dost mittar #231 You should know sir that I dont consider these individuals who sing praises to Supreme Deities to be muslim anyway. Reason: God does not accept flattery as a substitute for the great responsibility He has placed on the individual to distinguish between right and wrong, to seek and respect the truth, and to act accordingly.

The beneficiaries for all human endeavor, including playing of music, is humanity. Not gods, goddesses or allah. That is why I was questioning folio`s reference to gods and godesses.

zeemax: I have been called all sorts of things on chowk - invariably when the poster had nothing intelligent to say.

Sincerely,

Uncle Tom

When bombs fail, try humility
Ha Ha Ha typical westernish immorality where Honesty is adopted as best policy..talk about the dark minds from the dark ages.


Now that their Collective Pinnochio noses are being dragged through the sewers of their own creations, the thUggs are already scheming to adopt their classical `` JUbb GaanD lUGGee phaTTnay, Khairaat luGGee bUTTnay``

Khairaat will be bUTTEd, inshaAllah, in ample quantities in their butts, now that the Chinese ambassadors have made the snake sniff their arseholes ( saanp soonGh gaya hai..no comment Bush-Rumsy-Wolfo canines to date).

When bombs fail, try humility: abay Ulloo kay patthho we know you inside out now, we got higher education from you remember Uulloos. You think we were learning to serve you? You backward (apt word. laal Laal gaal fame) Baboons!

---

The Sunday Time.. Comment
The Sunday Times
August 13, 2006+ Post a Comment

It’s time for Bush and Blair to try plan B – the humility option

Simon Jenkins

In March 2004 a newly arrived marine officer wandered into the control room of America’s Camp Victory outside Baghdad. He was overawed by the rows of desks tiered as in a movie theatre, each equipped with multiple laptops and surrounded by giant screens.

The screens displayed live pictures from Predator drones showing American convoys and supposed enemy deployments in real time. It was the latest high-tech infantry war, the sort that could not be lost. Within days Falluja exploded and within weeks the Sunni triangle was aflame. It has been aflame ever since.


Five years after September 11, 2001 there is no discernable western policy in the Middle East. As Hezbollah’s rockets rain down on America’s ally Israel and bombers plot their attacks on western airlines, the bold ambitions of George Bush and Tony Blair seem in ruins.

The plan was to create a nexus of stable, democratic, pro-western states as a bulwark against Islamic fanaticism. All news from the region suggests that the policy has failed. Aggressive military intervention, likened by Blair to a crusade, has been halted by civil war in Iraq and rising insurgency in Afghanistan. Everyone outside the “denial bunkers” of the White House and Downing Street knows this to be true.

At some point the American and British governments must emerge from the toxic shock of failure. Fine words about “defeat not an option” and “we shall never walk away” are wormwood. These armies know they are not winning and cannot wait to walk away. American and British troops have somehow to be disengaged from Iraq and Afghanistan and to avoid entrapment in south Lebanon.

There may never be peace in this region but there cannot be one enforced by the West when it is seen as an alien occupier. Iran must be brought on side. Negotiation must open with secular dictators and Islamist democrats alike. Diplomacy in the region must recover its confidence or there will be bloodshed without end.

The failure of the post-9/11 project does not lie just in body bags and death tolls. It does not lie in the funeral dirges of Lebanon and Israel, the bombings in Baghdad and the British Army’s game of cat and mouse in the deserts of Helmand. Failure lies in the madrasahs and training camps of Pakistan, in Afghanistan’s booming poppy crop, in money pouring north from the Gulf to enrich the Taliban and the Baluchi warlords.

It lies in the belief, beamed by propagandists into every Muslim’s home, that America and Britain mean him ill. These peoples can never be “defeated” by the West, any more than were the Pashtun Talibs in 2001, the Sunnis of Falluja in 2004 or Hezbollah now. They draw glory and support from having America as their enemy. They also know that the West is tiring of this fight. They can see the way the wind is blowing.

It is blowing Connecticut’s way. Last week’s primary defeat of Joe Lieberman, the pro-war senator, was (among other things) a clear sign of the Iraqi worm turning. In Vietnam America was defending a free country against an invading dictator and the free world against communism. Having punished the Taliban in Afghanistan and having toppled Saddam Hussein, Americans can no longer see what they are achieving.

Troops in both countries are barely able to defend themselves, let alone bring peace and order to the populace. Besides, it was Donald Rumsfeld (echoing Bush) who in 2002 explicitly eschewed nation building, claiming, “I don’t know people smart enough . . . to tell other countries the kind of arrangements they ought to have to govern themselves.” Inside every neocon is an isolationist bursting to get out.

Hamid Karzai in Kabul is increasingly at odds with the foreign advisers cramming his capital. In Baghdad Nouri al-Maliki, the prime minister, has publicly requested foreign troops to leave everywhere but his capital by the end of the year.

