Psychology of Suicide ’Bombers’
Khalid Sohail August 22, 2006
#419 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on August 27, 2006 2:59:43 pm
Mantolives #416 {``{``BLA are comprised of tribal groups based in the Baluchistan area of Eastern Pakistan``}
Manto Payee,
I was already jughrafiacally confused by the location of Mirpur.
Now, are you telling me that the BLA are a reincarnation of the Mukhti Bahini?
Is this some sort of delayed consequence of the `71 debacle? Things seem to be pointing in that direction anyway. :(
Manto Payee,
I was already jughrafiacally confused by the location of Mirpur.
Now, are you telling me that the BLA are a reincarnation of the Mukhti Bahini?
Is this some sort of delayed consequence of the `71 debacle? Things seem to be pointing in that direction anyway. :(
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#418 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on August 27, 2006 2:59:32 pm
Mantolives #416 {``{``BLA are comprised of tribal groups based in the Baluchistan area of Eastern Pakistan``}
Manto Payee,
I was already jughrafiacally confused by the location of Mirpur.
Now, are you telling me that the BLA are a reincarnation of the Mukhti Bahini?
Is this some sort of delayed consequence of the `71 debacle? Things seem to be pointing in that direction anyway. :(
Manto Payee,
I was already jughrafiacally confused by the location of Mirpur.
Now, are you telling me that the BLA are a reincarnation of the Mukhti Bahini?
Is this some sort of delayed consequence of the `71 debacle? Things seem to be pointing in that direction anyway. :(
#417 Posted by VRV on August 27, 2006 11:50:54 am
As a law abiding resident of Great Britain, I would follow the directive of not supporting Balochistan Liberation Army.
However nobody can stop us from supporting the non-voilent political parties that are working for Baloch integration and independence.
However nobody can stop us from supporting the non-voilent political parties that are working for Baloch integration and independence.
#416 Posted by MantoLives on August 27, 2006 11:41:31 am
Fair warning to Indian residents of Great Britain supporting the Baluch ``liberation`` army
According to the UK home office
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/security/terrorism-and-the-law/terrorism-act/proscribed-groups
Baluchistan Liberation Army (BLA):
BLA are comprised of tribal groups based in the Baluchistan area of Eastern Pakistan, which aims to establish an idependant nation encompassing the Baluch dominated areas of Pakistan, Afghanistan and Iran.
According to the UK home office
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/security/terrorism-and-the-law/terrorism-act/proscribed-groups
Baluchistan Liberation Army (BLA):
BLA are comprised of tribal groups based in the Baluchistan area of Eastern Pakistan, which aims to establish an idependant nation encompassing the Baluch dominated areas of Pakistan, Afghanistan and Iran.
#415 Posted by krishna_abcd on August 27, 2006 10:15:17 am
#413 by HP
[It is so amazing to see these racist, religions, cultures, and the communities abuser so upset at a little personal abuse they get for being racist. Personal abuse is no crime in any society but in every civil society abusing a religion, a race, or the communities is certainly a crime barring of course the khasiland, where people are raised on how much abuse they can hurl on each other and other communities with in their own country and outside of it. ]
This, coming from Hate (``Mumbai blasts was armed resistence``) Pot.
Calling a pedophile a pedophile should be ok in ANY society, and ridiculing a ``religion`` cooked up by a pedophile should be a-ok as well. Listen to AM radio in the US, and what Americans say privately (and increasingly, more publicly) about Pakiland and Islam. Americans haven`t had the history where they have had to co-exist with a murderous religion for over a thousand years. Spain, which experienced a little bit of it, reversed the Islamic conversions by force at the first opportunity and is now happily 94% Catholic.
It is always interesting to see Pakis lecture you on morals and ethics. Kind of like Pakis fighting for ``democracy`` in Kashmir.
No ``articles`` by ``liberated`` Paki writers on the recent ``democratic negotiations`` with Bugti on this ``uncompromisingly independent`` Paki web site yet. Afraid of smart bombs raining down on Chowk editors?
:)
[It is so amazing to see these racist, religions, cultures, and the communities abuser so upset at a little personal abuse they get for being racist. Personal abuse is no crime in any society but in every civil society abusing a religion, a race, or the communities is certainly a crime barring of course the khasiland, where people are raised on how much abuse they can hurl on each other and other communities with in their own country and outside of it. ]
This, coming from Hate (``Mumbai blasts was armed resistence``) Pot.
Calling a pedophile a pedophile should be ok in ANY society, and ridiculing a ``religion`` cooked up by a pedophile should be a-ok as well. Listen to AM radio in the US, and what Americans say privately (and increasingly, more publicly) about Pakiland and Islam. Americans haven`t had the history where they have had to co-exist with a murderous religion for over a thousand years. Spain, which experienced a little bit of it, reversed the Islamic conversions by force at the first opportunity and is now happily 94% Catholic.
It is always interesting to see Pakis lecture you on morals and ethics. Kind of like Pakis fighting for ``democracy`` in Kashmir.
No ``articles`` by ``liberated`` Paki writers on the recent ``democratic negotiations`` with Bugti on this ``uncompromisingly independent`` Paki web site yet. Afraid of smart bombs raining down on Chowk editors?
:)
#414 Posted by zeemax on August 26, 2006 11:05:31 pm
It is a sign of khasi-macacaism that they turn against their very own at the silghtest hint of display of a modicem of sympathy for Muslims. Following is a case in point:
And it is interesting that my previous two nicks were banned, but zeemax`s was not, ..... Muslims are shamelessly hypocritical. (KrishnaABCD_Macaca)
Of-course he fails to acknowledge that the person with banning/un-banning power is no other than chowk-staff, and chowk-staff is no other than a committed Sikh lady, who has also been subject to abuse on UP for the very reason.
