enought of that. You know exactly what I am saying. My point was that for your own good, please do not copy Paki foreign policy. ]
I can take a language, say English, give it a name like ``IllahUllahUddin``, meaning ``Camel Dung`` in Turkish or Moroccan or Sudanese, generously substitute English words with Persian, Arabic and Turkish, and it would STILL remain a descendent of English, linguistically speaking.
[So what? BJP was the majority and ruling party of India. The neo-cons can count on the support of the right-wing fundo whacko evangelists who may account for a whopping 30% of the voting population. Turkey is a democracy and those who prefer a more ``Muslim`` outlook are allowed to vote just like the secularists. ]
Turkey is not a democratic country. An Islamic majority country can never be democratic.
Check out this BBC article : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/3192647.stm
And just go by the facts, not the opinions.
Here`s an extract:
Since the 1970s there have been a series of Muslim political parties, the latest of which, Justice and Development, came to power with a big majority last year.
The military view the current prime minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, as an Islamist in disguise.
They have bitter memories of the country`s first Islamist prime minister, Necmettin Erbakan, whom they forced from power in 1997 after only a year in office.
Democracy, eh?
[Turkey wants to join the EU for obvious benefits. However, it`s not ready to pay any price for the admission. I think that Cyprus issue will be the deciding factor. In fact, juding by the euro-based economies and the rising prices in Spain, Greece, Netherlands, and France, I prefer not having the euro. ]
Turkey is at a crossroads - on the one hand, the westernized elite want a seat at the white man`s table, and on the other hand, the Islamic majority want more Islam. Guess what true democracy would yield. :)
[Now you are talking like the ex-Eye Racki Minister of Disinformation. Yes, ``India Shining,`` and all that other stuff is getting old and stale. When the elephant stops shitting, the dung beetle starves - just remember that. Too much jingoism is not good for the eyes. ]
USA is just ONE of the many countries India does business with. While it may gladden your Islamic heart to compare India to a dung beetle, India is actually a major power in the world that cannot be taken down by any foreign power - with conventional force or otherwise. And the Indian economic progress is unstoppable. Because the public attitude at the grassroots level has changed.
[What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? The fact is that Urdu, meaning ``military`` in Turkish, uses Hindustani as its base for grammar, with heavy usage of Farsi, Arabic, and some Turkish vocabulary. You cannot speak Urdu without the Arabic and Farsi words - the language of the ``samachar`` on Jee TV is one language and the one in Bollywood movies is another - because I don`t understand the former, while the latter is spoken in my Paki family on a daily basis. But enought of that. You know exactly what I am saying. My point was that for your own good, please do not copy Paki foreign policy. ]
I can take a language, say English, give it a name like ``IllahUllahUddin``, meaning ``Camel Dung`` in Turkish or Moroccan or Sudanese, generously substitute English words with Persian, Arabic and Turkish, and it would STILL remain a descendent of English, linguistically speaking.
[So what? BJP was the majority and ruling party of India. The neo-cons can count on the support of the right-wing fundo whacko evangelists who may account for a whopping 30% of the voting population. Turkey is a democracy and those who prefer a more ``Muslim`` outlook are allowed to vote just like the secularists. ]
Turkey is not a democratic country. An Islamic majority country can never be democratic.
Check out this BBC article : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/3192647.stm
And just go by the facts, not the opinions.
Here`s an extract:
Since the 1970s there have been a series of Muslim political parties, the latest of which, Justice and Development, came to power with a big majority last year.
The military view the current prime minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, as an Islamist in disguise.
They have bitter memories of the country`s first Islamist prime minister, Necmettin Erbakan, whom they forced from power in 1997 after only a year in office.
Democracy, eh?
[Turkey wants to join the EU for obvious benefits. However, it`s not ready to pay any price for the admission. I think that Cyprus issue will be the deciding factor. In fact, juding by the euro-based economies and the rising prices in Spain, Greece, Netherlands, and France, I prefer not having the euro. ]
Turkey is at a crossroads - on the one hand, the westernized elite want a seat at the white man`s table, and on the other hand, the Islamic majority want more Islam. Guess what true democracy would yield. :)
#313 Posted by krishna_abcd on August 23, 2006 11:55:05 am
#310 by dost-mittar
[tahmed32:
I think that what are you are saying is that the first refers to definition of Islam and the second is the definition of a Muslim.