I have always thought that America would decide to leave Iraq before Britain. America has a more responsive democracy and when it speaks government must listen. Its constitution may encourage brinkmanship. Troops are cheered eagerly to war but are soon dragged back from it. For 15 years since the end of the cold war, as Niall Ferguson points out in The Rise and Fall of the American Empire, Washington’s interventionists have tried heavy handedly to police a “unipolar” world and mostly failed.

The British constitution is better suited to imperial outreach. It goes to war under prerogative and can ignore public opinion for years at a stretch. Neither Labour nor Conservative leaderships have reflected growing public scepticism about British policy in Iraq, Afghanistan and the Middle East. Recent ICM and YouGov polls have registered dissatisfaction on all counts. The Tories, trapped by an internal neoconservative fifth column, even appear to favour bombing Iran.

I have no problem with military intervention in principle. The Falklands war was just and the first Gulf war was a rightful resistance to aggression. When land troops were finally sent to respond to a humanitarian disaster in Kosovo this, too, was justified (although technically illegal). There was sense in Blair’s 1999 Chicago speech, despite the neglect of such caveats as feasibility and relevance to national interest. Both the Afghan and Iraqi ventures were ill conceived. They were a rush to arms without thought or planning. Both have led to an appalling toll of death and destruction without bringing the countries stability or security. Their most tragic outcome has been to replace the widespread sympathy for America after 9/11 with a global anti-Americanism. As for Blair’s thesis that these wars have made Britain a safer place, tell that to airline passengers this weekend.

Joseph Nye, the Harvard professor, writing on the paradox of American imperial power, described it as soft or “velvet hegemony”. With stark exceptions it has preferred to remain the “shining city upon the hill”, its potency lying in the magnetism of example. “A country may obtain the outcomes it wants in world politics,” wrote Nye, “because other countries want to follow it . . . admiring its values and aspiring to its level of prosperity and openness.” In 2002, before Iraq, Bush himself championed “non-negotiable demands of human dignity, the rule of law and limits on the absolute power of the state”.
Page 1 || Page 2

Krishna #248
{``And what happens if India gets isolated in the region? The other countries would be the huge losers, not India. India is a rapidly growing economy with a huge market. I think India will do just fine without ANY of its neighbors, thank you. And with neighbors like these, who needs enemies anyway?``}

Now you are talking like the ex-Eye Racki Minister of Disinformation. Yes, ``India Shining,`` and all that other stuff is getting old and stale. When the elephant stops shitting, the dung beetle starves - just remember that. Too much jingoism is not good for the eyes.

{``Wrong again. Pakis have been copying and purveying Indian songs, music and language (Urdu is actually a 100% Sanskrit descendent - with Arabic and Persian words thrown in liberally). ``}

What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? The fact is that Urdu, meaning ``military`` in Turkish, uses Hindustani as its base for grammar, with heavy usage of Farsi, Arabic, and some Turkish vocabulary. You cannot speak Urdu without the Arabic and Farsi words - the language of the ``samachar`` on Jee TV is one language and the one in Bollywood movies is another - because I don`t understand the former, while the latter is spoken in my Paki family on a daily basis. But enought of that. You know exactly what I am saying. My point was that for your own good, please do not copy Paki foreign policy.

{``Evenly divided, eh? 50% of the electorate is a pretty strong constituency. I should think``}

So what? BJP was the majority and ruling party of India. The neo-cons can count on the support of the right-wing fundo whacko evangelists who may account for a whopping 30% of the voting population. Turkey is a democracy and those who prefer a more ``Muslim`` outlook are allowed to vote just like the secularists.

{``Developing some self respect, and stopping to be let into the white man`s club.``}

Turkey wants to join the EU for obvious benefits. However, it`s not ready to pay any price for the admission. I think that Cyprus issue will be the deciding factor. In fact, juding by the euro-based economies and the rising prices in Spain, Greece, Netherlands, and France, I prefer not having the euro.

How Bush got re-elected in 2004, and the rigging plan for 2008.

#241 by Salim_Chauhan

[That`s right. It is Ssscary. By appearing to be thoroughly serving the interests of distant masters, India risks being isolated in the region - much to the advantage of China.]

And what happens if India gets isolated in the region? The other countries would be the huge losers, not India. India is a rapidly growing economy with a huge market. I think India will do just fine without ANY of its neighbors, thank you. And with neighbors like these, who needs enemies anyway?


[As a well-wisher of India and an aspirant of reunification, I don`t want to see Indians accepting macacahood just for a few outsourcing crumbs. ]

I am a great supporter of the Jinnah TNT. Although I am for a complete and thorough implementation of the TNT policy.

[Krishna, my friend. Indians can copy Paki music, Paki songs, and even Paki stories - but please, repeate please, do not copy Paki foreing policy. I say that as a friend of India. ]

Wrong again. Pakis have been copying and purveying Indian songs, music and language (Urdu is actually a 100% Sanskrit descendent - with Arabic and Persian words thrown in liberally).