Refer to SR`s article re ` Who is this mysterious chowk-staff`.
Then, there is the subject of Dost-Mittar who is being reviled just because his wife is a Muslim. And you guys protest at dragging families in?
Pathetic.
And it is interesting that my previous two nicks were banned, but zeemax`s was not, ..... Muslims are shamelessly hypocritical. (KrishnaABCD_Macaca)
Of-course he fails to acknowledge that the person with banning/un-banning power is no other than chowk-staff, and chowk-staff is no other than a committed Sikh lady, who has also been subject to abuse on UP for the very reason.
Refer to SR`s article re ` Who is this mysterious chowk-staff`.
Then, there is the subject of Dost-Mittar who is being reviled just because his wife is a Muslim. And you guys protest at dragging families in?
Pathetic.
#413 Posted by HP on August 26, 2006 7:51:36 pm
It is so amazing to see these racist, religions, cultures, and the communities abuser so upset at a little personal abuse they get for being racist. Personal abuse is no crime in any society but in every civil society abusing a religion, a race, or the communities is certainly a crime barring of course the khasiland, where people are raised on how much abuse they can hurl on each other and other communities with in their own country and outside of it.
#412 Posted by krishna_abcd on August 26, 2006 3:14:27 pm
#375 by AlephNull
[It amuses me to see Paki men of mature years completely lose their self-control, descend into foul-mouthed incoherence, fish out their favourite prostheses, issue impotent threats, and in general make public spectacles of themselves. They will then blame their meltdowns on ‘hatemongers’ like arjun and on the ‘Indian Propaganda Machine’; ask for those who they claimed provoked their hilarious outbursts, to be banned or expelled from the site, or in other ways “put in their place”, etc. etc. They will never face up to their own lack of serenity. ]
Also, it is interesting to see creatures like zeemax (with his pornographic posts), behram (with his posts from the gutter), HP (``Mumbai Blasts was a case of armed resistence``) be so popular amongst the Paki ``intelligentsia``. And it is interesting that my previous two nicks were banned, but zeemax`s was not, even after those appalling low-class posts. Muslims are shamelessly hypocritical.
I don`t think there is any way to fix this muslim problem worldwide other than mass conversions. There needs to be a defining confrontation of some sort between Muslims and non-Muslims to make this happen. Let`s hope this happens without too much bloodshed. For after all, Muslims are Muslims because they were born Muslim. Not their fault, really.
[It amuses me to see Paki men of mature years completely lose their self-control, descend into foul-mouthed incoherence, fish out their favourite prostheses, issue impotent threats, and in general make public spectacles of themselves. They will then blame their meltdowns on ‘hatemongers’ like arjun and on the ‘Indian Propaganda Machine’; ask for those who they claimed provoked their hilarious outbursts, to be banned or expelled from the site, or in other ways “put in their place”, etc. etc. They will never face up to their own lack of serenity. ]
Also, it is interesting to see creatures like zeemax (with his pornographic posts), behram (with his posts from the gutter), HP (``Mumbai Blasts was a case of armed resistence``) be so popular amongst the Paki ``intelligentsia``. And it is interesting that my previous two nicks were banned, but zeemax`s was not, even after those appalling low-class posts. Muslims are shamelessly hypocritical.
I don`t think there is any way to fix this muslim problem worldwide other than mass conversions. There needs to be a defining confrontation of some sort between Muslims and non-Muslims to make this happen. Let`s hope this happens without too much bloodshed. For after all, Muslims are Muslims because they were born Muslim. Not their fault, really.
#411 Posted by echoboom on August 26, 2006 2:16:26 pm
It is good to know from those whistling in the dark & peeing in their pants...and who are asking anyone within the hearing distance..`` am I the next convert to Islam?``
The conquest of Europe & the Americas is within sight; then the secularoons, liberaloons, munafiquoons, & murtadoons from slavelands would fall like dominoes--
and then true to their nature; they would lick the hand that feeds them...those who can be domesticated NEVER change their nature; even after becoming a muslim.
and those destined for conquest never ever give up until they...conquer.
It comes with the territory.
Parvaaz hai donoaN kee issi aik jahaaN meiN
kurGus ka jahaaN aur hai, shaheeN ka jahaaN aur...........ALLAMA IQBAL
tr:
Both circle the same sky, glide in the same air
There`s a vulture; and then there is an eagle.
THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
A court drawing of 10 of the accused in the alleged terror plot to blow up U.S.-bound airliners are from top left, Cossar Ali, Mehran Hussain, Ibrahim Savant, Wheed Zaman, middle row, Arafat Waheed Khan, Umar Islam, Ahmed Abdullah Ali, bottom row, Tanvir Hussain, Adam Khatib and Assad Ali Sarwar as they sit in Westminster Magistrates Court in London,
London Daily Mail
Don Stewart-Whyte became a Muslim six months ago.
The conquest of Europe & the Americas is within sight; then the secularoons, liberaloons, munafiquoons, & murtadoons from slavelands would fall like dominoes--
and then true to their nature; they would lick the hand that feeds them...those who can be domesticated NEVER change their nature; even after becoming a muslim.
and those destined for conquest never ever give up until they...conquer.
It comes with the territory.
Parvaaz hai donoaN kee issi aik jahaaN meiN
kurGus ka jahaaN aur hai, shaheeN ka jahaaN aur...........ALLAMA IQBAL
tr:
Both circle the same sky, glide in the same air
There`s a vulture; and then there is an eagle.