In any case, I am a convert only to your former definition as it suits me better. :)]
I suspected long ago that this guy`s wife is Muslim. Sure enough.
The penis has wondrous powers of persuation.
Dost-Mitter, you are not a logical, rational guy as you may fancy yourself to be. You are not even your own person. You are the kind most deserving of contempt and derision.
Really.
[tahmed32:
I think that what are you are saying is that the first refers to definition of Islam and the second is the definition of a Muslim.
In any case, I am a convert only to your former definition as it suits me better. :)]
I suspected long ago that this guy`s wife is Muslim. Sure enough.
The penis has wondrous powers of persuation.
Dost-Mitter, you are not a logical, rational guy as you may fancy yourself to be. You are not even your own person. You are the kind most deserving of contempt and derision.
Really.
#312 Posted by sattar2 on August 23, 2006 11:04:08 am
...furthermore ... spirit of ``jihad`` is to struggle against injustice. This struggle does not have to be an armed conflict. There are other, better ways to carry out this struggle ...
#311 Posted by sattar2 on August 23, 2006 11:00:13 am
zeemax (#270)
… I believe that ANY MUSLIM, who does not support Jihad when Muslims are being driven out of their lands and pushed against the wall everywhere, is an `Uncle Tom`. …
This comment is an ill thought out one. According to your definition Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) too is an “Uncle Tom” since when Muslims were being pushed against the wall, he asked them to migrate to foreign lands.
Religious zeal, without intelligence and wisdom leads to dangerous results. On the other board your cousin Urstruly is trying to rationalize suicide bombings. This is sheer insanity …
#310 Posted by dost_mittar on August 23, 2006 10:04:31 am
tahmed32:
I think that what are you are saying is that the first refers to definition of Islam and the second is the definition of a Muslim.
In any case, I am a convert only to your former definition as it suits me better. :)
I think that what are you are saying is that the first refers to definition of Islam and the second is the definition of a Muslim.
In any case, I am a convert only to your former definition as it suits me better. :)
#309 Posted by echoboom on August 23, 2006 2:12:16 am
Western leaders crying wolf: Ridley
Web posted at: 8/23/2006 2:33:20
Source ::: THE PENINSULA
journalist asks Blair to explain extremism
By Mohammed Iqbal
DOHA • The British are wary of their leaders crying wolf about terrorist threats and the recent bomb scare in London seems to be the latest in a series of plot theories. These probably have very little truth to them, says Yvonne Ridley, the British-born journalist, who made news headlines by converting to Islam after she was captured by the Taleban in Afghanistan.
Ridley is currently in Doha at the invitation of the Qatar Guest Centre affiliated to the Sheikh Eid bin Mohammmed Al Thani Charitable Association. In an interview with The Peninsula yesterday, Ridley recounted her terrifying experience with the Taleban and how it finally led her to embrace of Islam.
Her comments on the London terrorist scare came as she was talking about the ``war on terror`` being unleashed by US President George W Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair.
``We have lived up with Irish terrorism for about 30 years. So many times we have heard of our leaders crying wolf about terrorist plots, which finally came to nothing. I believe the latest bomb scare in London is a continuation of this, probably with very little truth in it,`` Ridley said.
``We have been told that 20 Muslims were about to bring 10 American airlines to the ground and surprisingly, about half of them didn`t even have passports. Now they have become vigilant again. We cannot carry even lipstick or face creams in our handbags. Why this fuss only in the airports? If I can carry my lipstick in the bus or in a train, why not in the airport?`` she wondered.
Ridley said recently she had sent an e-mail to Blair asking his definition of extremism. ``I am still waiting for his reply. Now Bush is talking about Islamic fascism. What does he mean? He himself does not know what he talks about,`` she noted.
Ridley, who is now preparing to write a book on Osama bin Laden, was on an undercover assignment in Afghanistan when she was captured by the Taleban.
