Postmortem of Israeli-Hezbollah War – What Next?

Re: # 144 by zeemax on August 27, 2006 11:08pm PT

Dear Zeemax:

{....a man with a belief or a man with an intellect. Only one of these devices is considered valid to be used at one time....

Nothing could be farther than the truth. These two are not mutually exclusive. One begins where the other ends. And you know which of these ends first due to its severe limitations.}

You suggest ``One begins where the other ends.`` That is mutually exclusive, is it not? What if, intellect begins, but religious belief never ends. Is that a possibility?

Religion in its implications implies no more than ``superstitions.``

Respectfully submitted,

sattar #155 you write Ahamdi views are consistent with Quranic teachings and I reckon you have misunderstood both. Furthermore, accepting a person as a prophet does not conflict with Quranic view of individual responsibility. I doubt your viewpoint is well thought-out.

I was going to say that we have been around this question before, but I see that you add something new here - namely, that ``accepting a person as a prophet does not conflict with Quranic view of individual responsibility. `` I beg to differ yet again on this as well: I dont see how you can say that. After all, by accepting someone else to be your ``guide``, you are automatically diluting your individual responsibility. This is true not just for ahmedis, but indeed for millions of people in Pakistan who look to pirs for miracles, and to maulvis for ``guidance`` and do not use their common sense and conscience as they are supposed to do if they truly follow the message of the Quran.

I differ with you on the above. However, consistent with the concept of individual responsibility, I also do not consider it my responsibility to try and convince you on this issue. As the Quran says, we should not argue on religious issues, since these are issues that are for God to decide - not other men. So, I shall respectfully bow out of further discussion on this matter.

I will say that while I differ with you in your understanding of the Quran, you also have my deep regrets as a Pakistani and as a muslim for the mischief that has been done to your community by those who consider themselves muslims and pakistanis. Such individuals will no doubt be answerable to God for their actions, even though they may escape justice on earth due to lawlessness in pakistan. Far from being muslims, they are not fit to be considered anything more than mere jahils.

So, let us not argue on religious matters, and simply say to one another ``to you be your way, to me be mine``. And I wish you and your family peace and happiness.

tahmed (#162):

Your view that ``accepting a person as a prophet dilutes individual responsibility`` is incorrect on several accounts:

- A prophet is not supposed to beat people in submission. While a prophet may provide guidance on an issue, a view fully supported by Quran, it is up to each person to reflect and to act according to one’s own conscience. Each matter ultimately rests with Allah.

- Allah Himself raised prophets (Jesus, Moses, Muhammad, phu them). People who accepted these prophets remained responsible for their own actions. Are you suggesting these followers were somewhat absolved of their personal responsibility?

- Quran repeatedly reminds people to obey prophets of Allah. For example, in Chapter 26 it lists perhaps 8-10 prophets who repeatedly asked their people “So fear Allah and obey me”.

- Quran suggests the Allah raised Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to purify believers, and to teach them Scripture and Wisdom (2:151, 3:164, 62:2). This is a lot more than merely conveying Quran. Read on for more.

- From what I recall, Quran suggests that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is “only a conveyer of message” in the context of non-believers. That is, Muhammad, if people reject you, your job is only to convey the message to them. Re-read the pertinent verses to check for yourself.

- Having a supreme court does not dilute a citizen’s responsibility to follow the law. This is an everyday example that negates your view.

- Similarly, you may argue that since a child goes to school where he is taught by a teacher, the child is absolved of his responsibilities and is no longer expected to use his brain. This again is incorrect.

- Your line of reasoning leads one to conclude that even Allah’s attribute of Mercy dilutes an individual’s personal responsibility.

- Furthermore, you may also argue that forgiving a person for the wrong he did to you also dilutes this person’s individual responsibility.

- Last but not least, nothing in Quran even remotely suggests end of prohethood. Quran keeps the door to future prophets wide open. I don’t think this was a mistake on part of Gabriel.

+++++

Look, I am not trying to get you to change your views. I am pointing out that your views are not supported by Quran or collective human experience, even as you accuse Ahmedis of violating Quran. Your assumptions about message of Quran are not necessarily supported by Quran or common sense. But if you insist, let’s not argue on religious matters (although you started it!!). And I wish you and your family the best too.

I appreciate your sensitivity on treatment of minorities in Pakistan. That is certainly a good goal for the society to move towards.

sattar2: The concept of ``individual responsibility`` to adhere to certain basic values (honesty, respect for other cultures, living up to one`s commitments) is emphasized not just in islam but in the finest primary and secondary schools around the world as well. It is ``internal`` to the individual, a part of his or her character. It represents ex ante control over one`s actions, whereas crime and punishment in a worldly sense have to do with ex post control.