A homegrown convert
THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
A court drawing of 10 of the accused in the alleged terror plot to blow up U.S.-bound airliners are from top left, Cossar Ali, Mehran Hussain, Ibrahim Savant, Wheed Zaman, middle row, Arafat Waheed Khan, Umar Islam, Ahmed Abdullah Ali, bottom row, Tanvir Hussain, Adam Khatib and Assad Ali Sarwar as they sit in Westminster Magistrates Court in London,
London Daily Mail
Don Stewart-Whyte became a Muslim six months ago.
Don Stewart-Whyte, held in an alleged plot to blow up airliners, converted to Islam six months ago
By Kim Murphy
The Los Angeles Times
LONDON (Aug 26, 2006)
He was just 12, the son of a former British Conservative Party organizer in a neat suburban neighbourhood of single-family homes and duplexes, when the father he adored died.
He started drinking and getting into fights, neighbours say.
But six months ago, Don Stewart-Whyte stopped drinking and smoking, and became calmer and more polite, those who know him say. The 21-year-old had converted to Islam, the currency of some of the toughest and hippest young Asian students in his High Wycombe neighbourhood.
``Islam answered all his questions, so he became a Muslim,`` said Abid Zaman, a Muslim habitue of the neighbourhood west of London.
Today, Stewart-Whyte is being held with 22 other suspects in an alleged plot to blow up U.S.-bound airliners over the Atlantic Ocean.
Stewart-Whyte, who became Abdul Waheed, and two other suspects in the plot were converts to Islam, reinforcing what many security experts and clerics already knew: The fervour and inexperience of new converts provides fertile soil for the allure of radical theology.
``The converts are seen as the most extreme, and they`re seen as the most extreme even by other Muslims who may not come from the U.K., which is really worrying,`` said Anthony Glees, director of the Brunel University Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies in West London.
The growing number of homegrown converts in the ranks of militant Islam in Britain is raising troubling new questions not only about what it means to be British, but whether new Muslims must choose between family and faith across what many see as a yawning divide between civilizations.
Britain now has perhaps 50,000 Muslim converts, ranging from fair-haired housewives in Yorkshire who have adopted the hijab to former Catholic priests, Afro-Caribbean street gang members and upper-middle-class university students.
At Islamic meetings attended by many new converts, Glees said, ``people are brainwashed with certain ideas. Such as, there was no Holocaust. Such as, the London (transport) bombers killed far fewer people than the number of Muslims killed over hundreds of years by the British. These things are said, and they become increasingly accepted by these people as their ideological currency.``
``Of course, we have noticed this,`` said Abdurahman Anderson, who has worked extensively with new Muslims at south London`s Brixton Mosque. The congregation there, about 60 per cent of them converts, has included Richard Reid, the British-born ``shoe bomber`` who was himself a convert, and Sept. 11 co-plotter Zacarias Moussaoui, now serving a life sentence in the United States.
``A lot of youth ... have had a kind of intellectual revolution,`` Anderson said. ``And with the world events, they`ve decided to get a fervour in themselves. We call it `hamas.` This excitement can come to a new convert, or someone who`s turning away from the old, traditional Islam.
``What we find is that extremists have used this enthusiasm to try and teach them their erroneous ideas. And these individuals, who have a quest for knowledge, and an excitement, they`re susceptible to it.``
Friends say that after his conversion, Stewart-Whyte grew a beard, wore baggy trousers or the long ``shalwar kameez`` Muslim dress, and frequented a local Islamic studies centre with two other young Muslims also arrested in the plot.
Only a few weeks before the arrests, he married a Moroccan woman who had moved into the house he shared with his mother, a physical education teacher. Neighbours said the young bride never emerged from the house without a full black burka, leaving only slits for her eyes.
Neighbour Zaman, who claims he worked for a year as a driver for radical Muslim cleric Abu Hamza, defended the young convert. ``Don`s a nice guy,`` he said. ``He never talks about jihad. Just basic Islamic principles, love your neighbour and all that. You know, `Hi brother, how you doing?` Nothing to do with terrorism.
``Of course he was upset, like everybody is. You`ve got the U.S. selling these bunker-busting bombs to Israel, and they use those weapons to kill Lebanese men, women and children; this is state-sponsored terrorism, you know what I mean?`` he said. ``But Don and all these Muslims that are in Britain, they`re working, they`ve got their wives, they`ve got their families.``
The purported plot to blow up liquid explosives on board aircraft ``just doesn`t make sense to any of us,`` he said. ``OK, a hole blows in the fuselage and the plane starts going down, and you`re there with the rest of them, you`re bloody yelling and dying for five minutes? It`s crazy! Who would do that?``
Another High Wycombe convert arrested was Brian Young, 28, a former Rastafarian who became Umar Islam when he became a Muslim about three years ago. Young, who is married to a young Muslim woman and is a recent father, worked as a city bus inspector.
The Sun reported he was on duty the day of the London transport explosions in July 2005, and searched buses for other possible bombs.
Accountant Oliver Savant, 25, was also a convert who lived with his Muslim wife, six months` pregnant, in the east London area of Walthamstow. Neighbours said he was the son of an Iranian-born architect, while his mother, an accountant, was British by birth.
``He was the younger of two brothers. The older brother was a high flier in the City,`` neighbour Hazel Kleinman said, referring to London`s financial district.
Young and Savant were charged Monday with conspiracy to commit murder and preparing acts of terrorism. Stewart-Whyte was one of 11 suspects still under detention pending completion of the investigation.
With the large growth in Muslim converts, the number who have been drawn to violent Islam is statistically small.