``It was after 9/11. I sneaked into the Jalalabad region in Afghanistan without a visa or passport, wearing a blue burqa (veil). I was assigned by the Sunday Express to do a humanitarian feature on how the Afghan people, especially women, live under the Taleban regime,`` Ridley said.
She was captured by the Taleban as she was returning to Pakistan using a smuggling route. ``I was in their custody for 10 days. I thought I would be executed as an American spy. On the sixth day, a Muslim cleric came and asked my opinion on Islam. He told me that I would be released if I convert to Islam.``
``I seized that opportunity and promised them that I will study about Islam if I am released. I was kept in their custody for another four days. Finally they kept their word and I kept mine,`` Ridley said.
After returning home she started reading an English translation of the Holy Quran by the famous author, Yousuf Ali.
``I selected some verses about women and it drastically changed my views. Earlier, I was a typical westerner, ignorant about Islam,`` she added.
Ridley felt that the disastrous war on Afghanistan could have been avoided ``if the rest of the world had socially engaged with the Taleban without hidden motives``.
Ridley said she will soon start writing her book on Osama bin Laden, whom she had never met.
``Many people, especially those related to bin Laden have helped with my research. I will write it without fear or favour. Bin Laden is probably one of the most significant Muslims emerged in this period,`` she said.
On the terror attacks, Ridley said, she could not agree with killing of the innocents.
``I cannot differentiate between a suicide bomber and a Stealth bomber. One cannot exist without the other,`` she said, adding that the hegemonic policies of the US to dominate the world is the root cause of this problem.
Web posted at: 8/23/2006 2:33:20
Source ::: THE PENINSULA
 |
| Yvonne Ridley during the interview with The Peninsula. (Salim Matramkot) |
journalist asks Blair to explain extremism
By Mohammed Iqbal
DOHA • The British are wary of their leaders crying wolf about terrorist threats and the recent bomb scare in London seems to be the latest in a series of plot theories. These probably have very little truth to them, says Yvonne Ridley, the British-born journalist, who made news headlines by converting to Islam after she was captured by the Taleban in Afghanistan.
Ridley is currently in Doha at the invitation of the Qatar Guest Centre affiliated to the Sheikh Eid bin Mohammmed Al Thani Charitable Association. In an interview with The Peninsula yesterday, Ridley recounted her terrifying experience with the Taleban and how it finally led her to embrace of Islam.
Her comments on the London terrorist scare came as she was talking about the ``war on terror`` being unleashed by US President George W Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair.
``We have lived up with Irish terrorism for about 30 years. So many times we have heard of our leaders crying wolf about terrorist plots, which finally came to nothing. I believe the latest bomb scare in London is a continuation of this, probably with very little truth in it,`` Ridley said.
``We have been told that 20 Muslims were about to bring 10 American airlines to the ground and surprisingly, about half of them didn`t even have passports. Now they have become vigilant again. We cannot carry even lipstick or face creams in our handbags. Why this fuss only in the airports? If I can carry my lipstick in the bus or in a train, why not in the airport?`` she wondered.
Ridley said recently she had sent an e-mail to Blair asking his definition of extremism. ``I am still waiting for his reply. Now Bush is talking about Islamic fascism. What does he mean? He himself does not know what he talks about,`` she noted.
Ridley, who is now preparing to write a book on Osama bin Laden, was on an undercover assignment in Afghanistan when she was captured by the Taleban.
``It was after 9/11. I sneaked into the Jalalabad region in Afghanistan without a visa or passport, wearing a blue burqa (veil). I was assigned by the Sunday Express to do a humanitarian feature on how the Afghan people, especially women, live under the Taleban regime,`` Ridley said.
She was captured by the Taleban as she was returning to Pakistan using a smuggling route. ``I was in their custody for 10 days. I thought I would be executed as an American spy. On the sixth day, a Muslim cleric came and asked my opinion on Islam. He told me that I would be released if I convert to Islam.``
``I seized that opportunity and promised them that I will study about Islam if I am released. I was kept in their custody for another four days. Finally they kept their word and I kept mine,`` Ridley said.