Put another way, the law holds you responsible for your actions, not your intentions. Religion, and character building more generally, focus on intentions. You believe that an individual, even a grown individual, requires guidance from some other individual (whom you consider a prophet). Howver, as I think you will agree, character is built in one`s formative years, i.e. during early childhood. Once formed, it is very difficult to change - and so you have PhDs and higly educated individuals who are nevertheless basket cases in terms of character.

And religion, as practiced in Pakistan, is increasingly geared to weakening rather than strengthening our national character (i.e. do hajj, say prayers, and wash away sins, e.g.) - but let me not get into that and will stop here.

My intention is not to start a religious war with you on this issue (just joking here). But simply to respond to your points with my point of view.

Re: # 147
krishna_abcd- We need some kind of a criterion. Palestinians still have titles to their properties. Jews got compensated for their claims by Germany, etc. Sikhs, Hindus & Muslims leaving Pakistan or India got compensated on the basis of their titles.

So what makes thee growl so menacingly?

#155 by sattar2

Since you are a non-muslim, I can appreciate your viewpoint.

Rgds

In Mirza`s own words:

Please note:

He declares those who do not follow him as non-muslims.

Jihaad? RATHER,He gloats about his services & thanks (elsewhere) Britto Baboons to
have created the job of prophet for him [Laugh/cry at the same time vala ikan]


1. ``Except for the Children of Prostitutes, whose hearts have been sealed by God, everyone else has accepted me and believes in my Prophethood.`` (Aina-e-Kamalate Islam, Roohani Khazain vol 5 p.547). . . . .


2. He, who does not believe on Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani, is Disobedient to God and Prophet and will go to Hell.`` (Advertisement by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad dated 25th May 1900)


3. I am the ``Self-implanted/Self-cultivated Seedling `` of the British Government. ``Government should take great care regarding this SELF-IMPLANTED SEEDLING . . . . .should instruct its officers to treat ME and MY JAMA`AT with special kindness and favours. Our family has never hesitated in shedding their blood in the way of British Rulers and did not stop from laying down their lives neither do they hesitate now.`` (Roohani Khazain vol.13 p.350)


4. ``From my early age till now when I am 65 years of age, I have been engaged , with my pen and tongue, in an important task to turn the hearts of Muslims towards the true love & Goodwill & sympathy for the British Government and to obliterate the idea of Jehad from the hearts of stupid (Muslims). `` (Kitab-ul-Bariyah, Roohani Khazain vol 13 p.350)


5. `` . . . . for the sake of British Government, I have published & distributed 50,000 leaflets in this country (India) other Islamic countries(against jehad). . . . the result is that hundreds of thousands of people have given up their filthy ideas about Jihad.`` (Roohani Khazain vol 15 p.114)

Aww..now Nasrallah regrets kidnapping the Israeli soldiers..the Israelis sure know how to put the fear of God into their rivals` hearts.

Nasrallah regret at seizing troops

Excerpt:

``You ask me if I had known on July 11 ... that the operation would lead to such a war, would I do it? I say no, absolutely not.``

Quadiani32`s Qura`an:



What must be noticed here that Quadiani32 considers the holy prophet(pbuh), his life, his teachings, his family etc irrelevant { if not so then he can just rewrite that he does consider them relevant. I have yet to see him mention the M word, unless it is relegated among his(Q32s)master`s like Lincoln, Washinton, or Carnegie.

The above book was a best seller of the times. Like monsoon maindaks such books come & go, but the American of the lower IQ class are weaned on them to get that good-feeling about themselves and develop the chutzpah to join the company of learned people like the philosophers, poets, & the priests(mullahs). Quadiani32 has mentioned many a times that
all one needs is Kindergarten education to know everthing there is to know.

Like Q32, the left-righting Colony & Cantonement canines have minds which are only capable of taking orders & executing them, regardless of social cost to serve their,master.
Who is not aware of the stupid & jahil military mind when they become ``civil``..their children suffer the most from this ``order`` taking & maintaining. Unless tempered by Madressa education, they, invariably, always develop a servile personality.
They cannot understand poetry, maths, sufism, metaphysics, and stuff which has not yet been OKed by his masters.

Hardworking, simple-minded people like him work like Zombies in USA a lot. The ``modern`` mechanical world can only make them laugh when they are tickled by canned-laughter.