Much more important, said Timothy Winter, a Muslim convert and lecturer in Islamic studies at Cambridge University, is the potential for Western converts to inject new intellectual blood into the faith, not only expanding the reach of Islam, but transforming it. Yet the act of straddling a cultural divide inevitably raises the potential of a values gap, particularly wrenching for converts who have a foot in both camps.
``There`s a concept in Islam that is very powerful, the idea of a united, powerful `ummah.` It means sort of family, really. So there is a strong idea in Islam of brotherhood ties between Muslims globally,`` said Matthew Wilkinson, who was the epitome of Britishness -- head boy at Eton -- before converting to Islam at the conclusion of his years as a theology student at Cambridge.
Inevitably, politics and theology become intertwined. Jamal Harwood grew up in a typically Christian family in Canada, but by the time he moved to Britain as a young man, he converted to Islam because of nagging questions about his faith.
Why was Jesus more important than the other prophets? Why did Sunday sermons rarely talk about real things, like crime, divorce, violence against women? Were the pastors not aware that the other half of the world was locked in poverty?
Soon, those questions spawned others. Why was Israel imprisoning and killing Palestinians in occupied lands? Why were corrupt, secular Arab regimes ruling over the Muslim faithful?
Harwood joined Hizb ut-Tahrir, an organization often described as a farm team for extremists that advocates the establishment of an Islamic caliphate from Palestine to Turkmenistan.
These days, Harwood makes speeches across Britain in the venues where his organization isn`t banned, railing against what it calls U.S. atrocities in Iraq and advocating the overthrow of Israel. He is more articulate and more vociferous in his defence of the Muslim ummah than many native-born Muslims. But that doesn`t make him any less British, he said.
``People talk about British values. Well, which British values?`` said the 46-year-old information technology consultant. ``Yes, I have a different belief system. Yes, I have a different world view. But why should it be a problem?
``The Muslim community has a very strong duty of care in this country,`` he said. ``The whole debate about integration -- yes, Muslims should be well-settled within the community; we should be productive members of society; we work, we pay our taxes -- but we also maintain a very distinct identity.``
The Los Angeles Times
LONDON (Aug 26, 2006)
He was just 12, the son of a former British Conservative Party organizer in a neat suburban neighbourhood of single-family homes and duplexes, when the father he adored died.
He started drinking and getting into fights, neighbours say.
But six months ago, Don Stewart-Whyte stopped drinking and smoking, and became calmer and more polite, those who know him say. The 21-year-old had converted to Islam, the currency of some of the toughest and hippest young Asian students in his High Wycombe neighbourhood.
``Islam answered all his questions, so he became a Muslim,`` said Abid Zaman, a Muslim habitue of the neighbourhood west of London.
Today, Stewart-Whyte is being held with 22 other suspects in an alleged plot to blow up U.S.-bound airliners over the Atlantic Ocean.
Stewart-Whyte, who became Abdul Waheed, and two other suspects in the plot were converts to Islam, reinforcing what many security experts and clerics already knew: The fervour and inexperience of new converts provides fertile soil for the allure of radical theology.
``The converts are seen as the most extreme, and they`re seen as the most extreme even by other Muslims who may not come from the U.K., which is really worrying,`` said Anthony Glees, director of the Brunel University Centre for Intelligence and Security Studies in West London.
The growing number of homegrown converts in the ranks of militant Islam in Britain is raising troubling new questions not only about what it means to be British, but whether new Muslims must choose between family and faith across what many see as a yawning divide between civilizations.
Britain now has perhaps 50,000 Muslim converts, ranging from fair-haired housewives in Yorkshire who have adopted the hijab to former Catholic priests, Afro-Caribbean street gang members and upper-middle-class university students.
At Islamic meetings attended by many new converts, Glees said, ``people are brainwashed with certain ideas. Such as, there was no Holocaust. Such as, the London (transport) bombers killed far fewer people than the number of Muslims killed over hundreds of years by the British. These things are said, and they become increasingly accepted by these people as their ideological currency.``
``Of course, we have noticed this,`` said Abdurahman Anderson, who has worked extensively with new Muslims at south London`s Brixton Mosque. The congregation there, about 60 per cent of them converts, has included Richard Reid, the British-born ``shoe bomber`` who was himself a convert, and Sept. 11 co-plotter Zacarias Moussaoui, now serving a life sentence in the United States.
``A lot of youth ... have had a kind of intellectual revolution,`` Anderson said. ``And with the world events, they`ve decided to get a fervour in themselves. We call it `hamas.` This excitement can come to a new convert, or someone who`s turning away from the old, traditional Islam.
``What we find is that extremists have used this enthusiasm to try and teach them their erroneous ideas. And these individuals, who have a quest for knowledge, and an excitement, they`re susceptible to it.``
Friends say that after his conversion, Stewart-Whyte grew a beard, wore baggy trousers or the long ``shalwar kameez`` Muslim dress, and frequented a local Islamic studies centre with two other young Muslims also arrested in the plot.
Only a few weeks before the arrests, he married a Moroccan woman who had moved into the house he shared with his mother, a physical education teacher. Neighbours said the young bride never emerged from the house without a full black burka, leaving only slits for her eyes.
Neighbour Zaman, who claims he worked for a year as a driver for radical Muslim cleric Abu Hamza, defended the young convert. ``Don`s a nice guy,`` he said. ``He never talks about jihad. Just basic Islamic principles, love your neighbour and all that. You know, `Hi brother, how you doing?` Nothing to do with terrorism.