After returning home she started reading an English translation of the Holy Quran by the famous author, Yousuf Ali.
``I selected some verses about women and it drastically changed my views. Earlier, I was a typical westerner, ignorant about Islam,`` she added.
Ridley felt that the disastrous war on Afghanistan could have been avoided ``if the rest of the world had socially engaged with the Taleban without hidden motives``.
Ridley said she will soon start writing her book on Osama bin Laden, whom she had never met.
``Many people, especially those related to bin Laden have helped with my research. I will write it without fear or favour. Bin Laden is probably one of the most significant Muslims emerged in this period,`` she said.
On the terror attacks, Ridley said, she could not agree with killing of the innocents.
``I cannot differentiate between a suicide bomber and a Stealth bomber. One cannot exist without the other,`` she said, adding that the hegemonic policies of the US to dominate the world is the root cause of this problem.
#308 Posted by bbabu on August 22, 2006 2:45:15 pm
zeemax #279
`` ...that is why we have legal frameworks...
tahmed, please quote me one, just one instance, where US+Israel has obeyed any single tenet of International Law. Just one please.
And, we are not talking about Pakistan. We are talking about the global plight of Muslims right now. ``
Why do Pakistanis care about the global plight of Muslims ?
1. Keep in mind Pakistan has not done agreat job with democracy on its own soil.
2. Pakistan has contributed military units to prop up monarchies in middle east
3. Pakistan has been on of the top five receipients of American military and economic aid.
4. Pakistanis have been associated with unsavory enterprises like Taliban, Al Qaida, BCCI
`` ...that is why we have legal frameworks...
tahmed, please quote me one, just one instance, where US+Israel has obeyed any single tenet of International Law. Just one please.
And, we are not talking about Pakistan. We are talking about the global plight of Muslims right now. ``
Why do Pakistanis care about the global plight of Muslims ?
1. Keep in mind Pakistan has not done agreat job with democracy on its own soil.
2. Pakistan has contributed military units to prop up monarchies in middle east
3. Pakistan has been on of the top five receipients of American military and economic aid.
4. Pakistanis have been associated with unsavory enterprises like Taliban, Al Qaida, BCCI
#307 Posted by tahmed32 on August 22, 2006 12:47:27 pm
dm #305 All you have to do is highlight the beginning part of the sentence from #273 and you would see that there is no contradiction in what I wrote, namely: There is only one Islam, the one in the Quran.
That is, logic would dictate that it is indeed incumbent upon someone who considers himself a muslim to understand it, i.e. the Quran and to act accordingly. And to stop looking to other sources for loopholes in the simple, profound message of the Quran. A message that is easy for a man of character to implement, and exceedingly difficult for a characterless man to implement.
However, one may chose not to study the Quran - and that per se does not condemn one to hell per the message of Islam. That is, as surely you will agree, the Quran makes it clear that muslims have not monopoly on receiving the word of God. Nor is studying the Quran or any holy book either necessary or sufficient to be on the right side of God (which of course is the central message of the Quran that is present in both #268 and #273.
Hope this clarifies. If there had been a contradiction, rest assured I would not have spent the time to find an explanation around it, and would have simply corrected what I wrote.
That is, logic would dictate that it is indeed incumbent upon someone who considers himself a muslim to understand it, i.e. the Quran and to act accordingly. And to stop looking to other sources for loopholes in the simple, profound message of the Quran. A message that is easy for a man of character to implement, and exceedingly difficult for a characterless man to implement.
However, one may chose not to study the Quran - and that per se does not condemn one to hell per the message of Islam. That is, as surely you will agree, the Quran makes it clear that muslims have not monopoly on receiving the word of God. Nor is studying the Quran or any holy book either necessary or sufficient to be on the right side of God (which of course is the central message of the Quran that is present in both #268 and #273.
Hope this clarifies. If there had been a contradiction, rest assured I would not have spent the time to find an explanation around it, and would have simply corrected what I wrote.