Luckily we have less of such kind, even at the lowest level, in the higher civilisations.

#168 dont break this news to echosqueek about his arab god.

#169 you still remain a man-worshipping kafir.

MashaAllah:

Our Mullah; the great Nasrullah

The Israelis want him as their prime-ministers.

as I`ve always maintained: THe curse upon Pakistan is the English-medium school system which divides society into haves & have-nots --as a the STATE`S unstated but glaringly obvious POLICY.
The fear that sends shivers down the spine of the UNiformed, the UNinformed, & the Deformed minds of the SLAVELAND is that somehow their servants son does not end up bossing their own son.

In Pakistan the Cantonement & Colony Canines from the OFFENCE COLONIES have talken the WORST from the Hindus & the BRittoBaboons: Formers CASTE system & Latter`s CLASS system. This has become an incestious monolith through marriages, baradari system, wives/daughters used as life-comforters for bosses, cross-connections of grade 20 & above,
brown-nosing for the manna oozing from the goraa-arses & a keen desire to auction their ammas to the first bidder in sight at the drop of their uniforms.

``We don`t know Urdu; we are english medium--is`nt that a sign that we are educated. It is more important NOT to be able to read & write URDU; even if you fail in english, my son, because THAT is how you will be judged in Slaveland``...a ``pratical`` & ``pragmatic`` slave`s
advice to the next generation of slaves...the Q33+s

---

Last update - 11:31 29/08/2006

Nasrallah for Prime Minister - of Israel

By Bradley Burston

Now it`s official. Israel is a country without a prime minister.

This had been no more than an educated suspicion until Monday night, when Ehud Olmert effectively made the announcement. Not in so many words, of course. Instead, in a long-awaited television address to the nation, Olmert took Israel`s last remaining expectations of him and kicking them in the teeth, by ducking a full-out probe into his handling of the war.

If nature abhors a vacuum, imagine how it feels at this point about Israel`s senior leadership.

The titular head of state, our model for probity, is looking down the barrel of rape charges. The army chief of staff, our model for dedication and sacrifice, took a break for a bit of financial planning just as the nation`s leaders were deciding whether the military was ready, plans, supplies, training and all, to go to war.

The justice minister might have helped Olmert this week, had he not resigned over suspicions that he forced a French kiss on an unwilling young woman soldier.

And then there is Olmert himself, the man who acted as prime minister from January 4, when Ariel Sharon suffered a devastating stroke, until July 12, when Olmert suffered a debilitating, evidently permanent lapse of responsibility.

After nearly six decades of existence, Israel has found itself a practical experiment in Anarcho-Zionism. Unlike its neighbor the Palestinian Authority, which is a government lacking an independent state (and a number of officials jailed by Israel), Israel has become an independent state lacking a government.

Israel is now run not by its leaders, but despite them. The IDF, by default, has once again become an Army of the People. It is now run by the estimable junior officers and the experienced, motivated soldiers at the company, battalion, and, at most, brigade levels. It is supplied by donations from pharmacies, supermarkets, and private individuals, who also set up Israel`s refugee camps and shelters for people displaced by war in the north.

The only country in the world whose capital is now universally unrecognized as such, Israel has also become the only country which no longer recognizes its own government. The upside: It is no longer lonely at the top, because there is no one left.

So it is only right and proper that Israelis have begun to think about a replacement. We have exhumed Ehud Barak and Benjamin Netanyahu, but polls show them to be non-starters. In an effort to think outside the box, we have mooted Avishai Braverman and a host of others, many of them impressive, none of them proven.

At this point in Olmert`s career, about the only thing that could save Olmert`s head, is that of Hassan Nasrallah.

Maybe that`s our answer. If assassinating or abducting the Hezbollah leader is still on the agenda, as Israeli officials maintain, why not put Nasrallah to useful purpose?

Look at the issues. Consider his record. Here is a man who is both strong and wise on security issues. He saw to it that his troops were well-prepared, well-trained, well-supplied, and and well-protected.

Nasrallah would be a new sort of Israeli leader. One who gets things done.

Here is a man who addresses social welfare needs head-on. He doesn`t wait to help home-owners rebuild residences destroyed by aerial attacks. He hands out literal lump-sums, immediately, in cash.

Here is a man who delivers medical care to the needy, affordable housing to the homeless, food and even clothing to society`s disadvantaged.

Here is a man who cares deeply about, and puts major emphasis on, education and youth [even if the message is one of incitement, hatred, and anti-Semitism].