``Of course he was upset, like everybody is. You`ve got the U.S. selling these bunker-busting bombs to Israel, and they use those weapons to kill Lebanese men, women and children; this is state-sponsored terrorism, you know what I mean?`` he said. ``But Don and all these Muslims that are in Britain, they`re working, they`ve got their wives, they`ve got their families.``
The purported plot to blow up liquid explosives on board aircraft ``just doesn`t make sense to any of us,`` he said. ``OK, a hole blows in the fuselage and the plane starts going down, and you`re there with the rest of them, you`re bloody yelling and dying for five minutes? It`s crazy! Who would do that?``
Another High Wycombe convert arrested was Brian Young, 28, a former Rastafarian who became Umar Islam when he became a Muslim about three years ago. Young, who is married to a young Muslim woman and is a recent father, worked as a city bus inspector.
The Sun reported he was on duty the day of the London transport explosions in July 2005, and searched buses for other possible bombs.
Accountant Oliver Savant, 25, was also a convert who lived with his Muslim wife, six months` pregnant, in the east London area of Walthamstow. Neighbours said he was the son of an Iranian-born architect, while his mother, an accountant, was British by birth.
``He was the younger of two brothers. The older brother was a high flier in the City,`` neighbour Hazel Kleinman said, referring to London`s financial district.
Young and Savant were charged Monday with conspiracy to commit murder and preparing acts of terrorism. Stewart-Whyte was one of 11 suspects still under detention pending completion of the investigation.
With the large growth in Muslim converts, the number who have been drawn to violent Islam is statistically small.
Much more important, said Timothy Winter, a Muslim convert and lecturer in Islamic studies at Cambridge University, is the potential for Western converts to inject new intellectual blood into the faith, not only expanding the reach of Islam, but transforming it. Yet the act of straddling a cultural divide inevitably raises the potential of a values gap, particularly wrenching for converts who have a foot in both camps.
``There`s a concept in Islam that is very powerful, the idea of a united, powerful `ummah.` It means sort of family, really. So there is a strong idea in Islam of brotherhood ties between Muslims globally,`` said Matthew Wilkinson, who was the epitome of Britishness -- head boy at Eton -- before converting to Islam at the conclusion of his years as a theology student at Cambridge.
Inevitably, politics and theology become intertwined. Jamal Harwood grew up in a typically Christian family in Canada, but by the time he moved to Britain as a young man, he converted to Islam because of nagging questions about his faith.
Why was Jesus more important than the other prophets? Why did Sunday sermons rarely talk about real things, like crime, divorce, violence against women? Were the pastors not aware that the other half of the world was locked in poverty?
Soon, those questions spawned others. Why was Israel imprisoning and killing Palestinians in occupied lands? Why were corrupt, secular Arab regimes ruling over the Muslim faithful?
Harwood joined Hizb ut-Tahrir, an organization often described as a farm team for extremists that advocates the establishment of an Islamic caliphate from Palestine to Turkmenistan.
These days, Harwood makes speeches across Britain in the venues where his organization isn`t banned, railing against what it calls U.S. atrocities in Iraq and advocating the overthrow of Israel. He is more articulate and more vociferous in his defence of the Muslim ummah than many native-born Muslims. But that doesn`t make him any less British, he said.
``People talk about British values. Well, which British values?`` said the 46-year-old information technology consultant. ``Yes, I have a different belief system. Yes, I have a different world view. But why should it be a problem?
``The Muslim community has a very strong duty of care in this country,`` he said. ``The whole debate about integration -- yes, Muslims should be well-settled within the community; we should be productive members of society; we work, we pay our taxes -- but we also maintain a very distinct identity.``
#410 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on August 26, 2006 11:09:32 am
Zeemax #397 {`` It is quite surprising because Salim doesn`t need any support ... believe me he is sturdy enough so you won`t get anything from attacking his friends.
``}
Zee,
My friend, thank you for standing up for me, but I wish you had not made the ``sturdy`` comment. Now, she will never leave me alone. :(
``}
Zee,
My friend, thank you for standing up for me, but I wish you had not made the ``sturdy`` comment. Now, she will never leave me alone. :(
#409 Posted by zeemax on August 26, 2006 6:40:09 am
contd...#408....
And certainly it was the idea you were advancing, not your person why I supported your questions. It was towards transparency and accountability. All very fair. If you ask these again, or anyone else, I will support that.
And certainly it was the idea you were advancing, not your person why I supported your questions. It was towards transparency and accountability. All very fair. If you ask these again, or anyone else, I will support that.
#408 Posted by zeemax on August 26, 2006 6:32:51 am
#407 by saminasha2
Sure I see where you come from. I admire your courage in the face of tremendous hostility, all for what you stand for. That is of-course admirable. Those are `principles`.
But, other people have principles too. So does Chuhan, so do I. If it comes to push & shove, we do it. If women attack me, their privates are no more private than mine.
For example, you can pull out my posts from the early days (you were here too) and you`ll see whether that was always the case.
But, respect remains. I reiterate that. What you object to is just semantics.
Sure I see where you come from. I admire your courage in the face of tremendous hostility, all for what you stand for. That is of-course admirable. Those are `principles`.
But, other people have principles too. So does Chuhan, so do I. If it comes to push & shove, we do it. If women attack me, their privates are no more private than mine.
For example, you can pull out my posts from the early days (you were here too) and you`ll see whether that was always the case.
But, respect remains. I reiterate that. What you object to is just semantics.