#306 Posted by echoboom on August 22, 2006 12:25:06 pm
Another one in the series:
``JUbb GaaND lUGee phatnay
Khairaat lUGee batnay``
tr:
``When the arshole began to rupture
the charity donations skyrocketed``
Voh jin ko kehtaa thha the ``axis-of-Evil``
UunheeN kay PaaoN parRaa hai khuud Devil``
anf look at the graceful confident & grand style of our mulla: Learned man from Qum, Sorbornne, & sundry alma-maters. Fluent in Arabie, Farsi, German, French, english, Urdu and so many other languages.
Speaks Reads & writes all official non-official work in his own language. Not a Ba Ba Blacksheep, a Uniformed Langoor, a toata-mainaa from the Bhonkan-House & Missionaried
education system from the bhoora-slave-lands.
``JUbb GaaND lUGee phatnay
Khairaat lUGee batnay``
tr:
``When the arshole began to rupture
the charity donations skyrocketed``
Voh jin ko kehtaa thha the ``axis-of-Evil``
UunheeN kay PaaoN parRaa hai khuud Devil``
anf look at the graceful confident & grand style of our mulla: Learned man from Qum, Sorbornne, & sundry alma-maters. Fluent in Arabie, Farsi, German, French, english, Urdu and so many other languages.
Speaks Reads & writes all official non-official work in his own language. Not a Ba Ba Blacksheep, a Uniformed Langoor, a toata-mainaa from the Bhonkan-House & Missionaried
education system from the bhoora-slave-lands.
First Published 2006-08-22, Last Updated 2006-08-22 13:53:10  He will be the most senior Iranian to visit US since the Islamic revolution Report: Khatami invited to speak in Washington Washington Post reports US has agreed to issue visa to former Iranian president to speak on ‘the dialogue of civilizations’. WASHINGTON - The United States has agreed to issue a visa for former Iranian president Mohammad Khatami to speak in Washington despite the looming crisis over Iran`s nuclear program, The Washington Post reported Tuesday. Khatami, a reformist cleric who was Iran`s president from 1997 to 2005, would be the most senior Iranian to visit the United States since Washington broke off diplomatic relations following the Islamic revolution and takeover of the US embassy in Tehran in 1979. A State Department spokesman said Tuesday that Khatami had not yet applied for a visa and declined to comment on whether one would be issued to the former Iranian leader. But the Washington Post said the administration of President George W. Bush had already agreed to permit Khatami into the country to speak on ``the dialogue of civilizations`` at an event at the Washington National Cathedral. The newspaper cited officials at the cathedral who were not immediately available to comment on its report. The reported decision to grant a visa to Khatami comes amid high tensions between Washington and Tehran over Iran`s suspected program to develop nuclear weapons. A UN Security Council resolution has given Iran until August 31 to give up uranium enrichment, a process that can produce material for nuclear weapons, or face sanctions. Iran was also due to respond later Tuesday to a package of US-backed initiatives designed to entice it to halt the enrichment and other suspect nuclear activities. Iran`s hardline president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who succeeded Khatami, and other senior officials have signalled Tehran`s intention to ignore the UN ultimatum, though US officials said early Tuesday they were still waiting for an official response. Bush told a press conference Monday that Washington would seek swift sanctions at the UN if Iran fails to meet the August 31 deadline for halting uranium enrichment. Iran insists its nuclear program is for the peaceful production of energy.
#305 Posted by dost_mittar on August 22, 2006 11:43:00 am
tahmed32#273:
...but you have provided two versions yourselves: In your post#268, you said. ``And the message of Islam, as I have said many times on chowk, is simply individual responsibility before God for distinguishing between right and wrong and acting accordingly, without fear or favor of any individual.`` And in #273, you say: ``There is only one Islam, the one in the Quran. And the message is very simple - namely, that it is the individual responsibility before God to understand it and to act accordingly. The addition is important as the former definition does not require any interpretation and acting upon the quranic message. The former leaves some scope on the judgement day for those like me who do not believe in prophets or revelations but the latter damns me to hell eternally.
#304 Posted by mohar11 on August 22, 2006 11:35:29 am
Re: # 301 salim
[.... Israel lost the war with Hezbollah. ...] So what?...
#303 Posted by echoboom on August 22, 2006 11:31:45 am
www.uexpress.com
|