Moreover, as he proved this week in admitting to having miscalculated the Israeli response in Lebanon, Nasrallah, as opposed to, say, Olmert, is a leader who, when he`s made an error in judgment, can openly admit to it.

For more than 20 years, Israeli prime ministers have come to office pledging to be leaders for all the people, only to exacerbate existing divides and create new ones.

Why not tap the one leader who has managed to unite the Israeli people as has no prime minister in memory?

It goes beyond the war itself. Only Nasrallah succeeded in putting an end to what has been the central rift in Israeli society for the past four decades: He has effectively stilled the arguments for and against the concept of land-for-peace.

Nobody`s about to give up anything now. Certainly not in the one place everyone cares about, the West Bank.

The right and the left are closer than they have been at any time since June, 1967. The right, having already lost Gaza, has seen its Greater Israel dream shattered. The left, having been rocketed by Hamas, the Jihad, and Hezbollah, has seen its bedrock ideology - End War by Ending Occupation - reduced to rubble.

Finally, here is a leader who carries no moral baggage. The world expects nothing of him morally, so there is the merest of outcry when he attacks civilian targets.

Nasrallah has a proven record.

What do our present leaders have to show for theirs?

Previous #171 post from HAARETZ, Israel`s MOST respected newspaper....Canine32 please note.




www.haaretz.com

#171

An outstanding prologue, I must say ...

tahmed (#164)

Allah raised prophets in the past and asked people to accept these prophets. None of this interfered with the notion of individual responsibility. Your basic premise is negated by Quran itself. I don`t think I can simplify this any further.

Furthermore, Quran calls Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) an excellent model for believers (33:21). It also commands Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to tell believers: ... Say: “If you love Allah, follow me …” and also ... Say: “Obey Allah and His messenger …” (3:31,32). These are but a few examples that negate your view.

In essence, your conflict is not with Ahmadi-Muslim views, rather with content of Quran itself.

Moving on …

The notion of individual responsibility needs to be viewed carefully, understood in its proper context, and certain allowances should be made to make it workable for human beings.

However, if you stick to your uncompromising interpretation, you must admit that divine attribute of Mercy dilutes individual responsibility of humans; that the very act of forgiveness is at odds with individual responsibility of the sinner (or the criminal); and that sending a kid to school undermines his intelligence and judgment.

Common human experience in all such cases begs that the notion of individual responsibility be viewed and applied in a humane, flexible manner, and not as an isolated, unsympathetic notion trapped in a bubble to rigid ideals. Your views lean more towards latter and not the former. Human existance is far too complicated to be governed by such rigid ideals.

zeemax (#166)

When you have nothing intelligent to say, you declare the other person a non-Muslim and bail out. You are pulling a typical mullah on me here.

Similar is the case with your cousin echoboom. I addressed the issue of “jihad” that he raised against Ahmadi-Muslims. He is ignoring the issue and is now merely posting propaganda against Ahmadis.

And such is the travesty of the ummah. It is sad, but true.

sattar2: Perhaps I can better explain myself by using a ``religious model of individual actions`` as follows:

1. Understanding: All human action starts with developing an understanding of a given situation, and thus determining what is right and wrong. Responsibility for ensuring this understanding is as follows:

Individual before God: Yes
Individual before man-made institutions (community, religious organizations, state): No

2. Action: Take action (or take no action) as appropriate. Responsibility:

Individual before God: Yes
Individual before man-made institutions: Yes

Thus, for both religious people and non-religious people, the state has no business trying to impose a ``thought police``, and religious organizations have no business trying to ``help`` the individual.

You say I am being rigid in emphasizing individual responsibility. That is for good reasons:

1. Individual Liberty vs Slavery: There are too many people who think it is their business to impose their viewpoints on others. Not discuss them, not present them - but to impose them. The maulvi will give his friday sermon to air his views as if he speaks the word of God - when in fact he has not received any such authority from God. Indeed, the Quran says in a number of places that the Holy Prophet himself is a messenger of God, and compliance with the message is not his concern. The message of Islam liberates the individual while placing the responsibility on him to act in a mature manner. Those who seek to make a living out of Islam try to impose their views on society.

2. Character Building: Individual responsbility not only frees the individual from mental slavery, it also makes him a more useful member of society. They way message of Islam has been distorted in Pakistan, the national character has been weakened rather than strengthened. The maulvi has shown the ``easy way out`` - say your prayers, do the hajj, and all your sins are washed away. You know and I know that is the truth in Pakistan for millions of people. This is why Pakistan is a follower, rather than a leader, in all aspects of constructive human endeavor in the world today. A part of the problem, rather than a part of the solution.