#406 Posted by saharanpuri on August 26, 2006 5:23:10 am
Lets remember the enormous human tragedy inflicted in this subcontinent from the annals of history .This massacre enabled pakistan to once for all solve its hindu/sikh minority problem on an permanent basis . Due to foolhardy Gandhi /Nehru Indias muslim minority has grown to 20 crores nad has several suicide sleeper bombers.Next generations of Hindus
/sikhs will laways suffer this Congressi blunder.
Competitive Massacre
Posted Monday, Sep. 8, 1947(TIME)
While the orchestra at Lahore`s Falett`s Hotel played quietly for dancing, European guests drank cocktails on the moonlit terrace. Beyond earshot of the music, whole blocks of buildings lay gutted. Streets were bare and silent. Over the deserted railroad station the smell of corpses hung.
One-seventh of Lahore, capital of the Punjab, had been destroyed. Scores of nearby towns and villages had been razed. War—or rather, competitive massacre—between Moslems and Sikhs had reached a pitch of horror that made the Indian Mutiny of 1857 look like a mere street brawl. In two weeks, between 40,000 and 150,000 people had been killed in the Punjab. Most of the bodies were too hacked and charred to be recognized. At least a million were homeless.
``Never during two wars have I seen such sights as I have seen these last two days,`` said a middle-aged British colonel at Lahore airport. ``All those atrocity yarns we used to hear, such as Germans cutting Belgian children`s hands off and raping and then killing women, have suddenly come true in the Punjab during the last week.``
``The Joy of Fraternization.`` For months the Punjab`s communal hatred had been boiling up into slaughter. A previous climax came last spring when hundreds were killed in riots there (TIME, March 17). In mid-August the partition of the Punjab between India and Pakistan left 1.6 of the 3.8 million Sikhs in the province under Moslem rule; at least twice as many Moslems remained on the Indian side of the border in a new East Punjab state.
The Sikhs are an offshoot of the Hindu religion; they organized 300 years ago to resist militantly Moslem oppression. The British had used the warlike Sikhs extensively, giving them land and offices, especially in the fertile, predominantly Moslem West Punjab. In consequence, the Moslems hate Sikhs far more than they do Hindus.
The rest of India was relatively quiet. In once turbulent Calcutta, Mohandas K. Gandhi, still striving for Hindu-Moslem unity, was able to write of the situation there: ``One might almost say the joy of fraternization is leaping up from hour to hour.``
There was no fraternization in the Punjab. At Amritsar, on the Indian side of the border, organized gangs of Sikhs had exterminated or driven out the Moslem minority population (150,000). Moslems in Lahore and other Pakistan border regions retaliated against the Hindus and Sikhs there.
Mohamed Ali Jinnah, who had conceived Pakistan in hatred and was now its president and undisputed boss, sent to the West Punjab as governor his faithful follower, the Khan of Momdot. The bland, moonfaced Khan had served four years in the Punjab Legislative Assembly without opening his mouth. When he got to the West Punjab, he acted. With his province literally in flames, the Khan of Momdot relaxed regulations that had restricted the carrying of firearms; he also decreed that every man could wear a sword, provided it was covered.
Some of his subordinates went further. The Moslem deputy commissioner of one of the Western Punjab districts mourned a son killed on the Indian side of the border. Said he to the young Moslems: ``You have full liberty to go the limit.
Take revenge as you like, but if there is one Hindu or Sikh left alive in my district after you are through, I swear to kill them myself.``
The Canal Turned Pink. TIME Correspondent Robert Neville flew over the area last week, then talked with refugees and correspondents fleeing from the carnage. Neville cabled:
``Just flying over the Punjab today with a landing here & there gives a feeling that terrible things have happened below. The number of smoking villages that can be counted from Ambala up to Lahore must be at least 150. Here & there can be seen a big town like Sialkot and Gujranwala, where charred black districts tell the story that here the property of one entire community was wiped out.
``The panorama of West Punjab seems even worse. In hitherto peaceful districts like Montgomery and Lyallpur there is not one town which has not been a battlefield. There is no bazaar which has not been burned out. Streams of refugees can be seen approaching all bridges, and over some roads they form virtual convoys miles long. On a ten-mile stretch of road leading to the big bridge over the Sutlej River into Pakistan, there must have been 100,000 people, most of them walking beside bullock carts piled high with their sole possessions.
``At Lahore`s Central Station, Sikh and Hindu refugees from North or West Punjab were mobbed on the platform, often stabbed to death and their few belongings looted. A major incident involved a big convoy carrying perhaps 1,000 from Sialkot to Amritsar. The convoy was stopped and attacked at the Ravi River bridge. Hundreds were stabbed to death and other hundreds wounded.
``Refugees from Lyallpur in West Punjab say that so many Sikhs and Hindus were murdered and their bodies thrown into the canal that the canal actually had a pinkish color for a day after. Moslem refugees told how Sikhs stripped and paraded Moslem women through the streets, raped them and then killed them. British correspondents reported having seen dead, naked women lying about villages of the Amritsar district.``
A Look of Satisfaction. ``Although railway administrations of both Dominions have doggedly tried to keep a skeleton schedule going, they have now given up. For days on end no trains arrived in Delhi without having been attacked and looted practically all along the route.
``Near Jullundur, a band of Sikhs held up a train, methodically searched all compartments and pulled out 17 Moslems, whom they beheaded on the platform. Most amazing of all was the look of bland satisfaction on the faces of these young Sikh men, their hands dripping blood, their clothes smeared with blood, as they stood and grinned at their handiwork while the train finally pulled out. The only Moslems who escaped on this trip were two who were hidden by two British officers under their baggage.