[You are too far off the mark for an earnest discussion of Turkish politics. Turkish public opinion is quite evenly divided on the religious issue. Moderation will prevail.]

Evenly divided, eh? 50% of the electorate is a pretty strong constituency. I should think.

[Begging is a relative term. ]

:D


[Turkey has many options - including....]

Developing some self respect, and stopping to be let into the white man`s club.

#244 Zee {``The point is, however, that there cannot remain a wide gulf in frequency between the people and their rulers. It is unnatural. Quite unsustainable``}

Zee,
Very well said. Unfortunately, our pusillanimous sages will state that why don`t the people eat matzo balls?

#243 Echoboom {``they never had any other position eversince they graduated from the Blacksheep missionary-position.``}

Echo Bhai, LOL
Are you suggesting that the venerable sages of Chowk have assumed a missionary position leading to a canine posture in the not too distant future? The Potoharis are rapidly becoming Mata Haris right before our eyes.

#243 by echoboom

Quite apt. But in case of at-least hamidm, I feel bad. It reminds me of that Punjabi saying:

``Naaley annhey kolon bund marao, naaley ohnoon ghar we chhad key aao``

#238 by Salim_Chauhan

... one would have to put some spine in the torsos of Mushy, both Abadoolas, Mubarak, and a few others...

All of the above belong somewhere around the category of hamidm and T32, some less, some more, some apologists, some blatant ass-lickers; but all self-serving.

Mush, for example, manufactured all this drama of `Mass murder on an unimaginable scale` by liquid explosives on airliners on Bush`s instruction and Blair went along, waiting for 5 days till 24 arrests were made before announcing the tasting of babymilk bottles, while it could have been done immediately upon information from Pak. But no, they had to wait for Bush`s decision when to announce. As it happens, they still do not have a shred of evidence. The whole thing is a hoax. Watch this Democracynow.org interview of the ex-British Ambassador to Uzbekistan who says it was More Propaganda Than Plot``.

The point is, however, that there cannot remain a wide gulf in frequency between the people and their rulers. It is unnatural. Quite unsustainable. There`s bound to be an upheaval and these rulers will be tossed aside. More Khomeinis? I don`t know ... perhaps.

Re: # 235 Salim_Chauhan
Zee,
Correct! But, why should Tahmed14 and Hamidumdum2 take an ostrich position?

---

Glad you asked.

They are not taking O/P (ostrich position); they never had any other position eversince they graduated from the Blacksheep missionary-position.

Ostrich position has merits:
see no Evil
Hear no Evil
Say no Evil.

Before their heads went into the sands of the Great Arab Sahara, they were heard muttering.
`` Ley lijiyay huzoor bohut sookh rahee hai
`kr deejay laal laal`..Yahee kook rahee hai``

#239 DM Sahib {``And how`s Indian stand different from this?``}

DM Sahib,
The difference is that India`s policy of ``my enema`s enema is my friend`` is too blatant too obvious. Countries in the region recognize how Dubya is playing the Indian card - but don`t forget that US played the Paki card a long long time ago. Western powers have a way with discarding useless cards for better ones.

#240, Krishna_abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz:

Let me answer you point by point too:

[Indians need to watch how they are being perceived within the region ]

Or else what? Pakiland is going to be angry? Iran is going to be upset?

Ssscary!

That`s right. It is Ssscary. By appearing to be thoroughly serving the interests of distant masters, India risks being isolated in the region - much to the advantage of China. As a well-wisher of India and an aspirant of reunification, I don`t want to see Indians accepting macacahood just for a few outsourcing crumbs.

[being Dubya`s pet doesn`t necessarily constitute a long-term foreign policy. ]

Pakiland seems to have done just fine doing that for over half a century. That`s long term, I think.

Krishna, my friend. Indians can copy Paki music, Paki songs, and even Paki stories - but please, repeate please, do not copy Paki foreing policy. I say that as a friend of India.


[Turkey, ever since it became a functioning democracy]

It is not a true democracy. The Islamic parties are suppressed by force. In a truly free election, they would be hard to beat.

You are too far off the mark for an earnest discussion of Turkish politics. Turkish public opinion is quite evenly divided on the religious issue. Moderation will prevail.

[.. It may even tell EU to go fly a kite. ]

Looks like it is exactly the other way round, by the amount of begging it has been doing to be please please please let into the white man`s club, and the amount of cold shoulder it has been getting. :)

Begging is a relative term. Turkey has many options - including forming the pan-Turanian block, rich in energy resources. There are those who prefer burying the hatchet with the Arabs and joining them in earnest. In any case, Cyprus will determine the course. As you may have noticed, Turks don`t get too excited by short-term events such as EU attitude, war on terrorism, and balkanization of eye rack. When you have taken the impact of the Crusades and have reached the gates of Vienna in a counterattack, few things will cause you to panic. It`s all a matter of time and patience.