``A British correspondent traveling in the opposite direction through this territory saw half a dozen lying stabbed on the Lahore platform, slowly dying without any help being given. Later that night, on a small siding south of Amritsar, a band of Sikhs entered his compartment and before his eyes beheaded a Moslem apparently trying to travel disguised as a Hindu. (For identification, both sides use the tried and true means of seeing whether there has been circumcision. Moslems always circumcize, the Hindus and Sikhs practically never.)
``A member of the U.S. Embassy arrived in Lahore from Delhi with another tale of horror. Reaching the small station of Okara, near Montgomery, he found the station platform utterly deserted except for several hundred dead Hindus and Sikhs lying around the platform, apparently slaughtered only a few hours before while waiting for the train to escape. All these people were workers in a textile mill which had been attacked by Moslems. Their bodies were mostly stripped and in several instances limbs had been torn from the bodies. The wife of a British textile factory manager told how a Moslem mob had attacked the Hindu and Sikh workers in another factory. When Moslems broke into the ground floor, the Sikhs slashed the throats of their own wives, and afterwards tried to fight through themselves. All were killed.``
Authorities were utterly unable to cope with the situation. In many cases both Sikh and Moslem police had participated in the riots. British soldiers, present in the Punjab, were not allowed to interfere under the arrangements now in force for Indian independence.
No Plans. For the homeless, crippled refugees, no one had anticipated relief measures. In New Delhi a penniless Hindu woman from the West Punjab clutched her two children, told of her husband`s murder by Moslems. ``Don`t ask her about her plans,`` cautioned a welfare official, ``she hasn`t any and neither have we.``
The rioting was breaking down railroad traffic between parts of India and Pakistan. Unless it was soon restored, both nations, especially Pakistan, would be economically crippled. Fearing that the Punjab rioting would spread, millions of Hindus and Moslems prepared to cross borders in a transfer of population greater than Europe had ever seen.
In his new capital, Karachi, Jinnah preached that ``restraint is necessary.`` However, the fires of communal hatred, which he had fanned for 20 years, were burning too brightly in the Punjab to be easily stifled. They might spread
From the Sep. 8, 1947 issue of TIME magazine
/sikhs will laways suffer this Congressi blunder.
Competitive Massacre
Posted Monday, Sep. 8, 1947(TIME)
While the orchestra at Lahore`s Falett`s Hotel played quietly for dancing, European guests drank cocktails on the moonlit terrace. Beyond earshot of the music, whole blocks of buildings lay gutted. Streets were bare and silent. Over the deserted railroad station the smell of corpses hung.
One-seventh of Lahore, capital of the Punjab, had been destroyed. Scores of nearby towns and villages had been razed. War—or rather, competitive massacre—between Moslems and Sikhs had reached a pitch of horror that made the Indian Mutiny of 1857 look like a mere street brawl. In two weeks, between 40,000 and 150,000 people had been killed in the Punjab. Most of the bodies were too hacked and charred to be recognized. At least a million were homeless.
``Never during two wars have I seen such sights as I have seen these last two days,`` said a middle-aged British colonel at Lahore airport. ``All those atrocity yarns we used to hear, such as Germans cutting Belgian children`s hands off and raping and then killing women, have suddenly come true in the Punjab during the last week.``
``The Joy of Fraternization.`` For months the Punjab`s communal hatred had been boiling up into slaughter. A previous climax came last spring when hundreds were killed in riots there (TIME, March 17). In mid-August the partition of the Punjab between India and Pakistan left 1.6 of the 3.8 million Sikhs in the province under Moslem rule; at least twice as many Moslems remained on the Indian side of the border in a new East Punjab state.
The Sikhs are an offshoot of the Hindu religion; they organized 300 years ago to resist militantly Moslem oppression. The British had used the warlike Sikhs extensively, giving them land and offices, especially in the fertile, predominantly Moslem West Punjab. In consequence, the Moslems hate Sikhs far more than they do Hindus.
The rest of India was relatively quiet. In once turbulent Calcutta, Mohandas K. Gandhi, still striving for Hindu-Moslem unity, was able to write of the situation there: ``One might almost say the joy of fraternization is leaping up from hour to hour.``
There was no fraternization in the Punjab. At Amritsar, on the Indian side of the border, organized gangs of Sikhs had exterminated or driven out the Moslem minority population (150,000). Moslems in Lahore and other Pakistan border regions retaliated against the Hindus and Sikhs there.
Mohamed Ali Jinnah, who had conceived Pakistan in hatred and was now its president and undisputed boss, sent to the West Punjab as governor his faithful follower, the Khan of Momdot. The bland, moonfaced Khan had served four years in the Punjab Legislative Assembly without opening his mouth. When he got to the West Punjab, he acted. With his province literally in flames, the Khan of Momdot relaxed regulations that had restricted the carrying of firearms; he also decreed that every man could wear a sword, provided it was covered.
Some of his subordinates went further. The Moslem deputy commissioner of one of the Western Punjab districts mourned a son killed on the Indian side of the border. Said he to the young Moslems: ``You have full liberty to go the limit.
Take revenge as you like, but if there is one Hindu or Sikh left alive in my district after you are through, I swear to kill them myself.``
The Canal Turned Pink. TIME Correspondent Robert Neville flew over the area last week, then talked with refugees and correspondents fleeing from the carnage. Neville cabled:
``Just flying over the Punjab today with a landing here & there gives a feeling that terrible things have happened below. The number of smoking villages that can be counted from Ambala up to Lahore must be at least 150. Here & there can be seen a big town like Sialkot and Gujranwala, where charred black districts tell the story that here the property of one entire community was wiped out.
``The panorama of West Punjab seems even worse. In hitherto peaceful districts like Montgomery and Lyallpur there is not one town which has not been a battlefield. There is no bazaar which has not been burned out. Streams of refugees can be seen approaching all bridges, and over some roads they form virtual convoys miles long. On a ten-mile stretch of road leading to the big bridge over the Sutlej River into Pakistan, there must have been 100,000 people, most of them walking beside bullock carts piled high with their sole possessions.
``At Lahore`s Central Station, Sikh and Hindu refugees from North or West Punjab were mobbed on the platform, often stabbed to death and their few belongings looted. A major incident involved a big convoy carrying perhaps 1,000 from Sialkot to Amritsar. The convoy was stopped and attacked at the Ravi River bridge. Hundreds were stabbed to death and other hundreds wounded.
``Refugees from Lyallpur in West Punjab say that so many Sikhs and Hindus were murdered and their bodies thrown into the canal that the canal actually had a pinkish color for a day after. Moslem refugees told how Sikhs stripped and paraded Moslem women through the streets, raped them and then killed them. British correspondents reported having seen dead, naked women lying about villages of the Amritsar district.``
A Look of Satisfaction. ``Although railway administrations of both Dominions have doggedly tried to keep a skeleton schedule going, they have now given up. For days on end no trains arrived in Delhi without having been attacked and looted practically all along the route.
``Near Jullundur, a band of Sikhs held up a train, methodically searched all compartments and pulled out 17 Moslems, whom they beheaded on the platform. Most amazing of all was the look of bland satisfaction on the faces of these young Sikh men, their hands dripping blood, their clothes smeared with blood, as they stood and grinned at their handiwork while the train finally pulled out. The only Moslems who escaped on this trip were two who were hidden by two British officers under their baggage.
``A British correspondent traveling in the opposite direction through this territory saw half a dozen lying stabbed on the Lahore platform, slowly dying without any help being given. Later that night, on a small siding south of Amritsar, a band of Sikhs entered his compartment and before his eyes beheaded a Moslem apparently trying to travel disguised as a Hindu. (For identification, both sides use the tried and true means of seeing whether there has been circumcision. Moslems always circumcize, the Hindus and Sikhs practically never.)
``A member of the U.S. Embassy arrived in Lahore from Delhi with another tale of horror. Reaching the small station of Okara, near Montgomery, he found the station platform utterly deserted except for several hundred dead Hindus and Sikhs lying around the platform, apparently slaughtered only a few hours before while waiting for the train to escape. All these people were workers in a textile mill which had been attacked by Moslems. Their bodies were mostly stripped and in several instances limbs had been torn from the bodies. The wife of a British textile factory manager told how a Moslem mob had attacked the Hindu and Sikh workers in another factory. When Moslems broke into the ground floor, the Sikhs slashed the throats of their own wives, and afterwards tried to fight through themselves. All were killed.``
Authorities were utterly unable to cope with the situation. In many cases both Sikh and Moslem police had participated in the riots. British soldiers, present in the Punjab, were not allowed to interfere under the arrangements now in force for Indian independence.
No Plans. For the homeless, crippled refugees, no one had anticipated relief measures. In New Delhi a penniless Hindu woman from the West Punjab clutched her two children, told of her husband`s murder by Moslems. ``Don`t ask her about her plans,`` cautioned a welfare official, ``she hasn`t any and neither have we.``
The rioting was breaking down railroad traffic between parts of India and Pakistan. Unless it was soon restored, both nations, especially Pakistan, would be economically crippled. Fearing that the Punjab rioting would spread, millions of Hindus and Moslems prepared to cross borders in a transfer of population greater than Europe had ever seen.
In his new capital, Karachi, Jinnah preached that ``restraint is necessary.`` However, the fires of communal hatred, which he had fanned for 20 years, were burning too brightly in the Punjab to be easily stifled. They might spread
From the Sep. 8, 1947 issue of TIME magazine
#405 Posted by queen_cut_paste on August 26, 2006 4:59:38 am
#404 its interesting to note that often it is not only the paki guys as you put - I know of many a subcontinental old person do this jumping up and down thing....what they call respect or izzat - is actually demanded by them not commanded by them!
So I will take issue with you and say why do you isolate on old paki foggies! Shame you sire! you are a true bigot!
So I will take issue with you and say why do you isolate on old paki foggies! Shame you sire! you are a true bigot!
#404 Posted by queen_cut_paste on August 26, 2006 4:56:54 am
#401 tahmed32 sir, you are the exception...and a good one.....you are someone who can dig up waltermitty and read it, and then say never read it before and glad I did it - and you have my respect for this!
If you see zeemax jump and down at a drop of a hat, or echoboom chacha or MASADI mian get agitated you will know what I mean ;-(). The give meaning to a phrase, if I could coin it,`` armchair-keyboarding is mightier than the pen and the sword combined`` (AKIMTPASC).
the other exception is ofcourse URSTRULY - a man who has my respect. never wavers from the straight line according to his beliefs, never shy to acknowledge right and worng and always open to an argument.
If you see zeemax jump and down at a drop of a hat, or echoboom chacha or MASADI mian get agitated you will know what I mean ;-(). The give meaning to a phrase, if I could coin it,`` armchair-keyboarding is mightier than the pen and the sword combined`` (AKIMTPASC).
the other exception is ofcourse URSTRULY - a man who has my respect. never wavers from the straight line according to his beliefs, never shy to acknowledge right and worng and always open to an argument.
#403 Posted by tahmed32 on August 26, 2006 4:35:38 am
#401 as an ``old, mature`` paki guy, could i ask exactly which post of mine shows that i have ``jangled`` my nerves? :-)
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